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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: ez2u on July 17, 2009, 05:01:15 PM

Title: free will
Post by: ez2u on July 17, 2009, 05:01:15 PM: One of my sons had a tee- shirt he wore to work it was given to us by Lawn Boy
on the tee shirt was the words " The power to do Right" very impressive.

What i have to ask you is this Does God have free Will?
I see things in dimensions. Will we have free will we we are are His fullness?
peggy
Title: Re: free will
Post by: Marky Mark on July 17, 2009, 05:24:22 PM: Email to Ray.Hope it helps.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2462.0.html

Dear Harry: Are we better than our own LORD?

Joh 14:10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. "

God be with you,
Ray

Peace...Mark
Title: Re: free will
Post by: mharrell08 on July 17, 2009, 05:24:55 PM: Quote from: ez2u on July 17, 2009, 05:01:15 PM
One of my sons had a tee- shirt he wore to work it was given to us by Lawn Boy
on the tee shirt was the words " The power to do Right" very impressive.

What i have to ask you is this Does God have free Will?
I see things in dimensions. Will we have free will we we are are His fullness?
peggy

FYI: Great thread on this discussion from October 2008 'Does God have free will' : http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8451.0.html

Hope this helps,

Marques
Title: Re: free will
Post by: daywalker on July 17, 2009, 07:31:03 PM: Hello Peggy,

People can get very confused with this topic, because most are not aware of what "free will" actually means. It is used very loosely both by the Secular World and the Church. As long as you stick to the true definition of "free will", then the answer is simple...

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition:

Free Will:

1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

Does God make "free choices"? Does He make "choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will"? [hint: That last part should make it obvious.]

Does God ever do anything against His Own Will?

Ephesians 1:11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His will

No. The answer is "no". God does not have a "free" will.

God Be With You,

Daywalker. 8)
Title: Re: free will
Post by: Dennis Vogel on July 17, 2009, 09:07:28 PM: The way some people use "free will" implies God changes His mind.

God never needs to change His mind.
Title: Re: free will
Post by: musicman on July 18, 2009, 01:03:59 AM: It's a false doctrine. It would be like a churchaholic asking if god could send people to hell. Well, there is no such thing as hell so no, He couldn't. Does God have a christian false doctrine as a part of His nature? No. Does God have the ability to go against His own nature? I suppose. But that wouldn't mean He has free will. Can God make Himself hate the world? Can God make Himself a lyer? Can God make Himself vane and stupid like we humans? No, no and no. God does not have a free will.
Title: Re: free will
Post by: ez2u on July 18, 2009, 01:41:51 AM: after reading the replies what was i thinking???? ???
thanks people my mind wasn't thinking right
maybe I have been studying too much and the brain
was scramble. thanks again
Title: Re: free will
Post by: Marky Mark on July 18, 2009, 12:54:24 PM: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5146.msg40669.html#msg40669

Dear Dean: Regarding the Forum's question as to whether God has a free will or not:

"Free will" is not a topic of Scripture. Humanity absolutely does not have a free will/free choice disposition. All thoughts and actions have a cause. God, however, is the First Cause. God answers to no one and no one dictates or causes God to think or do anything--all Protestant and Catholic prayers to the contrary included. However, we are told in the Scriptures who "God cannot lie," for example or why God never "changes his mind." This is a governing factor to God's disposition, but it is not an outside force. Here is how God thinks and operates everything in the universe:

"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works [operates] ALL THINGS AFTER THE C-O-U-N-S-E-L OF H-I-S O-W-N W-I-L-L" (Eph. 1:11).

God be with you,
Ray

Peace...Mark
Title: Re: free will
Post by: indianabob on July 18, 2009, 05:49:05 PM: Not to be disagreeing with any of the helpful comments posted so far, but

IN contrast to our limited will with all choices constrained by circumstances and by how we are made to function.
It would seem that God at least HAD free will to devise and create the Universe as we see it today.
So, did God make choices about how the laws of physics would interact?
Did God decide without any outside force compelling Him, how the biological systems would function?

In this restricted discussion I would think it may be helpful to consider that option.

We certainly do not have a will that is free from outside influence.
God on the other hand would be the only ONE having choices FREE from outside constraints...

