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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Lupac on January 13, 2010, 01:10:56 PM
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Okay, I've been studying what the early church taught, and it seems to me that they believed in nether eternal torment, nor that Jesus would safe all, but in "conditional immortality", meaning those who are not Christ's would be annihilated. Supposedly, Barnabas, Ignatius, Polycarp, and Justin Martyr all believed in "eternal death". I know Polycarp wasn't a very good Christian anyway, I think he's the one that said the teaching of hell wasn't truthful, but useful. Anyway, did any of the "church fathers" believe Christ would save all? (The earliest ones, not Origen.) I know Paul said that as soon as he left, the "wolves" were coming to deceive the flock. Thanks.
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Okay, I've been studying what the early church taught, and it seems to me that they believed in nether eternal torment, nor that Jesus would safe all, but in "conditional immortality", meaning those who are not Christ's would be annihilated. Supposedly, Barnabas, Ignatius, Polycarp, and Justin Martyr all believed in "eternal death". I know Polycarp wasn't a very good Christian anyway, I think he's the one that said the teaching of hell wasn't truthful, but useful. Anyway, did any of the "church fathers" believe Christ would save all? (The earliest ones, not Origen.) I know Paul said that as soon as he left, the "wolves" were coming to deceive the flock. Thanks.
Excuse me Lupac but who cares what the 'early church fathers' taught? I thought we were following Christ, not 'church fathers'.
Jesus has a doctrine, we don't need to follow another one:
John 7:16-17 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me. If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
1 John 4:14 We have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world
Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone of His church...no other foundation can be laid which is Jesus. Our faith begins and ends with Him...we are complete in Jesus.
Marques
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I am trying to follow Christ, but I thought the early "fathers" would be closer to the truth than what came later.
Sorry for trying to get to the bottom of everything.
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I am trying to follow Christ, but I thought the early "fathers" would be closer to the truth than what came later.
Sorry for trying to get to the bottom of everything.
Lupac,
Marques is right, it doesn't really matter what the Early Church(2nd-4th Century) believed, but what the Scriptures testify, don't forget the Church " Fathers" were laden with errors too; Immortality of the Soul, Annihilation, Bodily Resurrection of Christ, Adam & Eve created Flawless in Character(Spiritually Perfect), A literal physical future punishment, even if remedial, etc, etc. However, I sent you a PM attempting to help you on this regarding the Universal Reconcilation of All, as that, in some form was the prevailing Doctrine regarding the fate of Human Kind for at least 4-5 Centuries. You will have to do alittle work by reading and researching the references I sent you. If you have any problems, PM me back, but you must make the effort, the tools are there.
Hope This Helps, Samson.
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Thank you all. I guess I see the men closest to Jesus and His apostles, even the apostles themselves as having perfect teaching, when Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the only perfect teachers...
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Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1004.msg8462.html#msg8462):
Dear Pam:
Sometimes in life, Pam, you will not and cannot find a definitive answer to every question that you have. You won't find it in a dictionary, at your church, or in a friend. And at times even God does not appear to give you a needed answer. What are you to do? LIVE BY FAITH. Make a decision on all the facts you have, and then just do it. God gave us "minds" for a reason and a purpose. We are to use and exercise them. What should I wear today? Just make a decision and put something on. I know people who have worked very little in life because they never quite knew what they wanted to be "when they got big." But won't you possibly make mikstakes by living by faith? DUH! Of course you will make mistakes. A large part of life consists of making mistakes and learning from them.
God be with you,
Ray
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2969.msg21959.html#msg21959):
Dear Chad:
God does not want the world to know He really is at this time, if He did, He would maybe do some of the things you suggest. We are to "live by FAITH" the Sciptures tell us. Living by faith means that we accept God at His word without ANY PHYSICAL PROOF of what He says. This may not be your time for God to reveal Himself to you.
May God open your eyes to see the invisible,
Ray
Sorry for trying to get to the bottom of everything.
Lupac, the time will come when you will have to step out WITHOUT seeing the 'bottom of everything'. No one here has gotten to the 'bottom of everything' either...we simply have to trust God at His Word.
