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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: emkayfey on January 01, 2010, 07:28:30 AM
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Yet others be saving, snatching them out of the fire, yet to others be merciful with fear, hating even the tunic spotted by the flesh. (Jude 1:23 Concordant)
And some in fear save ye, out of the fire snatching, hating even the coat from the flesh spotted.(Jud 1:23 YLT)
And, on some, indeed, have mercy,--such as are in doubt, be saving, out of the fire, snatching them;(Jud 1:22 Rotherdam)
I learnt a great deal from Oatmeals Lake of fire post...great.
I have this question from the above scriptures;Can we save any out of fire? even if not literal, my emphasis are on on the words 'save' and 'from' or 'out of fire' even if as a form of judgement. Thanks.
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Hello emkayfey
Marques posted an excellent reminder of the reason why we should prefer Judgment now and not later.
You ask : Can we save any out of fire? even if not literal, my emphasis are on on the words 'save' and 'from' or 'out of fire' even if as a form of judgement.
Judgment is fire. Everyone shall be judged.
Hos 8:14 For Israel has forgotten his Maker, and builds temples. And Judah has multiplied cities. But I will send a fire on his cities, and it shall burn up her palaces.
Heb 12:29 for also, "Our God is a consuming fire."
1Co 3:15 If anyone's work shall be burned up, he shall suffer loss. But he shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
Arc
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I have this question from the above scriptures;Can we save any out of fire? even if not literal, my emphasis are on on the words 'save' and 'from' or 'out of fire' even if as a form of judgement. Thanks.
Hello Emkayfey,
No, we do not need to save anyone from judgment fire, Jude is not talking about that kind of fire. Jude uses the metaphor of 'fire' as speaking of danger, not righteous judgment fire. To save [Gk. 'sozo'] means 'to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction'. Jude is speaking of 2 different forms of convincing others of the gospel.
Jude 1:21-22 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Here, Jude speaks of convincing some through compassion & mercy. This word 'difference' [Gk. diakrino #G1252] means to 'judge, discern, to try, decide'. It is the same 'diakrino' we are to do, to ourselves, that Paul teaches about:
1 Cor 11:31 For if we would judge ['diakrino'] ourselves, we should not be judged
Here Jude speaks of another, more forceful method of convincing others:
Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Spotted or unclean garments is always symbolic of unrighteousness. This method is essentially speaking of convincing others to follow the Lord by rebuking them of their ungodly ways.
For example, think of the contrasting ways that Paul spoke to the churches. Paul was more 'forceful', if you will, with the church of Corinth for their attitude of following one apostle over another [1 Cor 3]. But to the church of Thessalonians [1 Thess] Paul was more compassionate and really edifying the church to continue in their walk with the Lord.
Another, more modern example, would be Ray's email replies. To those who write and are genuinely seeking understanding of God and His Word, Ray shows more patience & compassion. When others seek to 'rebuke' or discredit his teachings, Ray calls them out for their unrighteous attitude.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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Hi Emkayfey,
Jude 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
v. 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Marques brought out the word "difference." This seems to be saying that we can make a difference to someone, we do that here at the forum with encouragement or showing patience in explaining something to those that come here for answers. It's not that WE "save" them, but when the Spirit of God is working through us, then we can be an instrument in His hands. God wants us to recognize the working of the Spirit in us, and for us to "yield" ourselves unto Him.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
It's always God that does the good works in us, but He wants us to see that through the working of the Spirit in us that we can make a difference to someone.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thank you Marques and Kat for your explanations...goes a long way to explain what Jude might be talking about, I am still thinking about his choice of words e.g from fire, I believe we could still explore this further.
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Very interesting topic emkayfey,
Antaiwan, I believe you are on to something here. Often we have a tendency to only apply scripture to the here and now, we look for the literal, moral and even allegorical messages but sometimes we forget about the prophetic message that might be contained within books not normally associated with prophecy.
If we look carefully at what emkayfey noted about what is being proposed in Jude, we must ask ourselves what power do we presently have to pull anyone out of any type of trial, tribulation or spiritual fire they might be experiencing in this life, in this age? Yes, we can be an example, we can answer a question when asked but do any of us have a real power at this time to judge, evaluate, discern and administer mercy and true (spiritual) peace if need be? I can only answer for myself and the answer is a resounding NO!
I have no such power....
I can hear responses now saying "Joe, it is the Spirit which accomplishes these things, not men." True, in this age, but isn't it written that at some point in the age to come His elect will also have been given the power and spiritual discernment to actually have a direct effect on the perfection of others? Not only on people of our own generation(s) but of people throughout the course of history.
