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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: hillsbororiver on June 04, 2009, 08:33:45 PM
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Perhaps the three most profound things I have learned to believe and consistently think about (since I stumbled onto Bible-Truths) is the falling away (from our first Love), recognizing the "beast within," and having real (not feigned) mercy for all of our brethren, aren't these prerequisites for growing in His Spirit?
We might gain knowledge without actually living it but we will not gain wisdom.
I spent over 30 years believing (when I happened to be thinking about it) that I needed to stay tuned to the evening news to see when the false prophet, the beast, etc. would be revealed, in other words looking outward for signs and wonders that would signify the last days.
Like some others here I also have experienced from time to time a feeling of being in tune with Him, having my eyes and ears ratcheted opened another notch, feeling a genuine love for my sisters and brothers and a sense of peace that all is well in the walk, that I am on the right path.....
Then the clarity clouds a bit, there is too much noise encompassing me to hear His voice as distinctly as before and my patience dissipates in regard to dealing with people.
It is like walking through the woods where the trail is cleared and easy to follow for a time and then you encounter some rather steep hills, moving past that the way is clear with a pleasant view until the path leads to a mucky swamp full of scorpions, snakes and mud 2 feet deep, suddenly there is a chill in the air and night is about to fall. Getting through this ordeal and taking a rest from the activity morning comes and you see the path continues on high and dry ground in a straight, defined line, it is sunny, warm and life is good. Then as day becomes evening there is a sharp bend in the path, to the left is a cliff that drops 100 feet straight down and on the right are swirling waters splashing on jagged rocks, up ahead you can see the brush and fallen trees that you soon will be dealing with. How much longer must these obstacles be overcome, when will we finally get to our destination?
I think all of us go through these feelings from time to time, this journey is not a flat line experience, there are many peaks and valleys and I really can't wait until we all are truly transformed incorruptible, but patience must be learned, faith must be more fully developed and love must be in our core being as we continue to be refined, being created in His image.
Easier said than experienced! ;)
The following is from the Lake of Fire Part XIV ("The Beast Within");
THE DAY OF THE LORD AND II THESSALONIANS II
Most of us not unlike the Thessalonians of Paul’s day are aware of a prophetic time spoken by the prophets known as "The Day of the Lord." The Thessalonians knew somewhat of this day and what it portended, as Paul spoke to them earlier about it. Now he has to tell them in this second epistle,
"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that THE DAY OF CHRIST is at hand" (II Thes. 2:2).
Never forget that Jesus Christ IS ‘The LORD,’ and so the Day of Christ and the Day of the Lord both represent the Son of God.
Notice what Paul had instructed them in his first epistle concerning the coming of the Lord:
"…and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the Living and True God; And to wait for His Son from heaven, Whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come" (I Thes. 1:9b-10).
Paul tells them of his suffering:
"For yourselves, brethren, know our entrance in unto you, that it was not in vain: But even after that we had SUFFERED before, and were SHAMEFULLY ENTREATED, as ye know… with MUCH CONTENTION
(I Thes. 2:1-2). Then Paul speaks of their suffering and the reason for sending Timothy to them:
"That no man should be moved by THESE AFFLICTIONS: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto" (I Thes. 3:3).
Paul states that:
"Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our AFFLICTION and DISTRESS by your faith" (I Thes. 3:7).
And so Paul tells them of his afflictions, and also acknowledges their afflictions. Again Paul assures these Thessalonians that:
"For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so comes as a thief in the night… For God has NOT appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thes. 5:2 & 9).
Well Timothy reported back to Paul that they were having even more tribulations and persecutions to the point that they were thinking that they must be in that period of time of "The Day of the Lord," and that they themselves were suffering wrath from God.
Once more Paul acknowledges these tribulations and suffering:
"So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in ALL YOUR PERSECUTIONS AND TRIBULATIONS THAT YE ENDURE" (II Thes. 1:4).
But rather than wrath from God, Paul assures them that this suffering is really a token of God’s righteous judgment and that God will be punishing those who are persecuting them:
"Which [suffering] is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be COUNTED WORTHY of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God recompense tribulation to them that TROUBLE YOU" (II Thes. 1:5-6).
Then Paul gives them one more giant promise of rest from all of these sufferings:
"And to you [and to US as well] who are troubled REST with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction [eonian extermination] from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power; When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) IN THAT DAY" (II Thes. 1:7-10).
And next we come to the Scriptures of our present study. Paul comforts them in their persecutions and tribulations. He assures them that endurance in faith will account the worthy to be in the Kingdom of God, and that they will have rest at the coming of our Lord to be glorified in His saints and admired in ALL THAT BELIEVE. This is the way of the believer leading up to the coming of the Lord and the "Day of the Lord," when all will be changed and glorified. But Paul tells them that that day is not here yet.
Listen carefully: Generation after generation after generation of believers and saints of God have lived, suffered and been persecuted, and then DIED. This "Day of Christ" or "Day of the Lord" not only did not come in their lifetime, but it will not be a reality to any of them WHEN IT DOES COME, unless something else happens in their lives FIRST!
Unless this experience happened to them in their lifetime, whenever they lived, they will not be in the First Resurrection and see the Coming of the Lord in the Day of the Lord. Something had to have happened to them—all of them. Something HAS to happen to YOU—ALL OF YOU who expect to see the Coming of the Lord and the Day of the Lord and be accounted worthy to be in The Kingdom of God. Yes, we already read in II Thes. 1:10, "When He shall come to be glorified in His saints…" And He will be glorified in all His saints at that time, but not unless something has happened in all of His saints FIRST!
