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=> Testimonies / Prayer Requests / Fellowship => Topic started by: Lupac on February 02, 2010, 05:25:06 PM
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Maybe you guys can help me. I'm at the point now where I don't know what to believe. I've talked to Roy and Kat about this, but I figured maybe someone else could help me. I'm starting to think the the bible, isn't anymore true than any other religion's book. I want to believe the scriptures. I want to stop worrying about this and that. And despite my best efforts, I'm still afraid that no matter what I do, if I don't follow what I used to believe, God is going to be angry at me and put me in hell. For a long time, I looked for every way to validate what I believed, because if I thought anything wasn't true, I was going to hell. I tried so hard to believe, because if I didn't, it was hopeless for me. I want to believe this (Truth, what the scriptures teach.), I'm GOING to believe this. Can anyone help me? Thank you.
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To be honest I'm not sure how much more we can do for you. A few weeks back you made a commitment I believe to stay off of those other sites that keep putting doubt in your mind. Did you do that? It all comes down to what you personally believe about God. More than enough truth has been shown in the teachings and from the Word of God that the Christian 'Hell' is myth perpetuated by the Church. If you believe that God is love and that we were created by him then you also have to believe that Hell is not love. How is creating billions of creatures with a finely tuned nervous system and then knowing in advance that your going to torture the vast majority of these creatures for trillions of years love? Quit dipping your toes in the doubt and unbelief you are finding in the world of Christendom. If the teachings here are true then then it will be proven to you as you endure. God himself will confirm it to your spirit. I wish I could offer some words that would settle it for you but I can't. Just quit dipping your bill and drinking from the pollution found in the contemporary church system and in time it will become clearer to you.
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I've haven't been anywhere else but here. Certainly not about any hell teachings. Look, maybe I should go for a while. No one can help me except God.
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Bryant, I'm just going to pray that you will find peace..without peace we are like wandering nomads, none of us us any different...Jesus said, "Peace I leave to you; my peace I give to you, not according as the world doth give do I give to you; let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be afraid;..." John14:27 YLT
We all need peace, the peace that comes from "knowing in your knower" as a friend of mine used to say...that no matter what happens to us, God has us in the palm of his hand...either God is big enough to make all things possible or He is not...no rebuke my friend, at all, just a prayer and a hope that you will find your answers and you will let God be your answer...You're not the only one, I assure you..you are not the only one to wonder if all God says is true and if there really is a God out there at all..but I pray that He will give you the peace that you need...You're such a sweet little brother and I have been praying for you... :)
I would also agree with Mark...give your all to God and let Him prove Himself to you :)
Kathy :-*
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Hello Lupac.
Arion gave an excellent reply and his words ring true.
From your blog site.
Cannabis: I consider myself a connoisseur of all things cannabis.
I think that you should maybe clear your mind and show your Creator that you mean business when it comes to His Ways and His Truths that you so desperately seem to want to learn.
One cannot receive the things of the Spirit with a mind cluttered in worldly desires.Ask and pray with a pure heart and mind,after all, the mind is the gateway to the Spirit.
Always pray that Gods will,will be done.
Peace to you... Mark
Okay. I haven't smoked in weeks, and when I did, it was one of the few things like allowed to clear my mind to the point of not letting these things bother me. I felt closer to God because I could "push" away, in my mind, the things that bother me. But maybe you're right. (It would do me no good to argue, as I'm in no position to.) I've never been taught how to receive the Spirit. I've denied myself everything I've thought to be "bad". I'm 18 years old, and I've never even had a girl-friend. I don't go out on weekend nights, hoping to hook-up with some girl, like a lot of people I know. I feel completely alone, in everything I think and believe. Maybe, I've been trying to hard to believe. I can't relax though. Even now, I feel like, I wouldn't say guilt, but that uneasy feeling you get, when you're in a uncomfortable situation? I feel like that right now, and most of every day, all day. I'm thinking about going back to my old doctor. Maybe he can help me...
Ninny, thank you. You've helped me so much. I can't bring myself to trust and love God. I try to, I pray, everyday that He'd help me.
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Bryant, sweetheart this is the reason I pray for you..because the feeling of hopelessness comes over me for you, not because I don't think God can help you, but because YOU haven't learned to trust Him yet..Since I have learned that God is an awesome Father who loves his children beyond all understanding...It is always my prayer that everyone who has trouble believing will also come to know and trust God as a Father who loves us! :)
Kathy \o/ ;)
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Most people your age are not concerned whatsoever about God or about knowing the truth of things. If you had no desire at all about God then none of the things your dealing with would bother you as you wouldn't even been thinking about it. Reflecting back when I was your age I spent some time tip toeing through some of the cults. I read about Armstrongism, the jw's, the mormons, and the various Christian denominations and I as well was somewhat confused because they all contradicted each other. It's simply going to take time for these things to shake out for you and unfortunately there are things in life that there are no short cuts to.
We can point you towards a lot of things that prove that the scriptures are true. We have many hours of teachings here from Ray using the scriptures that prove the things that are said. You said 'No one can help me except God,' and your absolutely right. We can show you these things but God is going to have to open your heart to them. The best suggestion I can make for something that you can actually 'do' (and this is something I do almost every day) is to download the audio teachings and try to listen as often as possible. If the things that Ray is teaching us is true then the more we look into them (the teachings) will prove that what we are taught is the truth. If what Ray teaches is in error then the more we look into them and compare them with the scriptures will show they are in error. I've been around the block many times in my Christian searching for faith and I can tell you that I find truth here consistantly.
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Lupac, your greatest fear seems to be of going to hell, so let's review what this doctrine is all about.
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html -----
I said that "everlasting punishment" is NOT SCRIPTURAL, but is based on the Latin word aeternus which comes directly out of the Catholic Vulgate Bible.
Satan is a master at what he does, and what he does is DECEIVE (Rev. 12:9). How could Satan get the entire Church of Christ to believe in and worship the rank paganism of sinful Egypt? By writing manuscripts discrediting God’s Word? By getting men to accuse God falsely? By getting a bunch of kids to start churches of Satanism? No, nothing so elaborate. Such things are but smoke screens. All Satan did to change the ENTIRE Word of God from something meaningful and marvelous into something dreadful and deplorable, was to change the meaning of one little word. ONE WORD, would "deceive the WHOLE WORLD" (Rev. 12:9).
The doctrine came from Egypt, from where it was borrowed by the Greeks, and passed on to the Romans. In order for the Catholic Church to hold on to this pagan doctrine, so as to have almost supernatural power over the people by the use of this fear doctrine, they found it needful to find a way to interject this most damnable of all pagan doctrines, into the very translation of the Scriptures themselves. This is the single most egregious sin against "man adding unto the things of God’s word" in the history of God’s recorded word.
