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=> Off Topic Discussions => Topic started by: zander on September 04, 2013, 08:08:36 PM
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I've been checking this site on and off and was wondering whether I should be surprised that the obvious elephant in the room hasn't been mentioned?
Syria! What are people thinking?
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i am thinking, may God's will be done.
claudia
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i am thinking, may God's will be done.
claudia
Bahaha. Im with claudia.
I'd hardly consider this the elephant in the room rumors of wars and wars have been happebing since the dawn of time. There is nothing new under the sun. The Lord will have His way.
Alex
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If I may chime in I believe Zander may be worried about the prophecy of Damascas being no more that is in Isaiah (if my memory serves me right) , but I am in line with everyone else, Gods will be done!
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i am thinking, may God's will be done.
claudia
Bahaha. Im with claudia.
I'd hardly consider this the elephant in the room rumors of wars and wars have been happebing since the dawn of time. There is nothing new under the son. The Lord will have His way.
Alex
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
If you place the emphasis on the hearing it gets contemporary.
120 years ago it took months for news from Europe to reach the USA. Now it's instant.
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i am thinking, may God's will be done.
claudia
Bahaha. Im with claudia.
I'd hardly consider this the elephant in the room rumors of wars and wars have been happebing since the dawn of time. There is nothing new under the son. The Lord will have His way.
Alex
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
If you place the emphasis on the hearing it gets contemporary.
120 years ago it took months for news from Europe to reach the USA. Now it's instant.
It's interesting that the word "rumors" in Greek (akoas) also means "hearing"...
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i am thinking, may God's will be done.
claudia
Bahaha. Im with claudia.
I'd hardly consider this the elephant in the room rumors of wars and wars have been happebing since the dawn of time. There is nothing new under the son. The Lord will have His way.
Alex
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
If you place the emphasis on the hearing it gets contemporary.
120 years ago it took months for news from Europe to reach the USA. Now it's instant.
Excellent Point Dennis! I hadn't thought of it in that sense. We do get word of wars and rumours of wars at an exponentially accelerated rate now a days.
I still maintain, these things are nothing new, well... other than the hearing them more quickly part, that is! ;) :D :D
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Today a relative was telling me how worry and sad she was about this happenings, I listen for a while and since I didn't wanted to get deep into the subject since I had to go in ten minutes, she thought I was judging her as naive or something like that. So now I had to explain myself in 7min. to avoid being misunderstood. This where my points on what I said:
-This happenings also make me sad, but not surprised, people and governments have been making weak things because they have a weak heart from the beginning of times, the thing is just that in certain times of history there is more time and opportunity for certain evils to be manifested.
- News from other far away places sometimes magnify, either the good ones or the bad ones. I am not saying it can't be as bad as the journalist inform us, but truth is that big generalizations and simplifications are prone to happen. Plus, people tent to have very different resistance to suffering and very different 'life perceptions'.
- I said that I have two choices: One, to believe that everything is chaotic, that God can't do anything about it, that He is really not in control and that all the suffering of people is for no worth purpose. Or:
That God is in control, and he desire, want, and is able to bring a worth outcome in due time for all the suffering that is happening on this very short life of us. That all evil is very little in God sight in comparison with all the good that is waiting for Everybody. I said that I have this hope, and that this is why I see this situations with such a different context from the majority.
I am sure she still believes more what the pastor says than what I say, but hopefully at least she no longer thought that I was judging her, or not caring...
ps. For the ones that doesn't know me; I wasn't talking with my wife, since I am not married-yet...
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It's puzzled me for a long time how one can read this verse and think that any war or the rumour of any war is a sign of the end. And not just wars, but:
Mat 24:6 But you are going to hear of wars and rumors of wars. See, do not be terrified. For all things must take place, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation will be raised against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there will be famines and plagues and earthquakes against many places.
Mat 24:8 But all these are a beginning of throes.
Wars, rumours of wars, famines, plagues, earthquakes: These things must take place (Dave's paraphrase: These things are par for the course). They are not the end, the hearing of them is not the end. They are instead the "beginning" of sorrows, and have been for generations. Keep reading and you'll see what Scripture says about what happens before the end. And as Ray taught, that TOO has been happening for generations. Was, is, and will be.
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I still maintain, these things are nothing new
The scripture does not say anything about new wars, etc. There have always been wars and rumors of wars.
Until recently people only knew about wars in their own backyard and never heard about a war on the other side of the planet.
Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
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i am thinking, may God's will be done.
claudia
In a parallel thread, Gregorydc quite righty noted that the wars in the M.East have been going on since Genesis, and it is obvious that our prayers to the contrary will not change God's will for the region. Still, I feel guilty about it.
Since we are the Israel of God, I was wondering if the nation of Israel was ever instructed by God to pray for peace in their region, which probably was their known world then. Clearly the constant warring affected Israel of old and we have David breathing vengence upon them all.
Moises G. expressed some nice sentiments. I think the test would be to hold to the same whatever situation we find ourselves in. There but for the grace of God, go I
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What does Jesus have to say? Let's see.
"...I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours." John 17:9
Since Jesus didn't pray for the world, neither do I. However, the majority do not follow or believe Jesus. They worship God how they choose. So they go about praying for World Peace, World Hunger, and most important of all to these heathen---Love, Love, Love for all, regardless of their ways.
Jesus never prayed for "our brave boys fighting in the Roman Legions."
Jesus also said those "who take the sword will die by the sword."
Let the dead bury the dead. At this time, Jesus is saving His Elect. That's why He tells us "Come out of her My people." Only the Elect hear His voice. The Many listen to Satan and his religious teachers of this world.
