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=> Testimonies / Prayer Requests / Fellowship => Topic started by: carol v on August 12, 2009, 06:35:47 PM
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Don't know why I sent this to poor Ray. Last thing he needs is another long email. Should have just gotten it off my chest here. So here it is -- my testimony.
Dear Ray,
I hope you are doing better and don't mean to add to your workload. I've come full circle to total confusion.
When I discovered the Lake of Fire 5 years ago -- I thought I had been let inside of the most incredible spiritual truths I had ever known. I devoured every word you wrote and every audio produced. I read all of Mike's stuff too. I even had a slight notion that I might actually be one of the elect because of these great secrets of scripture God was showing me.
I devoted hours and hours to study, prayer, participating in the forum and self-flagellating myself to humility. I prayed for truth. I beat myself up for the slightest sin.
When you and Mike fell out. I continued to read you both for a very long time. I eventually came down with you on the Christ Made Sin thing, but it was a long road to get there. I was fellowshipping with Mike's group on Sunday afternoons on Skype and participating in your forum.
Then Mike took the Christ made sin thing and changed it to the Christ is carnal thing. Maybe he was saying that all along but to me, he hadn't. Many of us quit fellowshipping with Mike then. His website closed down because those running it disagreed with his teaching as well.
But a few of us started our own skype fellowship and invited others. First there was an endless argument about the new man/old man that ended with a split between those two debaters.
The group decided to study Revelation together. Ha ha ha ha. I guess you know how that went.
One of us wanted to study the man of perdition being a real man. The rest of us didn't. I won't go on about what all the problems were but I was receiving pages and pages of emails every day of endless scriptural arguments.
The forum was no better. I used to go on the forum and actually offer a lot of answers to questions. I was under the perception that I actually knew something. Most of it was based on stuff I had learned through you, Mike and Andrew Jukes.
Then one of our fellowship members rebelled at the man-of-perdition-is-real thing and quit. We were all ready to bail but he was first. But before quitting he read your Two Towers papers, and declared you a heretic. Then he read some Jukes and declared him a heretic, Since my favorite book was The Types of Genesis, his calling Jukes a heretic too was even more confusing.
Every teacher I had listened to was a heretic? So when I was praying and praying and praying and praying for years for truth, I received heresy? Cool. I am the strong delusion. Thanks so much God.
I just couldn't stand the arguing anymore.
I became unable to study or read the Bible at all. Apparently there are not two people on the planet that agree. The endless scriptural arguments made my brain freeze.
Who are these elect? I can't find them. Who in the heck are the members of the body of Christ and how am I supposed to be a part of them? Ain't any in my West Texas town. All I know are hell-believers.
The only person I ever met in my 5 years in this journey since the Lake of Fire series that I thought was probably elect was Willard Rogers. A kind and gentle soul to me but I know he was a friend you had a falling out with so your opinion is probably different.
Last time I read Matthew I had no clue what a single word of it meant anymore. Gibberish. I used to read Matthew thinking I had a clue. I was just so-o-o-o spiritual.
THEN THIS:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-07-27-baby-killed_N.htm
Now one thing I believe in is God's sovereignty but I have always had a problem with your explanations of God not forcing us to sin but simply creating us to sin. Before I started reading the Lake of Fire, my problem was that people gave God credit for the good stuff and no responsibility for the bad.
I called it my "unanswered prayer" argument. Don't all victims of rape, murder, kidnapping, war and violence pray? Aren't we all praying in the trenches. If God chooses not to answer prayer, doesn't that make Him responsible. If God doesn't answer the prayers of the victims then isn't God also guilty of the crime.
Ray, there is a woman in San Antonio that has decapitated and eaten the brain of her infant. I feel nothing but overwhelming pity and sadness for her. Where is God?
How can I pray?
I have been walking around for years kicking myself because of the stupidest stuff. OH NO. I wrote a school excuse saying my son was sick when he actually came home way too late last night and is just tired. Will God ever excuse this awful lie?
OH NO. I dropped the F-bomb in front of the teenagers again when that 18-wheeler was slipping into my lane. Will God ever excuse me. What an awful, awful person I am. Terrible, terrible. Just a wad of carnal flesh am I.
Well when does God have to answer. I spent decades arguing with God over the hell doctrine before reading the Lake of Fire and now I'm arguing with him again. When does God have to answer?
After 5 decades of migraine that have controlled my life I was finally screaming at God a few weeks ago to either heal me or kill me. I can't take it anymore. He did neither so I went for new meds and started even another natural treatment plan too. If the country collapses and I lose air-conditioning and medication I will eat the oleander. It will be self-euthanasia and not suicide. I will not make it. Is death by oleander really painful? I'm picturing foaming at the mouth with horrific gut pain -- all better than migraine.
Who the hell knows the truth? Where are the elect? Why can no one agree? Why is the Word so convoluted in translation that the meaning is completely obscure?
Why am I kicking myself about still dropping the F-bomb when there is a woman in San Antonio who is so sadly, tragically ill that she would decapitate her infant and eat the poor thing's brains and a few toes. Yes, she ate some toes too.
Hey God. Who do you answer to? I used to say, just like you taught me Ray, that it's one big character building journey here on earth as God creates us into His image. But GOD. There is a woman in San Antonio eating her baby's brains.
I can't read the Word. I can't pray for help for anything. I still believe but it is surrounded by complete confusion.
I only go to your forum to check on your health now. There they all are, arguing the fine points of scripture as if they have a clue. I have taken up gardening and arguing with God again. I don't understand. And frankly, I am so tired of listening to and arguing myself about the fine points of scripture.
This 'elect' thing is laughable. I actually started laughing out loud this morning at myself for ever thinking I was part of the elect at one time. That is so funny.
God, there is a woman in San Antonio eating her baby's brains and toes. Did we really need that?
Makes me want to drop a bunch of F-bombs and go check my tomatoes.
I still love you though Ray. But after 5 years of study, I understand less than ever.
Carol V
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Just got off the phone with Ray about this email. Ray will be answering soon.
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Dear Carol,
Thankyou for your candid and straight from the Heart testimony, I really enjoyed it. All of us, that most definitely includes me, as well, have a war going on inside ourselves, a carnal war caused by our fleshly nature, the flesh is enmity with God. Regarding who is of the Elect, I don't know, we won't really know until we endure to the end of our lives(Age). I'm satisfied to leave that in God's hands. I've learned many things from studying Ray's material, sometimes I don't grasp all of it, sometimes I don't retain all of it and sometimes I don't remember all of it. Also, By the Grace of God, most of us haven't done anything as horrific as what you describe the Woman doing to her infant. By the Grace of God we are not like Adolph Hitler, Charles Manson, Joseph Stalin, Jeffrey Dahmer and many other individuals who committed horrific acts. Under the exact circumstances and causes, we would have been like the above.