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All of the worst religious teachings of pagan Rome, are still in the Christian Church. The major Christian doctrines of, who is man, what is man, what is man’s purpose on earth, and what is man’s eternal destiny, are believed by Catholics and Protestants alike, and all of them are pagan to the core. And all of them came from pagan Egypt, through pagan Greece, through pagan Rome, into the Church of Rome, through the King James Bible, and into the homes and lives of billions of unsuspecting Christians worldwide.
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KEEPING THE DUMB SHEEP DUMB
Since none of these things which the Jews of Jesus’ day believed were taught in the Law of Moses, just where did the Jews learn of these pagan doctrines?
Most theologians are clearly deceived, however, not all are ignorant. Many theologians know at least some of the material I am presenting to you. But they don’t want you to know or understand any of it. It has been the purpose of the ruling privileged elite to keep the masses at bay by evil indoctrinations, deceptions, and gross fear.
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The whole thing is designed for effect, to influence the multitude, to restrain their passions, and to aid the magistrate and ruler in keeping them subject to authority. It is the invention of priests and lawmakers, who take this as the easiest method of governing the people. They claim the "right divine" to govern; claim that their laws originate with the gods, as we have shown above; and that, therefore, the gods will visit on all offenders the terrors and tortures of the damned. Hence, through the joint cunning of priest and legislator, of church and state, mutually supporting each the other, we have all the stupendous frauds and falsehoods respecting the invisible world."
HISTORIANS ACKNOWLEDGE THE INVENTION OF PAGANISM
Polybius, the historian, says:
"Since the multitude is ever fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the invisible world; on which account our ancestors seem to me to have acted judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these notions of the gods, and of the infernal regions." B. vi 56.
Dionysius Halicarnassus treats the whole matter as useful, but not as true. Antiq. Rom., B. ii Livy, the celebrated historian, speaks of it in the same spirit; and he praises the wisdom of Numa, because he invented the fear of the gods, as "a most efficacious means of governing an ignorant and barbarous populace." Hist., I 19.
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Plato, in his commentary on Timaeus, fully endorses what he says respecting the fabulous invention of these foreign torments.
And Strabo says that "Plato and the Brahmins of India invented fables concerning the future judgments of hell" (Hades).
And Chrysippus blames Plato for attempting to deter men from wrong by frightful stories of future punishments.
Plato himself is exceedingly inconsistent, sometimes adopting, even in his serious discourses, the fables of the poets, and at other times rejecting them as utterly false, and giving too frightful views of the invisible world. Sometimes, he argues, on social grounds, that they are necessary to restrain bad men from wickedness and crime, and then again he protests against them on political grounds, as intimidating the citizens, and making cowards of the soldiers, who, believing these things, are afraid of death, and do not therefore fight well. But all this shows in what light he regarded them; not as truths, certainly, but as fictions, convenient in some cases, but difficult to manage in others.
Plutarch treats the subject in the same way; sometimes arguing for them with great solemnity and earnestness, and on other occasions calling them "fabulous stories, the tales of mothers and nurses."
Seneca says:
"Those things which make the infernal regions terrible, the darkness, the prison, the river of flaming fire, the judgment seat, &c., are all a fable, with which the poets amuse themselves, and by them agitate us with vain terrors." Sextus Empiricus calls them "poetic fables of hell;" and Cicero speaks of them as "silly absurdities and fables" (ineptiis ac fabulis).
Aristotle.
"It has been handed down in mythical form from earliest times to posterity, that there are gods, and that the divine (Deity) compasses all nature. All beside this has been added, after the mythical style, for the purpose of persuading the multitude, and for the interests of the laws, and the advantage of the state." Neander's Church Hist., I, p. 7. 11
Another quote from Thomas Thayer’s paper on The Doctrine of Everlasting Punishment:
"Anyone at all familiar with the writings of the ancient Greeks or Romans, [who admittedly received their basis doctrine of hell from Egypt] cannot fail to note how often it is admitted by them that the national religions were the INVENTIONS OF THE LEGISLATOR AND THE PRIES, for the purpose of governing and restraining the common people [commonly called ‘dumb sheep’]."
Hence Augustine [considered by many to be the greatest theologian in history] says, in his ‘City of God,’
"This seems to have been done on no other account, but as it was the business of princes, out of their wisdom and civil prudence, to DECEIVE THE PEOPLE IN THEIR RELIGION; princes, under the name of religion, persuaded the people to believe those things true, which they themselves KNEW TO BE IDLE FABLES; by this means, for their own ease in government, tying them the more closely to civil society." (All CAPS emphasis is mine).
My, how well this religious deception of the masses continues to be in the 21st century.
THE CHRISTIANIZATION OF PAGANISM
When I say that virtually all of the doctrines and traditions of the Church are from pagan sources, I am not exaggerating. There are dozens of things that are pagan within the Church of Christendom today.
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There is so much to sort out in the articles at BT, but I'm just trying to give you a bit of reality to think about.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I've haven't been anywhere else but here. Certainly not about any hell teachings. Look, maybe I should go for a while. No one can help me except God.
Lupac,
Arions reply was thorough and covers the Spiritual part of it. I wonder if you might benefit from professional help, maybe you have some sort of anxiety disorder, I think you mentioned that you have Obsessive Compulsive Disorder in another Thread, a while back. The vibes I'm getting from reading your Posts for the last six months is you are excessively overcome by Fear and Anxiety to an unhealthy extent. Everything Spiritual: The answering of questions; Ray's thorough information and more than ample proof that you won't get punished in some fashion "Eternally" doesn't seem to be enough, because intellectually, you seem to understand these things, but not emotionally. A Professional may be able to help you with your Seratonin Levels to lesson your overwhelming anxiety, you might have a chemical imbalance. I didn't write this to offend or belittle you, I've had problems with Depression and Anxiety myself(Ritalin helped me), in the past and so has my Wife, it's nothing to be ashamed of either, but you "might" benefit from some help.
Take Care, Samson.
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Samson, thank you. I've told some of these things to Kat, but now, I'll say it to all of you. About a year ago, around Christmas, I had a really bad "break-down". At the time, I was worried that Satan was really "god" and I needed to start worshiping him. I ended up, going to a hospital after I told me parents I had thought about killing myself. It was a big mistake, my parents agreed with me, and... I have to go to work now. I'll explain more when I get home. In the end, I found a doctor that really helped me, but I never got free. I never tried taking any medication, or anything for it. I know intellectually, what's true and what isn't. If you put me up against a regular "ETer" I could probably wipe the floor with them. But that's not what I'm interested it.
Another thing that worries me is that the scriptures themselves aren't true. But more on that later. Thank you.