Jesus is not going to save the World, the Many, until the next age, after His return.
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In a parallel thread, Gregorydc quite rightly noted that the wars in the M.East have been going on since Genesis, and it is obvious that our prayers to the contrary will not change God's will for the region. Still, I feel guilty about it.
Why do you feel guilty, Loretta? To feel guilty, one must feel they are culpable or responsible for some wrongdoing. Perhaps you are not feeling guilty, but conflicted. Could it be that your desire for peace in the region is causing you to question God's will?
Just a thought...
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Hey, just come back. It's just interesting to hear people's views. I am not really basing any scriptural reference to anything, i am just curious as this could get pretty messy. Hey, what do i know?
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Wars have been fought throughout history. This mess in Syria who's a proxy state of Iran who's right around the corner from having nukes and also a main allied of Russia who does have nukes. Not to mention Israel who is surrounded by enemies who will stop at nothing including the use of chemical, biological even nukes in order to wipe the state off the face of the earth. Oh ya Israel is a non declared nuke power. So yes war and rumors of wars have been with mankind from the beginning of time, but not until the 20Th century the possibility of extinction of life on earth was possible by war. One more thing, no matter what happens, Gods Will will be done.
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Since Jesus didn't pray for the world, neither do I.
Ok, so that's taken care of half my guilt! :)
You hit the nail on the head Nathan, when you said that I am probably questioning God's will. When life gets too comfortable, we become fearful, perhaps even fearful of God's will. Raised in Christendom we come to expect only good things from God.
Job 2:10 What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?
Seems like there is much more renewing of the mind, yet to be done!
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
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Since years I go I have a tendency to see myself surviving (wherever I go) on one apocalyptic scenario of spiritually starving people and war. What is happening on the spiritual realm is million times worst that what we see on the news. And many times what you see with your physical eyes on the physical realm can be able to distract you big time, from focusing in your daily spiritual challenges.
I must say that living like this, is kind of exciting, you just never get bored... You are like a warrior fighting wrong ideologies while trying to keep the conscience clean.
I don't need video games or movies anymore, ...I just have enough entertainment with my own mind :)
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I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours." John 17:9
Jesus was a peacefull loving person. Never advocated violence.
Jesus also said those "who take the sword will die by the sword, no doubt. Jesus prayed for HIS Elite.You state Jesus never prayed for the roman soldiers. Here's a few questions. So even though Jesus prayed for His Elite, Jesus did not pray for His Emmies? For The Romans that beaten inches of His life? Romans that striped Him then nailed Him to a tree? The high priest that are the ones who hated Jesus so much they pushed for His arrest and death. His Jewish brothers. You right on Jesus didn't pray for the roman soldiers to kill many people. Even though we do know Jesus prayed to His Father to forgive those. I believe Jesus prayed for all mankind past,present and future, i do not know of any scripture that tells of this, If you know of a few let me know. This could be a learning period for me.
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I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours." John 17:9
Jesus was a peacefull loving person. Never advocated violence.
Jesus also said those "who take the sword will die by the sword, no doubt. Jesus prayed for HIS Elite.You state Jesus never prayed for the roman soldiers. Here's a few questions. So even though Jesus prayed for His Elite, Jesus did not pray for His Emmies? For The Romans that beaten inches of His life? Romans that striped Him then nailed Him to a tree? The high priest that are the ones who hated Jesus so much they pushed for His arrest and death. His Jewish brothers. You right on Jesus didn't pray for the roman soldiers to kill many people. Even though we do know Jesus prayed to His Father to forgive those. I believe Jesus prayed for all mankind past,present and future, i do not know of any scripture that tells of this, If you know of a few let me know. This could be a learning period for me.
There is a good reason you "do not know of any scripture that tells of this."
http://bible-truths.com/praying.htm A little study time would help.
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Jesus prayed for HIS Elite.You state Jesus never prayed for the roman soldiers. Here's a few questions. So even though Jesus prayed for His Elite, Jesus did not pray for His Emmies?
Darren,
I know this is off subject, but why do you prefer using the term God's Elite instead of God's Elect or Chosen? I'm just not familiar with this word being used to describe those who will be in the 1st resurrection.
René
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"There but for the grace of God go I."
Remember, God could have made any of us anyone else and put us in any situation at any time.
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Yes indeed. So true.
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What does Jesus have to say? Let's see.
"...I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours." John 17:9
Since Jesus didn't pray for the world, neither do I. However, the majority do not follow or believe Jesus. They worship God how they choose. So they go about praying for World Peace, World Hunger, and most important of all to these heathen---Love, Love, Love for all, regardless of their ways.
Jesus never prayed for "our brave boys fighting in the Roman Legions."
Jesus also said those "who take the sword will die by the sword."
Let the dead bury the dead. At this time, Jesus is saving His Elect. That's why He tells us "Come out of her My people." Only the Elect hear His voice. The Many listen to Satan and his religious teachers of this world.
Jesus is not going to save the World, the Many, until the next age, after His return.
Then, what about 1 Timothy 2.1-3: First of all, I encourage you to make petitions, prayers, intercessions, and prayers of thanks for all people, 2 for rulers, and for everyone who has authority over us. Pray for these people so that we can have a quiet and peaceful life always lived in a godly and reverent way. 3 This is good and pleases God our Savior. ???
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What does Jesus have to say? Let's see.