That is why the scriptures refer to us as Believers. We believe ('have faith in') God to do what He says He will do and perform in the earth as well as the entire universe. I know you feel frustrated that all your posts continue to clash with others, but lack of faith is the reason why.
You continue to want some sort of proof as to why we, the apostles, the prophets, and Christ in His ministry look to God and place our total dependence on Him. Aren't our very lives 'proof' enough?
Jesus gave us the perfect example...willing to be beaten and crucified while maintaining total reliance on God to bring Him through.
Paul and Peter being beaten and eventually killed for walking in these same truths.
All the hate mail and vile threats Ray receives...some even glory in the fact he has cancer. And for what? He hasn't swindled people out of 10% of their money, promoted violence or oppression, exploited children or anything of the sort. Ray simply brings the good news, God reconciling the world to Himself, and takes all the abuse when he could have simply kept to himself and be happy and content with the Truth as he knew it.
Like I said before, one day you're going to believe these scriptures and have to step out on faith...you may not see it yet but it is going to come.
Marques
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Hi Lupac,
Another thing to consider, is that we can see that probably many of the early Believers had left the church/synagogue, because of the persecution they were facing and were coming together in homes. Here is an excerpt that explains that and there is also an excerpt that states there were 'early church fathers' that did believe in universal reconciliation and the last email about the early fathers knew there was no word for eternity in Scriptures.
http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html ---------
Did new converts to Christ continue to attend synagogues to be edified in their new-found-faith? NO! They were persecuted in the synagogues! They left the synagogues. They left the mother Church. Remember our lesson where Jesus said, "I will build My church..." (Matt. 16:18). Jesus didn’t say that He would purify or purge the existing Church. No, Jesus built a New Church—His Church, "MY Church" Jesus called it.
And so it was in the religion of Judaism that the people learned of God and the Law of Moses. But when they learned of the gospel of Jesus Christ, they were forced to "COME OUT OF HER…"
When we read the history of the Apostles in the book of Acts, they and their new converts to Jesus did not continue to worship Jesus in the synagogues. They now began to meet among themselves and in private homes. Paul’s habit was to go to the synagogues of whatever city he was evangelizing to teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul did not go to these synagogues to worship Jesus Christ, but rather to teach that Jesus was the Christ. And those who were truly called of God left the synagogues and met with believers of like mind in private homes.
It is true that the Apostles continued for a time to go up to the Temple (not the local synagogues), but they were warned under threat of death that they should discontinue teaching in the Temple. But Peter, who denied Christ three times just weeks earlier, now spoke fearlessly:
"And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to TEACH AND PREACH Jesus Christ" (Acts 5:42).
THE CHURCH OF GOD IN PRIVATE HOUSES
There was a transition period where the disciples still went up to the temple, but God’s intimate dealings would now be found in more humble surroundings. When the Holy Spirit was poured out on the first Saints of Jesus, it was not in a synagogue, but in a house:
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all THE HOUSE where they were sitting" (Acts 2:1-2).
Church services were held in houses:
"Likewise greet the church that is in their house" (Rom. 16:5).
"The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house" (I Cor. 16:19).
"Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house� (Col., 4:15).
"Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer, and to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in your house" (Philemon 1-2).
When we come to the famous Jerusalem Conference in the fifteenth chapter of Acts, we read that Paul and Barnabas were "…being brought on their way by the CHURCH…" (Acts 15:3). This is the Church of Jesus Christ, not the church of the synagogue system. Notice that in this conference their determination was to not force the Law of Moses on new Gentile converts:
"Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with THE WHOLE CHURCH…" (Acts 15:22).
The High Priests did not attend this conference. This was the first ‘ecumenical counsel,’ if you will, of the Church of Jesus Christ, consisting of only those who believed, who formulated policy which would be binding on the whole church.
The Jews had "synagogues"—church buildings. The newly converted Christians came out of those synagogue church buildings and their doctrines, and met in homes. Why? Mostly because Christ was not taught or tolerated in these synagogues. In order to worship and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, it became necessary to "come out of her"—the synagogue system of religion.