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Read the entire chapter)
Could it be possible that Jude's greater message was directed to the time/age after the following transpires?
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle:
the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
We know all will eventually be saved, who might be pulling those on the wrong side of the battle out of this "fire" when the time is right, when they are ready for harvest?
Just some thoughts...
Peace,
Joe
P.S. Antaiwan I see your post was removed (by you?), too bad, I thought there was merit in what you wrote.
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Hey Joe!
Yeah, I removed the post! (first time I actually removed my own post too!!!)
I understand the point your making and I believe I was thinking along the same lines but I'm still unsure if it applies to this verse. I'm still meditating on it.
Im glad you mentioned the prophetic message point of view.
The verse is translated many different ways and its quite confusing.
Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference: (discernment)
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
I understand verse 23 to be a metaphor of how one is saved.
The contemporary version makes more sense to me:
Jud 1:22 Be helpful to all who may have doubts. (why this way???)
Jud 1:23 Rescue any who need to be saved, as you would rescue someone from a fire. There is the figure of speech, a simile. We are to rescue someone as we we would if they were in a fire. Not judgement fire. Then with fear in your own hearts, have mercy on everyone who needs it. But hate even the clothes of those who have been made dirty by their filthy deeds. There is the other!! a metaphor. The dirty clothes are the filthy deeds.
A friend of mine made a good point, It doesn't make sense to be saved or rescued from judgement fire.
We are saved by this fire not from it.
The scriptures I showed in my previous post, I thought were a witness to these but it didn't fit. So I think, still not sure........
I just don't think this instance is talking about judgment fire.
Joe, you do make a valid point that a lot of things we should do for the wicked and unbelieving we just can't accomplish now.
But we can literally saved them from fire(danger, hurt, harmful situations, etc........) I do understand that is capable for some.
What I can understand from the KJV is that we save some with compassion and then we save some with fear (fear of their harm)
Verse 24 is why I made the previous assumption or post that I erased.
Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
How do we keep them(wicked, mockers, unbelieving) from falling?
He is able to keep us from falling because we have be chosen out.
See where I'm going????
I'm going to continue to meditate.........
Like my friend said I might be suffering from paralysis of analysis!!! seriously!!!
Antaiwan
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Hi Antaiwan,
Perhaps the only way to experience and fulfill this message from Jude would be by joining our local volunteer fire department..... ;)
Peace,
Joe
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Not sure if this is a spiritual match, but I think it's worth a look.
Zec 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the LORD, with Satan standing at his right side to accuse him.
Zec 3:2 The LORD said to Satan: "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! May the LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Isn't this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?"
Zec 3:3 Now Joshua was dressed with filthy clothes as he stood before the Angel.
Zec 3:4 So He spoke to those standing before Him, "Take off his filthy clothes!" Then He said to him, "See, I have removed your guilt from you, and I will clothe you with splendid robes."
Zec 3:5 Then I said, "Let them put a clean turban on his head." So a clean turban was placed on his head, and they clothed him in garments while the Angel of the LORD was standing nearby.
Zec 3:6 Then the Angel of the LORD charged Joshua:
Zec 3:7 "This is what the LORD of Hosts says: If you walk in My ways and keep My instructions, you will both rule My house and take care of My courts; I will also grant you access among these who are standing here.
Zec 3:8 "Listen, Joshua the high priest, you and your colleagues sitting before you; indeed, these men are a sign that I am about to bring My servant, the Branch.
Zec 3:9 Notice the stone I have set before Joshua; on that one stone are seven eyes. I will engrave an inscription on it"--the declaration of the LORD of Hosts--"and I will take away the guilt of this land in a single day.
Zec 3:10 On that day, each of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and fig tree." This is the declaration of the LORD of Hosts.
Jud 1:22 Have mercy on some who doubt;
Jud 1:23 save others by snatching them from the fire; on others have mercy in fear, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
Jud 1:24 Now to Him who is able to protect you from stumbling and to make you stand in the presence of His glory, blameless and with great joy,
Jud 1:25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority before all time, now, and forever. Amen.
I can see how all this might be talking about things that might happen in the next age, but I can also see some of these happening in this age. Then again I could be way off.
G.Driggs
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I can see how all this might be talking about things that might happen in the next age, but I can also see some of these happening in this age. Then again I could be way off.