I'm approaching this learning and knowledge of everything, Spirit-Wise, as a personal journey, not concerned whether I can argue better or know more or think I'm more righteous, because I'm refuse, garbage or fleshly filth that only God has the power to clean up when he wills it. Do I have the desire to act better, think better and treat others better, of course, but we can't do it on our own, if we could, we would have done it by now. Jesus tells us to Love Our Enemies and pray for those who persecute us, no one can follow that instruction without God causing us to do so, a simple Scripture like that, easy to understand, but I never met anyone in person who practices that. The fact you are here and desire to know the Truth with the right attitude, tells me that God is working with you in this Age. I've talked to many people throughout the course of my life and they don't even care to find out what's true or false. Apparently God hasn't even caused them to even care enough to find out. When Pontius Pilate asked Jesus: " What is Truth," did he even really care or was that just an excuse that no one can really find it or it's only relative. Our Sufferings, Trials and Tribulations are part of the process we have to endure, in this Age and/or the Age to come before we can become part of God's Spiritual Family.
I'm sorry if there's anything that I have done to cause you distress, I didn't mean it. Sometimes in life, I get confused about God's plan and purpose and it seems like some kind of nightmare, I will eventually wake up from. Anyway, hope to here more from you, hope your migraines go away, don't know how your able to tolerate such repetitive pain. Hang in there and continue to dine at this Spiritual table provided by God through Ray.
Kind Regards, Samson.
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Dear Carol,
I am very, very sorry to hear about those migraines. One of my sons suffers terribly from what the medical people
term ' cluster headaches'. He has suffered with then for a number of years now. He is a grown man, tough as nails,
but when he has an attack, it instantly disables him and he cries like a baby. I cannot hardly bear the thought of him getting the next one.
The next thing on the agenda for him is to try to get oxygen prescribed so he can lay down with the oxygen mask and rest.
Maybe oxygen will be of some help for you. No one can feel another person's pain, but I can understand a little of yours.
God Bless,
Ches
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[Ray's reply]
Dear Carol: It's Thursday, 3:41 a.m., I can't sleep, so I thought I would answer your email before dozens on the Forum give your their version of wisdom that will solve all of your problems in one simple reading. I will make some comments in your email, as you raise several interesting dilemmas that concern us all...
Dear Ray,
I hope you are doing better and don't mean to add to your workload. I've come full circle to total confusion.
COMMENT: I am okay. Not great, but okay. I haven't had a really good day this year, but I am not depressed nor discouraged, nor confused.
When I discovered the Lake of Fire 5 years ago -- I thought I had been let inside of the most incredible spiritual truths I had ever known. I devoured every word you wrote and every audio produced. I read all of Mike's stuff too. I even had a slight notion that I might actually be one of the elect because of these great secrets of scripture God was showing me.
COMMENT: And well you may be. My Lake of Fire series is still 99.44% the same as it was ten years ago when I began writing it. There are "most incredible spiritual truths" in this series. Not because I wrote them, but because they are SCRIPTURE.
I devoted hours and hours to study, prayer, participating in the forum and self-flagellating myself to humility. I prayed for truth. I beat myself up for the slightest sin.
COMMENT: I can say "ditto," except that I do not "beat myself up for the slightest sin" anymore. You are where I was over forty years ago (thirty years before we started bible-truths.com). Both Dennis and I can identify with what you are writing and feeling. You are not alone in this strange journey of the human experience.
When you and Mike fell out. I continued to read you both for a very long time. I eventually came down with you on the Christ Made Sin thing, but it was a long road to get there. I was fellowshipping with Mike's group on Sunday afternoons on Skype and participating in your forum.
COMMENT: It may come as a shock for most to know that doctrine was not the most important reason that I took Mike's material or reference to it off of my site. I think Mike wanted a following. I think he wanted to be thought of as a great spiritual leader. I think he though of himself as playing second fiddle to me and/or bible-truths.com. But what he didn't fully realize was that his notoriety came not through his site, but mine. And yes, at that same time and immediately following our separation, some of his new "revelations" were among the most damnable heresy and blasphemy of Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit that I have ever encountered in my life (IMO). There was no way that I could continue to support such utter unscriptural swill. It did not take years or "a long road to get there" for me. But then again, God had already grounded us in the Truths of God's Word. I did not need to go back and be re-grounded.
Then Mike took the Christ made sin thing and changed it to the Christ is carnal thing. Maybe he was saying that all along but to me, he hadn't. Many of us quit fellowshipping with Mike then. His website closed down because those running it disagreed with his teaching as well.
COMMENT: I have nearly fifty pages of notes on the theme: "Was Jesus Made Sin," which I will put into a full article (God willing). The teaching that Jesus Christ was the very personification of sin itself, is the most damnable piece of heresy next to "23 Minutes in Hell" by Bill Weise (which I am also writing a full article on) that I have read in my entire 68 year life!
But a few of us started our own skype fellowship and invited others. First there was an endless argument about the new man/old man that ended with a split between those two debaters.
COMMENT: That is always a potential problem, Carol. All too many hear and learn a few basic truths of God and His Word and then fancy themselves teachers and spiritual leaders. I don't know anything about Mike's site closing down, but I do know that Dennis and I have had to close down some site pages that have plagiarized my material and then added to it their personal touch of heresy. There are all to many who are:
"Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm" (I Tim. 1:7).
The group decided to study Revelation together. Ha ha ha ha. I guess you know how that went.
COMMENT: Revelation is not a book for beginners and spiritual minors.
One of us wanted to study the man of perdition being a real man. The rest of us didn't. I won't go on about what all the problems were but I was receiving pages and pages of emails every day of endless scriptural arguments.
The forum was no better. I used to go on the forum and actually offer a lot of answers to questions. I was under the perception that I actually knew something. Most of it was based on stuff I had learned through you, Mike and Andrew Jukes.
COMMENT: Our bible-truths Forum serves a good and useful purpose, but trust me, THERE IS A REASON WHY WE DON'T ALLOW PERSONAL TEACHING OF PERSONAL DOCTRINES on our Forum.