Jesus Christ, the teachings of Jesus Christ, and the followers of Jesus Christ were hated and despised by most leaders of most synagogues. Do we think that anything has changed regarding this in today’s churches? If Jesus Christ returned to virtually any Christian church in the world today, unrecognized in a business suit, and began teaching His own Gospel, the leaders of the churches would throw Him out. And I say this without the least hesitation as to what the implications of my statement are.
http://bible-truths.com/student.htm --------
You can say that I believe contrary to Graham, Spurgeon, or Sunday, but I guarantee you that the early church fathers did not believe in the unscriptural heresy of endless torture. Among those who saw God' greater glory in the greater hope of salvation to all are, Origen, Eusebius, St. Ambrose, St. Gregory, Didymus (of whom S. Jerome said, "Didymus surpassed all of his day [380] in knowledge of the Scriptures). "The Eastern Church of that time (fourth and fifth centuries) was permeated, from Gregory of Nyssa downwards, with the wider Hope [that of universal reconciliation]. See Spirits in Prison, Ch. iv. Also: Diodorus (378), Bishop of Tarsus, St. Chrysostom from the school of Antioch, and the list goes on and on. And many of these men read the Scriptures in their original languages long before the KJV started inserting such nonsensical incoherency as "for ever AND EVER" into its pages.
The evidence is available in both secular history and the Scriptures. Most intoxicated with the liquor of Christendom, however, have no desire to know the truth. "Indeed, beside Origen, Gregory of Nyssa also, Gregory of Nazianzus, Basil, Abrose himself, and Jerome, taught everywhere the universal restitution of things, asserting simultaneously with it, AN END OF ETERNAL PUNISHMENT."--C.B. SCHLEUTER, pref. In Erig, (Migne.) Read, Christ Triumphant By Thomas Allin.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2598.0.html ----------
Words are not defined by "impressions." Greek "aions" always had reference to a period of time, be it short or long. This is true from the earliest Greek writings. The early church fathers also knew this to be true. It was in the year 540 that Justinian called for a church council. He wanted to establish that the life of the saint was to be "everlasting," and so concluded that it must be taught that the life of the doomed must also be "everlasting." He knew that the Greek words aion and aionios did not have this meaning of "everlasting," so he attached the word "ENDLESS" to these words which he knew meant ages. And so, thus was born the unscriptural, damnable heresy of "ENDLESS AGES." Here we have absolute irrefutable proof that "aions" did not mean endless or would not have been necessary to attached the word "endless" to a word if it also meant endless. "Everlasting punishment," and "eternal life" are theological LIES that have no place in the Scriptures.
God be with you,
Ray
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Hi Lupac,
Even the Apostles did not understand most of what Jesus Christ taught, until after His Resurrection when He (Jesus Christ) Opened up their Minds to understand The Scriptures.
(ASV)
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Was not our heart burning within us, while he spake to us in the way, while he opened to us the scriptures?
The same way today each persons mind, must, be opened, by This Same Jesus Christ; for you, and me, and they, to understand the Scriptures.
(Rotherham)
Luk 24:44 And he said unto them—These, are my words, which I spake unto you yet being with you: That all the things that are written in the law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms, concerning me, must needs be fulfilled.
Luk 24:45 Then, opened he their mind, to understand the Scriptures;
Luk 24:46 and said unto them—Thus, it is written, That the Christ, should suffer, and arise from among the dead on the third day;
Luk 24:47 And that repentance for remission of sins should be proclaimed upon his name unto all the nations,—beginning from Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 Ye, are witnesses of these things.
Luk 24:49 And lo! I, am sending forth the promise of my Father upon you; but tarry, ye, in the city, until ye be clothed, from on high, with power.
george :).
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Is it possible that we could be a little more gentle in our responses? I may be a bit sensitive, but Marques' initial response comes over as a bit harsh. His point may be well made but it could be interpreted as a put down of someone seeking answers. I'm just saying, let's try a little harder to ensure that our writings appear to be made in humility. Not everyone is at the same level of understanding. Please feel free to tell me I'm off the mark. I won't take it personally
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Is it possible that we could be a little more gentle in our responses? I may be a bit sensitive, but Marques' initial response comes over as a bit harsh. His point may be well made but it could be interpreted as a put down of someone seeking answers. I'm just saying, let's try a little harder to ensure that our writings appear to be made in humility. Not everyone is at the same level of understanding. Please feel free to tell me I'm off the mark. I won't take it personally
Just tough love Onelovedread, that's all...no malicious intent.