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Lupac: when I first was brought here by way of the Lord I read every paper Ray wrote here at BT. I read for weeks straight. There was so much new info that totally contradicted my belief system that I was blown away. Then after mos of studying I went into a sensory overload. I started think, how could billions of people be wrong and this one guy Ray is right. How in the world does he know the Truth and all the churches and pastors do not. Arion hit the nail on the head. "If the things that Ray is teaching us is true then the more we look into them (the teachings) will prove that what we are taught is the truth. If what Ray teaches is in error then the more we look into them and compare them with the scriptures will show they are in error". The truth will show itself. Once it does you will not be able to denied it. You will know in your heart and mind. You will feel the Truth in you being. Maby you need to take a step back, regroup, take a break, give your brain a rest. Hey Lupac, this is just my opinion for what it's worth. we wrestle against spirits and principalities. Satan does not want you to believe in the True Word of God. God is not the author of confusion, it is the devils work. The more you come to know the Truth the more Satan will try to wrestle you away. He is most happy keeping you in the dark. Remember, he is the great deceiver.
Darren
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I'm starting to think the the bible, isn't anymore true than any other religion's book
Another thing that worries me is that the scriptures themselves aren't true. But more on that later. Thank you.
I would like to help you to appreciate the Scripture more. But first, could you tell us why you (are beginning to) think that the Bible isn't true?
-Mijares
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Okay, I'm back from work. I'm definitely going to seek some help. I know what's true, but I can't "feel" what's true, if that makes any sense. Once I have some money, I'll call my old doctor. I might try some medication this time. (I've never taken any "drugs" for any problem. (A plant is not a drug. (Okay, maybe it is.)))
darren, thank you for your concern. I, don't really believe in a literal devil/Satan anymore. I know many of you will disagree with me, that's fine. I'm here to learn, not to teach my position. If Satan is real, then he's powerless to anything except what God allows him to, so it really doesn't matter if he exists or not, in my mind.
mmijares, I had all of this thought out earlier, before I went to work. Now it's all kind of vague. It's a lot of things, all the books not seeming to agree with each other, (2 Kings 10:30 - Hosea 1:4, for example) things Jehovah/Jesus did in the OT that seem, really, um... horrible. (barbaric, maybe?). There are some other things, but maybe it would be better to message me, rather then discuss them here. (Although, the fact that Jesus will save all men puts things into better perspective.)
Also, if anyone could answer my question here, I'd be very grateful:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11323.0.html (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11323.0.html)
I need to get out of my parent's house. But even then, I'll be close by, and I'll need to explain to them why I won't be attending church anymore, that won't be fun. They're very caught up in Babylon. We go to church every Sunday, my Mom listens to "American Family Radio" all the time, we have R.C. Sproul JR's "Every Thought Captive" magazines in the house. They're also very caught up in the political system. They don't understand why I'm not worried about anything that's going on in D.C. I tried telling them once that God is in control of everything, and we shouldn't be worried about anything Washington does. They told me I was passive, just like our/their preacher. (They butt heads all the time.)
Back to me. God willing, I will make it out of this. Thank you all.
Edit: Just to clarify, I have no regrets about not doing wrong things. I WANT to do the right thing. I want to please God. But I want to KNOW that God, as He's written in the bible, is real.
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Lupac after reading your last post I can see why your confused and troubled ???. As your learning the True Word of God with Rays teachings your also still in the Babylonian system. That's enough to make ones head explode. I'll just add one thing and say no more on this subject. As sure as God created The heavens and earth as He created His only begotten Son Jesus Christ The Saviour of the world and all the angles in the heavens, He surely did create Satan the god of this world. I am not good at quoting scripture but I know there are scriptures saying it is so. Maby somebody here can show us where they're at. 2 cor 4:4 check it out.
Darren
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Bryant, I am believing that God is watching over you..I am believing with you and for you, I am going to keep praying for you I can't do anthing,but God..and I know He's real..can. He can prove Himself to you. Not by performing great big miracles, but through the still, small voice, He can calm your fears and quiet your anxieties..when you are really ready He will do it..
Kathy :)
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Hi Lupac,
There is no such thing as The Bible; there are literally hundreds of Bible translations. I use over 40 different translations everyday, then still need The Spirit Of Truth to understand.
Bibles contain man's translations of The Scripture, each version with it own areas of editing, most times innocent mistakes, but sometimes deliberate attempts to deceive.
I pulled some Scripture out for you to take a careful look and read of, First bit of Information about fear.
2Ti 1:7 (Rotherham)
For God hath not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of power, and love, and correction.
2Ti 1:7 (CLV)
for God gives us, not a spirit of timidity, but of power and of love and of sanity."
2Ti 1:7-10 (CEV) Contemporary English Version
7 God's Spirit doesn't make cowards out of us. The Spirit gives us power, love, and self-control.
8 Don't be ashamed to speak for our Lord. And don't be ashamed of me, just because I am in jail for serving him. Use the power that comes from God and join with me in suffering for telling the good news.
9 God saved us and chose us to be his holy people. We did nothing to deserve this, but God planned it because he is so kind. Even before time began God planned for Christ Jesus to show kindness to us.
10 Now Christ Jesus has come to show us the kindness of God. Christ our Savior defeated death and brought us the good news. It shines like a light and offers life that never ends.
2Co 11: 13-15 (MKJV)
13 For such ones are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 Did not even Satan marvelously transform himself into an angel of light?
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves as ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works.
Verse 2 to 5 below is all one sentence, pay attention to what it says.
2Ti 3:1-9 (DRB)1899 Douay Rheims Bible
1 Know also this, that in the last days shall come dangerous times.
2 Men shall be lovers of themselves, covetous, haughty, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, wicked,
3 Without affection, without peace, slanderers, incontinent, unmerciful, without kindness,
4 Traitors, stubborn, puffed up, and lovers of pleasure more than of God:
5 Having an appearance indeed of godliness but denying the power thereof. Now these avoid.
6 For of these sort are they who creep into houses and lead captive silly women laden with sins, who are led away with divers desires:
7 Ever learning, and never attaining to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Mambres resisted Moses, so these also resist the truth, men corrupted in mind, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no farther: for their folly shall be manifest to all men, as theirs also was.
Again read carefully All the words below several times.
2Ti 3:16-17 (DRB)
All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.
This was supposed to be short, sorry it is a bit longer than first intended.
george :).
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Thank you all, I'll read your replies in the morning. I'm going to bed now. darren, it would take WAY to long, and would be teaching something Ray is not for, which is against the rules, why I believe what I do about the devil. Let's just leave it at that, okay? (All those scriptures are true, I believe. But I don't believe they're pointing to a literal entity called "Satan". They aren't to be taken literally.) Thanks again.
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You have already been given some heartfelt food for thought in this thread Lupac.
You are a very special young man. God has not put you into your circumstances for nothing. You are not the son of parents to whom God has not yet given the understanding of His truth to no plan or purpose. On the contrary.
It has to be very painful for you to feel so isolated. If I can just re-call for you that Elijah felt the same way and God assured him that he was not alone.
We are scattered. Your brethren are scattered. If I could put literal arms around you and help you to feel the warmth that you are loved, I would. So I put my spiritual arms around you through words of this post. God does the same, through the Word of His Son.
after the fire was a still, small voice.