Then one of our fellowship members rebelled at the man-of-perdition-is-real thing and quit. We were all ready to bail but he was first. But before quitting he read your Two Towers papers, and declared you a heretic. Then he read some Jukes and declared him a heretic, Since my favorite book was The Types of Genesis, his calling Jukes a heretic too was even more confusing.
COMMENT: About the only real criticism I have received from my Towers paper have come from conspiracy theorists, who have bought into the idea that God had nothing to do with this disaster, and that the US Government brought down these towers by means of demolition. I never went into whether anyone in our Government knew in advance that this attack was coming, but to suggest that the Towers fell because had demolition bombs planted throughout the buildings starting at ground level and even below, is utter nonsense. I saw the buildings fall on live television with my own eyes, and they did not fall because the foundations were bombed out from under them, THEY FELL FROM THE TOP DOWN at the point of impact by the jetliners!
Every teacher I had listened to was a heretic? So when I was praying and praying and praying and praying for years for truth, I received heresy? Cool. I am the strong delusion. Thanks so much God.
COMMENT: We ALL were taught heresy, Carol. If we never went into Babylon the Great (Mother of spiritual harlots), God could not have called us OUT! We should "thank God," but not sarcastically.
Listen to me, Carol: I see you now as being further along in your understanding than you were years ago. Don't let the reality of this worlds sins and evils discourage you from holding on to God's great spiritual truths and plan for our eternal destiny.
I too have prayed hard (especially these past ten years since staring bible-truths) to get and keep sin out of my life. This along with helping others see the Truth of God's Word, IS MY LIFE, MY ONLY LIFE. So what "thanks" from God do I receive? A miserable and painful disease that is rotting my very body out from under me? Is that how I should be looking at my trial? It could be many times worse. The pain could be many times worse. I could have died last year already. My family medical doctor (Dr. Alin Sherman) told me three weeks ago that he never in a million years thought that he would see me alive in July 2009. I'm still here, and I'm still trying to do God's work. I don't know what next week or next month holds for me. I am in constant pain, and I don't sleep well at all, and I am extremely enervated and exhausted most of the time. So should I too say: "Thanks so much God?" Should I follow the advice of Job's wife and "CURSE God and die?" I don't think so. I am in this for the long haul. I had rather be like Job when he corrected his wife:
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive E-V-I-L? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Carol: you are now "receiving EVIL at the hand of God." Joseph, David, Daniel, Paul, they all "received EVIL at the hand of God." We are no different. Don't let it discourage you or destroy you. Throw yourself on God's mercy and He will give you peace. In my present condition and trial, I can't tell you the satisfaction I receive from those who are praying for me; supporting me; and suffering right along with me. It brings tears to my eyes, not self pity, tears of joy.
God is calling out a people a "chosen Elect FEW," and at least part of that is being accomplished through this ministry. How great is that? Does that not deserve a little (or maybe a lot) of suffering? Should I not have to put my own money where my mouth is concerning this spiritual walk with God? Don't let anyone write you off, Carol, just because your trial seems greater than you can presently bear. Don't forget the words of Paul:
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
God can make you much stronger through this trial, Carol. Fair weather Christians are a dime a dozen as they say, but what about in times of adversity?
Pro 24:10 If you faint in the day of adversity, thy strength is small.
This is the time for your victory, Carol, not your defeat.
[continued below]
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[continued from part 1]
I just couldn't stand the arguing anymore.
I became unable to study or read the Bible at all. Apparently there are not two people on the planet that agree. The endless scriptural arguments made my brain freeze.
Who are these elect? I can't find them. Who in the heck are the members of the body of Christ and how am I supposed to be a part of them? Ain't any in my West Texas town. All I know are hell-believers.
COMMENT: There are members of the body of Christ on our Forum, Carol. Maybe not all, but they are there, and they will all be praying for you just as they have been praying for me.
The only person I ever met in my 5 years in this journey since the Lake of Fire series that I thought was probably elect was Willard Rogers. A kind and gentle soul to me but I know he was a friend you had a falling out with so your opinion is probably different.
COMMENT: I assure you that my "falling out" as you put it with Williard was not based on "opinion."
Last time I read Matthew I had no clue what a single word of it meant anymore. Gibberish. I used to read Matthew thinking I had a clue. I was just so-o-o-o spiritual.
THEN THIS:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-07-27-baby-killed_N.htm
Now one thing I believe in is God's sovereignty but I have always had a problem with your explanations of God not forcing us to sin but simply creating us to sin. Before I started reading the Lake of Fire, my problem was that people gave God credit for the good stuff and no responsibility for the bad.
I called it my "unanswered prayer" argument. Don't all victims of rape, murder, kidnapping, war and violence pray? Aren't we all praying in the trenches. If God chooses not to answer prayer, doesn't that make Him responsible. If God doesn't answer the prayers of the victims then isn't God also guilty of the crime.
COMMENT: Actually, not all victims of rape, murder or kidnapping, etc. pray. And yes, God is responsible for His entire creation, but God is guilty of NO CRIME.
Ray, there is a woman in San Antonio that has decapitated and eaten the brain of her infant. I feel nothing but overwhelming pity and sadness for her. Where is God?
How can I pray?
COMMENT: This is something you will have to work out with God. I am aware of and have been for a long time, the evils of this world and the sins of humanity, yet I pray constantly. With you, the stark reality of how sick humans can get, was brought home by this recent tragedy of a woman killing her infant. With me, I think the reality of man's inhumanity struck home many many years ago when I was watching a movie in which some mobsters took this man captive and took an electric drill and started drilling holes through his knees. The reality of that evil stuck with me for a long time. I don't have a complete answer for such intense evil in God's wisdom, but I yet hope to find the answer in the Scriptures.
I have been walking around for years kicking myself because of the stupidest stuff. OH NO. I wrote a school excuse saying my son was sick when he actually came home way too late last night and is just tired. Will God ever excuse this awful lie?
OH NO. I dropped the F-bomb in front of the teenagers again when that 18-wheeler was slipping into my lane. Will God ever excuse me. What an awful, awful person I am. Terrible, terrible. Just a wad of carnal flesh am I.
Well when does God have to answer. I spent decades arguing with God over the hell doctrine before reading the Lake of Fire and now I'm arguing with him again. When does God have to answer?