I suppose that the question then becomes; when did God's plan for developing a family come together?
Obeying the counsel of His own will is correct, so did God always have that finalized plan or did God devise it according to the counsel of His own will?

The Bible says that "my Father works and I work" so does that include a preparation for creation?
John 5:17

I know that we believe that God has always existed and has no beginning in time, but the thoughts still enter my mind and inquiring minds want to know.

Anyone please comment or offer correction,
thanks, Bob
Title: Re: free will
Post by: aqrinc on July 18, 2009, 08:12:41 PM: For those inquiring minds, here is some information from Nashville 08 By Ray. This should provide some food for thought or more discussion after a good read.

Nashville Conference 08 - Where Did God Get Knowledge? audio #10 - video #7

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8831.msg73653.html#msg73653

Excerpt from: Where Did God Get Knowledge ?

I asked the question; Did God have a master plan when He created the universe? Did He have something in mind? Where did that come from? It must have been something He always had in mind.

It’s like He said: ‘I always wanted to build the universe.’

And you say: Really for how long?

‘Oh I always dreamt that way.’

Yea?

‘Yea.’

Do you think you will ever do it?

‘Ahh, maybe someday.’

[laugher] Seriously, follow me.

Well is it a good plan.

‘Oh yea, it’s a good plan.’

Well why don’t you do it now?

‘Well okay maybe I will do it now.’

Did God always have this plan? You see we get this thing that God has always been everything that He is. God says He doesn’t change. It doesn‘t say that He says He has all knowledge. Oh yea, well where did He get it? I don’t doubt that God has all knowledge, but where did He get it? ‘Well He always had it.’ Do you have chapter and verse on that?

[Comment: Is, was and always will be] Jesus said that. But He was a created being. He came out from the Father. But now that He did, “He is,” He’s alive today, resurrected from the dead. “He was,” He was the one who created everything, He was the one that died for the sins of man and “He always will be.” That’s true. But even if you were to say that of the Father, that He is and was and always will be, there is still no statement that He always was what He is.

Does God learn? You say, ‘Ray it is sacrilege to talk like that.’ Well I’m sorry, but I think about this and I’ve talked to God about stuff like this and I don’t believe that I’m sacrilege at all. I honor God, I worship God.

Coming in here to learn this stuff this is worship. Waving your hands and falling over backwards and foaming at the mouth, that’s not worship. Learning the truths of God and saying, ‘I believe that and I can see that, this is wise, it is wisdom and this will help me be the kind of person that God wants.’ That is worship. You believe and you obey God, that’s worship.

Does God Learn ?
george. :)
Title: Re: free will
Post by: hillsbororiver on July 18, 2009, 08:46:38 PM: This topic is certainly one that my puny mind with its limited vocabulary cannot even offer an opinion on. I mean to try and put into words the depth, wisdom and power of God Almighty and what He might have been thinking or perhaps being limited in some way or another (what could possibly limit Him unless it was Him so if He is only limited by His own Self is He actually limited?).

That's just me, I am still stuck by the old question;

"Can God create a rock so big and heavy even He can't lift it? ???

;D

Peace,

Joe
Title: Re: free will
Post by: Akira329 on July 18, 2009, 10:08:51 PM: It boggles my mind to think that God had a plan.
I'm assuming here:
He knew what the end would be or he knew what end he wanted to accomplish.
His wisdom comes from the means in which to accomplish that end.
I guess you could say only God's end justify his means.
I hope I'm making sense.

I agree Joe but I think his wisdom wouldn't allow it! That sounds silly too!
Why would he create such a rock?
Why wouldn't he create such a rock?
In all his wisdom wouldn't he eventually create a means in which to lift it?