1Ki 19:13 And it happened when Elijah heard, he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out, and stood at the cave entrance. And behold, a voice came to him and said, What are you doing here, Elijah?
1Ki 19:14 And he said, I have been very zealous for Jehovah, the God of Hosts, because the sons of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, have thrown down Your altars, and have slain Your prophets with the sword. And I, I alone, am left. And they seek to take my life away.
2Co 5:2 For indeed in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our dwelling-place out of Heaven;
2Co 5:4 For we who are in this tabernacle groan, being burdened; inasmuch as we do not wish to be unclothed, but to be clothed, so that the mortal might be swallowed up by the life.
Rom 8:23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body.
Arc
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Okay, I've been thinking about what you guys have posted. I'm doing better, I just have to keep going. Here's a question, did Ray ever explain this verse? 1 Cor. 10:11
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
The word for world there is "aions" ages. What does that mean? The way I've had it explained, is that Paul here was alluding to the Jewish apocryphal books, and he was saying there are no more ages for those in Christ. This, doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Thanks.
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Hi Lupac,
Here is an excerpt from the article 'Twelve Truths to Understanding His Word.'
http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm ------
TRUTH NUMBER 8
[A] "Now ALL these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for OUR ADMONITION [to reprove, caution, warn, remind of obligation or duty, etc.], upon whom the ends of the world [‘eons—ages’] are come" (I Cor. 10:11).
[B ] "Now these things were OUR EXAMPLES, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted" (I Cor. 10:6).
[C] "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for OUR LEARNING…" (Rom. 15:4).
It is essential that we study the Old Testament Scriptures, for they are often the only key to the New Testament Scriptures. Paul used the Hebrew Scriptures to teach the foolish Galatians the New Covenant promises. Here’s but one great example:
"Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, do you not HEAR the law? For it is written [in Old Covenant Scriptures] that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the FLESH; but he of the freewoman was by PROMISE. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which genders [gives birth] to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar IS mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
"But the Jerusalem which is above is free, which IS the mother of us all.
For it is written, ‘Rejoice, you barren that bear not; break forth and cry, you that travail not: for the desolate has many more children than she which has an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
"Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman SHALL NOT be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not the children of the bondwoman, but of the free." (Gal. 4:21-31).
This is not only an allegory, but it is an allegory containing many metaphors as well. An allegory is when characters or events (such as Sarah and Agar and their children) represent abstract or spiritual ideas or principles. A metaphor is when one thing is said to be something else. (such as Agar actually being mount Sinai, which then represents or corresponds to Jerusalem in bondage). It may seem a little complicated at first, but once one sees all of the aspects of the allegory explained, this principle is quite easy to understand. Nevertheless, it does require the Spirit of God to believe it. It is this very fact (that the Church does not understand or believe this allegory) that the Church continues to believe that God’s true chosen people are STILL, "the children of the bondwoman"—"Jerusalem which NOW IS" over there in the State of Israel. Unbelievable.
This dear reader, is how the Old Covenant was written for "OUR admonition…"
Does anyone believe that this is the ONLY "allegory" in the Old Testament which is written for OUR admonition. Hardly—the Old Testament is FILLED with such allegories, but who has "ears to hear and eyes to see?" And "who will believe our report?" The whole book of Revelation is explained in the Old Testament Scriptures, but the theologians of this world do not and cannot discern it. They all teach that Revelation is a book of end-time, end-of-the-world eschatology. They have not a clue.
Paul constantly referred to the Old Testament Scriptures in his epistles, and he taught the whole plan of salvation from the Old Testament Scriptures, as they were the only Scriptures available during his ministry.
"And that from a child you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus" (II Tim. 3:15).
These same Scriptures were now able to make Timothy wise unto salvation, but not until he first learned about Jesus Christ in the Old Testament Scriptures. These were the Scriptures that Jesus caused His apostles to understand after His resurrection:
What Jesus taught from the Old Testament Scriptures during His ministry was not even the tip of the iceberg.
The Truth of God, "thou shall surely die," and the lie of the Devil, "you shall NOT surely die," is for "our admonition." The story of Cain and Able is for "our admonition." The story of the flood is for "our admonition." The story of Babel is for "our admonition." The promises to Abraham and the meaning of faith are for "our admonition." The entire story in every single detail of Joseph and his brothers is for "our admonition." Do you wear your "coat of many colors," or do you hide it in the closet? You say: "What coat of many colors?"
Forget it—ask you pastor why he has never taught you how to wear your coat of many colors?
If you cannot identify yourself, personally, with all the stories and accounts in the Old Testament, then you have not even begun to overcome all the carnality that you are.
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Have you not read:
"Unto whom it was revealed, that NOT unto themselves, but unto US [‘Now ALL these things happened unto them for examples, and they are written for OUR admonition, upon whom the ends of the eons are come’ I Cor. 10:11] they did minister the things, which are now reported unto YOU by them that have preached the gospel unto YOU with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Wherefore gird up the loins of YOUR mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the GRACE that is to be brought unto YOU [not ‘them’—they DIED not receiving the promises made to them] at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:12-13).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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The way I've had it explained
We have all to shed the way it was explained to us as well! :) ;D
We all have to get rid of every stupid, blind, heretical blasphemous explaination we ever assimilated knowingly or unknowingly. Everything we have been taught in Babylon is not true, not real, not reflecting the One True God that we are drawn by His Spirit to know through the Truth that we are blessed and privilaged to be recieving through Ray Smith.
Arc
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Lupac,
My brother you are not the first, wont be the last and surely are not alone. Peace to you in the name of Jesus Christ.
Rom 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
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Maybe you guys can help me. I'm at the point now where I don't know what to believe. I've talked to Roy and Kat about this, but I figured maybe someone else could help me. I'm starting to think the the bible, isn't anymore true than any other religion's book. I want to believe the scriptures. I want to stop worrying about this and that. And despite my best efforts, I'm still afraid that no matter what I do, if I don't follow what I used to believe, God is going to be angry at me and put me in hell. For a long time, I looked for every way to validate what I believed, because if I thought anything wasn't true, I was going to hell. I tried so hard to believe, because if I didn't, it was hopeless for me. I want to believe this (Truth, what the scriptures teach.), I'm GOING to believe this. Can anyone help me? Thank you.
Hello Lupac,
What you are going through right now is the crushing of your former religion. You're not the first to go through it, and you won't be the last either. Just hang in there buddy... Put everything you know [or think you know] aside and just focus on this ONE TRUTH:
GOD IS YOUR LOVING FATHER; AND HE IS IN COMPLETE CONTROL OF EVERYTHING.
Period.
The rest is will fall into place in time.
Christopher. 8)
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Do a Brain Dump, Please, DO NOT MIX OLD WINE (Teaching, Knowledge) WITH NEW (Teaching, knowledge).
These are words to live by every minute of every day, Jesus Christ Said Them, and Remember The Words Are Spirit, not carnal.