"...I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours." John 17:9
Since Jesus didn't pray for the world, neither do I. However, the majority do not follow or believe Jesus. They worship God how they choose. So they go about praying for World Peace, World Hunger, and most important of all to these heathen---Love, Love, Love for all, regardless of their ways.
Jesus never prayed for "our brave boys fighting in the Roman Legions."
Jesus also said those "who take the sword will die by the sword."
Let the dead bury the dead. At this time, Jesus is saving His Elect. That's why He tells us "Come out of her My people." Only the Elect hear His voice. The Many listen to Satan and his religious teachers of this world.
Jesus is not going to save the World, the Many, until the next age, after His return.
Then, what about 1 Timothy 2.1-3: First of all, I encourage you to make petitions, prayers, intercessions, and prayers of thanks for all people, 2 for rulers, and for everyone who has authority over us. Pray for these people so that we can have a quiet and peaceful life always lived in a godly and reverent way. 3 This is good and pleases God our Savior. ???
It does no good to quote Scripture unless you can understand and discern the meaning, which comes by the Spirit of God.
As Ray was fond of saying, "you have to read all the words".
I highlighted the answer to your question in dark letters in that Scripture. The reason we are asked to pray for rulers is so "WE", the Elect, can live a quiet and peaceful life in a Godly and reverent way.
All the rulers in this world, just like all the religions and other systems are of their father Satan, the prince of the power of the air, and ruler over the children of disobedience. We need God's help to protect us from their evil and stupid decisions.
The Scriptures do not contradict. Jesus did not pray for this world. Jesus prayed for His chosen Elect. The world will have their time of salvation in the age to come, after the Return of the Great King.
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The question though is "Are we certain we're the Elect?"
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To me it is not a question of certainty, but one of a living and very real hope. If we doubt at every turn, where is the faith? Paul called this hope we have like a race.
1Cor 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it.
We should take on the race with all we've got, and strive like Jesus said to enter the "narrow gate."
Luke 13:23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?"
And He said to them,
v. 24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
The Spirit of Christ indwelling should become apparent to us. If your perspective on life is being changed from world mindedness, if your attitude is changed towards mercy and kindness to others, you should know/feel that... you should sense a difference in yourself and over time as you look back you can see how you have changed. It is not an arrogant certainty, because that could even fuel our carnality... but it is very real, a living hope in Christ.
Heb 6:17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath,
v. 18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.
v. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil,
v. 10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
v. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end,
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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It does no good to quote Scripture unless you can understand and discern the meaning, which comes by the Spirit of God.
I stand chided, even though I didn't quote scripture to rebutt but to learn what any of you knew about it. Without quoting scripture this time, I remember Ray wrote about Jesus' last prayer on the cross. Ray was trying to show that the Father forgave ALL those involved in the crucifixion of Christ. According to Ray, we all had a part in the Lord's death.
But as you clarified above, Jesus NEVER prayed for the whole world. Therefore, I must conclude that those Jesus prayed for, because they didn't know what they were doing, were some of the elect that eventually came to believe in Jesus.
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This has bothered me too - dying TO Christ and dying FOR Christ - are so very different - and I don't care if it's the Pope or Bob Geldof praying or actively doing something to bring the plight of the poor and the oppressed to public attention - blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God
Maybe being an Elect of God requires you to physically die also?
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"God" and "righteousness" are on all sides. Even "sides" which lay no claim to God, lay claim to Righteousness and let other's claim God on their behalf. How can this be? A house divided against itself cannot stand.
The carnal mind really only has two choices: 1. Return evil for evil and call it good. 2. Find some reason to refrain from returning evil for evil and call that good. What a woeful selection.
The option of returning good for evil is not open to them. I'm not sure how it is even open to me in all cases, not being one who has to make these large world-scale decisions--at least not yet. But I do believe that the Lord God intends evil for good, though it takes time for His plans to come to pass.
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well said - what choices we have - very little - the root of it all is money - and the love and enslavement of it all - bring down the strongman - and then what do we have? a house divided against itself cannot stand - we are so far from the bond of unity that should or does exist between us all - rooting out the evil in my opinion is stopping the money machine of greed that makes war happen - just me Dave venting :)
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Maybe being an Elect of God requires you to physically die also?
Not true. The elect that are alive at Christ's coming, who are changed in the twinkling of an eye, certainly are not dead physically.
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How can I being someone who by Grace has been given this time to examine the evidence in the scriptures (and relevant personal freedom) be thinking I am selected to know these truths?
No - even an elect? I think we fool ourselves thinking because we have this knowledge and exposure that we are the generation - hey if I walk on passed the brother that is beaten down by robbers - I am a hypocrite
we are so privileged to not have experienced real hardships - yes personal ones we all endure
Jesus came to do His Father's work - which was making the law spiritual - last I looked - I was still a (wo)man
what I learn about being spiritual is in my closet - what I take to the world is an advocate of a higher law - this does not make me a pacifist
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An after thought - can you imagine if Peter had taken the Gospel east and not west?
At least in the east they acknowledge there was a sovereign power - be it their years of intimidation and over lording - but still a mindset
For me as a Westerner - I still have to learn to share :)
love you all
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Hi theophilus,
1Tim 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,
v. 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.
This Scripture that you brought forward to be considered cannot be denied as to what it is saying. It is true Christ said He did not pray for the world, and we do understand that this age is what it is and will not change. But what is being said in 1st Timothy is concerning the believers and how they live in this age. Now there is no need to pray for 'world' peace or even peace in the middle east to come in this age, that will only happen when Christ returns in the next age.