COMMENT: We cannot judge God, Carol. We may question what He does and how He does it, but we can't find Him guilty of any crime. God is not a criminal. And yes, we are "a wad of carnal flesh," but God does not condemn us for this:
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
I really hope you will be able to attend our November Bible Conference, as it will be talking all about YOU. That is all about all of you who attend. I am going to talk about just such things as to whether we should always be walking around with a cloud over our heads as though we are not worthy to even approach God in our needs. I will be talking about "FORGETTING the past..." as Paul instructed us.
After 5 decades of migraine that have controlled my life I was finally screaming at God a few weeks ago to either heal me or kill me. I can't take it anymore. He did neither so I went for new meds and started even another natural treatment plan too. If the country collapses and I lose air-conditioning and medication I will eat the oleander. It will be self-euthanasia and not suicide. I will not make it. Is death by oleander really painful? I'm picturing foaming at the mouth with horrific gut pain -- all better than migraine.
COMMENT: My wife has had RSD (regional sympathetic dystrophy syndrome) for about ten years now. When she worked for the Police Chief of North Miami Beach for years on the computer, she developed carpel tunnel. She had a simple out-patient operation, but the pain never left, but rather intensified. After visiting many experts she was finally diagnosed correctly. The pain is constant and extremely intense. She would have had her arm amputated years ago, except that it doesn't solve the pain problem. It moves through the body--to her legs (she has been in a wheelchair more often than not in recent weeks, her breasts, her other arm and hand, her face, and her head. She too has intense headaches for months at a time. At one time she took a half dozen medications at the same time (headache pills that cost $16 per pill). Twelve thousand dollars a year in Oxycontin (up to 300 mgs a day). She has cut down considerably on strong pain killers in recent years, and just endures more pain. She sleeps normally twenty to forty minutes a night. But she does then sleep sometimes a couple of hours during the day, maybe averaging 2-3 hours of sleep daily. Yet she feels bad that she can't do more for me and my condition, when in reality she does everything for me. She prepares all my special meals and juices, along with putting together the 12 to 14 groups of supplements I take daily. When she's around people, she smiles and no one knows there is a thing wrong with her. My daughter is bi-polar. Dennis' son is bi-polar. My wife has contemplated suicide many times in recent years. Her daughter is the main reason she hasn't done it. Life is hard. I am not a stranger to pain and suffering. But this too will pass.
Who the hell knows the truth? Where are the elect? Why can no one agree? Why is the Word so convoluted in translation that the meaning is completely obscure?
COMMENT: I KNOW THE TRUTH, and others do as well. We don't need to agree on every single issue in life in order to know the truth. Even Paul and Barnabas had a huge disagreement at one time in their ministry. The "Elect" are made up of just such people. And the Word is not "so convoluted in translation that the meaning is completely obscure." Except for the words "hell" and "eternal," there are very few convoluted translations. Nonetheless, it does take the Spirit of God to understand spiritual things.
Why am I kicking myself about still dropping the F-bomb when there is a woman in San Antonio who is so sadly, tragically ill that she would decapitate her infant and eat the poor thing's brains and a few toes. Yes, she ate some toes too.
Hey God. Who do you answer to? I used to say, just like you taught me Ray, that it's one big character building journey here on earth as God creates us into His image. But GOD. There is a woman in San Antonio eating her baby's brains.
I can't read the Word. I can't pray for help for anything. I still believe but it is surrounded by complete confusion.
COMMENT: God is fully aware of this woman in Texas who killed her child, but God doesn't answer to anyone. And God is not on trial at the bar of human justice. For sure that woman's child is no longer suffering, and will never again suffer like that for all eternity. Our lack of total understanding does not qualify us to judge God or His ways. One day we will know all the truth concerning all things, and the time is coming when "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4). All these evils are coming to an end, Carol. Don't be discouraged. God will see you through this.
I only go to your forum to check on your health now. There they all are, arguing the fine points of scripture as if they have a clue. I have taken up gardening and arguing with God again. I don't understand. And frankly, I am so tired of listening to and arguing myself about the fine points of scripture.
COMMENT: Well, I'm afraid I have to agree with you on some of this, albeit, I think I do understand a great deal of what God is doing and why.
This 'elect' thing is laughable. I actually started laughing out loud this morning at myself for ever thinking I was part of the elect at one time. That is so funny.
God, there is a woman in San Antonio eating her baby's brains and toes. Did we really need that?
Makes me want to drop a bunch of F-bombs and go check my tomatoes.
COMMENT: No, Carol, "this elect thing" is not laughable. It may be laughable that some of the greatest heretics who ever lived fancied themselves among God's elect, however, that does not negate the fact that there was and is a chosen Elect few in whom God has placed His Holy Spirit.
I still love you though Ray. Still send money every month for the web site. But after 5 years of study, I understand less than ever.
Carol Vandiver
Sweetwater, TX
COMMENT: Well, Thank You, Carol, and I love you too. Actually you don't "understand less than ever." You are merely more discouraged than ever, but this too shall pass. And don't let anyone judge you regarding your discouragement. Many proud and boastful believers have fallen by the wayside when the shoe is on the other foot as they say. I thank God and all who have been praying for me, that after three days and three nights in the heart of the earth a year ago this month, I have not been depressed or discouraged since. I have no choice--I must be strong for all those who have come to a knowledge of the truth through my ministry. I cannot let terminal cancer or anything else discourage me from remaining faithful to God and His word. Your salvation is closer now, Carol, than when you first believed.
This is no time to throw in the towel. It is now 6:15 and the sun is coming up over Mobile bay. It's a new day. It can be a bright shiny day, if we allow the spirit of God to uphold us in our trials. This is not some strange new thing that has come upon you, Carol. It's just that you are more honest than most who will be reading your email. Return to God and He will return to you. I'm praying for you, Carol. Others will likewise be praying for you.
May God be with you always,
Ray
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Dennis,
I have to say I have fought back the tears while reading this...and for Carol..the pain of life is so real. We all have pain and discouragement in different degrees. What Ray has said in response is packed full of years of painfully gained wisdom and understanding..thank you for placing this here for us all to read. It kind of hits home for me and I know for others as well.
Kathy
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I can add nothing to Ray's reply or even offer any wisdom to you Carol other than this.
Don't doubt in the darkness what God has given you in the light.
I learned one or two nuggets from my former teachers in Babylon and this is one of them. And I think it's true.
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Isolation and despair meet empathy and hope.
This topic really underlines the bittersweet experience that is this earthly journey.