Until and unless the thing that I am going to mention next is an accomplished FACT in your PRESENT life, you will not see The Coming of the Lord, neither will you be in the First Resurrection of spiritual rest and glorification. I kid you not, this is deep and heavy stuff!
The entire article is here; http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Thank you Joe!
"I think all of us go through these feelings from time to time, this journey is not a flat line experience..."
I'm happy to hear this because a flat line usually means you are dead!! So as long as there are peaks and valleys we know we are still alive and striving for the mark!
Great words!
Kathy :D
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Hi Joe,
It is a lot easier saying it, than the daily experience of living it. That beast (me) does not want to relinquish anything, least of all, the throne of my will for any other God; my beast is fighting for its life. For this i now know, that just as i have The Spirit Of Jesus Christ in me, so too the spirit of Satan (my beast) live in me.
Joh 8:44 (MKJV)
You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and did not abide in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.
Satan's greatest deception is for us (me) to look for something outside of us (me) that is the personification of evil. Rereading: http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html brings me back to see the complete and utter helplessness of me (beast) to get rid of me (beast) without my dying and being reborn in Jesus Christ. Because yes me (beast) can die, but i have no power to transform or raise myself from the dead physically or Spiritually.
This experience of evil is humbling now, and serves a great purpose of showing me my complete dependence on GOD And my Lord Jesus Christ; to rescue me from the pig slop and debauchery, i can so easily accept as good living.
WE ARE ALL PRODIGAL SONS
Excerpt from: http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html
You all know the parable. The son of a rich man wanted his inheritance NOW. And so he went into a far country and wasted his inheritance with riotous living—doing what seemed RIGHT in his own eyes. Enjoying life, having a good time. When he was physically and morally broke, he took a job slopping the pigs, and finally eating the slop of the pigs, himself. His selfish, carnal, house built on shifting sands FELL! "And GREAT was the fall thereof."
He had "left his first love" of his Father who obliged him in his "free will" decision to pursue his own happiness. But now, with his face in the watery slop of the pigs, he sees his reflection looking back at him—a BEAST—a man of great sin—a son in the state of spiritual perdition. What will he do?
He said:
"I will arise and go to my Father, and will say unto Him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before Thee, And am no more worthy to be called Thy son: make me as one of Thy hired servants… But the Father said to His servant, Bring forth the best robe [‘…for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints,' Rev. 19:8], and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand…
…[‘And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph’s hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck; And he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt,’ (Gen. 41:42-43). "To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with Me {second chariot from Christ}…" (Rev. 3:21), "And to he that overcomes, and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations {ALL of them, not just Egypt}]…
…For this my son was [spiritually] DEAD, and is alive again; he was LOST [pollumi—lost, destroyed, vanished] and is found. And they began to be merry" (Luke 15-11-24).
george :).
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George, Every time I read that in the Bible it makes me cry. I cannot even understand why I had not seen the Beast that I am, before now. I mean I know I am a sinner, but God really showing you everything about you is not a pretty picture. The day that we overcome completely will be glorious. Well, for sure you have to have God unblind you to see what you truly are .
In His Love,
Marlene
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Thank you Joe!
"I think all of us go through these feelings from time to time, this journey is not a flat line experience..."
I'm happy to hear this because a flat line usually means you are dead!! So as long as there are peaks and valleys we know we are still alive and striving for the mark!
Great words!
Kathy :D
Haha, that was a good one, Kathy! :D
Very true too. Great post, Joe. Thanks.
- Daywalker. 8)
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Marlene,
It is an ugly picture we are being dragged away from, kicking and screaming bloody murder all the time, wanting to go back to our comfortable filthy pigpen.
Not pretty, but necessary for us to want to leave the pigpen, and ask for forgiveness Of GOD, our FATHER. Repentance is our only right action, once our eyes and ears are open to The Spiritual Truths That Jesus Christ Himself Has revealed to us.
Rom 7: 22-25 (MKJV)
22 For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man;
23 but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin being in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
george :o.
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Perhaps the three most profound things I have learned to believe and consistently think about (since I stumbled onto Bible-Truths) is the falling away (from our first Love), recognizing the "beast within," and having real (not feigned) mercy for all of our brethren, aren't these prerequisites for growing in His Spirit?
We might gain knowledge without actually living it but we will not gain wisdom.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
Along that vein, yesterday in reading LOF V I read the part below and thought how absent these qualities are in my life. Or so it seems. And I thought “when Lord do these come?....will they ever be present?”. I’ve tried my entire life to achieve some sense of these character traits but failed absolutely miserably. I realize now, by God's grace, it was because I wasn’t being centered in my heart and mind by the master of these qualities. The beast was surely in every notch of my heart back then. He still is too much now, sadly, but he's being pushed out. It's a fight. My thoughts yesterday then progressed to how God looks at the heart of man. Surprisingly my next thought was although WE may not see or recognize these qualities in our day to day living we know they are present or becoming present, some growing strong and perhaps others not so strong yet, but nonetheless he is growing us in these qualities and they will bloom in his timing, not ours. Would we have it any other way? It’s good that we no longer buy into the “candy” of the feel good books that line shelves on “how to be a better you!”, which only gives a temporary and false sense of growth and security, but that we rely on God to grow us as only he knows best. 20 years ago I looked at these traits and thought “I can do that by myself!” I was wrong.