But if you think back to the time of the kings of Israel there were some whom God called righteous and under their rule the people prospered and then there were those wicked kings and under those the people suffered. So what I think this Scripture is saying is we can pray for individuals that make decisions that effect us and our families.
I have no interest in getting involved in politics to any degree, I don't think that means pray for the nature of this world's government to change. But when we know about people in positions that make decisions that can directly effect the quiet and peace of our lives, well of course it is good to pray about that.
Even Ray said God inspires people to pray when He intends to bless or do favors for us. I can see how in His stirring us to pray about something He intends to do thatit would help us come to trust and seek God even more. He wants us to turn to Him with all of our concerns and needs. So I do think praying for those "kings and all who are in authority" when they can directly effect us is a good thing to do.
http://bible-truths.com/praying.htm --------------
No man has ever in the history of the world received an answer to a prayer for something from God that God did not already have in His plan to give him. People hate the very thought of a God Who is totally and completely Sovereign, and the reason is simple. If God is Sovereign, then man has no free will that can thwart the sovereign foreknowledge of God. God cannot know for certain a future event if mankind possesses a power that can thwart God’s perfect foreknowledge. Not even most of the greatest minds in theology have thought this apparent enigma through. Had they given sufficient thought to this Truth of God’s Word they would not be teaching such a plethora of unscriptural and damnable heresies.
When God wants to answer someone’s prayer, the first thing He will always do is inspire (cause) that person TO PRAY. How can God answer a "prayer" if someone doesn’t "pray?" God can bless us and do favors for us, but God cannot answer our prayers, if we don’t pray. That is why I get excited when I feel inspired to pray, as I am encouraged that God is getting ready to bless or favor me in some way.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Just to add my 2 cents in; just think about the many so call "wars" that are going on in many countries and nations that we don't even hear about. One example is on the content of Africa. Many places on that content are at peace, but there are many places that are at war at this very moment, and we don't hear about it too often. Being of African American decent, and try to study the things there, there are some people who I know who live there and often I hear some news of what is going on, but it not reported in the U S news. Also in other nations, and on other contents, many so call "wars" are going on at this very moment, but we must trust in the words of Jesus when He said, "When we hear of these things, be not"alarmed", for it must needs happen,-But not yet is the end" For there will arise- Nation against nation, And kingdom against kingdom. Just wanted to add, as I said my "2 cents" in. Tim
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"Thy Kingdom come." If we pray for peace, are we not praying for His Kingdom of Peace to grow amongst us? When we pray for peace and wisdom to the leaders, we are not praying for the world, but for the world to be changed.
God bless you,
Eirik
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Well said Kat.
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I must add, that I am actually slightly confounded on this matter.
Can someone quote me ray's writting on where He explains Jesus did not pray for the world? I remember slightly the verse in my head along the lines of "I pray not for the world but I pray for them for they are yours Father..." or something along those lines. However, I'm interested in seeing further explaining on this matter. I have read the praying article, did I have my blinders on?
Also, The verse in timothy is rather strange. Is the emphasis of it all on the fact that we are to pray for the world not that the evil that must be, passes away, but that so the evil it gives rise to does not taint our own?
I've read everything everyone had to say here. This is a fascinating discussion.
I certainly do pray for my brothers and sisters in Christ, both known to me and unknown. I can't remember the last time I prayed for peace in the middle east, our politicians, this country etc... because I always reduced it down to "Its in God's hands and He will do as He plans," and "which one of you by worrying can add another minute to your lives?" So I try and have peace in all these things that occur. I pray for myself and my family as well, my loved ones though some may not chosen, converted, have the mind of Christ etc... I also try and give thanks as often as I can for everything the Lord has blessed me with. So again... should I be praying for my local elected officials? Should I be praying for the governor of california? I never thought I needed to....
Interesting topic, I wish I had a bit more clarity on this because up until today I thought I was praying the way I should. Always "IN ACCORDANCE WITH WHAT MUST BE."
Alex
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I must add, that I am actually slightly confounded on this matter.
Can someone quote me ray's writting on where He explains Jesus did not pray for the world? I remember slightly the verse in my head along the lines of "I pray not for the world but I pray for them for they are yours Father..." or something along those lines. However, I'm interested in seeing further explaining on this matter. I have read the praying article, did I have my blinders on?
Also, The verse in timothy is rather strange. Is the emphasis of it all on the fact that we are to pray for the world not that the evil that must be, passes away, but that so the evil it gives rise to does not taint our own?
I've read everything everyone had to say here. This is a fascinating discussion.
I certainly do pray for my brothers and sisters in Christ, both known to me and unknown. I can't remember the last time I prayed for peace in the middle east, our politicians, this country etc... because I always reduced it down to "Its in God's hands and He will do as He plans," and "which one of you by worrying can add another minute to your lives?" So I try and have peace in all these things that occur. I pray for myself and my family as well, my loved ones though some may not chosen, converted, have the mind of Christ etc... I also try and give thanks as often as I can for everything the Lord has blessed me with. So again... should I be praying for my local elected officials? Should I be praying for the governor of california? I never thought I needed to....
Interesting topic, I wish I had a bit more clarity on this because up until today I thought I was praying the way I should. Always "IN ACCORDANCE WITH WHAT MUST BE."
Alex
Here you go.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1711.0.html
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Alex,
Here is an email exchange with Ray - I believe it will shed some light on the topic of "not praying for the world".
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1348.msg11593.html#msg11593
Dearest Ray,
You are a "ray" of light! Please would you tell me what Jesus could have meant in John 17:9 where He excluded the world in His prayer. Who did he mean to be excluded?
Thank you & bless you
Deborah
Dear Deborah:
Good question.