Peace,
Joe
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Isolation and despair meet empathy and hope.
This topic really underlines the bittersweet experience that is this earthly journey.
Peace,
Joe
Amen to that Joe
There was a time of about 5 years I suffered cluster head aches. But I haven't had one in 15 years that I can remember. I do recall in the mist of them wanting to end it all by whatever means possible. Good thing I had disposed of my handguns ;)
Carol I also will be praying for you for relief in the head aches and in God providing peace and clarity in your walk. I also check in with Mike and was very distraught when Ray and Mike ceased to fellowship with each other. I also remember Willard's gentle spirit and miss it. In all the confusion I hold on to this verse.
Proverbs 3:5-6
Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not rely on your own understanding; 6 think about Him in all your ways, and He will guide you on the right paths.
And this verse has been my security blanket;
Psalms 30:5
For His anger lasts only a moment, but His favor, a lifetime. Weeping may spend the night, but there is joy in the morning.
Blessings
Tom
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Hello Carol,
Don't be discouraged, you're on the right track.
"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22)
"Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer" (Rom. 12:12)
You're not alone! I'll keep you in my prayers. :)
Peace,
Christopher. 8)
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i have no words of wisdom to offer, just felt compelled to thank God for the love and faithfulness of Ray, and all here on the forum. So many lives are better because of the love and truth found here. I can really relate to alot of the feelings expressed on this post myself. When i get really down and confused, i just remind myself, "this is not my home." I am just trying to keep my focus on the horizon knowing that each day that passes, is a day closer to the reconcilliation of all things. In the end, that is all that matters. May God richly bless you all.
lauriellen
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I have no words of wisdom of my own, but here are some verses from the little read prophet Habbakuk that may echo what you seem to be feeling. (from the New Living Translation)
Hab 1:2 How long, O Lord, must I call for help? But you do not listen! "Violence!" I cry, but you do not come to save.
Hab 1:3 Must I forever see this sin and misery all around me? Wherever I look, I see destruction and violence. I am surrounded by people who love to argue and fight.
Hab 1:4 The law has become paralyzed and useless, and there is no justice given in the courts. The wicked far outnumber the righteous, and justice is perverted with bribes and trickery.
The Lord gives Habbakuk a vision of what judgment is to come, at which Habbakuk protests once more. Then the Lord reminds him that everything will happen at the appointed time.
Hab 2:2 Then the Lord said to me, "Write my answer in large, clear letters on a tablet, so that a runner can read it and tell everyone else.
Hab 2:3 But these things I plan won't happen right away. Slowly, steadily, surely, the time approaches when the vision will be fulfilled. If it seems slow, wait patiently, for it will surely take place. It will not be delayed.
The book then ends with a prayer by Habbakuk.
Hab 3:17 Even though the fig trees have no blossoms, and there are no grapes on the vine; even though the olive crop fails, and the fields lie empty and barren; even though the flocks die in the fields, and the cattle barns are empty,
Hab 3:18 yet I will rejoice in the Lord! I will be joyful in the God of my salvation.
Hab 3:19 The Sovereign Lord is my strength! He will make me as surefooted as a deer and bring me safely over the mountains.
This brings me peace. Hopefully it will to you and others as well.
God bless you,
Eric
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Hi Carol V,
Just rest in HIS SABBATH, we do have this rest; if we stop working our own works.
Heb 4: 1-16 (CLV)
1 We may be afraid then, lest at some time, a promise being left of entering into His stopping, anyone of you may be seeming to be deficient."
2 For we also have been evangelized, even as those also. But the word heard does not benefit those hearers, not having been blended together with faith in those who hear."
3 Then we who believe are entering into the stopping, according as He has declared, "As I swear in My indignation, 'If they shall be entering into My stopping-!'although the works occur from the disruption of the world."
4 For He has declared somewhere concerning the seventh thus: And God stops "on the seventh day from all His works."
5 And in this again, "If they shall be entering into My stopping-!"
6 Since, then, it is left for some to be entering into it, and those to whom the evangel was formerly brought did not enter because of stubbornness,
7 He is again specifying a certain day, "Today"-saying in David after so much time, according as has been declared before, "Today, if ever His voice you should be hearing, You should not be hardening your hearts."
8 For if Joshua causes them to stop, He would not have spoken concerning another day after these things."
9 Consequently a sabbatism is left for the people of God.
10 For he who is entering into His stopping, he also stops from his works even as God from His own."
11 We should be endeavoring, then, to be entering into that stopping, lest anyone should be falling into the same example of stubbornness."
12 For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit, both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart."
13 And there is not a creature which is not apparent in its sight. Now all is naked and bare to the eyes of Him to Whom we are accountable.
14 Having, then, a great Chief Priest, Who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, we may be holding to the avowal."
15 For we have not a Chief Priest not able to sympathize with our infirmities, but One Who has been tried in all respects like us, apart from sin."
16 We may be coming, then, with boldness to the throne of grace, that we may be obtaining mercy and finding grace for opportune help."
george. :)
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Thank you Ray for your beautiful email and thank you Carol for your honesty.
I would much rather see someone asking the hard questions than asking no questions at all. I know people who seem to just pull things right out of the air and understand them. I am not one of those. I break everything down in a million pieces and then put it back in a box that is understandable to me. I have had to wait until God answered my hard questions to put in that piece. I learn the hard way. It took me 5 years to learn that there is no free will. Piece by little piece. Circumstance by circumstance. Suffering and more suffering.
I felt insane most of that time and confusion was screaming at me. My faith was attacked every step of the way. God pulled the rug out from under my reality. When I found BT God pulled the rug out even more.
I learned that a lot of those hard questions were the flaming arrows of the evil one that were used to attack God's character. They put fear and doubt in my heart. Even this was all a process in my life to strengthen me. I learned to not doubt God even though I didn't have the answer yet. I learned that God is good even though some things make him look bad from our limited sight. I learned that all my thoughts that attacked God's character were not of God. The wrestling I went through was my carnal man wrestling against the will of God.
My son is an alcoholic and has been for years. He is so close to death so many times and my heart aches. I've had to go through such hard lessons through all of that. I've had to learn to accept the unacceptable and do things no mother should have to do.
My grandson and granddaughter have chronic daily migraines. They have never been able to go to school or play like other kids. My grandson hasn't been able to get out of bed for the last six weeks. He has a migraine 24 hours a day now.
I do not have joy through these trials, but God has taught me to accept his will and most of the time I can believe that his plan is good. I do fall into a day of despair now and then though.