G.Driggs
Often we have a tendency to only apply scripture to the here and now, we look for the literal, moral and even allegorical messages but sometimes we forget about the prophetic message that might be contained within books not normally associated with prophecy.
Hi George,
You are not off at all, at least from my perspective. Should we ever ignore meditating or considering any literal, moral or allegorical message in His Word? When, or at what time in the here and now can we be confident and complacent enough to say to ourselves (or anyone who happens to be listening) "I know everything, on every level what this book, chapter or even verse of what this scripture is saying?" My only real issue is that it is prudent to also consider the potential prophetic application as well.
My point was not to diminish or exclude any other interpretation but to propose there may indeed be another application as well.
Peace,
Joe
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As I was reading through Jude it becomes clear right off that he is talking to the believers about those that come among them that are not of like mind.
Jude 1:4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Jude goes on to warn the believers about how corrupt these people are.
v. 17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ:
v. 18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts.
v. 19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.
Now we come to the verses in question. Isn't he just saying how to help those that these "ungodly people" are affecting?
v. 22 And have mercy (compassion) on those who doubt;
v. 23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.
When he talks about saving some, I think he is speaking of trying to help "save" some from those ungodly people luring them away. James and Paul both spoke this way.
Rom 11:13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
v. 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
James 5:19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
v. 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
Just wanted to add these Scriptures to the discussion.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat those are the scriptures I needed!!!
Thank You!
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The contemporary version makes more sense to me:
Jud 1:22 Be helpful to all who may have doubts. (why this way???)
Jud 1:23 Rescue any who need to be saved, as you would rescue someone from a fire. There is the figure of speech, a simile. We are to rescue someone as we we would if they were in a fire. Not judgement fire. Then with fear in your own hearts, have mercy on everyone who needs it. But hate even the clothes of those who have been made dirty by their filthy deeds. There is the other!! a metaphor. The dirty clothes are the filthy deeds.
A friend of mine made a good point, It doesn't make sense to be saved or rescued from judgement fire.
We are saved by this fire not from it.
Rom 11:13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
v. 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
James 5:19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
v. 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
Just wanted to add these Scriptures to the discussion.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
The comparative scripture by Kat and the contemporary version translation by akira seems to make things clearer and more sensible for me, you'll have thought concordant version would put this better, this underscores the value of cross referencing scriptures as Ray often advocates.
So Jude is either only a Simile as portrayed by the contemporary version or Jude is talking to the believers about those that come among them that are not of like mind as noted by Kat. Or it is actually talking about another age. as pointed out by hillsbororiver.
Loads of food for thoughts on this now.
Emmanuel
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To follow what Kat posted.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departure grievous wolves shall enter in AMONG YOU, not sparing the flock.
Jesus tells us what is going to happen.
Luk 10:3 Go! Behold, I SEND YOU FORTH as lambs among wolves.
Jesus tells us how He handles this. 8)
Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore BE AS WISE AS SERPENTS AND AS HARMLESS AS DOVES.
This is the Plan of God.
1Co 11:19 For there must also be heresies among you, that the approved ones may be revealed among you.
Act 20:30 Also men shall arise from your own selves, speaking perverse things in order to draw disciples away after them.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.
2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us;
Act 20:35 I have shown you all things, that working in this way we ought to help the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same YESTERDAY and TODAY and forever.
Arc
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Great study friends,
Thanks to all for the stimulating and helpful input.
As other have mentioned there is much to mull over.
It is topics such as this that give my daily life purpose and that drive me to focus my efforts in study and in prayer for understanding.
Indiana Bob
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A friend of mine made a good point, It doesn't make sense to be saved or rescued from judgement fire.
We are saved by this fire not from it.
The scriptures I showed in my previous post, I thought were a witness to these but it didn't fit. So I think, still not sure........
I just don't think this instance is talking about judgment fire.
Antaiwan makes a good point here. The word 'snatch' means to 'save' in the Greek [Gk. 'sozo'], it does not make sense for one to be 'saved' from spiritual judgment fire when it is that same fire which saves all humanity.
Whenever the scriptures use 'save' [sozo] it always means to take one out of harm's way or heal/bless them:
Matt 8:25 And his disciples came to [Him], and awoke Him, saying, Lord, save [Gk. sozo] us: we perish.
Mark 5:27-28 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment. For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole [Gk. sozo].
Remember, judgment by fire, Gehenna fire, Lake of Fire are all the same fires and accomplish the same in all human beings [see 'All Fires are Same Consuming Fire (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm)]. These fires also have brimstone, which is symbolic of the purification in these fire.