Mat 9:17 (CEV)
No one pours new wine into old wineskins. The wine would swell and burst the old skins. Then the wine would be lost, and the skins would be ruined. New wine must be put into new wineskins. Both the skins and the wine will then be safe.
Mar 2:21 (CLV)
21 No one is sewing a patch of unshrunk shred on an old cloak. Yet, if so, is not that which fills up taking away from it, the new from the old, and a worse rent is occurring?
22 And no one is draining fresh wine into old wine skins. Yet, if so, will not the fresh wine be bursting the wine skins? And the wine is spilling, and the wine skins will perish. But fresh wine is put into new wine skins."
Luk 5:37-39 (CEV)
37 No one pours new wine into old wineskins. The new wine would swell and burst the old skins. Then the wine would be lost, and the skins would be ruined.
38 New wine must be put only into new wineskins.
39 No one wants new wine after drinking old wine. They say, "The old wine is better."
george :).
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Lupac, Have you considered the free will thing? Its very obvious that you want to believe in God, and trust in Him, but you haven't been able to. You fear Satan , but you don't want to. Do you think your choice to play music was of your own free will? Do you think you can of your own free will choose not to play any more? Trust me, you can't quit playing music of your own free will, and you can't want to want to believe in God of your own.
The truth of not having free will is blasting you in the face like an explosion. Its a truth you can cling to. Its a step in the right direction. The evidence is overwhelming. Can you see it now?
Ask my wife about free will. She can't make her thoughts go away no matter how hard she tries. The more she fights it the worse it gets.
Consider this one truthful tool, and dwell in just that for a few days. Wow! you have one truth you can rely on.
The reason you want so much to believe in God is because He is drawing you to Him. Your just having to travel some rough ground to get to Him just as I had to. Its not of your own to want to believe in Him and not fear a destiny of what Satan might do to you.
Your grabbing at too many things right now when you need to focus on one thing at a time. Not having free will is a major truth that becomes a wonderful tool that will dig you out of this mess you think your in. When you are in a pit there is only one way out and that is up. I've been in that pit, and God is the one that put me there to bring me out of it one step, one tool at a time. This is a process of trusting and relying on God as you will begin to see that it is Him providing the tools to lift you from the pit of unbelief and fear and all that stuff that you have that you want to get rid of that you are trying to do of your own. NO FREE WILL is your tool. Use it. To me this is the key to taking a giant step forward. Its also the greatest snare that keeps one from seeing any truth.
Its like the parables of not understanding one; means you don't understand any of them.
You will never understand or except any scriptures until you get past the free will myth.
Peace little brother
Roy
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Thank you. It might be easier to for me to accept what you're saying, if I hadn't had the evil version of "predestination" drilled into my head. Here's exactly what I was taught, so you'll know where I'm coming from.
I was taught that there is no way you can come to god without Him "calling" you. If you are called, you are one of the "elect" and god will continue drawing you through "sanctification" until you are very holy, then you'll die and go to heaven. Everyone who is not called, or one of the elect has no choice. They will live and die godless, and then finally go to hell. There is nothing anyone on Earth could do if God has not chosen them. It had been decided from the beginning that you would go to heaven, and they would go to hell. god is just. If he decided to put everyone in hell, right now, and never let them out, we would deserve it, and it would be "fair and just".
And, that's what I used to believe. You see what evil teaching I came from. This is what's been so hard for me to let go. I want to really badly, but I have such deep seated fear of God. Remember the scene in Indianan Jones, when the Nazis who opened the ark had their faces melted off? That was kind of taught to me, what would similarly happen if we looked at god, because he's so holy and we're not. (It was ALWAYS stressed to me how HOLY God is.)
So it's very hard for me to use "no free will" as a tool to fight these things. Having free will used to be the way I could cope with these teachings, as I couldn't believe that god would be so... dare I say evil?
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No, not evil. God uses evil for a greater good, I believe Ray has mentioned this many times. Okay I'm young and inexperienced, but in everything I do, everything I see, I realize that when something bad happens, it always, always!... Turn out to be a blessing later on. Too many examples to cite for me, but you must have them too. Maybe He's harsh at times (read: Yes He's very harsh), but I wouldn't say "evil".
As for everything else... I went through a similar phase not too long ago, and all I can say is, read the LoF again. The entire damned thing. Throw away everything you've learned in babylon and read again. Ray addressed all of it.
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If you noticed, I said those teachings were evil. God is NOT evil, the teachings in the church about Him are. I will read it again. Thank you.
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Hi Lupac,
The beliefs you hold came from a trusted source (your parents) and now are 'real' to you, whether they were really true or not, now you believe in them. To stop these false beliefs that have been controlling your life you must continue to challenge them and by challenging them you will weaken them. Yes it's hard to unlearn the beliefs you have held for so many years, but you know that these false beliefs that you hold are what your parents repetitively fed into your mind when you were young. That is how you gained these beliefs, it's called brainwashing. You can see the reality of this because most often the child of a Hindu will remain a Hindu, the child of a Muslim remains a Muslim, as well as the child of a Christian remains a Christian. There may be exceptions, but this is generally true.
Your parents and friends have influenced you and transferred their false beliefs to you and the results is that you developed these deep seated fears. I think that in order for you to embrace the truth you must first get rid of your fears and anxieties about God, that is what's interfering with you accepting who and what He really is, "God is love" (1John 4:08). You must break this chain of learned fears by continually challenging them, until you have overcome them.
There is one source of the Truth and that is God. We have a very precious source of God's revelation to man preserved down through the centuries, the Holy Scriptures, but we need the original manuscripts set forth by the Apostles. This BT site is a source for us to have the false interpretations from Bible mistranslations removed, so if our eyes are opened we can have this wonderful Word of God to guide us into this one Truth.
John 8:31-32 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Great post Kat. I so agree with what you've said--very good advice for all of us.
Vangie
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Thanks Kat, I'm working on throwing out all the junk I've learned. I guess God's love was never really taught to me, at least, not nearly as much as His wrath, justice, and anger. The only real act of love I was taught about God was Him giving His Son to die. But even then, that was to fix a problem Satan caused, but He knew about, and it only was for his "elect".
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You will come to experientially know these truths in time and will assimilate themselves into you so they become a part of you. The time is coming that you will no longer question them. Ray has said it many times that if something really indeed is true then all your honest study will prove that it is true. The same with the false beliefs you were taught. As you study them and find out where they came from and why people believe them then as time go's on you will come to know more and more than they indeed are false. Obviously this is only true if God is indeed working on you to know the truth and I certainly believe that he is. Otherwise you wouldn't be here and you wouldn't care one way or another. In a way I envy you because I didn't come to know these truths until three or four years ago and this summer I will be 48 years old. To know these things and really know them before your even 20 years old is a tremendous advantage for you during the rest of your life.