Antaiwan
Title: Re: free will
Post by: musicman on July 19, 2009, 01:25:08 AM: Well, the rock would be in space where there is no gravity anyway, then I suppose He would be able to lift infinate weight. Although to lift, one must be standing on a platform that can support the weight lifted. Such a platform would have to be quite massive. So there would be gravity. But can't God just take the gravity away and lift with all of his might? Again, it wouldn't take any strength if there is no gravity and there is a platform to push off of. But then, the rock will just go up and never come down. And there's no way god can construct a platform on the other side of the rock which is now going up. god would have to stand upside down to stop it or it would go up and up forever. And he hates standing upside down. Besides, he'd just fall because in his infinate wisdom he did away with gravity. So god has limits. he can't do things that r that stupid.
Title: Re: free will
Post by: cjwood on July 19, 2009, 04:49:58 AM: Quote from: musicman on July 19, 2009, 01:25:08 AM
he can't do things that r that stupid.
ok musicman, i was gonna reply "our musicman has been sipping the ole kool-aid again, BUT, your last statemnt was actually one of the sanest things you've ever said. so, if it took kool-aid to bring about that bit of wisdom, i say drink up my brother!

claudia
Title: Re: free will
Post by: Beloved on July 19, 2009, 09:49:49 AM: Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

God is never limited, Musicman He doe not have to even deal with a rock...he just has to speak the Word that starts the process...He made the Laws for this universe....start a chain reaction and the rock will be formed. All things physical can be changed In the beginning He created the heaven and earth...from there everything was then formed.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD

Mankind are like children: just because they think they see something, they assume they can do something just as well and sometimes better.

Ecc 12:8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

beloved
Title: Re: free will
Post by: Ninny on July 19, 2009, 02:11:59 PM: Claudia, someday everyone may realize that our musicman 8) does have a very good mind under all that chaos!! :o 'nuff said!
Kathy ;)
Title: Re: free will
Post by: Astrapho on July 20, 2009, 03:42:02 PM: Quote
he can't do things that r that stupid.

The best answer to that ridiculous little paradox.
Title: Re: free will
Post by: daywalker on July 20, 2009, 03:52:46 PM: Quote from: Astrapho on July 20, 2009, 03:42:02 PM
Quote
he can't do things that r that stupid.

The best answer to that ridiculous little paradox.

I second that! Haha.
Title: Re: free will
Post by: Craig on July 20, 2009, 03:54:30 PM: My opinion is that as far as puny man goes, it is obvious that we have no free will. To try and box God into the same notion is ridiculous. God's ways are not our ways and we should not try to attribute our knowledge and notions to God.

Craig
Title: Re: free will
Post by: mharrell08 on July 20, 2009, 04:58:16 PM: Our God and Saviour, testifying about Himself (just a few of many):

Ps 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever ['express image of the Father' (2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:15)]

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

I don't believe it is 'boxing God in' when we believe and trust what He tells us.

God tells us He is inherently Good, Righteous, Holy, All-Sovereign, Love, Patient & Longsuffering, Perfect, etc...we could never list all the greatness and magnitude of our loving Father in Heaven, nor His Faithful Son and our Elder Brother, Jesus. And one other very important attribute we are told is God never changes, EVER.

But this does not mean God does not DO anything...All is of God, and He is the cause of all. He is changing all of us from our natural, carnal state to the image of His wonderful Son. That is a great, wonderful change in itself.

But who and what God is, that is what God tells us DOES NOT CHANGE. He was always Love, is Love, and will never stop being Love (is/was/will be).

Is He 'bound' by this? Is He 'free' to be any other way? Is He 'free' to be evil instead of Good...is He 'free' to be hate instead of Love?

This is why 'free will' is an absolute myth...it attempts to give leeway that God will change from who and what He is...from Love & Perfection to 'whatever He frees Himself to be'.

But God Himself stops all of that by stating that He, Himself, works all through the counsel of His Will...that doesn't just mean His plan & intention, but who & what He is, as His plan & intention is a direct result of who & what He is...a Patient, Loving God who is Holy & Righteous in all His doing.

Remember what He told Moses: God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM [Exodus 3:14]. Is He 'free' to be otherwise?

If He is 'free' to be otherwise, then He isn't who He says He is all throughout His own Word.

Marques
Title: Re: free will
Post by: ez2u on July 20, 2009, 04:59:10 PM: after reading Marques and Marky post I believe free will is an illusion of mankind. It isn't real. I think this because of what Jesus said " I do the will of My Father"
That makes me think this where the answer is and the illusion or delusion of manking ( its funny as i am typing this post i keep hitting the g instead of the d in mankind, interesting...) :o Free will is an illusion of our thinking it isn't in the Father nor the Son because it isn't real. My question was stupid full of what could have been controversy. Thank God it was handle in a Godly fashion. We can have a intellect mind and be so ungodly. Forgive me I don't know if i ready to post i need to grow more. peggy
Title: Re: free will
Post by: Craig on July 20, 2009, 05:36:03 PM: I disagree Marques. A statement of fact is not also a statement of limitation to God.