If Jude were referencing spiritual fire, he would not have likened the person in such a state to having 'garments stained in the flesh'. If a person where in fiery judgment, their clothes would be whitened [Rev 3:4-5 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment;]
'Snatching one from fire' is as much of a metaphor as 'garments defiled from flesh'. Again Jude shows a contrast in how we deal with the unbelieving. On one hand, Jude admonishes to do so with compassion [Jude 1:22]. On the other hand he likens a more forceful deposition, of one 'snatching one from impending destruction [Jude 1:23]. Anyone who has ever talked with unbelievers about the gospel understands the different approach you take by discerning who you are talking to. Again Jude tells us to use this discernment ('making a difference' [Gk. diakrino - discern, judge, seperate]), in our approach.
Remember, it is through the foolishness of preaching that God uses to call His people [1 Cor 1:21]. Sometimes through strong rebuke, other times a softer hand. The spirit leads us, gives us discernment for each occasion.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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'Snatching one from fire' is as much of a metaphor as 'garments defiled from flesh'. Again Jude shows a contrast in how we deal with the unbelieving. On one hand, Jude admonishes to do so with compassion [Jude 1:22]. On the other hand he likens a more forceful deposition, of one 'snatching one from impending destruction [Jude 1:23]. Anyone who has ever talked with unbelievers about the gospel understands the different approach you take by discerning who you are talking to. Again Jude tells us to use this discernment ('making a difference' [Gk. diakrino - discern, judge, seperate]), in our approach.
Thanks a lot Marques, it all seem to join up together now, 'Snatching one from fire' is as much of a metaphor as 'garments defiled from flesh'. I was gulity of looking at it more literarily.
Great contributions from everyone...and one less baffling scripture for me.
Emmanuel
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Hi All,
So we have the power presently to "save" people? I thought that comes later...
This narrow definition has a bit of a church aroma to it. Isn't it only God that saves (in this age) whomsoever He might choose? Of course we may be used as a vehicle or vessel but I doubt even Ray who has touched millions through his articles believes he has any power to open eyes blinded by God at this point in time.
Again I do not dispute the literal interpretation only that it goes deeper and is in line with other scripture as well as what Ray teaches.
From LOF 12
You have heard enough lies, now let’s read God’s Truth. Here is one of the most profound and all-encompassing Scriptures in the entirety of the Bible:
"For the earnest expectation of the creature [creation] waits for THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD. For the creature [creation] was MADE subject to VANITY [‘…surely, EVERY MAN IS VANITY’-- Psalm 39:11], NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [GOD] Who has subjected the same in HOPE. Because the creature [creation] itself also shall be DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption [corruption includes DEATH] into THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD. For we know that THE WHOLE CREATION GROANS AND TRAVAILS IN PAIN together until now" (Rom. 8:19-22).
WOW! Let me point out a few marvelous things in this verse. Notice the chronological order of things in this Scripture and see how it contradicts the terrible teaching of orthodox doctrine:
First the Sons of God are manifested or shown to be what they really are—SPIRITUAL SONS OF GOD (and DAUGHTERS—II Cor. 6:18)! No longer flesh and blood. No longer subject to the pulls of a carnal mind, but True Sons in the very IMAGE OF GOD and His Son, Jesus Christ.
But what happens next? What happens to all the rest of humanity who are not sons and daughters and are not saved? What will happen to them? Just why, pray tell, are they eagerly awaiting the manifestation of these Sons and Daughters? Of what value is the salvation and manifestation of the few chosen saints to those left behind who are not saved?
The Church teaches the world that the rest of humanity will be tortured for all eternity in the lake of fire. Is that true? Is that the purpose of the lake of fire is?
Next we read what the condition of the rest of humanity is, how they got that way, and what is the solution to the problem.
"For the creature [creation] was made subject to VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope" (Rom. 8:20).
God MADE man subject to vanity. God did not ask man’s permission to do this. God did it for His own wise purpose. But God is not a fiend that takes pleasure in the failures of weak humanity. God did not make man in a condition of vanity so that most of humanity would fail of the ideal, and God would then torture most of his creation eternally, when it was He Who created them weak and subjected them to every form of vanity in the first place. God created the whole creation subject to vanity. It is, therefore, God’s responsibility to get man out of this mess.
God supernaturally made a way for the "manifested Sons of God" to conquer the flesh and the carnal mind and be formed into the very image of God with the very mind of Christ! They will be no longer subject to vanity when they are manifested. They will be no longer subject to "the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION." They will be FREE!