The "world" represents two entities in Scripture: [1] The Church, Judaism, the Whore, Mystery Babylon the Great, and [2] The social system of the nations in general.
Jesus referred to both in John's Gospel account:
"...but be of good cheer; I have overcome the WORLD" (John 16:33). What "world?" Did He overcome China? Japan? Indonesia? No, Jesus overcame the world of Judaism--"He came unto His own [the Jews] but they received Him NOT," and hence He had to overcome them all the days of his earthly ministry.
But in John 17:24 we read, "...for You loved Me before the foundation of the WORLD" is speaking of the whole "kosmos"--the whole system of world governments.
Jesus prayed for NEITHER of these two "worlds," as their destiny is solidly fixed by God's divine providence, and therefore prayer would be of no value. Jesus does not pray that His Father's Prophecies should NOT come to pass, and neither do God's Elect pray such nonsense as is parroted daily over the air waves "pray for world peace." Nonsense. There will be no world peace--God has already decreed it.
God be with you,
Ray
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Hello everyone,
Matthew 5:44 But I tell you this: Love your enemies, and PRAY FOR THOSE WHO PERSECUTE YOU.
Luke 6:27-28: "But I tell everyone who is listening: Love your enemies. Be kind to those who hate you. 28 Bless those who curse you. PRAY FOR THOSE WHO INSULT YOU."
Given the above two verses and the verses about the elect praying for men in authority, I think that we are to pray for a very small SUBSET OF THE WORLD on TWO occasions.
One is to pray for men of authority so that the elect can live in peace (no ongoing persecution), and once persecution starts, one is to pray SPECIFICALLY for those who are persecuting us.
One thing I'm not very clear about is what we should be praying about on behalf of those persecuting us. Should we pray for them to stop their persecution, their conversion or to stop God's wrath from falling on them? It seems to me that our prayer is to stop God's wrath to fall upon them. (Genesis 12.3: "whoever curses you I will curse.")
What do you guys think?
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One thing I'm not very clear about is what we should be praying about on behalf of those persecuting us. Should we pray for them to stop their persecution, their conversion or to stop God's wrath from falling on them? It seems to me that our prayer is to stop God's wrath to fall upon them. (Genesis 12.3: "whoever curses you I will curse.")
What do you guys think?
Father forgive me my sins as I forgive those that sin against me.
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One thing I'm not very clear about is what we should be praying about on behalf of those persecuting us. Should we pray for them to stop their persecution, their conversion or to stop God's wrath from falling on them? It seems to me that our prayer is to stop God's wrath to fall upon them. (Genesis 12.3: "whoever curses you I will curse.")
What do you guys think?
Hi theophilus,
Your questions have made me think on these things and now I look on them in a some what different way. When we are persecuted there is a reason for it, a lesson, to humble us or something... the person afflicting the suffering would be a vessel of dishonor, so that is part the evil experience for us and them. God alone determines when one is to receive conversion and only a very few in this age, so it may be in the next age under the wrath of God that our persecuter may be saved or if it turns out to be in this age and so be it. But I personally do not pray for God to save somebody now and His correction/judgment/wrath whenever it is will be exactly as a person needs.
I would think that we could pray for God to help us understand the lesson of the persecution and pray that He would also help the person persecuting us to see the error of their way. Well that's how I'm thinking about this right now anyway.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thank you Nathan and Kat for your input. God bless you both.
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As an example, God raised up kings to execute judgement on His people, then executed judgement on the kings he raised up. Jesus is Lord. Even God's enemies are HIS. One day He will have put all His enemies under His feet, starting with the carnal mind of those He has been choosing "now".
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Kat wins again. :)
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my bad Rene, elect.
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Why pray at all. I mean whatever happens in Syria or any country Its Gods Will and it will be done no matter how hard and ernest we pray. God knows the end before the begining. God does not change His mind. So as i stated before it can not hurt for mankind to pray for the world, the people in it or peace. At the end of the day what does it matter, to pray or not to pray, this is the question i ask of thee.
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Why pray at all. I mean whatever happens in Syria or any country Its Gods Will and it will be done no matter how hard and ernest we pray. God knows the end before the begining. God does not change His mind. So as i stated before it can not hurt for mankind to pray for the world, the people in it or peace. At the end of the day what does it matter, to pray or not to pray, this is the question i ask of thee.
Hi Darren, I think prayer is always beneficial for us, it is our conscience intent to communicate with God. If anything is of concern then we should reach out to God and speak of it, He will answer. He won't change His plans, but He can comfort our worries, and He can help us to understand better. It is an attitude of trusting in Him, to turn to God in prayer with everything, to call upon "Abba, Father."
Psa 62:8 Trust in Him at all times, you people;
Pour out your heart before Him;
God is a refuge for us.Selah
Psa 73:28 But it is good for me to draw near to God;
I have put my trust in the Lord GOD,
That I may declare all Your works.
Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
Pro 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD,
But the prayer of the upright is His delight.
Eph 6:18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints--
Jer 29:13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Php 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
Isa 65:24 "It shall come to pass
That before they call, I will answer;
And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
1Th 5:16 Rejoice always,
v. 17 pray without ceasing,
v. 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
Just a few verses of encouragement :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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As an example, God raised up kings to execute judgement on His people, then executed judgement on the kings he raised up. Jesus is Lord. Even God's enemies are HIS. One day He will have put all His enemies under His feet, starting with the carnal mind of those He has been choosing "now".
Thanks for that, Dave. As you recently posted, we seem to have come some way in our threads.