From LOF Part V:
WE ARE GOD’S GARDEN
"In what "certain ways" are we "like God’s garden?" Remember we must compare spiritual things with spiritual. Answer: "My Father is the Farmer… "I [Jesus] am the grape vine. You [that’s us] are the branches. He who is remaining in Me, and I in him, this one is BRINGING FORTH MUCH FRUIT" (John 15:1 & 5). I sn’t this easy when we stop fighting God’s Word with our own preconceived doctrines? And trust me; this is as hard as it get, if we will just allow God’s spirit to TEACH US spiritual things! Now then, WHAT KIND of fruit are we talking about—apples and grapes? Let’s again, compare spiritual things with spiritual. Answer: "But the FRUIT of the SPIRIT [in God’s spiritual garden, which we are] is love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and self control" (Gal. 5:22-23). All of these character traits from God’s Spirit are invisible and they are SPIRITUAL. But does that mean that they are not real? Of course not. In fact, we can SEE the results of these invisible, spiritual character traits of the spirit just as Jesus told us we can see the results of the invisible wind."
Gary
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Joe
Echoing your thoughts, as we go deeper into the word the more clear it becomes. As things are more obvious it becomes easier to know and do right. If we stay in the word it stays simple. The marvelous thing about Ray is he takes us deeper into the word and makes it clearer.
Thank you for posting.
Askseeknock
Charles
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For whatever reason I just want to share what I've learned from bible-truths.com.
I think the biggest thing Iam learning lately is the more I read Scriptures and Rays teaching and all the posts on here is, I really dont know much at all. It seems almost everything I read is like a new revelation. Even after re-reading there is something that either makes me really happy or makes me feel really humble. It is truly humbling either way.
Peace to all, G.Driggs
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Rest, how I long for much needed rest, but its not over yet, still a little while more. Someday soon is my hope.
Thank you
Peace, G.Driggs
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For whatever reason I just want to share what I've learned from bible-truths.com.
I think the biggest thing Iam learning lately is the more I read Scriptures and Rays teaching and all the posts on here is, I really dont know much at all. It seems almost everything I read is like a new revelation. Even after re-reading there is something that either makes me really happy or makes me feel really humble. It is truly humbling either way.
Peace to all, G.Driggs
Hello G.Driggs,
I know what you mean. I am reading the LOF Series for the 3rd time now [currently on the Lucifer Hoax--part 9 section], and it's still happening to me...
What? Wow! I can't believe I missed that the FIRST time! Huh? Wow! I can't believe I missed that the SECOND time, too!
- Daywalker. 8)
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I just noticed that somehow my topic, "What Have I learned?" somehow got merged with the topic, "2 or 3 Things Learned (still) Learning". Did I goof something somehow? Oh well its all good I suppose.
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I just noticed that somehow my topic, "What Have I learned?" somehow got merged with the topic, "2 or 3 Things Learned (still) Learning". Did I goof something somehow? Oh well its all good I suppose.
Check your PM box...topics related, so they were merged...left you a message.
Marques
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Hi Everyone,
There are some really good additions posted here! Thank you all.
As I was reading through them one of the articles came to mind;
From; The Lake of Fire - PART VI (TWO JUDGMENTS BY FIRE)
THE LIFE OF A BELIEVER
Let’s see again just what is involved in living the live of a believer:
"For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS workmanship [Gk: achievement], created in Christ Jesus unto [unto what?] … unto GOOD WORKS, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). We are not saved by OUR WORKS, but we are preordained to walk in GOD’S GOOD WORKS, nonetheless.
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3;3). Notice that Eph. 2:10 says that we are "created IN Christ." Something new happens when we are "IN" Christ. There is a NEW birth and there is a NEW creation, "Therefore if any man be IN Christ, he is a NEW CREATURE [Gk: creation]: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (II Cor. 5:17). Albeit, this new creation has its perils as we will see in the next verse.
"Yea, and ALL that will live godly in Christ Jesus [as a new and different creature] SHALL SUFFER PERSECUTION." (II Tim. 3:12). This is not just a possibility; it is an absolute PROMISE.
"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through MUCH TRIBULATION [pressure, afflictions] enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).
"For if we would JUDGE OURSELVES, we should not be judged. But when we ARE JUDGED, we are CHASTENED [Greek: paideuo, to train, educate, discipline, punish, chastise, instruct, learn, and teach] of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world [at the great white throne judgment]" (I Cor. 11:31-32).
"And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks unto you as unto children, My Son, despise not you the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of Him. For whom the Lord loves He CHASTENS [Prov. 13:24] AND SCOURGES [see I Pet. 5:9] EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES. But if you be without chastisement, whereof ALL are partakers, then are you ********, and not sons" (Heb. 12:5-8). "Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be REVEALED BY FIRE; and the fire shall try EVERY MAN’S WORK of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3;13).
"Fear NONE of those things which you shall suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried; and you shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give you a CROWN OF LIFE" (Rev. 2:10). "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE [eternal, immortal life]" (Rev. 2:7), "He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11), "And he that overcomes, and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give POWER OVER THE NATIONS" (Rev. 2;26), "He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment [righteousness] and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life [Christ is the book of life] but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels" (Rev. 3:5), "Him that overcomes will I make a PILLAR [a main and vital support in the very government of Almighty God] IN THE TEMPLE OF MY GOD…" (Rev. 3:12), "To him that overcomes will I grant to SIT WITH ME IN MY THRONE, even as I also overcame [see John 16:33], and am set down with My Father in His throne" (Rev. 3:21).
There we have a very brief overview of the life of a believer. Is it not obvious that the life of a believer consists of a whole lot more than just "believing" that Jesus is the Christ? God has bigger plans for the human race than just "saving" them. God can "save" chickens, but God doesn’t want chickens for sons! God wants sons that are PERFECT as He is perfect! Wouldn’t you all agree that becoming perfect might just require a whole lot more than singing gospel music once a week? Perfection requires many things that only God can perform in our lives. We are, after all, His workmanship, His achievement. Having ALL OUR WORKS tried in the fire of His Holy Spirit is no small part of becoming perfect.
http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html
Peace,
Joe
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"For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS workmanship [Gk: achievement], created in Christ Jesus unto [unto what?] … unto GOOD WORKS, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). We are not saved by OUR WORKS, but we are preordained to walk in GOD’S GOOD WORKS, nonetheless.