And it is they who will then FREE the rest of humanity from their bondage! What was the purpose for this subjection to vanity? So that they will eternally fail and God would eternally torture them for their failure? No! Let’s read it:
God has, "subjected the same IN HOPE" (Verse 20). Wait a minute, am I saying that all of humanity, who fail to be in the first resurrection and become the manifest Sons and Daughters of God, will nonetheless still have "hope?" Is there really hope for all the lost and unsaved? How can this be? Aren’t they going to be subjected to the "lake of fire?" Yes, but there is "hope" in the lake of fire. In fact, the lake of fire is their ONLY HOPE! They will not be eternally tortured just because they did not attain to the first resurrection, but will rather be "DELIVERED!"
http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html
Can any of us make the claim that we are free from the pull of the flesh, our garments spotless?
Peace,
Joe
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Can any of us make the claim that we are free from the pull of the flesh, our garments spotless?
Peace,
Joe
Joe,I would like to answer that question.
NO!!!
Peace...Mark
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Hi Joe. I hope you don't mind me wading in, and I hope this doesn't cloud the discussion.
You asked, in a round-about way, if we now have the power to save people. Keeping in mind always that we, in ourselves, have no power whatsoever except the power of God working in and through us, I have to answer that 'yes, we do, insofar as we opurselves can be saved in this life and current age.'
We are entreated to deal with the weak (as I believe this passage is also entreating us) in differing ways. The harshest I know anything about is the 'turning over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh', but other less 'strident' methods are surely at our disposal, don't you think? :)
By the foolishness of preaching, by exhortation, by example, and by fellowship (Rom 1:11-12 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.) we have the 'power' to 'save' incrementally, over time, those who doubt or are in danger (to varying degrees) of falling under the sway of false prophets or any other weakness, doubt, fear, or failing we are mutually subject to. That, at least in large measure, is the way WE are being saved, isn't it?
Can we do the work of ultimate salvation right now? There, I have to agree with you. Not only do we not have the credentials or power, but we don't have the time! Right now, it is OUR OWN salvation which is being worked out...yet it won't be 'worked out' unless and until we can also participate in the 'working out' of others. And it IS the foolishness of preaching that God uses to begin to save the lost, no matter how lost they are or in what age they find themselves...past, present or future.
Short version. We can (and are called to) save others even now...but this 'salvation', like our own, is not complete until judgement and resurrection, or resurrection and judgement.
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Dave,
I've not been following this thread so I may be stepping where I shouldn't ;) Or speaking out of turn.
I think I am siding with Joe here but you may be too. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying completely, if so I apologize. I don't believe we have any power to "save" anyone. God can use us to help call those to salvation and can even use us in the "saving" process. But I don't know of anyone who has or can save anyone else spriitually, except for Christ of course. I don't believe I can say to myself, "self, I'm going to town today and I think I'll try to save 2 people." But if Christ is working in me I may become a vessel that is used to call another or help "save" another. I dare say most of the time if we are living a Godly life we won't even know when or where God uses us.
So maybe we agree here but are just splitting hairs with our use of words and the meaning we are assigning to them?
Craig
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(My response to Dave's post,Dave in black, Joe in blue
Hi Joe. I hope you don't mind me wading in, and I hope this doesn't cloud the discussion.
Hi Dave, I don't mind a bit!
You asked, in a round-about way, if we now have the power to save people.
Actually I thought I was very direct in stating this question. ;)
Keeping in mind always that we, in ourselves, have no power whatsoever except the power of God working in and through us, I have to answer that 'yes, we do, insofar as we opurselves can be saved in this life and current age.'
It is true that we (in hope) are being perfected through our trials and tribulations in the here and now, each one of us in a unique fashion. Paul wrote;
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Aren't we all anxiously awaiting our Lord's return in the hope the chastising will end? We like to say we are now experiencing the purifying Fire of God's correction, is it particularly pleasant? Don't we pray for deliverance? How will this purifying Fire be felt by those who will experience it in the age to come, will they not also seek/pray/hope to be delivered from it?
We are entreated to deal with the weak (as I believe this passage is also entreating us) in differing ways. The harshest I know anything about is the 'turning over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh', but other less 'strident' methods are surely at our disposal, don't you think? :)
Yes, we should be treating others with mercy if we want God to be merciful to us, and by extension our loved ones. Personally I cannot see myself turning over anyone to Satan, or seeking their destruction as I am all too familiar of my own shortcomings.
