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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Roy Martin on February 06, 2010, 02:17:44 PM
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We are told to love our enemies. Who is our enemy?
Roy
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We are told to love our enemies. Who is our enemy?
Roy
Enemy - One who feels hatred toward, intends injury to, or opposes the interests of another; a foe (from Free Dictionary website)
Matt 5:43-44 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
We once were 'enemies':
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
When we did not believe God and were by nature children of wrath:
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God...
Eph 2:3 ...we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others
In short, an enemy is one who opposes God and His Love, Character, and Will.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Boy, isn't that true? It's not so much my physical family as it is the so-called family of faith of Christendom out there. I get more far more resistance to the message of universal reconcilliation from the Christians than I ever do from the people of the world.
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These are our enemies.
Total KJV Occurrences: 32
enemies, 19
Mat_22:44 (2), Mar_12:36, Luk_1:71, Luk_1:74, Luk_6:27, Luk_6:35, Luk_19:27, Luk_20:43 (2), Rom_5:10, Rom_11:28, 1Co_15:25, Phi_3:18, Col_1:21, Heb_10:13 (2), Rev_11:5, Rev_11:12
enemy, 11
Mat_5:43, Mat_13:25, Mat_13:28, Mat_13:39, Luk_10:19, Act_13:10, Rom_12:20, 1Co_15:26, Gal_4:16, 2Th_3:15, Jam_4:4
foes, 2
Mat_10:36, Act_2:35
Arc
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Isn't that true Arion! you'd think Christians would want everyon to know that Jesus is theSavior off all..yet NO! You'd think it was total blasphemy! I guess that's God, too!
Kathy :)
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Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Boy, isn't that true? It's not so much my physical family as it is the so-called family of faith of Christendom out there. I get more far more resistance to the message of universal reconcilliation from the Christians than I ever do from the people of the world.
Arion, Ninny,
Comes with the territory, when you attack a strong mans house, you may get beaten up. (Synagogue of Satan).
Mat 12:29 (MKJV)
Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house and spoil his goods, unless first he binds the strong one, and then he will plunder his house.
2Th 2:8(MKJV)
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming,
2Th 2:9 whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved.
Rev 2:9 I know your works and tribulation and poverty (but you are rich), and I know the blasphemy of those saying themselves to be Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I give out of those of the synagogue of Satan, those saying themselves to be Jews and are not, but lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
george :).
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It is tempting to look outside ourselves to identify our enemies when in fact we are our own worst enemy :)
The number of the wild beast is not the number of "a" man, but rather the number of "man" or "mankind." LOF13
JUST WHAT IS CARNALITY
What then is it to be carnal or carnally minded? It’s not good, I can tell you that. It’s a monster—IT’S A BEAST:
"for to be carnally minded is DEATH…"
And just why is that?
"Because the carnal mind is enmity [DEEP-SEATED HATRED] against God: for it is NOT SUBJECT to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed CAN BE [Gk: ‘is ABLE’]. So then they that are in the flesh [carnal-minded] CANNOT please God" (Rom. 8:6-8).
• Have YOU ever seen yourself as the man of sin?
• Do you believe that YOU were once the son of perdition?
• Have YOU ever been carnally-minded in your walk with God?
• Have YOU ever left your first love?
• Have YOU ever put your hand to the plough and looked back?
• Has the spiritual house YOU built upon the sand fallen yet?
• Have you fallen from grace since first believing?
No? You say, "NO—NEVER"! Then the chances are great that "ye are YET carnal."
THE MAN OF SIN IDENTIFIED
Paul gives us three revealing factors concerning the man of sin (II Thes. 2:4):
1. "Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped;
2. so that he as God sits in the temple of God
3. showing himself that he is God"
These three traits of the man of sin are not reserved for some one superhuman that comes on the scene at the end of the age. Every man in every generation since John and Paul first penned their prophecies, have manifested these three traits of "the man of sin." Well why then haven’t more people seen this man of sin through the ages and reported on him? For one thing, only those who leave their first love, who are called and chosen, and have had their house build upon the sand come crashing down, are able to see the man of sin—the BEAST within. And the other reason is that the man of sin and beast within are invisible LOF14
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Hi Arc,
I agree, we ( the beast within) are our worst enemy. I also think I'm disappointed in myself more than in other people. I let myself down more...my expectations in myself are being raised constantly while I expect less and less from other people. I am humbled every day by the things I want to do and be and can't.