This is along the lines of what has been impacting me lately. How often in the babalonian walk in the past have we tried to pull ourselves up by our own spiritual bootstraps as it were...'I've got to pray more, fast more, read the scriptures more, be kinder, ect.' I have always felt that these are things that I somehow have to accomplish although I would admit that of course God has to do it through me but the reality of that always escaped me.
If God doesn't do it then it's not going to get done!! The flesh can not accomplish something spiritual. WIthout Jesus Christ we truly can do nothing. That isn't just a quaint saying....it's a fact. How often I had read the scriptures along the lines of that He is the potter and we are the clay but the reality of that truly escaped me. It's very humbling that if God isn't the one doing it in me then it's not going to get done at all. Truly it's working out our own salvation with fear and trembling because it all depends on God and if he has not chosen me to be one of the elect then I won't be one of the elect. I truly have nothing to do with the process and this is the thing that the flesh doesn't want to hear. But the impact of this truth has also been a relief to me as well. I really can't mess it up because it is God's good works that he is working through me....I'm just a conduit.
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Arion,well spoken my Brother ;) :).
Peace...Mark
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The worst time for me was when I couldn't find the path at all. I once sat in the same place for 10 years begging God to show me the path or talk to me or teach me. Just anything. I was out of the church with no place to go. I felt quite crazy because I couldn't find anyone else.
God gave me a long "time out" and it was just what I needed. My faith was weak when waiting and a lot stronger when going through the hard obstacles on the twisted, uphill path. I thought I would reach the end of the path and finally be finished. I had to learn to live by faith and not by sight. All that "noise" was almost unbearable. Everything was telling me that God abandoned me and left me to die. I knew I was the beast and was very afraid of hell because God wasn't doing anything to "fix" me. I was trying to save myself by finding that hard path again so I could move forward and find salvation.
You can't imagine the weeping and laughter I felt when I found BT. Not only was God faithful to gather me with others, but he set me free from that terrible fear of hell. I could then delight in knowing I was the beast and all will be saved. I was able to let go of the fear of having no free will. I've settled in on this island and still can't see a path right now, but I'm not complaining.
God gave me a tiny bit of faith to believe that he didn't abandon me.
He gave me a tiny bit of faith to believe that he would finish the work he began in me.
I was holding on by a thread of faith with no sight or evidence that it was true.
The last question I had before finding all of you was how is it just for God to send anyone to hell when he does all the choosing and we are all equally guilty of sin? How could he choose to save some and not all and still be just? No one is better than anyone else. We are all the same. There isn't any justice in that. I remember saying do you just say eeny meeny miny mo? lol. God gave me a thread of faith to believe he is a just God even though I didn't have the answer.
Then he led me here and Ray showed me that God is a just God. I learned that I can sit without fear when God says sit and wait. That had to be the hardest lesson I've learned so far.
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M.G., Thank you for sharing. Your story is very similar to mine. It is good to know that God has not singled "me" out to sit and wait. I am learning to accept the place He has put me in, so thankful that He brought me here.
Angie
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Perhaps the three most profound things I have learned to believe and consistently think about (since I stumbled onto Bible-Truths) is the falling away (from our first Love), recognizing the "beast within," and having real (not feigned) mercy for all of our brethren, aren't these prerequisites for growing in His Spirit?
We might gain knowledge without actually living it but we will not gain wisdom.
I spent over 30 years believing (when I happened to be thinking about it) that I needed to stay tuned to the evening news to see when the false prophet, the beast, etc. would be revealed, in other words looking outward for signs and wonders that would signify the last days.
Like some others here I also have experienced from time to time a feeling of being in tune with Him, having my eyes and ears ratcheted opened another notch, feeling a genuine love for my sisters and brothers and a sense of peace that all is well in the walk, that I am on the right path.....
Then the clarity clouds a bit, there is too much noise encompassing me to hear His voice as distinctly as before and my patience dissipates in regard to dealing with people.
It is like walking through the woods where the trail is cleared and easy to follow for a time and then you encounter some rather steep hills, moving past that the way is clear with a pleasant view until the path leads to a mucky swamp full of scorpions, snakes and mud 2 feet deep, suddenly there is a chill in the air and night is about to fall. Getting through this ordeal and taking a rest from the activity morning comes and you see the path continues on high and dry ground in a straight, defined line, it is sunny, warm and life is good. Then as day becomes evening there is a sharp bend in the path, to the left is a cliff that drops 100 feet straight down and on the right are swirling waters splashing on jagged rocks, up ahead you can see the brush and fallen trees that you soon will be dealing with. How much longer must these obstacles be overcome, when will we finally get to our destination?
I think all of us go through these feelings from time to time, this journey is not a flat line experience, there are many peaks and valleys and I really can't wait until we all are truly transformed incorruptible, but patience must be learned, faith must be more fully developed and love must be in our core being as we continue to be refined, being created in His image.
Easier said than experienced! ;)
The following is from the Lake of Fire Part XIV ("The Beast Within");
THE DAY OF THE LORD AND II THESSALONIANS II
Most of us not unlike the Thessalonians of Paul’s day are aware of a prophetic time spoken by the prophets known as "The Day of the Lord." The Thessalonians knew somewhat of this day and what it portended, as Paul spoke to them earlier about it. Now he has to tell them in this second epistle,
"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that THE DAY OF CHRIST is at hand" (II Thes. 2:2).