Marques
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I gotta remember that Marques for the kids. Just tough love. I like it. ;)
Roy
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I for one, enjoy History...not to prove anything to myself..but just to know. Before I found BT I was reading as much as I could on early church history, even from a catholic website. I wasn't looking for anything except history. Maybe it is bcz I am a teacher. sorry, but I don't feel its wrong to be reading up on early church "fathers". Now if you are not settled in your heart what is true from scripture, I wouldn't be looking for deep spiritual answers anywhere BUT scriptures.
Is it Ninny or Linny that has that really cool quote under their name....about when Christianity came to Rome....etc....well, that is History and interesting.
When newbies come calling w/ questions or help, they don't need to be put down or treated "less than" bcz they don't know everything yet. I hope he is still reading this thread and not feeling...well...put down.
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I agree Gena...and it's Linny who has the quote!! ;)
Kathy :)
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God had me studying Christian history (particularly Catholic) and getting a perspective there before He brought me here and it helped me immensely to see the truth in Ray's teachings.
I am like you Gena, a teacher with a need to see it and understand it from whence it came!
I will say however, that we have to be very careful about where we get the information we read. If it is out of Babylon, we can bet many (most) times it isn't true.
For now Lupac, why not spend your time reading Ray's info on history as it is definitely not out of Babylon and he has spent a great deal of time finding credible sources. Saves me a lot of time! ;)
Lin
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Hi Lupac,
I too researched early church teachings as a tool to contradict the teachings we see being taught today in the churches. I came across this but for the life of me I don't remember where.
There were six theological schools around 300-400AD, 4-taught universal reconciliation, 1-taught complete annihilation, and 1-taught eternal punishment.
I found this to be useful when I was debating with my ex-pastor (before I left the church) ;D
tinknocker
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Is it possible that we could be a little more gentle in our responses? I may be a bit sensitive, but Marques' initial response comes over as a bit harsh. His point may be well made but it could be interpreted as a put down of someone seeking answers. I'm just saying, let's try a little harder to ensure that our writings appear to be made in humility. Not everyone is at the same level of understanding. Please feel free to tell me I'm off the mark. I won't take it personally
Or perhaps we could it with actual *real* humility (assuming that 'it' , whatever 'it' is, even needs to be done, at all)
:)
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Okay, I've been studying what the early church taught, and it seems to me that they believed in nether eternal torment, nor that Jesus would safe all, but in "conditional immortality", meaning those who are not Christ's would be annihilated. Supposedly, Barnabas, Ignatius, Polycarp, and Justin Martyr all believed in "eternal death". I know Polycarp wasn't a very good Christian anyway, I think he's the one that said the teaching of hell wasn't truthful, but useful. Anyway, did any of the "church fathers" believe Christ would save all? (The earliest ones, not Origen.) I know Paul said that as soon as he left, the "wolves" were coming to deceive the flock. Thanks.
Lupac,
You have to keep in mind that as Christianity grew, many of the converts were 'former' pagans; the pagans had all sorts of strange rituals and myths, and many who did convert to Christianity still kept some or perhaps much of their former traditions. We see this especially from the time that Rome declared Christianity as their official religion. In order for this new religion and Roman church to grow and become powerful, many pagans were allowed to come in and become teachers, bishops, and priests, without having to deny their former pagan beliefs.
So, therefore, it's no surprise that there should be differences of opinions between the Early Church Fathers; men like Augustine and Tertullian did belief in endless torture by fire; while men like Origen and his followers opposed them and believed in an eventual "restitution of all" [Acts 3:19-21]. But at the same time, all these men where likewise guilty of believing in other pagan doctrines, not supported by Scripture.
In all this, I concur with the advice of Marques and others who posted before me: All that really matters is what Jesus Christ and His Apostles taught us. All that matters is what the Scriptures teach.