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Lupac, the fact that you can't get rid of the things you have been exposed to, and can't believe in what you want to is absolute proof that you are in control of nothing, not one little thought. God is in control, and you have no free will. I can't emphasize this enough that this is a solid truth you can cling to. Its the one that can't be denied. Just look at yourself and determine if you can choose what you want of your own. Its impossible for anyone to do this, but with God all things are possible.
You are trying to do things of your own. What your going through is God dragging you to Him, but you fight it by hanging on to the un-truth which is just one of those things that God puts us through in Him dragging us. Not everyone goes through it this way. God has placed you on a roller coaster, and He will take you off when He is ready, but first you will learn that you have no free will and that He is in control, not you, and not Satan. You will know this one way or the other.
Roy
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Bryant..we are all going to be so happy when you finally are able to let God do everything in you...You are going to get it one day! I have prayed for you a lot and I know that you are God's! He is going to reach into your mind and plant a joy in you that you will recognize as a gift from Him!! I want God to continue planting peace into MY mind, as well! God is a Father in love with His children..of which YOU are one!! Don't ever give up hope, because God is real, He is your Father and HE will never let you go!! You're making it, buddy! Soon God will give you His peace!! :D
Kathy ;)
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Thanks, I'm doing better. I read this guy from Tektonics a couple of months ago, that had me a little worried. So I went back to their page. Man, this guy is so wrong. He see hell as "eternal shame", which I can only guess would be people kicked out of heaven, being "shamed". According to him, there's no "eternal torture", only being separate from heaven. (BUt not from God, as he admits God will be "all in all".) Anyway, his whole argument is based on free will. I don't think any serious "christian" can argue with Ray apart from "free will", which Ray has completely destroyed with Scripture. Now, the reason I wrote all of this, is that things that man said, I would be afraid to be in his shoes. His answer to 1 Tim. 2:4 is that God "desires" lots of things, but it doesn't mean it will happen. :o He said "Would anyone argue that God desires everyone to be perfect?"
I would say, no, God doesn't at this time. Otherwise it would be. (But it will be in the future, because He is making us in His image.) Anyway, this thing he said really is blasphemous:
God can, by definition, cause things to turn out any way he wishes; again by definition, he can never be forced to choose a course of action with substandard results.
Can an omnipotent being, by definition, cause things to turn out any way it wishes? Actually, no. An omnipotent being cannot alter a free will choice to obtain a desired result (this results in both A and not-A being true at the same time and in the same sense, which is a contradiction). Can an omnipotent being be forced to choose a course of action with substandard results? No, and what of it? It is incumbent on Skeptics to establish that our omnipotent being (God) chose a course of action which obtained comparatively substandard results.
He's basically saying God is powerless to alter any of our "free-will" choices, even if God does not want them to be.
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Lupac, the fact that you can't get rid of the things you have been exposed to, and can't believe in what you want to is absolute proof that you are in control of nothing, not one little thought. God is in control, and you have no free will. I can't emphasize this enough that this is a solid truth you can cling to. Its the one that can't be denied. Just look at yourself and determine if you can choose what you want of your own. Its impossible for anyone to do this, but with God all things are possible.
You are trying to do things of your own. What your going through is God dragging you to Him, but you fight it by hanging on to the un-truth which is just one of those things that God puts us through in Him dragging us. Not everyone goes through it this way. God has placed you on a roller coaster, and He will take you off when He is ready, but first you will learn that you have no free will and that He is in control, not you, and not Satan. You will know this one way or the other.
Roy
I understand that, what I worry about is, what if God does want me, or someone else, to go to "hell"? Have you ever been on the site CARM? That's what I used to believe, that's what I keep falling back into worrying about. Right now, I'm worried about it...
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Lupac, I see your pain in your writings. My heart goes out to you. I am just an old mountain woman and I will pray for you and love you in my heart asking all the while for God's comfort to be on you. It hurts my heart for my own child to be in pain over anything but there are times I can't fix it. I wish I knew the words to say that would bring you peace but I don't. What I can tell you is that you are loved and cared for by many that have never even met you face to face. I hope and pray for you to find happiness and peace. I do believe those are some of God's greatest gifts to us. When I start wondering about things I go off in the woods in these old mountains. We have huge boulders that are no telling how old and couldn't be made by the hand of man. I watch the creek water tumble over those old rocks and I feel peace in my spirit. If God cares enough for those old rocks to be on this earth.... how much more does He care for us? I am comforted by that. I hope this day brings you peace, jennie
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Hi Lupac,
What if ???
What if, the present economic recession plunged into a deep depression? How could we survive if we lost all of our conveniences?
What If, another ice age got started and it was going to freeze the whole earth? How would we be able to survive something like that?
Well what if, a huge asteroid hits the earth? How would we survive that?
What if, there was a pandemic and a terrible disease spread around the world and there was no treatment for it? Would anybody survive?
What if, there really are evil aliens and they take over the earth? Could anybody survive that?
I mean we could come up with plenty of 'what if' scenarios and find plenty to worry and fret about. Now let's say none of these 'what ifs' happen, then we have put ourselves through a lot of anguish for no good reason. We have to find a way to separate what we need to apply our time and effort towards and what is not worth wasting our time with. I personally rely on the Word of God, not the translations and their errors of interpretation, you have to get to the original words spoken by the Apostles. I am convinced that we have that here at BT.
Now what will it take to convince you? Clearly it will be God and He will do that in you at some point and you give up this fantasy of a literal hell. Then you will know God has done a great work in you. I hope that will be some day soon.
Mat 6:27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
Mat 6:32 ...For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
v. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.
v. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.
Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy--meditate on these things.
v. 9 The things which you learned and received and heard and saw in me, these do, and the God of peace will be with you.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I understand that, what I worry about is, what if God does want me, or someone else, to go to "hell"? Have you ever been on the site CARM? That's what I used to believe, that's what I keep falling back into worrying about. Right now, I'm worried about it...
Before I came to BT, I used to study the teachings at CARM. And as Ray has noted, whenever someone attempts to explain an unscriptural doctrine, they have to rely on unscriptural words. That pretty much sums up everything about the CARM ministry.
Lupac, from all your many comments in this and other threads, it seems you want be on both sides of the fence. What I mean by that is, you want to trust in the scriptures presented about our Loving God who will save all His children. But you also want to give credence to the doctrine of eternal hell, 'just in case'.
James 1:5-8 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
I, for one, sincerely believe you are seeking wisdom of the Lord. But as we keep reading the words of James, our requests must be done 'in faith', not wavering. For one who wavers will not receive 'anything' of the Lord. This is similar to our Lord's words that we be either 'hot or cold' and not lukewarm [Rev 3:15-16].
So what it comes down to is: you have to decide. You have to live your life...no one, neither here from the forum or anywhere else, can live it for you. You can continue to waver and question and the members can continue to give you scripture after scripture...but you still have to decide.