Never forget that Jesus Christ IS ‘The LORD,’ and so the Day of Christ and the Day of the Lord both represent the Son of God.
Notice what Paul had instructed them in his first epistle concerning the coming of the Lord:
"…and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the Living and True God; And to wait for His Son from heaven, Whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come" (I Thes. 1:9b-10).
Paul tells them of his suffering:
"For yourselves, brethren, know our entrance in unto you, that it was not in vain: But even after that we had SUFFERED before, and were SHAMEFULLY ENTREATED, as ye know… with MUCH CONTENTION
(I Thes. 2:1-2). Then Paul speaks of their suffering and the reason for sending Timothy to them:
"That no man should be moved by THESE AFFLICTIONS: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto" (I Thes. 3:3).
Paul states that:
"Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our AFFLICTION and DISTRESS by your faith" (I Thes. 3:7).
And so Paul tells them of his afflictions, and also acknowledges their afflictions. Again Paul assures these Thessalonians that:
"For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so comes as a thief in the night… For God has NOT appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thes. 5:2 & 9).
Well Timothy reported back to Paul that they were having even more tribulations and persecutions to the point that they were thinking that they must be in that period of time of "The Day of the Lord," and that they themselves were suffering wrath from God.
Once more Paul acknowledges these tribulations and suffering:
"So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in ALL YOUR PERSECUTIONS AND TRIBULATIONS THAT YE ENDURE" (II Thes. 1:4).
But rather than wrath from God, Paul assures them that this suffering is really a token of God’s righteous judgment and that God will be punishing those who are persecuting them:
"Which [suffering] is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be COUNTED WORTHY of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God recompense tribulation to them that TROUBLE YOU" (II Thes. 1:5-6).
Then Paul gives them one more giant promise of rest from all of these sufferings:
"And to you [and to US as well] who are troubled REST with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction [eonian extermination] from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power; When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) IN THAT DAY" (II Thes. 1:7-10).
And next we come to the Scriptures of our present study. Paul comforts them in their persecutions and tribulations. He assures them that endurance in faith will account the worthy to be in the Kingdom of God, and that they will have rest at the coming of our Lord to be glorified in His saints and admired in ALL THAT BELIEVE. This is the way of the believer leading up to the coming of the Lord and the "Day of the Lord," when all will be changed and glorified. But Paul tells them that that day is not here yet.
Listen carefully: Generation after generation after generation of believers and saints of God have lived, suffered and been persecuted, and then DIED. This "Day of Christ" or "Day of the Lord" not only did not come in their lifetime, but it will not be a reality to any of them WHEN IT DOES COME, unless something else happens in their lives FIRST!
Unless this experience happened to them in their lifetime, whenever they lived, they will not be in the First Resurrection and see the Coming of the Lord in the Day of the Lord. Something had to have happened to them—all of them. Something HAS to happen to YOU—ALL OF YOU who expect to see the Coming of the Lord and the Day of the Lord and be accounted worthy to be in The Kingdom of God. Yes, we already read in II Thes. 1:10, "When He shall come to be glorified in His saints…" And He will be glorified in all His saints at that time, but not unless something has happened in all of His saints FIRST!
Until and unless the thing that I am going to mention next is an accomplished FACT in your PRESENT life, you will not see The Coming of the Lord, neither will you be in the First Resurrection of spiritual rest and glorification. I kid you not, this is deep and heavy stuff!
The entire article is here; http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
Hi Joe
I am glad to read your post. This has been heavy on my mind about not being one of the elect. I think to myself that I lack the patience to make it. The beast within me is ever present. I catch it sometimes but other times I fail and react before thinking about what I am saying or doing and this seems small but it is annoying to fail when you know right from wrong but yet it happens to me often. Thanks, for sharing your thoughts.
Sandyk
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Echoing your thoughts, as we go deeper into the word the more clear it becomes. As things are more obvious it becomes easier to know and do right. If we stay in the word it stays simple. The marvelous thing about Ray is he takes us deeper into the word and makes it clearer.
My thoughts exactly, Charles. :D
Couldn't have put the obstacles thing better myself, Joe. The stage I'm at now, is merely being on the path, looking at those huge obstacles, walking towards it as slowly as I can. When I get there, though... Yikes. I'm such a coward, haha. :-\
Thanks for sharing, guys.
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The worst time for me was when I couldn't find the path at all. I once sat in the same place for 10 years begging God to show me the path or talk to me or teach me. Just anything. I was out of the church with no place to go. I felt quite crazy because I couldn't find anyone else.
Hi M.G.
I believe there are more than a few people here (and elsewhere) who can relate to your experience, I know it speaks to me, loud and clear. Your testimony should be read and reread and meditated on, it is a testimony of the faith and perseverance that is woven through the old and new testaments.
We all have a unique path that will ultimately lead us to the prize which is real life in Christ but so often along the journey it is like a child looking toward and running to a rainbow, it looks within reach, only a short run away from where he or she is presently at, the pot of gold (treasure) appears so close yet getting there no matter how fast we try to run the distance separating us from our goal never seems to get any closer.
Our race to the rainbow is futile under our own power, we have a promise that this "rainbow" is not something we of ourselves can take hold of but instead it will appear to those who live by faith and are comforted by His promises.
I thought of this verse as I was writing about the rainbow analogy;
Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
When we are finally delivered to our hoped for destination, reaching the rainbow, there is our Lord! In all His glory!
I cannot even imagine the pure ecstasy of that moment, the awe within us, the hope realized, the peace of experiencing the transition from flesh to spiritual. What a day it will be!
Peace,
Joe
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More on 'Still Learning' as even the apostles were:
Email reply from Ray (http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm#understand):
Dear Margaret:
I will try to help your understanding.