Daywalker 8)
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I love your answer - "tough love" Marques. Hey, you've got to do what you gotta do as long as it's from a motive of love. "Lupac's taking it like a man" (lol) I often wish I'd have gotten some of that when I was younger. I just feel led to go back again to Ray's teachings over and over, studying them and reflecting on the scriptures that so powerfully underline his points. I feel inspired to really get into the Word, to unlearn all the erroneous doctrines of "Christianity" and to allow God's spirit to truly fill me. BTW, One day I want to meet up with all of you guys in person!
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Okay, I've been studying what the early church taught, and it seems to me that they believed in nether eternal torment, nor that Jesus would safe all, but in "conditional immortality", meaning those who are not Christ's would be annihilated. Supposedly, Barnabas, Ignatius, Polycarp, and Justin Martyr all believed in "eternal death". I know Polycarp wasn't a very good Christian anyway, I think he's the one that said the teaching of hell wasn't truthful, but useful. Anyway, did any of the "church fathers" believe Christ would save all? (The earliest ones, not Origen.) I know Paul said that as soon as he left, the "wolves" were coming to deceive the flock. Thanks.
Lupac,
You have to keep in mind that as Christianity grew, many of the converts were 'former' pagans; the pagans had all sorts of strange rituals and myths, and many who did convert to Christianity still kept some or perhaps much of their former traditions. We see this especially from the time that Rome declared Christianity as their official religion. In order for this new religion and Roman church to grow and become powerful, many pagans were allowed to come in and become teachers, bishops, and priests, without having to deny their former pagan beliefs.
So, therefore, it's no surprise that there should be differences of opinions between the Early Church Fathers; men like Augustine and Tertullian did belief in endless torture by fire; while men like Origen and his followers opposed them and believed in an eventual "restitution of all" [Acts 3:19-21]. But at the same time, all these men where likewise guilty of believing in other pagan doctrines, not supported by Scripture.
In all this, I concur with the advice of Marques and others who posted before me: All that really matters is what Jesus Christ and His Apostles taught us. All that matters is what the Scriptures teach.
Daywalker 8)
You're right. I was thinking more of the people right after the apostles. But I realize now that the apostles are it. They're the only ones who got it right.
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You're right. I was thinking more of the people right after the apostles. But I realize now that the apostles are it. They're the only ones who got it right.
I wouldn't necessarily say that they were it.. as some did stand by the apostles. But, yes, I would stick with their teachings contained in the New Testament, rather than the many other epistles that didn't make it into the Bible. Read them for historical education, if you'd like, but be sure to consult the Scriptures before accepting something as "the Truth".
Here's a few sections of Scripture where Christ and the Apostles warn their followers [and us] of Church Apostasy:
Matthew 24:5 For many shall be coming in My name, saying, 'I [Jesus] am the Christ!' and shall be deceiving many.
verse 24 For roused shall be false christs and false prophets, and they shall be giving great signs and miracles, so as to deceive, if possible, even the chosen.
Mark 7:7 Yet in vain are they revering Me, teaching for teachings the directions of men.
Acts 20:27 for under no circumstances do I [Paul] shrink from informing you of the entire counsel of God.
28 Take heed to yourselves and to the entire flocklet, among which the holy spirit appointed you supervisors, to be shepherding the ecclesia of God, which He procures through the blood of His Own.
29 Now I am aware that, after I am out of reach, burdensome wolves will be entering among you, not sparing the flocklet.
30 And from AMONG YOURSELVES will arise men, speaking perverse things to pull away disciples after themselves.
31 Wherefore watch, remembering that for three years, night and day, I cease not admonishing each one with tears.
32 And now I am committing you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to edify and give the enjoyment of an allotment among all who have been hallowed.
II Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light.
15 It is no great thing, then, if his servants also are being transfigured as dispensers of righteousness -- whose consummation shall be according to their acts.
II Peter 2:1 Yet there came to be false prophets also among the people, as AMONG YOU ALSO there WILL BE false teachers who will be smuggling in destructive sects, even disowning the Owner Who buys them, bringing on themselves swift destruction."
2 And many will be following out their wantonness, because of whom the glory of the truth will be calumniated,
3 and in greed, with suave words, they will traffic in you, whose judgment of old is not idling, and their destruction is not nodding
These are just a few of many warnings all throughout the Scriptures...
Daywalker 8)
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Thank you all. I'm sorry I'm so unbelieving. I try not to be. I get myself in little "frenzies" because, I'll find out something that seems to contradict what I believe, I then go crazy trying to see if it's true or not.