I was researching the topic "wars" and came upon this old thread "Abu Musab al-Zarqawi Killed in Iraq". I was blown away by the postings that argued political and religious viewpoints and came away feeling confused. A considerable amount of latitude was given in that discussion.
He won't change His plans, but He can comfort our worries, and He can help us to understand better. It is an attitude of trusting in Him, to turn to God in prayer with everything, to call upon "Abba, Father.
Kat, thank you for your comment which encourages me. :D
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Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Php 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
It doesn't make sense to me to pray as much as Paul exhorts us to and to make our requests known to God if He is not gonna answer NOT EVEN ONE OF THEM!
The Lord God has already decided what must happen. In my opinion, God has decided our needs, problems, sicknesses. These are one side of the coin. The other side of the coin, which God has also decided beforehand, is our prayers for these needs, problems and sicknesses and His answer to our prayers or His lack of answer.
He has decided beforehand which of our requests He is to grant. But I do not believe that He will not answer ANY of our requests. He has also determined, IMO, whether we should pray or not. If we find ourselves praying for anything, God determined that. If we find ourselves not praying, He has also determined that.
I think it's more profitable to pray than not to pray, like Kat was saying. I think it's about developing a dependence and trust in our Heavenly Father.
As a personal testimony, God healed me of hepatitis when I was a teenager. So, I believe that God answers prayer when it's in accordance with what must be. Thank God that the healing of hepatitis was in accordance with what had to be. I wasn't privy to this knowledge, but God was.
Roger.
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On the contrary, God answers every prayer made to Him.
Every one of my prayers is answered by God, once I learned how to pray.
Jesus prayed that the Father would remove the suffering He was destined to suffer. But the Father said NO.
Jesus received an answer to His prayer and that answer was NO. Jesus didn't go to a pity party or blame God or complain that it just wasn't fair that He had to suffer since He had done no wrong.
Instead, Jesus prayed that the Father's will be done.
I learned from Jesus how to pray. I only pray the same prayer over and over again. Your (the Father's) will be done. I have had a 100% success rate for all my prayers once I got the message.
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My point excactly J.F.K. God;s Will is gonna be done. We humans pray for many, many differents things. As you rightly spoken God will answere it just might not be what you would expect the out come to be. unless we understand that we must only pray that His Will is done.
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"As a personal testimony, God healed me of hepatitis when I was a teenager. So, I believe that God answers prayer when it's in accordance with what must be. Thank God that the healing of hepatitis was in accordance with what had to be. I wasn't privy to this knowledge, but God was."
roger's statement of faith above, is evidence that "what must be" and "what had to be" are most surely God's will being done. and roger admits he wasn't privy to the knowledge that his hepatitis would be gone. healed. i just see this as him praying in faith. by the faith God graced him with. he thanks God because God WAS privy to the knowledge that the hepatitis would be healed. we are called to faithful prayer. even Jesus Christ first mentioned in prayer to His Father, may the cup be removed, before He was to be taken as a prisoner. and He knew that He was going to die on the cross, with much physical suffering and pain. before He asked His Father to remove the cup of suffering from the hard physical pain his physical human body was going to endure before He got to that cross. our Saviour knew, yet He still asked for relief from suffering such physical pain.
our Father Creator wants His children to talk to Him in conversation. that's what good and loving parents do. and i guarantee, parents desire to hear more from their children that just the same repetitious spew. details, they like details, whether they admit it or not. good and loving parents with children do that. :)
done.
claudia
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Greetings Kat, Psa 73:28 But it is good for me to draw near to God;
I have put my trust in the Lord GOD,
That I may declare all Your works.
I take it that first God drags us to Him. We have no say so in this matter. Unless were talking already being dragged to The Lord, then I totally understand Psa 73:28 Kat, here is your word to me: Darren, I think prayer is always beneficial for us, it is our conscience intent to communicate with God. If anything is of concern then we should reach out to God and speak of it, He will answer. He won't change His plans, but He can comfort our worries, and He can help us to understand better. It is an attitude of trusting in Him, to turn to God in prayer with everything, to call upon "Abba, Father."Lord God. On this point I totally agree. Great point. Thanks. To Ricky, Kat wins again. Really. There is no winners or losers at B.T. Were here to gather knowledge, wisdom and information and try to learn from the the B.T family as best as we can. This is how we grow. So Kat wins again. How is that helpfull. Now if I misunderstood your comment I'm sorry my bad
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Jesus prayed that the Father would remove the suffering He was destined to suffer. But the Father said NO.
I have great difficulty with the idea that Jesus prayed to the Father that he would not have to go to the cross. I know that is what the mainstream church teaches, but does it truly make sense, and does it agree with Scripture, and with the attitude that Jesus displayed up to that point in time?
Using the King James Version, according to the Scripture, as recorded in Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death", and as recorded in Mark 14:34: "My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death".
Is it possible that at that time Jesus was under such spiritual/emotional/physical pressure (whatever the reason) that he was praying to the Father that he would not die right then and there in the Garden, and his Father heard him, hearing him meaning, (as hearing does mean, doesn’t it?), that the Father said YES to his request?
Oatmeal
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So does it make more sense for His Father to answer yes to the prayer to not die in the garden, and then turn around and let's Him suffer and die a horribly painful death on the cross??
Craig
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Jesus prayed that the Father would remove the suffering He was destined to suffer. But the Father said NO.
I have great difficulty with the idea that Jesus prayed to the Father that he would not have to go to the cross. I know that is what the mainstream church teaches, but does it truly make sense, and does it agree with Scripture, and with the attitude that Jesus displayed up to that point in time?