Free will for us is a myth, because we cannot do anything that God has not willed and caused, we are limited by Gods will for our lives and teachings in our lives.

Who limits God?

We are being formed in the image of God "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil". We know good and evil but we cannot control good and evil. God can. God is a just loving and has all the attributes he tells us in his word. God will never change, he is the same and will never change. But that doesn't mean He couldn't? If he couldn't, then who/what is limiting Him?

No one or nothing limits God, He limits Himself the same as we will learn to do as we become like Him. There will be a time when we not only know good and evil, but will only do good and we will not change, because we will be perfected in His image.

Is God "free" to do otherwise? Of course, but will he? Not a chance, and you can take that to the bank.

What I mean by the box in my previous post is, all the words we have written to describe God only use our human words and understanding to attribute our feelings and emotions to God puts Him into a box that He cannot possibly fit in.

Craig
Title: Re: free will
Post by: Ninny on July 20, 2009, 05:46:00 PM: Peggy, you know if we didn't always do things a little wrong and a little immature at times we would never grow, we would never see the beauty in God' amazing love!! there is now therefore no condemnation! If there is now no condemnation, then we shouldn't condemn ourselves..
God's love surpasses any and all blunders we feel we have made along the way! If I counted every stupid mistake and stupid, immature thing I've done in my life, woo! You just keep walking, girl...You stand right up and keep on going, and just keep on going.....God will do the rest in you!! If it wasn't so...I'd have been gone a long time ago....
Kathy ;)
Title: Re: free will
Post by: mharrell08 on July 20, 2009, 05:50:56 PM: Quote from: Craig on July 20, 2009, 05:36:03 PM
No one or nothing limits God, He limits Himself the same as we will learn to do as we become like Him.

I think this is the root in where/how we disagree...I believe who & what He is (Love, Holy, etc.) limits Him, not freely but caused by His Holy Character. I do not believe He can 'freely' be what He is not (ie. sinful, corruptible, etc.).

Although we disagree, I respect your opinion...knowing you from time on the forum, I know you revere and respect our Lord and this is what you believe regarding Him. I can respect that...we all only know in part [1 Cor 13:9].

Thanks,

Marques
Title: Re: free will
Post by: Marky Mark on July 20, 2009, 05:59:15 PM: Does Father have a free will?
As Ray states,we just do not know.

THE FATHER'S WILL? . . . . . . . . . . . Mobile Conference 2006

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html

We read these things, God doesn’t change, but nobody thinks about it. It’s very important that God does never change and will never change. Why do you think that’s important? Would it be better if He was flexible and changed a little bit? You don’t improve perfection. Was God always perfect? I don’t know.
We learn. Did God ever learn? Now He knows everything, but did He ever learn? I don’t know. It doesn’t say. But we know this, by the time He made the creation He either always was or reached perfection. How could an imperfect God (I don’t mean flawed or evil, but a God that was not perfect), how could He make a creation of humanity and say I’ve still got to work out a few bugs, in this theory of what we are doing and where we are going?

Do understand I say these things humbly, I don’t mean to be the less bit demeaning, when I say I don’t know if God ever learned. We know, that He knows now. So how do we know if He learned? He doesn’t tell us. But in one sense it doesn’t matter, all we know is He’s perfect. How does He know He’s perfect? Well in order to claim perfection, you have to know what it is. He would have to have such a vast knowledge of everything, to know whether there ever existed a possibility of ever becoming better than He is. Think about that. He knows so much, I mean one centimeter of brain could contain trillions and trillions of encyclopedias on end. He knows so much, that He knows not only there is no one else like Him, He says I’m the only God,” (1 Tim. 1:17; Jude 1:25). There is nothing better He can achieve than what He is. He’s perfect, now whether He always was or achieved it, there your brain only goes so far.

Peace...Mark
Title: Re: free will
Post by: Astrapho on July 20, 2009, 07:29:37 PM: Quote
He’s perfect, now whether He always was or achieved it, there your brain only goes so far.