By the foolishness of preaching, by exhortation, by example, and by fellowship (Rom 1:11-12 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.) we have the 'power' to 'save' incrementally, over time, those who doubt or are in danger (to varying degrees) of falling under the sway of false prophets or any other weakness, doubt, fear, or failing we are mutually subject to. That, at least in large measure, is the way WE are being saved, isn't it?
We have an obligation to lead by a patient, godly example, this certainly may be used by God to affect another person but perhaps more importantly God is using these opportunities to prepare us for the role we (once again in hope) will be given as Judges and Priests in the age to come, to actually affect a spiritual transformation in our lost brothers and sisters.
Can we do the work of ultimate salvation right now? There, I have to agree with you. Not only do we not have the credentials or power, but we don't have the time! Right now, it is OUR OWN salvation which is being worked out...yet it won't be 'worked out' unless and until we can also participate in the 'working out' of others. And it IS the foolishness of preaching that God uses to begin to save the lost, no matter how lost they are or in what age they find themselves...past, present or future.
Amen!
Short version. We can (and are called to) save others even now...but this 'salvation', like our own, is not complete until judgement and resurrection, or resurrection and judgement.
This is something (in bold) where I must disagree, I think Ray nailed it in the paper;
WINNING SOULS FOR JESUS?
CAN YOU ‘WIN’ SOULS FOR CHRIST?
All my life I heard of "winning souls for Jesus." It is taught throughout the whole world of Christendom. Christians are taught they must "witness for Jesus" and in so doing will "win" some souls for Jesus. Many Christians feel a definite need to try and reach people for Jesus before they die. The Christian teaching is that if anyone is not reached and persuaded to accept Jesus as his personal Saviour before he dies, then he will at death immediately go into the pagan Greek hell of hades and be tortured in fire for all eternity. Even after learning many of the Truths of God on bible-truths.com, people continue to ask me how they can fulfill their obligation to witness for Christ and become effective teachers of God’s Truths to their family, neighbors, or fellow parishioners.
Shocking as it might sound to most, the Scriptures know nothing of "winning souls for Jesus." It is a man-made doctrine of the carnal mind.
But isn’t there a Scripture somewhere that speaks of "winning souls?" No, not really.
Once only do we find any words regarding "winning souls" in the King James Bible:
"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise" (Prov. 11:30).
This verse, however, has absolutely nothing to do with saving the souls of those who believe in Jesus as their Saviour. The Hebrew word kal from which the word winneth was translated, is used hundreds of times in the King James, but only once is it translated into any form of the word "win." It means to, take, bring, fetch, acquire, rescue, etc., but "win" is a poor choice of words. Besides, spiritual salvation through Jesus Christ is not the topic of Proverbs 11:30. Two New Testament Scriptures:
In Phil. 3:8 we read, "…that I may win [Gk: ‘gain’] Christ…" and in I Pet. 3:1, "…they also may… be won [Gk: ‘gained’] by the conversation [conduct] of the wives…" The other dozen times this Greek word kerdaino is used, it is always ‘gain’ or ‘gained.’ Example: "…Lord you delivered unto me two talents: behold, I have gained [Gk: kerdaino] two other talents beside them" (Matt. 25:22).
Why didn’t the King James translate this: "…behold I have WON two other talents…?" Surely even these translators could see the implications of increasing our God-given talents by gambling with them for higher ‘WINNINGS.’
Christians need to get all this gambling terminology out of their heads when it comes to the doctrines of God. Salvation has nothing to do with winning some; loosing some; betting on statistical odds; taking chances, and all such Las Vegas crap table nonsense.
Salvation is not a matter of a first chance or a second chance or any chance. Salvation is "sure."
"SURELY, He Who spares not His own Son, but gives Him up for us all, how shall He NOT, together with Him, also, be graciously granting us ALL? (Rom. 8:32, Concordant Literal New Testament).
GOD PREDETERMINES WHO GETS SAVED AND WHEN
"Now we are aware that God [Who? GOD. Men—ourselves? NO—GOD] is working all together for the good of those who are loving God who are called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also" (Rom. 8:28-30, Concordant Literal New Testament).
It is ALL OF GOD. It is not wrong to tell others of your knowledge of God and His Word. It is not, however, your responsibility to "get people saved." Only God can do that.
It is GOD who does the calling:
"For ye see your calling brethren how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen [Who? ‘GOD’] the weak things of this world to confound the things which are mighty…" (I Cor. 1:26-27).