The Scriptures you reference, are true, but they don't exactly say what you think they say. You state:
"...then why did the apostles even do that since they had ALL UNDERSTANDING OF THE TRUTH? (Luke 24:45, John 14:15-31)."
Did they REALLY have "all understanding of the truth?" NO, THEY DID NOT, neither do these verses say that they did. Notice, In verse 44 of Luke 24 Jesus tells His apostles about all that needed to be fulfilled in Moses and the prophets "concerning Me" He says. Not that they understood "ALL Scripture." Jesus opened their understanding of the Scriptures, "CONCERNING ME." Not concerning EVERYTHING!
Now here is just one ABSOLUTE proof of what I just said, found in the very next two verses:
"And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name AMONG ALL NATIONS, beginning at Jerusalem" (Luke 24:45-46).
Notice in your other reference of John 15:15-31, in verse 26 concerning the Comforter which had not as yet been given to the Apostles, "...he [it] SHALL [future tense] teach you all things..." Yet, when the Gentile Cornelius turned to God and requested Peter to come to his house, Peter RESISTED at first, not KNOWING OR REMEMBERING that Jesus said His gospel was to be preached "AMONG ALL [Gentile] NATIONS."
Were there things the Apostles did NOT know about Jesus and His message when they began the ministries? Yes, Jesus Himself tells us so:
"I have yet MANY THINGS to say unto you, but ye CANNOT bear them NOW."
And so, God revealed "many things" to his Apostles (including Paul) as they progressed in their ministries. They came together in Acts 15 (MANY YEARS AFTER Christ's resurrection) for the express purpose of settling issues within the ministry which were causing confusion, especially among the Jewish Converts. Not the least of these issues was whether the Law of Moses was to be kept or not (Acts 15:5). PRETTY BIG ISSUE not to have already been settled, wouldn't you say?
God be with you,
Ray
Been reading through the book of Acts recently and thought of this...it's very interesting seeing more and more how our gaining of understanding is so similar to theirs. They learned in increments as we all do. :)
Marques
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Hi Joe
I am glad to read your post. This has been heavy on my mind about not being one of the elect. I think to myself that I lack the patience to make it. The beast within me is ever present. I catch it sometimes but other times I fail and react before thinking about what I am saying or doing and this seems small but it is annoying to fail when you know right from wrong but yet it happens to me often. Thanks, for sharing your thoughts.
Sandyk
Hi Sandy,
Dear Sister I totally understand your thoughts, who among us can say with any certainty that we are of the elect, the chosen? We don't do the choosing, it is all of God. If indeed any of us are counted to be within this select group it will be just as His apostles were chosen, by Him. I do not think that Peter, James, John or any of the others woke up one morning and said "today will be the day I become one of inner circle of the Messiah."
Did they really understand what that might entail, even if they thought the time was at hand from paying attention to John the Baptist?
I am sure that once they saw, listened to His Words and witnessed the miracles of Christ they had their own expectations of what would transpire. The problem was that although they were convinced Jesus was the "Promised One" they could not spiritually comprehend what was to come or truly understand what His mission was at that time.
Just like you and many of us we are (as they were) blinded by our own expectations of what a disciple/apostle/elect/chosen of Christ actually means, I know I sure don't have a handle on it, all I know is that the ones singled out for this will not fail, they can't!
Not because of any superiority within themselves, only that the Spirit of God directed their steps as He sees fit.
So please take comfort in the fact that He does the choosing, has it all figured out and that all that ever lived will be perfected in Him at some point through the ages.
Peace,
Joe
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Excellent addition Marques!
I was typing as you were posting...... Very appropriate and timely here.
Peace,
Joe
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Wow, for the last two days I have been going through a big trial. I sure, did need to read all of this. I can see now that God was working on me even when I did not know the truth about many things. Then , he grew me up in many things. This is all a process and not an easy one. Right, now I am just hanging on. I know, God is bigger then this trial.
For, sure it is a process and each trial gets harder. I know, one thing learning patience is a hard thing. I know, this trial is for a prupose. But, right now I am trying to see something good coming out of this.
Yes, we are blessed to know the truth or other wise I would not be handling this half as well as I am now. But, I still want to run the race but, right now I just don't see where all this is going. Before, I did not know enough truth to handle it. Now, God is helping me to handle it different then I use to handle things.
But, I just needed this post today.
I know, I have a long way to go to be chosen. I just need to be patient with God.
In His Love,
Marlene
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Rays paper was very helpful to me when trying to understand all the different kinds of trails we go through.
THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT IS FOR CHRIST'S DISCIPLES
THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT IS FOR YOU, NOW!
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm
These four examples of Christ's judgments in His Elect can come in so many varied and over-lapping circumstances that it may be impossible at any given time to tell exactly which if any of these God is using for your benefit at any particular time. Jesus' personalized uses of judgment, high council, Gehenna, and prison, are obviously geared to fit each individual according to each needed correction.
I do believe, however, that those of us who have been experiencing Jesus' judgments in our lives, can attest to the fact that we can now recognize many of these "strange" things in our lives, as being judgments from God. Have you never experienced a "FIERY trail" such as Peter reminds us of? (I Pet.4:12). As badly as we want these trials to be over, we nonetheless, need to be reminded that these trails are good for us, producing "patience"&"righteousness."
Here is a Scripture that I continually remind myself and others of, when life gets a little hard to bear:
"Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby" (Heb. 12:11).
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GOD never leaves us!