Using the King James Version, according to the Scripture, as recorded in Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death", and as recorded in Mark 14:34: "My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death".
Is it possible that at that time Jesus was under such spiritual/emotional/physical pressure (whatever the reason) that he was praying to the Father that he would not die right then and there in the Garden, and his Father heard him, hearing him meaning, (as hearing does mean, doesn’t it?), that the Father said YES to his request?
Oatmeal
Hi Oatmeal, what that prayer Jesus prayed says to me is that though the plan is absolutely determined, but by the Father. Jesus no doubt understands the will and general direction the Father is going very well, but maybe not all the future details. He did say He did not know the day and hour of His return to earth.
Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
I do not believe Jesus was asking not to die then or later, He knew that all human life depended on that. But He was a physical man and certainly had seen a crucifixion at some point, maybe His request was to "let this cup pass" or that particular way of dying. That it was possible that the Father had already determined He would die another way and that was the reason He asked. But we know He ended the prayer with "nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will." He was willing to do whatever He had to, and He did!
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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We need to understand that there are not two Gods: 1) a Father God and 2) a Jesus God.
God is One the Scriptures teach us. Jesus told us "I and Father are One." Jesus told the Apostles that if they saw Him (Jesus) then they saw the Father. But as Paul said, "not many know this."
The Father and Jesus are two sides of the same coin.
Colossians 1:15 tells us Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God. They are complementary to one another. You cannot have One without the Other. Jesus could not be without His Father, but many do not realize that you could not have a Father without a Son.
Jesus was God in a physical, human form. It makes sense to me that any human in His right mind would not want to suffer as Jesus did.
So Jesus asked that the cup of suffering be removed. The Scriptures clearly tell us that Jesus made that request. But the answer to that prayer was NO.
What many also don't know is that the Father suffered the same as Jesus. The Father was not off somewhere and could not be disturbed. The Father experienced all the pain and suffering through His visible image, which was, and is, and will be---Jesus.
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God is One the Scriptures teach us. Jesus told us "I and Father are One." Jesus told the Apostles that if they saw Him (Jesus) then they saw the Father. But as Paul said, "not many know this."
Okay John, I do know that the Father and Son are One and we too will be One with them some day.
John 17:11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
John 17:22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
One in Spirit and mind to know and do the will of the Father perfectly. But I do not believe that this mean we no longer have our personality, that it will disappear into God or something... I think that is one of the reason there is all this variety of life situations.
The Father and Jesus are two sides of the same coin.
Colossians 1:15 tells us Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God. They are complementary to one another. You cannot have One without the Other. Jesus could not be without His Father, but many do not realize that you could not have a Father without a Son.
God received the title "Father" when He produced a Son, Jesus came into existence when He came forth from God.
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
John 16:27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God.
Yes the Son is the perfect image of the Father, but He is not the Father, but I would say more like an extension of the Father. Jesus only is what the Father wants Him to be, God of this creation.
Here is where Ray spoke of this. This first one is from the 06 conference 'THE FATHER'S WILL?'
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html -------
John 10:30 I and the Father are one!
They’re not the same person, but ‘one,’ there’s a difference. But one, same spirit, same mind, same attitude, same character, same power, same strength, same wisdom, same purpose, they are one.
v
So He is God, but He is not His own Father. Jesus Christ came to reveal the Father; Luke 10:22; John 6:46;
Matt 11:27, Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son will reveal Him.
Nobody knew anything about God the Father, until Jesus Christ revealed Him. The only God that anybody knew was Jesus Christ.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11344.msg98233.html#new -------
Your question may be "short," but it is not specific. I realize how difficult
for most to "pay close attention to all the words."
You ask whether "God our Father" had a beginning? You then suggest that the churches teach that
"God always existed." Which is your question? Did "God the FATHER" have a beginning or did 'GOD"
have a beginning. See the difference? We must make a distinction, as there is a distinction.
The phrase "God the Father" is nowhere found in the O.T. Hebrew Scriptures, only in the N.T. Greek (Ex: John 6:27).
"GOD" (Who is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ) has always existed and did not have a beginning.
However, God as a "FATHER," did have a beginning. One cannot be a father unless He is a "parent," for that
is one of the main definitions of a "father" in the Greek language. God has conceived a Son, and from that
time He became a FATHER with a Child--the beginning of His FAMILY.
God means "placer or disposer." God is not a "placEE" or a "disposEE." God the PlacER was never placED
So: "GOD" as the original supreme Being of the universe did not have a beginning.
But God "THE FATHER" of our Lord Jesus Christ did not become the "FATHER" until He became the Father
and Spiritual Parent of Jesus Christ. Hope this helps clear up your discussion.
God be with you,
Ray
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Hi Kat,
You quote Ray from 2006. But Ray was growing in grace and knowledge. About a year before his death, Ray was beginning to see a deeper understanding of God. In Ray's April 2, 2011 email he stated his prior writings did not impart a full understanding of God. God's Spirit is not static. We all must continue to grow in grace and knowledge.
It amazes me that people believe Jesus was confused and did not know what He was talking about when He commented on His being.
We have two clear Scriptures. Jesus said He and the Father are One. And He stated that if you saw Him (Jesus) you saw the Father. But many feel that they have to explain away Jesus' statements about Himself and the Father.
And of course, there are not just two, but multiple Scriptures that teach us God is One.
But I won't argue. I last spoke on the telephone with Ray in August 2011. I told him I thought many would have a hard time following him where he was going with this enigma of God subject.