It is GOD who does the dragging:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent Me, draw him [Gk: ‘drag him’]…" (John 6:44).
It is CHRIST Who chooses from those His Father dragged:
"Ye have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).
Eventually this will include all mankind:
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (John 12:32).
And all will respond to God’s judgments and chastisements:
"That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those in earth, and those under the earth; And that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:10-11—See also Isa. 26:9b).
And let’s not forget:
"…no man CAN say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit" (I Cor. 12:3b).
Which is totally contrary to the horrible teachings of such men as John Hagee and Herbert W. Armstrong on this subject. Herbert Armstrong said: "Yes, every knee will bow, and if they don’t GOD WILL BREAK THEIR KNEES." Oh the unscriptural foolishness of carnal—minded men.
But do orthodox Christians believe that these Scriptures mean what they say? Of course not, and that is why they quote Phil. 2:12 "…work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," thinking that this takes Sovereignty away from God and places it back with man and his fabled "free will." Not so. They forget to read the next verse which tells us why we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling:
"For [‘for’ means ‘because’] it is GOD [Who? Man? NO! ‘GOD’] which works in you both TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm
Once again I will state I do believe God presents us with opportunities to speak the right words at the right time and that we may be the vessel being used by God to reach another person in the here and now. I don't dispute this. I can say with even more certainty that how we respond to these opportunities is how we ourselves potentially grow in spirit. But I also see prophecy in this message from Jude that points to a time when we have real Godly discernment, are really perfect and free from our own flesh and our garments are snow white in righteousness.
Thank you Dave for your response.
Peace,
Joe
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If we come back to the verses in question.
v. 22 And have mercy (compassion) on those who doubt;
v. 23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.
I don't think this is talking about "save" in the manner of salvation, but saving those from falling away or being lured away by those "ungodly people" Jude was speaking of. Here are the Scriptures from James and Paul both where both of them did use the word "save".
Rom 11:13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
v. 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
James 5:19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
v. 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
Just wanted to put these Scriptures back in as it is saying "save" and it means now in this age.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Just wanted to put these Scriptures back in as it is saying "save" and it means now in this age.
Hi Kat,
I find it amazing you can be so absolutely, definitively certain that there are no prophetic messages contained in certain scriptures, to be so positive that some things are only true in a literal sense.
Peace,
Joe
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This thread seems to have gone into left field.
Craig & Joe...I think you guys may need to look at Dave's thread again, as well as Kat's. I believe you guys are wrongly assuming that we are talking about 'saving souls' or other unscriptural doctrine. That's not the case, we are simply showing from other scriptures, what Jude is referring to as far as 'snatch from fire'.
Nowhere did anyone state that we do this of our own power...no one even used the word 'power'. The scriptures do speak of the "foolishness of preaching to 'save some'"...as well as 'magnify the ministry to convince or 'save' others [Rom 11:14]. This can be done in word or in deed...with compassion [Jude 1:22] or with strong rebuke/force [Jude 1:23]. That's is why Jude likens it to 'snatching' someone.
Why does this have to be 'here & now' OR future prophecy...what about both? God has used Ray as well as us to help people's understanding of the scriptures...and He going to use all of us in the next age to do the same.
Oh well...hope this helps,
Marques
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Hi Joe,
I am only speaking of this in the context that it appears to me to be in. It's not that I don't think there could be a prophetic message in this as well, it's just not what I'm focused on at this time.
Those Scriptures from James and Paul, that I used seems to saying right out that that's what they are speaking of and can be applied to Jude as well. That's all I'm saying.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Why does this have to be 'here & now' OR future prophecy...what about both?
Marques
Marques,
Perhaps I have lost any and all communication skills. My premise right from the start was exactly as you stated above. This bit from Jude (as with many, many scriptures) has a multileveled message contained within it. I never once disputed the literal I only asked for folks to consider the prophetic or the culmination of the Kingdom fulfillment.
Peace,
Joe
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So maybe we agree here but are just splitting hairs with our use of words and the meaning we are assigning to them?
Craig
I think that's it, Craig. And I think that's what Marques was getting at...this word 'saved'. When I was in church, I used to think of 'grace' as some kind of spiritual substance. When it was sort-of holy-rubbed on us, we were 'saved by grace'. That's not exactly what I believed, but it illustrates it. I had the same view towards 'salvation'...that it was a thing, and not a process with an end goal. We 'had salvation'. As a Baptist, once we 'had this salvation' we couldn't lose it...that way of thinking.