When I saw this post (2 or 3 things learned (still) learning) and several others of the last few days about how GOD molds us, teaches us, chastises us, corrects us, comforts us...my thoughts keep taking me to how it is to be a child. Whenever I have felt a need to have some rejuvination and simplicity, I am drawn to spend time with children. Not having children of my own, I have been blessed to have friends that allow me to play a part in their childrens' lives. Tonight I was thinking about a conversation that I had with one of my friends this past weekend about if I might consider taking care of their kids should something happen to them. What an awesome responsibility!; but what a rewarding role to be blessed with!; how good of a parent would I be?; what type of parent would I be?; all these keep filtering through my head and I've thought back to my own childhood and the one thing that I have spent my life grappling with was being deserted by my father. Dissertion by a parent leaves an indelable, long reaching effect on children.
Much of these thoughts have intertwined and I have been praying and meditating on this and GOD opened my eyes and made me understand that: HE will never leave me! HE will not desert me! HE is my father! I can not tell you the comfort that this brings, it is like a life time of sorrow has been lifted from my shoulders. It is not the first time I have cried lately, but it is tears of relief and joy!
NB
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From;
WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER? . . . Nashville Conference 2007
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html
Isa 55:9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
That’s how far apart our (God's and our own) thinking is.
But I want to bring this together. The way He’s doing this is you’ve got to go through a living hell on this earth. It’s the only way, it’s God’s way.
Whatever is, is not because man screwed up and through his free-will, he thwarted this beautiful garden of Eden, and all such stupid nonsense. Like I heard Hagee and Copeland chit chat about a few days ago. How wonderful their walk with God is, perfect harmony, they were the very image of God. They went through the whole thing, nonsense. People who are in the spiritual image of God DO NOT SIN!
They sin, quickly and easily, you know.
So what IS (this painful experience), that is what it is supposed to be. Right here and now, this is what God wants. Why? Apparently this is the best way for Him to get what He wants, out of us. To go through this, is the best way! It’s not only the best way, it’s the best of the best ways.
So this is the best that God can do , but it’s not pretty and it’s not fancy and it’s not always happy. It’s painful and sad and much of our lives are misery, you know, laughing on the outside and crying on the inside. It’s not always happy happy happy, but it’s necessary. Is it right, that God should put us through something like that?
We have no say about it, we didn’t ask to be born and we didn’t ask to get lung cancer or whatever. We didn’t ask for this, God puts us through it. Is it fair for Him to do that? Why is it fair? Well there is something good in store. But is it necessary that we would have to go through all of this bad first? It’s true, you have to have the contrast. But sometimes I just say, Lord I think I’m at the place now, Lord I think I’m there. You can take away the bad and see if I’m not thankful.
He sent Jesus Christ to go through the same stuff we go through and that’s why I wanted to bring these out today. Because most of you never knew that. Jesus Christ lived a pretty painful life. Paul lived a pretty painful life, he said I learned to be content in all things. God put His Son through what we have to go through, because He loves us! He didn’t have to.
Jesus Christ did something between His creation and the creation of the earth. He did something to acquire God’s glory, something. Because He had it and He didn’t get it for nothing.
God wants creatures, He wants children, He wants sons and daughters. He has a desire to have something like Himself. But for us to be like Him, we have to go through some pretty tough stuff. So He sent His Son as an example, as how you can go through it and never get angry or upset with God. And to never turn against your fellowman, because of what you have to go through. He lived a perfect life, of the perfect man, sick and diseased, in pain and He lived it perfectly. But God was living in Him, the Father was going through it just as much as He was, you see.
Christ had to die, it said He had to die for our sins. That’s true, that’s the scripture, Christ died for our sin. But then we have a scripture here that doesn’t mention sin.
John 3:16 "For God so(thus) loved the world,”
Thus or in the manner, a lot of people think it’s saying He loved us so much, but that is not what this is saying. What this is saying is God loved us, in this way. This is the manner and way in which He loved us. In this way He loved the world.
“…that He gave His only begotten Son,”
Ok, He died, they killed Him on the cross, He died.
“…that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.”
Of course the Bible is written so man don’t understand it. That’s why some of these things are put in there, “that who-so-ever believes.” God knows and now we know, everybody is going to believe. So the ‘who-so-ever’ is going to be everybody, ok.
But He gave His Son, now here’s the point I want to make and that is this, why did Christ have to die? Why? Why did the Father sacrifice His Son? Why did He have to do that? HE DIDN’T HAVE TO DO THAT! He didn’t have to do anything, HE’S GOD! Why did He?
Because whether you recognize it now or later in life or those in the resurrection to judgment or for the rest of eternity, we are going to know it for sure. That God died for us for no other reason than to show us that HE LOVES US! He did not have to die. He said, I will do it to show them. How can I show them that what I am putting them through has real value? What can I do? I can promise them the world, I can give them mansions and youth and joyful life. I have all that to give, but they will say, you are only giving out of your abundance, of what you have. What can I really do, that you will know that I really love you? And God said, I will DIE!
But God can’t die, He’s eternal, He has immortality, deathlessness. If you have immortality you can’t die.
So He made a Son. He made Him great. And to show us how great He was, He said, let Me show you what I can do when I make a Son. Ok, Create the universe first, now become a man, and now die.
Then they will know We love them.
Then they will know.
Peace,
Joe
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Joe, You have no idea how I am needing this post today. I have been going through a living hell this week. I had a little breather. I had a few months now boom. I am just so glad I have you all. God just seems to put in the mind of others to post something. I have been at my wits in this week. It has been one family thing after the other. Between , that and my health, which is not made better under these trials.
But, I just keep taking this to God.
I just wanted to tell you, I am so thankful for this post.
In His Love,
Marlene
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Hi Marlene,
You are welcome Sister, I am very familiar with experiences like your present reality.