Can you really live a life where you look to everyone else to make your decisions? Every single day? Not even you could keep that up, I believe. The rubber meets the road in everyone's life Lupac and the points comes when you have to 'let go' and trust in God. That's the only way you'll have peace of mind.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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You're right, I have to let go... I can't live in fear my whole life. I am going to read Ray's study on love, several times. I don't want to waver anymore, and I won't.
Kat, you're right too. That's thing with me, you know the thing I always feared more than going to "hell"? Not know whether I would or not. Uncertainty. That's a problem with me, that I need to work on. I don't know what it will take, I'll get there though.
Jennie, I do feel alone. I know you all care about me, I care about you too. Thank you.
I was going through some verse in the Bible about God's love. (Because, any way you look at it, that's where I'm stuck, believing that God doesn't love everybody.) I came across this verse, Ephesians 5:25:
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Now that's a verse I've heard used to say that God doesn't love everybody, only the church. But that's not what it says, it doesn't say Christ gave Himself up for the church "ONLY", 1 John 2:2 says this:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
So Christ died FOR the "whole world". Believe it or not, I've even had it told to me that "whole world" doesn't necessarily mean the whole world. >:( How much more twisting can you do to a verse? John is indeed speaking to other Christians, that's why he says "not only ours". Am I going the right way with this?
Thank you all, with God's help, I'm going to pull myself out of this hole.
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I was going through some verse in the Bible about God's love. (Because, any way you look at it, that's where I'm stuck, believing that God doesn't love everybody.) I came across this verse, Ephesians 5:25:
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Now that's a verse I've heard used to say that God doesn't love everybody, only the church. But that's not what it says, it doesn't say Christ gave Himself up for the church "ONLY", 1 John 2:2 says this:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
So Christ died FOR the "whole world". Believe it or not, I've even had it told to me that "whole world" doesn't necessarily mean the whole world. >:( How much more twisting can you do to a verse? John is indeed speaking to other Christians, that's why he says "not only ours". Am I going the right way with this?
Thank you all, I'm going to pull myself out of this hole.
Absolutely, you are going the right way, with that line of thinking and understanding.
And it is God working in you, both to will and to do, to pull yourself out of this hole.
Take care Lupac,
Marques
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Praying for you all the way, little brother!! :D
Kathy ;)
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Okay, I'm confused now. I'm reading the LoF series again. Here's what it said:
"Now at their eating, Jesus, taking the bread, and, blessing, breaks it, and, giving to the disciples, said, ‘Take eat [this bread], This [bread] IS my body" (Matt. 26:26).
The greatest minds in theology have haggled for hundreds of years over this metaphor that Christ used at the last supper. Does the bread literally turn into the body flesh of Christ when we eat that bread as the Catholic faith demands? What a silly question. IT’S A METAPHOR! And the idea that one of the two parts of a metaphor must be literal is likewise silly.
In this metaphor, the bread is a symbol. Is there anyone who cannot recognize that Christ used bread from the table as a "symbol" of something? Then when used as a symbol, neither can it be any longer literal. Is there anyone who cannot recognize that Christ used His own body as a "symbol" of something? Then when used as a symbol it neither can be any longer literal. That being said then, the bread is symbolic AND Christ’s body is also symbolic! Jesus used literal "bread" from the table and used the literal words "my body." When Jesus picked up the bread and broke it, no one thought that He was talking about CHEESE! When Jesus said, "my body," no one thought He was speaking of His clothing or His shoes. Everyone at that table knew what "bread" was and what Christ’s "body" was. However ... HOWEVER, Christ used the words "bread" and "my body" in a METAPHOR! He said, "Take eat, this [bread] IS My body." That my friends is a METAPHOR! And as a metaphor, neither the bread nor Christ’s body is to be taken literally! "I am the BREAD OF LIFE..." (John 6:35).
We do NOT eat physical bread to partake of the symbolic or spiritual life-giving food of Christ’s body. Nor would we be partaking of spiritual or symbolic bread by eating Christ’s literal flesh and blood body. Can we not see that neither part of a metaphor must always be literal. The bread is used as a symbol because literal bread is called the staff of life. Christ’s body is used in this metaphor because our spiritual nourishment comes from no other source but Jesus Christ. They say that we are what we eat. When we partake of the real staff of life--the spiritual food of Christ’s body, we ourselves BECOME the very body of Christ ourselves!
I was raised and taught that the Lord's Supper is very important. We had it every Sunday. I guess what I'm saying is, all this time, I thought the literal bread symbolized Christ's literal (or spiritual) body. Maybe someone here could explain it better to me. I know what I've been taught isn't true, but I'm not sure what exactly Ray is saying here ether. Using the logic above, it would seem the "literal" LoF symbolizes the "literal" (or "spiritual") second death. Thanks.
EDIT:
One other thing, before I have to go to work. This part:
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is JESUS CHRIST. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE; Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE; and the FIRE shall TRY EVERY MAN’S WORK of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be BURNED, he shall SUFFER LOSS; but [pay close attention to this BIG BUT] BUT HE HIMSELF [the one who had his works burned and consumed in God’s consuming fire] SHALL BE SAVED [What will save him?], yet so AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:11-15)!!!
It seems, to me, to say there is no other foundation anyone can build on other than Jesus, which is true. But it seems that the wood, hay, and stubble are all built on Jesus by men. Wouldn't that imply that the people who lay the wood, hay, and stubble are try of themselves to lay their works on Jesus? What about people who aren't christians, who never knew of the foundation to began with? Or who tried to build their OWN foundation, or a foundation on Alla or Buddha? I'm just trying to get everything straight in my head.
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Ray is talking about Christ's statement. "‘Take, eat [this bread], This [bread] IS my body..."
In this statement, 'the bread' is symbolic--metaphor. Symbolic of what? Christ's body.
How would one 'literalize' this? By saying, "You don't have to eat the symbolic bread. Eat the literal body."?
Of course not.
Both 'the bread' and 'my Body' are symbolic. The bread 'represents' His body, and/but (in the statement) He isn't telling the disciples to eat his literal body.
As if that isn't enough, the commandment to 'take EAT', therefor, is also symbolic! He isn't talking about literally 'eating' anything either, ultimately.
The entire statement is symbol of symbol and metaphor of metaphor. Even if you grasp that much, it's also 'obeyed' Spiritually, not physically.
I hope that helps.