I believe like Paul said, "many don't know this." I think this is because a fuller understanding of God will be taught to the Elect in the next age to come. Jesus' main emphasis now is judging and saving the Elect. Fuller understanding comes later.
John
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Hi all,
I find it very interesting that a simple statement by zander at the start of this thread leads to so many comments in many different directions.
truly, there is much spiritual meat in the discussion but I find that often some posts divert from the subject mentioned . Not complaining - just an observation. Love it anyway. :) :)
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Hi all,
I find it very interesting that a simple statement by zander at the start of this thread leads to so many comments in many different directions.
truly, there is much spiritual meat in the discussion but I find that often some posts divert from the subject mentioned . Not complaining - just an observation. Love it anyway. :) :)
And a good observation too. I thought this section was: Just for fun posts and lighthearted banter
I know topics get hijacked but this seems more a General discussion topic.
I thought this section was more of a chill out area but it seems very serious in this one and in others.
I often wonder why this is or does anything go now.
But I do like the discussion like microlink but will complain a bit. Why not stick to the topic or start a new one and put in the right section to start with.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11169.0.html (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11169.0.html)
Perhaps another section is needed in this one for serious topics that are not fun or lighthearted but cover important areas where what we have learnt here can be applied to other areas.
Rhys
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This post did not start out as fun or as lighthearted banter, and with that criteria applied it has been illegal from the start. Perhaps it should have been placed in General Discussions from the beginning.
Did the original topic fit in with the criteria for General Discussions?
Perhaps it is true, as Rhys has observed, that another section is needed. Perhaps we can instead rely on the flexibility and governance of mature moderators.
The observation that this thread has diverted from the original topic is a minor point, that is, it is not important compared to profitable (if it is profitable) discussion. In this thread I think that the original topic was hardly discussed at all and went on quickly to the will of God (which was related) and then on to prayer (which was related) and then on further to prayer (which perhaps wasn’t related) and then on to Gethsemane (which wasn’t related and so I am guilty as charged).
I am not saying that I am the only guilty one.
In regard to my digression from the original discussion: perhaps I was too much of a coward to start a new thread. Or there was another or were other reasons. Or I just slipped up. However, I ask for forgiveness. Am I forgiven?
Even if I had started a new thread the discussion has already digressed.
I would like to make a strong protest however.
The discussion as to whether this discussion has digressed or not, or fits into the category or not of fun and lightheartedness, or whether or not another category of discussion is needed or not, should have I think, strictly speaking, been started as another discussion (post), as such discussion digresses from the original discussion, and does not fit into the category of fun and lightheartedness.
It seems that those who are protesting are not following their own protests.
Please don’t think that I am being entirely serious. I am trying to fit in with the category of fun and lightheartedness. But then I have digressed from the original topic. At least I am half right.
Am I?
Oatmeal
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Hi Oatmeal and Rhys,
I know 'Off Topics' is used for many things other than it's stated purpose, but I think a lot of people use it for any topic that is off from or not a topic that Ray spoke on. So I guess we just let it stay, I mean sometimes it's difficult to figure where something 'should' go, not to mention that the discussion changes as it goes along.
Yes yes many topics do divert off of the original question, but I kind of look at it as mini discussions within a topic and they can produce good fruit for thought. I think we just have to go with the flow sometimes and let things develop as they will.
John, I know that Ray had questions about the God enigma there at the end... but we can not just sweep away foundational truths so easily. To me those excerpts I posted were rock solid with the Scripture.
That the Father and Son are One is without question, but it is a single aspect of the whole. It is far too simplistic to say they were one and the same being in every way, that does not match up with many things Christ said.
Psa 119:160 The sum of thy word, is truth
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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In order to bring this back to a fun and lighthearted humorous topic, here goes:
"The peacemaker is Vladimir Putin. He is going to help us secure the chemical weapons, because if there is one thing you can trust Putin with, it's poison. " –Bill Maher
"The way it's going to work is Assad is going to turn over his chemical weapons to Russia, who will then of course sell them to China, who will repackage them as off-brand roach spray, and you can get them at the 99 cent store." –Bill Maher
"It's not that easy to go and secure all these chemical weapons. For one thing, the Syrians have been scattering stockpiles of the chemical weapons all over. They've even got some stored here in the U.S. It's called Monsanto." –Bill Maher
"If The Pres really wanted to sell us on Syria, he should have taken a page from the people selling us Siri. Pushing an iPhone and a war are a lot alike. You just say that the new one is smaller, cheaper and faster and people will buy it. Even though they've already got one and they're still paying off the previous model." –Stephen Colbert
"Crisis averted. Now Congress suspends its vote on a military strike, the U.N. secures Assad's chemical stockpile, and the Syrian people can go back to being killed with conventional methods. Everybody wins." –Stephen Colbert
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...I would like to make a strong protest however.
The discussion as to whether this discussion has digressed or not, or fits into the category or not of fun and lightheartedness, or whether or not another category of discussion is needed or not, should have I think, strictly speaking, been started as another discussion (post), as such discussion digresses from the original discussion, and does not fit into the category of fun and lightheartedness.
It seems that those who are protesting are not following their own protests.
Please don’t think that I am being entirely serious. I am trying to fit in with the category of fun and lightheartedness. But then I have digressed from the original topic. At least I am half right.
a good bowl of oatmeal is always good for the soul. :) your statements above made me laugh out loud, and it is early in the morning here and i am pretty sure all my neighbors are asleep. i just wanted to say i appreciate the architecture of your post response causing it to fit neatly in the fun and lighthearted character of this section of the forum.
claudia