Romans 5:3-5
3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
God has never failed to answer my questions even though it took years sometimes. I had to learn that I could not lean on my own understanding. I think that might be what you are learning now through this process. Just another rug being pulled out from under you. He is faithful though. I might not be able to trust in my own understanding, but I can trust that he understands all and he is in charge of me.
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Thank you Carol for sharing your heart with us. Thank you Ray for your response, and thank you Dennis for making it happen.
It's great when we read about good news on the forum, but the reality is that we all have our cross to bear. The good news about that is that our Lord knows exactly what we're going through, He is with us in our suffering, and is interceding for us with our Father.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Geoff
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I’ve hesitated to post since yesterday morning, probably shouldn’t still. God gave 2 ears 1 mouth, so I’m attempting to live by “shut up every chance you get”, which is good course for someone who understands very little of Gods ways.
Carol thank you for your post. Your words have been ringing in my head, and will continue. Sometimes it sure seems like God has lost his eyesight and his hearing.
Ray I know you don’t read the forum and that makes me sad because you won’t know how grateful I am to God for you and your wisdom, courage and inspiration and your generosity.
And to M.G., thank you for these words:
"I know people who seem to just pull things right out of the air and understand them. I am not one of those. I break everything down in a million pieces and then put it back in a box that is understandable to me. I have had to wait until God answered my hard questions to put in that piece. I learn the hard way. It took me 5 years to learn that there is no free will. Piece by little piece. Circumstance by circumstance. Suffering and more suffering.
I felt insane most of that time and confusion was screaming at me. My faith was attacked every step of the way. God pulled the rug out from under my reality. When I found BT God pulled the rug out even more."
Right to the heart of the matter M.G., thank you, I could search for a long time to find the right words but you said it perfect. Now I know I’m not insane. Now I know there is life after confusion and that, hopefully, the next train stop is at this point:
I learned that a lot of those hard questions were the flaming arrows of the evil one that were used to attack God's character. They put fear and doubt in my heart. Even this was all a process in my life to strengthen me. I learned to not doubt God even though I didn't have the answer yet. I learned that God is good even though some things make him look bad from our limited sight. I learned that all my thoughts that attacked God's character were not of God. The wrestling I went through was my carnal man wrestling against the will of God.
Gary
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Hi to all who have contributed to this thread; I appreciate everyone's honesty and transparency... I can so relate!
I felt insane most of that time and confusion was screaming at me. My faith was attacked every step of the way. God pulled the rug out from under my reality. When I found BT God pulled the rug out even more."
Right to the heart of the matter M.G., thank you, I could search for a long time to find the right words but you said it perfect. Now I know I’m not insane. Now I know there is life after confusion and that, hopefully, the next train stop is at this point:
After 4 years of confusion, I am finally arriving at a place where everything is making more sense than it ever has. Just reading that others have had this "insane" feeling in the beginning makes me feel not so alone. It is good to be part of this wonderful group.
Angie
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I read Ray's response yesterday. Thank you Dennis. I would like to thank Ray especially and all those here. Your comments and scriptures mean a lot to me.
I wish I had mentioned in my original email that this woman in San Antonio is schizophrenic -- a point which nullifies the usual debate over free will v. God's sovereignty. This woman made no choice.
She also said that "the devil made her do it." But the only one I see sending evil spirits in scripture is God. To me, the devil is a non-entity in the overall scheme of things. God is sovereign.
Ray's letter was beautiful though and please thank him for me Dennis. I would love to sign up for the November conference.
Samson -- you have done NOTHING to cause me any stress. I did not mean my comments about the forum to be personal to anyone. It's the debating of scripture I am weary of.
Looking for heretics and babylonians under every bush has made me unloving, impatient and self-righteous at times.
Bluzman -- I'm a believer in oxygen. Haven't tried a tank but I do a miracle of a little workout called Oxycise. Doesn't help my headaches much but it has made me lose weight and feel better. It's great for everyone and even those with bad knees or feet can get all the cardio and muscle toning they want. No equipment, no shoes, no sweating, and ladies, you don't even have to wear a bra. 15 MINUTES A DAY!
Ray -- I am still confused about how we are "receiving evil at the hand of God" yet God is guilty of no crime. I don't know who or what is responsible for the death of this baby but the mother is the last person I would blame. A schizophrenic with post partum depression cannot be held responsible. Yet I know these are questions that confuse us all.
And where is the line between "not agreeing on every issue" and heresy. I look forward to discussing all these things with you at the conference.
ericsteven -- WOW. I love the Habbakuk scriptures. I will mark those scriptures in my Bible if I ever open it again. (a little joke, very little)
MG, I've got to say that your situation only makes me more depressed -- I know you have been praying fervently for all those years.
What does it mean that with the faith of a mustard seed, you can move a mountain? We don't have faith?
God definitely has a sense of humor though. In the midst of it all I have such terrible menopausal symptoms that I could cry at a picture of a kitten -- and I am a dog person!!
Okay, I'm as tired of my wallowing in self-pity as you guys must be of listening to my wallowing. Whew. I really hope to attend the conference and will hope that Ray's health will allow him to be there.
I heard a country-western song yesterday that kind of sums it up...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqrogegV1lw
Amen.
Love you all,
Carol
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Hi Carol,
I LIKE that song--it is upbeat in spite of the fact that "people are crazy". Or maybe because of it..God is great, beer is good--like you said, that sums it up. No need to give the "people are crazy" bit a whole lot more credence, as we don't have a say at all regarding that. I've been there (psycho land) myself, and who knows what God has in store for the schizophrenic San Antonio lady. I pray she gets the opportunity to experience the opposite of where she is now. I'm so thankful that my eyes and ears are being opened daily, as but for the grace of God, I could have done the same type of heinous acts that she did to her own child back in that era when I was out of it. And regarding the baby, I'd like to think that the saying "God never gives us more than we can handle" applies to children as well. When pain nears the point of unbearable, He takes either it, or the one experiencing it, away. No need to doubt His sovereignty regarding us--we are all His children and He loves us. It is not our place to step in for our God.
I pray that it is God's will to take your headaches and your pain away so that you can feel His Love above the heartache and disgust with the world you are experiencing. I think Ray's reply speaks volumes to all of us and I really thank you for being so straight up about where you are right now. I hope I'm not offending you by sharing my thoughts.