Now I think 'salvation' is one with all the other words the Scripture uses to describe the process of being created in the image of God. I understand it now as a process that God works in us incrementally. Dying to self, living to Christ--Being conformed to the image of His Son--and many other ways of expressing the same thought, or facets of the same thought.
When we are finally in that state of 'being saved' in the ultimate sense, we will give all glory and credit to God because we know that everything is of Him. There will be no more 'saving' necessary to do. But while we are on the way to that ultimate state (that is, being saved now) we can recognize that others are playing a role in our being saved, being perfected, however you want to put it. If they are, I can...by the grace of God.
Short version: I understand that there is no 'saved' as in past tense, done deal, except as it already existed in the foreknowledge of God. I understand that we are being saved, perfected, conformed, molded, etc, etc. now. I understand that our salvation (perfection, conforming, molding, etc. etc) won't be complete until resurrection and/or beyond. We know that all is of God. We know that we are servants of God, if indeed we are. We just don't know yet exactly what 'saved' means. :D
Anyway...none of this just fell out of my backside. ;D All this I got from B-T and Ray Smith, by the grace of God. I'd truly hate to think I've got it ALL wrong.
I'm not very good at explaining doctrine in general, and not much better at expressing what I really mean in scriptural terms. Some people are incisive and precise. I'm a sponge and rather messy. But I know what's true, and I don't disagree with Joe OR Marques. Go figure.
As far as the 'prophetic' elements to this particular scripture, I always see them. Jesus Christ (the author and finisher of this faith) Is, Was, and Shall be. Everything that is of Him is, was, and shall be. Now we see through a glass darkly that which was shadow and will be fully revealed. And when He appears, we (are, were, and) shall be like Him, for we shall (do, and have) see(n) Him as He truly Is (was, and shall be). Now is a foretaste of what shall be and what was prophecied even as it was being written. Told ya I was messy. :D
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Hey Guys,
I don't think anyone is disputing the future application of this scripture.
It was more important to understand its present application before I could apply to future events e.g. the next age.
I believe the discussion helped Emmanuel and myself with understanding what this scripture is saying.
No way am I doubting the prophecy present in many scriptures but "no prophecy is of an private interpretation"
So I needed other scriptures to help my understanding of this section of verses.
I hope this clears it up!!
Antaiwan
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Just sticking my nose in this, hope no one bites it off. But here is what i found while looking for an answer to a different thread. There are more Scriptures that witness to this, but it is very good exercise to search them out, sometimes there is a huge Gold nugget just waiting for us in The Word.
2Cor 5:17-19 (GNB)
17 Anyone who is joined to Christ is a new being; the old is gone, the new has come.
18 All this is done by God, who through Christ changed us from enemies into his friends and gave us the task of making others his friends also.
19 Our message is that God was making all human beings his friends through Christ. God did not keep an account of their sins, and he has given us the message which tells how he makes them his friends.
2Cor 5:17-21 (CLV)
17 So that, if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: the primitive passed by. Lo! there has come new!"
18 Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation,
19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation."
20 For Christ, then, are we ambassadors, as of God entreating through us. We are beseeching for Christ's sake, "Be conciliated to God!"
21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him."
george. :)
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I only asked for folks to consider the prophetic or the culmination of the Kingdom fulfillment.
15:28 But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, (The Universe IS being made subject to Him through Judgment on the House of God NOW and for the last 2000 years. WHEN the whole universe has been made subject to Him THEN every knee shall bow) THEN the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that GOD may be all in all.
Is God all in all for us? Are our names written in the Book of Life?
Job 41:1 Can you (we) draw out the leviathan with a hook, or hold down his tongue with a cord?
Until THEN, humankind, Oh man, 666, Beast, carnal mind of the flesh, we shall ALL be subject to vanity BUT NOT ONLY VANITY BUT ALSO HOPE. The few chosen containing the deposit of His Spirit as a down payment for the Hope that is within and yet to be revealed shall endure and overcome this wicked generation and despisers of God’s Word.
Non can obey God without His Spirit.
A converted heart and mind is what God desires in those who worship him. L Ray Smith
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, ( Christ has made us free, not free OF Him but free WITH Him as partakers of HIS Freedom and HIS Faith. ) and do not again be held with the yoke of bondage.
2Co 1:24 Not that we have dominion over your faith, but we are helpers of your joy; for by faith you stand. 8)
2Ti 3:16 ALL Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work.
Arc