We all seem to have periods of pure joy as we meditate on and share His wonderful promises and the peace that comes with the knowledge of God's love and ultimate purpose for His creation. Then sometimes suddenly we find ourselves for a time (times and half a time?) in a brier patch of trials that challenge and test our faith.
If we truly believe that all these things are necessary for our growth to spiritual perfection then we should be thankful that we have been given the wisdom to see it for what it is, His process for creating Sons and Daughters that are to receive an unimaginable inheritance!
I am acutely aware of how much easier it is to say these things than it is to live through them.
A bad analogy might be sitting in a dentist's chair as we experience a root canal, it is not especially a pleasant experience but there is a certain relief if not joy that this necessary procedure will ultimately relieve us of a more profound pain and we will be much better off because of what we had to go through.
I really love the following bit from Ray;
We didn’t ask for this, God puts us through it. Is it fair for Him to do that? Why is it fair? Well there is something good in store. But is it necessary that we would have to go through all of this bad first? It’s true, you have to have the contrast.
But sometimes I just say, Lord I think I’m at the place now, Lord I think I’m there. You can take away the bad and see if I’m not thankful. ;)
Peace,
Joe
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Thanks, Joe.
Marlene
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You are very welcome Marlene.
Peace,
Joe
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This topic and all the posts are really hitting home with me and others at just the right time. Finding myself in a circumstance I asked God not to put me in again, but whats different now is Im learning to be content. There was much guilt and shame at first, but not so much now. He is in control no matter what happens. Its been said already, it hurts, but it is for an ultimately good reason.
Thank you all, G.Driggs
Ecc 7:20 For there is no righteous man in the earth Who does good and never sins. (CLV)
Rom 3:23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God. (CLV)
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GOD never leaves us!
When I saw this post (2 or 3 things learned (still) learning) and several others of the last few days about how GOD molds us, teaches us, chastises us, corrects us, comforts us...my thoughts keep taking me to how it is to be a child. Whenever I have felt a need to have some rejuvination and simplicity, I am drawn to spend time with children. Not having children of my own, I have been blessed to have friends that allow me to play a part in their childrens' lives. Tonight I was thinking about a conversation that I had with one of my friends this past weekend about if I might consider taking care of their kids should something happen to them. What an awesome responsibility!; but what a rewarding role to be blessed with!; how good of a parent would I be?; what type of parent would I be?; all these keep filtering through my head and I've thought back to my own childhood and the one thing that I have spent my life grappling with was being deserted by my father. Dissertion by a parent leaves an indelable, long reaching effect on children.
Much of these thoughts have intertwined and I have been praying and meditating on this and GOD opened my eyes and made me understand that: HE will never leave me! HE will not desert me! HE is my father! I can not tell you the comfort that this brings, it is like a life time of sorrow has been lifted from my shoulders. It is not the first time I have cried lately, but it is tears of relief and joy!
NB
Hi NB,
As I was rereading your post I was touched by your words, even as many of us have shared similar experiences no two of us have journeyed along the same exact path. This is how God creates totally unique Sons & Daughters.
Psa 25:10 All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.
Pro 2:8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.
Pro 2:20 That thou mayest walk in the way of good men, and keep the paths of the righteous.
Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Perhaps the following verse holds the most promise;
Isa 42:16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.
Notice that it is not a single file path where all march in line one behind another but multiple paths designed for each individual, we are not blindly following the man in front of us, we are led by God Himself! This is a profound thing to meditate on. The Creator of all the marvelous, incredible things of the universe has designed a path uniquely for each and every one of us and this was all thought out even before that one point in the void of space exploded into the "big bang."
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Amen!
Joe
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Joe:
It's such a powerful thing, when GOD chooses to show you something that is so comforting. Thank you so much for sharing these passages with me. There have been many times that I have wondered "how did I get here?" All this time it has been GOD leading me on this path. NB
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Hello Joe.
I cant help but agree with the things you shared with us here. Having said that, I sometimes wonder why I feel like HE is not directing my path, since I acknowledge HIM in all my ways. ALL of them, good and bad. I am currently finding it hard to even be acknowledged by HIM as I cannot put together the bad things I do and the GOD-like creature that I'm supposed to be turned into. Then again, I cant help but keep repeating these very words:
...Lord I think I’m at the place now, Lord I think I’m there. You can take away the bad and see if I’m not thankful. ;)
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Kewli: This is what I turn to when anxious. NB
(YTL) Mat 6:25 `Because of this I say to you, be not anxious for your life, what ye may eat, and what ye may drink, nor for your body, what ye may put on. Is not the life more than the nourishment, and the body than the clothing?
Mat 6:26 look to the fowls of the heaven, for they do not sow, nor reap, nor gather into storehouses, and your heavenly Father doth nourish them; are not ye much better than they?
Mat 6:27 `And who of you, being anxious, is able to add to his age one cubit?
Mat 6:28 and about clothing why are ye anxious? consider well the lilies of the field; how do they grow? they do not labour, nor do they spin;
Mat 6:29 and I say to you, that not even Solomon in all his glory was arrayed as one of these.
Mat 6:30 `And if the herb of the field, that to-day is, and to-morrow is cast to the furnace, God doth so clothe--not much more you, O ye of little faith?
Mat 6:31 therefore ye may not be anxious, saying, What may we eat? or, What may we drink? or, What may we put round?
Mat 6:32 for all these do the nations seek for, for your heavenly Father doth know that ye have need of all these;
Mat 6:33 but seek ye first the reign of God and His righteousness, and all these shall be added to you.
Mat 6:34 Be not therefore anxious for the morrow, for the morrow shall be anxious for its own things; sufficient for the day is the evil of it.