Yes. He's just that high above us. :D

In a way, I can't wait for the day of the Lord just so we can ask Him all these questions. Hahah! ;D

But in the meantime, I don't think we'll ever really find out. Scripture wasn't too big on explaining this part, like Ray says.
Title: Re: free will
Post by: hillsbororiver on July 20, 2009, 07:54:07 PM: Quote from: Astrapho on July 20, 2009, 07:29:37 PM
Quote
He’s perfect, now whether He always was or achieved it, there your brain only goes so far.

Yes. He's just that high above us. :D

In a way, I can't wait for the day of the Lord just so we can ask Him all these questions. Hahah! ;D

I can't wait for that Day either! What a gloriously bright Day it will be, as we will no longer be stumbling about on darkened crooked paths with scales on our eyes and plugged up ears. ;)

Remember when Philip made this request of Jesus?

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Read the rest of the chapter to get His answer, in a nutshell Jesus answers that our Father has the same love, mercy and compassion that He (Jesus) does, only greater!

I do think that when we attempt to use earthly thoughts, ideas and language to describe our heavenly Father we will have as much success as taking a box of Crayola's (even the 64 colors) and drawing an accurate picture of Him.

Peace,

Joe
Title: Re: free will
Post by: aqrinc on July 21, 2009, 01:36:21 AM: To this point GOD Has Revealed some things about Himself, the revealed is what we know. Everything else is purely speculation, because we just cannot define GOD except by what HE has revealed of Himself.

Here below is just a little bit of what GOD Says, about puny man trying to figure HIM out.

Job 38: 1-18 (KJV)
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

Continuing to the end where GOD Asks one last question.

Job 40: 1-2 (KJV)
1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

To sum it all up, those scripture should teach us that:

We ought not to think too highly of ourselves, and try to constrain GOD to our miniscule view of HIM.

george. :)
Title: Re: free will
Post by: indianabob on July 21, 2009, 03:54:00 AM: In my possible human ignorance I agree with Craig.

God chooses to be good and He doesn't change. He says so and we can depend on that statement.
As humans we cannot yet do that. We cannot choose to be good apart from God's influence.
It may not apply in this thread, but didn't Jesus choose to be good, with God's spirit and power?

It seems a little misleading to presume that God is good because He had no choice.
I thing that God made a choice or choices and sticks to them. That is also what we are learning to do.

bob
Title: Re: free will
Post by: mharrell08 on July 21, 2009, 07:17:44 AM: I believe God makes choices and chooses to be good as well...but those choices are 'caused' by who and what He is. Not any external cause but an internal cause. Just because the 'cause' is internally, does not negate the fact that a cause exists.

God IS Love...not just doing loving things or displaying loving attributes...no, He IS Love.

Can He 'freely' be something He is not? Can Love, in itself, become hate? Can light, in itself, become darkness? They are polar opposites, and God tells us this, Himself, all through His Word. We know God has a knowledge of these things, there is no disputing that, but that is not what the subject is.

Love cannot be hate, love cannot change itself to become hate...and as we understand free will to mean, the choice has to be 'free'.

The church believes God has free will too...any and all theologians will unanimously say: Yes, God has free will. This is how they believe He 'changes' from who He is, Love, and change to hate of His enemies which then leads to torturing of most of His creation for all eternity.

Exodus 3:14 ...God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM

We will all be made into His image one day, we will all be made perfect...but Love will be the cause of all that we do, just like our Heavenly Father. And there will be no 'free choice' to be or do otherwise, because we will BE LOVE as our Father IS LOVE.

...God IS Love... 1 John 4:8 & 1 John 4:16

Marques

Late addition:

2 Tim 2:11-13 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with Him, we shall also live with Him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him: if we deny Him, He also will deny us: If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny Himself [KJV].

2 Tim2:11-13 The saying is sure and worthy of confidence: If we have died with Him, we shall also live with Him. If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny and disown and reject Him, He will also deny and disown and reject us. If we are faithless [do not believe and are untrue to Him], He remains true (faithful to His Word and His righteous character), for He cannot deny Himself. [AMP]

Faithful to His Word and His righteous character