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Is it possible that we could be a little more gentle in our responses? I may be a bit sensitive, but Marques' initial response comes over as a bit harsh. His point may be well made but it could be interpreted as a put down of someone seeking answers. I'm just saying, let's try a little harder to ensure that our writings appear to be made in humility. Not everyone is at the same level of understanding. Please feel free to tell me I'm off the mark. I won't take it personally
Onelovedread.
Just want to tell you, I am with you 100%.
I think some of the people on this form don't know how to be gentle.
EJW
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Thank you all. I'm sorry I'm so unbelieving. I try not to be. I get myself in little "frenzies" because, I'll find out something that seems to contradict what I believe, I then go crazy trying to see if it's true or not.
Hi Lupac,
In some strange way, I can relate to what you said here. A coworker who turned out to be a good friend and Brother in Christ that I had the pleasure of meeting a few years ago; he and I would get into what you mention as being "frenzies" to such a degree that most of the other coworkers around us thought we argued all the time. Our debates were high "spirited" to say the least and always about God, the Bible, what is the truth and everything that we had learned over the years. I must say that I enjoyed those days of long "debate" very much to the extent that I know that, speaking for myself only here, I like that kind of learning experience. It was a very positive time in my life. I think you have received some fantastic advice here and hope that you do not get discouraged and keep on running the good race. Never give up or give in, if you seek God and His truths; that's what you will find albeit could be different than what you know as being truth right now.
Iron shapeneth iron, its been said a million times and here it is again, there is a lot of iron here in this forum so....think like iron, feel like iron, Lupac, be iron!
EJW said,
I think some of the people on this form don't know how to be gentle.
That may or may not be true but when you get right down to it does that really matter? Concerning learning the truths of scripture, does it matter that one might learn it in a gentle way or not? I think not.
There is a time and season for everything under the sun we all know. A time for gentleness and a time to not be so gentle. When learning does one learn and retain better if it is delivered in a softer, kinder, gentler way or the opposite of that spectrum, a bold, firm way? I lean toward the latter. How does a General have his Drill Sergeant's teach and train his men/women under his command? There is a Great General coming that will be inspecting the lessor generals and drill Sergeant's and grunts and so on. What will He find at His coming, soldiers ready for battle or those in need of a lot of hard training?
One last thing and I'll go back to the Amen Pew. If someone answers a post in a manner that seems to be harsh or soft. Here in this forum, if you have read and believe Rays Teachings, then you know already that the answer given could not have been given in any other way, the choice made to deliver it in the manner given could not have been any other way and the OP heard it in the manner that could not have been heard in any other way.
Chillax, <--- Peace to Everyone, :)
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One last thing and I'll go back to the Amen Pew.
Chillax, <--- Peace to Everyone, :)
Lol, that's a classic statement right there! ;D :D ;)
To add to what you said, the one thing we here at the forum all have in common is that we were inspired by Ray's teachings. And I'd guesstimate about 35% of his writings are some form of sarcasm [the other 65% being Scriptures...]. By reading the many emails that Ray gets it's obvious that many are offended by them and think he's some crazy, angry old dude... But for me, it was his sarcasm that really opened my eyes. I am a pretty sarcastic person myself, and though I've been toning it down a bunch lately, still it's true that sometimes sarcasm is only way to make a point clear; especially to expose stupid doctrines as Ray does.
But there are times for sarcasm and times for gentleness, but knowing which 'time' it is requires discernment, and this is something that is learned, largely through making mistakes. As long as all of us here on the forum remember that we are all family and that we all love each other as a family, and that we can put our 'defense walls' down when we are here, then we will be less offended when one of our brothers or sisters says something that may sound a lil harsh or sarcastic, because we know that it's coming from a brother/sister, not from an enemy; and that it is said in love, to edify, not to demean or hurt.
In closing also, I'd like to add that if someone truly is deeply offended by someone's post, they should PM that person directly, and discuss it that way. I can say from personal experience that works out much better than altering the course of a thread; especially when chances are, you simply misunderstood what was said...
Ok, that's all folks...