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Hi Lupac,
The 'Lord's supper' is merely a physical ritual that pictures a higher spiritual truth. Like Dave said it is a metaphor. Here are a few places where this is explained further.
http://bible-truths.com/lake5.html ----------
Now then, is there a simple way that we can at least represent all metaphors in an intelligent, understandable statement? I think so. I have come up with a statement that seems to represent ALL metaphors correctly and honestly. Here is how it works: Take ANY metaphor and apply this principle to it:
A. "The WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT." Or condensed: [My] Words ARE Spirit.
Next, add the words "like" and "in certain ways," and state the metaphor like this:
B. "The WORDS that I speak unto you, they are [like] SPIRIT [in certain ways].
There it is. Simple. Christ’s words are not literally spirit, but like spirit, but not in all ways, only in certain ways. And so far I have found this principle to work in all metaphors. Christ’s words are not like spirit in that they can be audibly heard by physical ears. They are not like spirit in that we have them on physical paper imprinted with physical ink, etc. But they are like spirit in that they have INVISIBLE POWER. Jesus Himself gives us an explanation of this very sort of thing,
"The wind blows where it will, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, and where it goes, SO IS every one that is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8).
Jesus could have used a metaphor here and said something like this: "Those born of the Spirit are wind." But He didn’t. He explained in what "certain ways" they are "like" the wind. And that, you see, is what a metaphor really is. Now let’s try this principle to other metaphors and see if it does not simplify them:
A. "Take, eat: this [bread] is my body" Or condensed: "Bread is Body"
B. "Take eat: this [bread] is [like] my body [in certain ways]"
As physical bread gives nourishment to the physical body, the Bread from heaven is spiritual nourishment to our spiritual life as if we were eating Christ’s spiritual body.
http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html -------------------------
Just as we physically feed on physical bread for PHYSICAL LIFE, thus also we spiritually feed on Jesus Christ’s spiritual body for SPIRITUAL LIFE.
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But it seems that the wood, hay, and stubble are all built on Jesus by men. Wouldn't that imply that the people who lay the wood, hay, and stubble are try of themselves to lay their works on Jesus?
As the "gold, silver, precious stones" represent righteous works, these are those things that have already been perfected by fire. Now the "wood, hay, straw" are those works that have not been perfected, it is the works of the flesh, like the grass that does not last.
1Pe 1:24 for "All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls,
So all people must have their works tested in fire, that is happening now for those chosen, it will be later in the LOF for the rest. Anybody's deeds that are not just, according to Christ's commandment to "love one another" (John 13:34) will get burned away in the LOF and "he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved," (verse 15). All (no exceptions, Hindus, Muslims and atheists) will be saved through Jesus Christ, He is the only way, the one truth that leads to life.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
When everyone is raised and Jesus Christ rules on this earth, everyone will see Him (Rev. 1:7) and everyone will come to know Him. He will be the foundation of all and He will teach them His righteous ways and they will learn righteousness.
Isa 26:9 ..For when Your judgments are in the earth,
The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thank you, Kat and Dave. It's hard to let go of physical rituals, for me. I used to think they were necessary. I'll keep studying. Kat, explaining the Corinthians verse really hit home. Thanks.
Hi Lupac,
I may be wrong (not the first time in my life). If I am wrong, then I apologize in advance. But. But!! Are you kidding me? Are you just pulling our chain here to get a reaction? Do you really not get it?
I'm just a 56 year old man, over the hill, and hoping not to be buried under it (I least just not yet). When I left the Worldwide Church of God about fifteen years ago, I had had my fill of religion. I told God that never again would I listen to any human talk or teach about God. I told Him that if He wanted me to be religious, then He would have to make Jesus appear directly to me and teach me the truths of God. I was in a spiritual wilderness for the last fifteen years, a stranger and sojourner on the earth.
Then, last October, I ran across this website. Wow! Double Wow!! Reading and listening to Ray was like putting my finger into a light socket. The Spirit of God runs strong in Ray. And this Spirit leaps across the words into ones soul.
This website is not Sunday school kindergarten class, but is like spiritual Marine Corps boot camp. Don't you feel it deep within you? Are you kidding me?
Lupac, if you are sincere, then I do apologize deeply. Stick with it, and God will show you all his ways in due time. But, if you're just kidding around, be careful.
John
Why would I be joking about something as serious as this? I'm trying to break down a mental barrier I have about God. Growing up, I felt nothing of God, except fear and self- unworthiness. At this moment, I feel nothing but fear that these wonderful truths of God aren't true. But God is helping me overcome this. Thank you for your concern. 8)
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Hey Lupac,
I experienced a lot of what you're experiencing right now. I was so afraid that James was referring to me when he spoke of a double-minded man being unstable in all his ways. I really wanted to know God, but what I didn't realize was He really wanted ME to know Him first. You know the part in the movie "Matrix" were Neo finally finds Morpheus, but Morpheus tells him he'd been looking for him his whole life? It's kinda synonymous with God and his chosen. The only reason I was never satisfied with the "idea" of God was because He wanted to reveal himself to me in truth and spirit and nothing less would ever suffice. Sure I fellowshipped with the scribes and pharisees of today and felt I was doing everything I was supposed to do, but that was the problem, I WAS DOING IT.
One of the main "bumps in the road" christians will never in this life get over is the myth that they must choose God back after He chooses them. Did any of the disciples choose God back? No. They all forsook him including Peter who totally DENIED Jesus; Have you denied Jesus to the point you cursed to affirm disassociation with Christ? I doubt it. I mean how scary is THAT to deny the man who gave you the power to walk on water!! Only after the power of God was given to them did they truly rep Jesus.
Lupac, you are no different than Peter, Paul, John, me and all of the other brothers and sisters God has chosen. He's going to make sure you understand that it's not according to your intelligence, your wisdom, and your strength, but only His power. If you go back and look at some of my earlier posts I was stumped. I couldn't understand how I was supposed to be the righteous individual, but still smoked mary jane EVERYDAY. It was tormenting for me up until the point where I was literally about to commit suicide. I didn't want to be around anyone. But in due time God gave me a glimpse of His will and purpose for my life and encouraged me to just believe He loves me and that He will make sure I don't end up a failure.
Stop worrying about what you don't understand, but ya know what I'm not going to even finish that statement because one day you'll look back and see why God allowed you to have the mindset you have now. Just know that God gotcha right where He wants you.
Be Encouraged Bro,
Charles
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Lupac,
I feel your pain. As most of us here can testify, we have gone through similar experiences as Father has drawn us to Him. When Father dealt with me for two years('95 & '96) I felt like I'd been pulled through a knot hole. The object of His dealings was to bring me to the end of myself. When He got me to the point of despairing of life itself, that is I no longer had the desire to live because I saw my absolute inability to live my life. At this point, Father showed me His awesome love that He had for me. When He revealed His love to me at the time of bringing me to see myself as a worthless, useless piece of junk---IT BROKE ME!!! The realization of His awesome love drove me to my knees in total surrender to His leading of my life. The heavens opened to give me "the peace that surpasses all understanding". From that moment till this very instant Holy Spirit has given me a continual feast of "Manna from Heaven". Whereas, before I was blind--NOW I SEE!! Glory to God for He alone can open blind eyes to see and melt hearts of stone to worship and praise Him!! What I went through was my "hell" experience. The same "hell" that everyone must experience. So, hang in there and be assured that Father will,in His own time for you, bring you into His Family. Grace be with you. Earl