Love to you in Christ,
Vangie
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Ray and Carol,
Thanks so very much for your posts. Carol, you hit the nail on the head for me. Ray, your reply to Carol was what I needed to hear right now. I appreciate more than anything that Ray is not looking for followers but teaching as he is led by GOD.
In HIM,
Phil3:10
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Hi Carol,
Well it's kind of a mixture of being glad to see you back and sadness to hear what you have been going through. I remember my years of confusion before coming to BT. First I was in WWCOG in the era of Herbert Armstrong and I thought at the time that they were God's remnant/Elect. I left that church sorely disappointed and yes confused. I began to question whether it was possible to know the "truth." But I thinking in order to worship God I needed to be in church, so I went to the church of my childhood, which was a Baptist. I thought I could hang on to a few things that I understood to be truth and worship there. But actually after hearing their rhetoric for years I began to lose the few beliefs I had and was really becoming mixed up. Though I could not buy into a lot of what they taught, I was so confused and I was loosing hope in ever finding 'truth.' Yes this 'truth' seemed more elusive than ever. But I still believed there was one absolute truth, I just didn't think it was obtainable here on earth. I was getting worn down by the things happening in this Christian 'sanctuary.' I was unhappy, my 3 girls that was raised in the church were unhappy, it really was a mess. It was then that God released me from this prison of confusion, by bringing me to the BT site. As soon as I began reading I knew and felt assured that finally I was being shown the truth. I really think that my pass experiences of wondering for so many years in darkness has helped me have confidence that this is the truth. I can't help but think we need that experience in darkness before we can really appreciate the light and He will bring us to the truth.
Another thing you mentioned was the horrid thing that happened to that little baby. Why would God not only allow, but be responsible for this type thing to happen? And we have news reports of awful and disturbing things that one human being is capable of doing to another human being quite a bit. I really think that we have always had these disturbing and wicked things going on from the beginning of the time man has been on the earth. It really puts into perspective this verse.
Gen 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
But why did God make us this way, so evil and wretched? I think there will be no end to the wickedness that man is capable of until this age ends and Christ returns. Right now it's hard to comprehend how His plan and purpose could possibly compensate for all of the things that are happening in this world now. Well I believe that we simply do not have enough understanding or insight into the next part of God's plan yet. But I am confident that He will indeed right every wrong, I don't know how, but I know He does not lie and we have this Scripture that gives us that assurance.
Rev 21:4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
So now I live with a kind of resolve that things are as they need to be now and His purpose is for the ultimate good, so He will rectify all things, even for those who suffer in ways that's hard to understand now. We have to remember that Jesus Christ truly does sympathize with what we are going through.
Heb 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
It really is amazing to me that Jesus Christ having seen for centuries what human being were capable of, yet put aside His glory and came down (way down) into the form of a man. This He did because He loves us so much that in order for their plan to bring us into glory, He was willing to be a sacrifice Himself. This does help us put things into perspective.
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
v. 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
v. 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
v. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
We all care for you Carol and are praying that God will bring you through these trials into a strong and confident understanding of who He is and that you can rest assured that His plan is perfect.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Greatly moved by your testimony Carol as well as Ray's and others responses. Thanks for the post. Peace and Grace
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Hi Carol,
Been trying to think what to add to your post. As I was "one" of those in the group you mentioned, that wanted to study together.
I think you know how I feel about you. If you don't, let me say in front of the entire forum how much I am grateful for your befriending me and inviting me into the group. You helped me by taking time to explain things I was struggling with, and were honest and open about some issues that we shared.
I was never apart of "Mikes Group" so I did not share the experience of realizing that someone you had high regard for as a teacher was in gross error (since learning the truth taught here). I don't believe that anyone that has found Ray's site, hasn't experienced this to some degree. There are wonderful people I have tried to share the great Revelation of no hell and UR, that are offended by it because they would have to admit some certain previous new understanding was not entirely true. It is our shared carnal nature to value ourselves better, through our ideas, intellect and opinions.
For decades it has been apparent to me that as you also observed, there are no two people who believe exactly the same on every issue. It's a lonely existence for every soul to be aware of this fact. At times it's unbearably painful, can we not even find a safe haven here? Why would God put us all through this "no win" paradim?
My flawed and limited reasoning with prayerful questioning, suspects that we can not attain "God Like Love" with out first experiencing first hand evil. If God has willed us to succeed in this, at this time, then forgiveness and compassion and redemption can be seen for both Mother & Child in such a hideous state. As you have so discerned and cried out to God about this ugliness! I can't help but wonder at least in part, was not his great purpose...For you to overcome this temporary evil, with a desire for hope & Love of ALL vs destroying most of humanity?
Could it be that as we bump souls with each other and find strife, that we are all pruned to be more the image of Christ in our spirit?
Can we find a hope to account this to great Joy that he is finishing a great work in us.
Can it also be that when we find everyone lacking in love and understanding, that it is the grace of God that causes us to understand we have no free will and compells us to seek him and not each other?
I have been in a major funk myself, and I have to thank Linny's sweet spirit to compel me to organize my thoughts. How grateful we need to be of the moderators here, and the opportunity to share our growing pains together at Ray's BT forum. I'm so looking forward to hearing Ray at his conference, God willing Carol, I can't wait to give you a big hug in person!
Your grateful friend, who weeps with you over the kittens,
Brenda
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Hi Carol
I too was part of Mike's group and 'met' every Sunday for his online bible study. I even saved enough money to attend one of his conferences - quite a trek from the UK (wish now I'd stayed at home and still had the money to get to Ray's conference in November!!). Within a couple of weeks of attending that conference I realised how far he'd strayed from the truth and reverted back to Rays teaching and thats when I too joined that rather select little skype group with you and Brenda LOL. However, like you I tired of all the arguments and so I stopped 'meeting'. Another member of the group, also from the UK, (you'll know who I'm talking about) has also suffered greatly, has been unable to see the purposes of God in his situation and is also confused and angry, I thought of him as I read your email, I miss his gems of wisdom more than he'll ever know.
I'm hanging on in there in the midst of my own trials, mostly because, in the words of Peter - when many disciples turned back and no longer followed Jesus and He asked them if they too wanted to abandon Him - 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life and we have believed and have come to know that you are the Holy One of God'. At the end of the day, Carol, who else is there to turn to?