Christopher 8)
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Thank you all. I'm sorry I'm so unbelieving. I try not to be. I get myself in little "frenzies" because, I'll find out something that seems to contradict what I believe, I then go crazy trying to see if it's true or not.
Lupac this little post of yours just told me a lot about you.You are honest and sincere. You trying not to be unbelieving just proves that God is in control. You show no signs of giving up. I too when I first started crying out to God didn't believe. Its not teachings I didn't trust, it was God I didn't believe in, but He didn't let me give up on reaching out to Him. I tried many times to give up, or run away from Him in every way. I've even tried to conflict truth with lies and deception since I've been here. but that was very short lived like a day or so, but here I am, and here you are, still pushing through the storm.
I think you appreciate Marques tough love comments, just as you appreciate the kind words from others. I have to give you credit that you are a fighter for truth even though you have your doubts of winning.
Hang in there Lupac.
Roy
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Bryant...as long as you're seeking, God will give you the answers you need. He won't leave you. He brought you here and He won't abandon you! Keep seeking"...seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness... and all these things will be added unto you.." absolutely, God will give you what you need, when you need it!!
Kathy ;)
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Bryant...as long as you're seeking, God will give you the answers you need. He won't leave you. He brought you here and He won't abandon you! Keep seeking"...seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness... and all these things will be added unto you.." absolutely, God will give you what you need, when you need it!!
Kathy ;)
!!! DITTO !!! Kathy.
george ;D.
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Excellent Kathy. God has him just where he wants him.
Also, our greatest blessings/strengths can often be our greatest stumbling blocks.
Two things I know about Bryant.
1) You are very intelligent.
2) You are very well read.
Now, I can safely say that I was accused of neither at age 18. :-[ :-\ ::)
Soaking up so much conflicting information during your searching must be very daunting for someone who is determined to find the truth. My advise is to limit your information to sources you know and trust. I believe you trust Ray as a resource and studying on your own, in a good Bible, with God's help, may calm your unrest and remove some of your conflicting information.
Hang in there. You will be just fine. :-*
Lin
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Thank you Ninny. I don't feel very intelligent. I never really believed in a sense of "Wow, this all makes perfect sense.", it was always more like "God will throw you in hell if you mess up, don't even THINK the wrong thing.". I try to be well read in anything I talk about. Before I believed in what Ray teaches, I would get on Apologetic sites, just to try and "prove" my faith to myself. (Needless to say, it never worked.) I thank you all for putting up with me. I... have no idea what else to say.
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Has anyone here ever read Foxe's book of Martyrs, or know if Ray has ever mentioned it? If anyone has read it what do you think about his writings, and or hisrory?
Joel
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Thanks Christopher(Daywalker),
I copied and pasted a paragraph point from your last Post, See below in blue. It seems like a simple solution to this ongoing problem of misunderstandings regarding "how" things are said and "how" a person really meant it. Now, let's wait and see, if all of us start applying it, ;).
Daywalkers simple, but important point below.
In closing also, I'd like to add that if someone truly is deeply offended by someone's post, they should PM that person directly, and discuss it that way. I can say from personal experience that works out much better than altering the course of a thread; especially when chances are, you simply misunderstood what was said...
Kind Regards, Samson.
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Hi Lupac,
I too researched early church teachings as a tool to contradict the teachings we see being taught today in the churches. I came across this but for the life of me I don't remember where.
There were six theological schools around 300-400AD, 4-taught universal reconciliation, 1-taught complete annihilation, and 1-taught eternal punishment.
I found this to be useful when I was debating with my ex-pastor (before I left the church) ;D
tinknocker
I read this in the New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge.
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Lupac,
Before I found BT I spent 30 years trying to prove Hell wrong in scripture and couldn't do it because the words everlasting and eternal stopped me dead in my tracks. I had no answer for those words. When I found BT Ray explained it perfectly. I had the proof, but I was still afraid to believe it because of all the fear the churches had instilled in me. I spent 2 weeks sick in bed until God finally set me free from the fear.
Believing there is no hell really gave me peace, but it didn't change any part of the process and didn't let me off the hook at all. If you are trying to get off the hook by believing in no hell it will not help. We must all have the experience of good and evil and we must all face judgment either now or later. There is no way around it.