If I could get to the conference in November, I like Brenda, would love to give you a hug (and Brenda a hug!) It seems only in retrospect that we can see God's hand in our journey and the very strange paths He leads us - even that group had its place - very strange!! M
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Hab 3:17 Even though the fig trees have no blossoms, and there are no grapes on the vine; even though the olive crop fails, and the fields lie empty and barren; even though the flocks die in the fields, and the cattle barns are empty,
Hab 3:18 yet I will rejoice in the Lord! I will be joyful in the God of my salvation.
Hab 3:19 The Sovereign Lord is my strength! He will make me as surefooted as a deer and bring me safely over the mountains.
IF I were a doctor, these would be the "pills" I would prescribe!! Read them carefully, meditate, not for seconds but for hours, days, if need be until YOU can obey this!
My paraphrase....Even tho "women are eating their babies" (or insert one of a billion things that are evil) YET YET YET will I rejoice in the LORD. the Lord is my STRENGTH, HE will guide me safely...
CAN WE DO THIS? dO WE BELIEVE IT?? If we believe then we must OBEY.
Carol's honest testimony had me teary, Ray's courage and love brought tears to my eyes, but Habbakuk had me bawling!
It is MY life I need to live for HIM, not to look at the world and question Him or His Ways. I am preaching this to myself, I am not there, but I want to be.
Thanks Carol and all responders. thank you Dennis for posting Ray's response. We are so blessed!
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Amen to that, Gena!!
Kathy :)
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Hab 3:17 Even though the fig trees have no blossoms, and there are no grapes on the vine; even though the olive crop fails, and the fields lie empty and barren; even though the flocks die in the fields, and the cattle barns are empty,
Hab 3:18 yet I will rejoice in the Lord! I will be joyful in the God of my salvation.
Hab 3:19 The Sovereign Lord is my strength! He will make me as surefooted as a deer and bring me safely over the mountains.
IF I were a doctor, these would be the "pills" I would prescribe!! Read them carefully, meditate, not for seconds but for hours, days, if need be until YOU can obey this!
My paraphrase....Even tho "women are eating their babies" (or insert one of a billion things that are evil) YET YET YET will I rejoice in the LORD. the Lord is my STRENGTH, HE will guide me safely...
CAN WE DO THIS? dO WE BELIEVE IT?? If we believe then we must OBEY.
Carol's honest testimony had me teary, Ray's courage and love brought tears to my eyes, but Habbakuk had me bawling!
It is MY life I need to live for HIM, not to look at the world and question Him or His Ways. I am preaching this to myself, I am not there, but I want to be.
Thanks Carol and all responders. thank you Dennis for posting Ray's response. We are so blessed!
Hi Gena,
This is truth you write, when we start to understand this, we are becoming usable (humble) for what GOD Is preparing us to do. I used four different translations of the same Scripture for perspective only.
Ecc 1:13 (MKJV)
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all which is done under the heavens. It is a sad task God has given to the sons of men to be humbled by it.
Ecc 1:13 (LITV)
And I gave my heart to seek and to investigate by wisdom concerning all which is done under the heavens. It is an evil task God has given to the sons of men, to be afflicted by it.
Ecc 1:13 (Darby)
And I applied my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: this grievous occupation hath God given to the children of men to weary themselves therewith.
Ecc 1:13 (CLV)
I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
george. :)
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This whole post from the start has been great help to me. I keep wondering how some of the things we see in our life can be for good. But, I know it is in God's hands. I have no right to think I know best in all things of life. Does not make it easy. But, it does humble me. Going through some great trials in my life. Just, when I think I went through the hardest time of my life, there comes another.
It is really something to watch Ray be tested and see his love for God. I am so glad that God led me here when he did. I need him and you all more then I ever did.
Carol, so glad you began this post and praying for you. I was confused and God led me here. The scriptures from Habk. really speak loud and clear.
In His Love,
Marlene
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This whole post from the start has been great help to me.
When trials come our way it's hard for us to remember that all the evils in this world ultimately serve a good purpose.
Here one person's trials inspires another for the good.
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You don't need to know exactly how a good curry is made to be able to enjoy it, or for it to sustain your body.
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Carol and all,
For reasons known only to GOD I was drawn back to Carol's post this Sunday morning. I have re-read each post and want to thank each one that posted for the spirit of love evidenced in each post. Ray Smith has meant so much to me and I think his humility is the main reason I feel as I do about him. There is no boasting, no need to be praised, no financial reason but only the truths of GOD in every word he teaches.
Carol, in her reply, after Ray's post, evidences the way I feel each time I spend GOD directed time in this site. I really thank ericsteven for his 8/13/2009 post on the prayer of Habakkuk which I probably would have never spent the time I did this morning. This time helped me to understand more fully GOD'S reason for evil. However, the promise that the earth will be filled with the knowledge and glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea (Hab. 2:14) did much to ease my concerns.
(Hab. 2:20) "But the LORD is in HIS holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before HIM". speaks directly to my weak mind. Maybe, this is what all of us need to do more of. Just to know that all is of HIM, HIS SON who is HIS WORD, and just rejoice in the LORD, the joy of my salvation (Hab. 3:18)
In HIM,
Phil3:10
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Carol. I have come late to this discussion. You remind me of myself, your questioning, your anger, your frustration. I have always been a rebel and I especially rebel against evil but I have found out in my later yrs.(I am 67) that it does no good, it wears me out. Flesh cannot fight spirit, only spirit and the Godly kind at that, can overcome.
I too was crazy mad at one time and blamed God, that did me no good either. After 35 yrs. I think I might be surrending a bit. Use your courageous spirit to speak out against the evil but always with love and understanding. I don't mean understanding the evil but the person doing it. A person, a fallen creature, a sick creature, who might or might not know God. I am not saying call evil good in any way.
Jesus got angry and lost His patience with evil. God is good, we are somewhat aquainted with good, but we are nothing in the presence of God. Why did God create evil? I just tell myself He is not one-sided, we were made like Him in that way but tension produces steel, struggle produces strength. Humans respond with evil at times when the good is meant to respond but then again look at who we are, a fallen race designed by God but with much purpose.
Keep fighting Carol, just know your enemy. And pray with me about that woman that she never recovers her sanity because if she realizes what she has done, it will be worse than the act itself. And it would be a privilege if you would say a prayer for me. Thank you, love you, judy
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You don't need to know exactly how a good curry is made to be able to enjoy it, or for it to sustain your body.
was going to comment on this when i read it originally, but i, well.......i just forgot to. ::)
i can appreciate this analogy.
claudia