Isaiah 26:9
My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.
Ecclesiastes 12:14 (New International Version)
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.
Romans 14:10 (New International Version)
10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.
2 Thessalonians 1:5 (New International Version)
5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.
1 Peter 4:17 (New International Version)
17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
Mark 7:20-22 (New International Version)
20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "
Romans 3 (New International Version)
10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Start really reading Ray's papers and study them.
It's not easy, but we are all in this together and God is in complete control of all of it.
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But there are times for sarcasm and times for gentleness, but knowing which 'time' it is requires discernment, and this is something that is learned, largely through making mistakes. As long as all of us here on the forum remember that we are all family and that we all love each other as a family, and that we can put our 'defense walls' down when we are here, then we will be less offended when one of our brothers or sisters says something that may sound a lil harsh or sarcastic, because we know that it's coming from a brother/sister, not from an enemy; and that it is said in love, to edify, not to demean or hurt.
Well said Christopher, and totally Scriptural.
Luk 17:3 "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, REBUKE HIM; and if he repents, forgive him.
2Th 3:15 Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but ADMONISH HIM as a brother.
Heb 12:11 Now chastening for the present does not seem to be joyous, but grievous. Nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who are exercised by it.
Peace, G.Driggs
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Thank you all. I'm sorry I'm so unbelieving. I try not to be. I get myself in little "frenzies" because, I'll find out something that seems to contradict what I believe, I then go crazy trying to see if it's true or not.
Hi Lupac,
In some strange way, I can relate to what you said here. A coworker who turned out to be a good friend and Brother in Christ that I had the pleasure of meeting a few years ago; he and I would get into what you mention as being "frenzies" to such a degree that most of the other coworkers around us thought we argued all the time. Our debates were high "spirited" to say the least and always about God, the Bible, what is the truth and everything that we had learned over the years. I must say that I enjoyed those days of long "debate" very much to the extent that I know that, speaking for myself only here, I like that kind of learning experience. It was a very positive time in my life. I think you have received some fantastic advice here and hope that you do not get discouraged and keep on running the good race. Never give up or give in, if you seek God and His truths; that's what you will find albeit could be different than what you know as being truth right now.
Iron shapeneth iron, its been said a million times and here it is again, there is a lot of iron here in this forum so....think like iron, feel like iron, Lupac, be iron!
EJW said,
I think some of the people on this form don't know how to be gentle.
That may or may not be true but when you get right down to it does that really matter? Concerning learning the truths of scripture, does it matter that one might learn it in a gentle way or not? I think not.
There is a time and season for everything under the sun we all know. A time for gentleness and a time to not be so gentle. When learning does one learn and retain better if it is delivered in a softer, kinder, gentler way or the opposite of that spectrum, a bold, firm way? I lean toward the latter. How does a General have his Drill Sergeant's teach and train his men/women under his command? There is a Great General coming that will be inspecting the lessor generals and drill Sergeant's and grunts and so on. What will He find at His coming, soldiers ready for battle or those in need of a lot of hard training?
One last thing and I'll go back to the Amen Pew. If someone answers a post in a manner that seems to be harsh or soft. Here in this forum, if you have read and believe Rays Teachings, then you know already that the answer given could not have been given in any other way, the choice made to deliver it in the manner given could not have been any other way and the OP heard it in the manner that could not have been heard in any other way.
Chillax, <--- Peace to Everyone, :)
Stacey,
Yes I think it does matter. I was not talking about how one learns the truth of scriptures.
I agree with you, there is a time to be gentle, and a time not to be so gentle.
But you have to use a little wisdom as to when to be gentle or not to be so gentle.
What I was refering to was the quote from, onelovedread. " is it possible that we could be a little more gentle
in our responses?__ but Marques inital response came over as a bit harsh."
EJW
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Hey maybe we could use this as a guideline? ;)
2Timothy 2:23-26 But reject foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they breed quarrels. The Lord's slave must not quarrel, but must be gentle to everyone, able to teach, and patient, instructing his opponents with gentleness. Perhaps God will grant them repentance to know the truth. Then they may come to their senses and escape the Devil's trap, having been captured by him to do his will.
tinknocker