Silvia
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Well I know I can't love the enemy. I would be lying to say I do, or can choose to love them.
As far as I can tell, my enemy is the ones that want to kill me, and us with their words. They say they love us, yet call us a cult and condemn us to eternal torment.To love them and expose them at the same time is impossible for me to do.God will bring me into that in His time frame.
Roy
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Well I know I can't love the enemy. I would be lying to say I do, or can choose to love them.
As far as I can tell, my enemy is the ones that want to kill me, and us with their words. They say they love us, yet call us a cult and condemn us to eternal torment.To love them and expose them at the same time is impossible for me to do.God will bring me into that in His time frame.
Roy
Excerpt from Bible Study '07 - Love (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.msg27959.html#msg27959):
But Christ said, but I say unto you, love your enemies - agapao your enemies. Can you love your enemies and hate them at the same time? Well, you say no you can’t, that’s a contradiction. Well, let’s think about that for a second. Could God hate Esau and love him a the same time? Not only could He, the Bible tells us that, and it shows that He did. He shows more favor to Jacob then He did for Esau, and yet you can find some pretty strong promises and blessings (even though He said I hate Esau), you can find blessings on Esau in the Bible I can show you them, ok.
God said, I hate liars and people that cause discord and everything, yet I gave My own Son for the world. Why?, because I agapao them.
God thinks beyond their couple of three score and ten years of hate and criminality. I look beyond that, and I see their future - agapao. Maybe we need to learn to do that too. If we’re going to be like God, right.
Can you look beyond what they are doing, and at how filthy, corrupt and evil they are, and see a time when that evil can be burnt out of them. And they can be brothers in the kingdom of God. Can you do that through the spirit of God? I can, that’s agape love.
When I see them, putting a young girl, who has her whole life ahead of her, and she knows week after week, they are going to cut her head off, with a rusty butcher knife. Just living in stark terror, and you say, I have such a warm feeling in my heart for those terrorists. I don’t think so. And further more, God never tells us we have to phileo love them as a brother.
As someone you would want to hug, go out to lunch with, or do favors for, or kiss them on the cheek.
By the way, this was a revelation to me. Do you know several places in the New Testament, where it says kiss, it means kiss (a smacking sound, of a kiss). Well guess what that word is? It’s the same word phileo.
Phileo not only means affectionate love and adoration, and fondness for fellow brothers or sisters, it means kiss, ok. Because you kiss someone you’re fond of, that’s how close they are connected.
So God does not tell us, we have to phileo our enemies or that we have to phileo our next door neighbor.
Agapao is a more formal, it’s not a give and take, two-way street. It’s a one-way street, forgiving humanity for the evil that they have.
So we need to have this agape love for our neighbors. Maybe we don’t like them, maybe they’re not even good people, for our enemies, surely aren’t good people, or there would not be a reason for them to be your enemy.
For the whole world, we have to have this agapao love. But no where does God say we have to phileo them, or love them with affection, like a brotherly love, where we would hug them or give them a kiss.
Hello Roy,
It's not about loving how they are now, but love for their eternal well-being in the next age. Like you said, God will be the One to bring you to that point.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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Oh! I see now. To see them beyond.
Thats great Marques. Thanks for looking out.
Roy
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What also helps me is to realize that I am no better than they are!! I was once as darkened in heart and deceived as any of them...
Excerpt from 'repentence'
James 2:7 “Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?
v. 8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well;
v. 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
v. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all (or it can read liable to the punishment, the penalty).”
Now let’s just think about this a little bit. We always thought about this verse on a level about here. You know you break one, you’re guilty of them all. We thought like, 'well I guess if you committed adultery and God said you shouldn’t, so I guess you dishonor God and so you break the first commandment or something like that.' But does this verse mean what it says, if you break one, you’re guilty of all? Are you ahead of me yet? Do you know where I’m going with this? Some are figuring it out.
If you break one point of God’s royal Law, you are guilty of all. I said yesterday I want us to see why we really need to repent, and see just how serious it is in God’s sight. I know God will eventually take everybody to be where they need to go, but sometimes God accelerates things, by the foolishness of preaching. That’s what I am doing. Maybe you're going to see something here that you never conceived of before. That is if you break one point of His law... we’re not talking about the spiritual law here, you know how Christ made the law so much high that Moses law. One says don’t commit this sin, Christ said don’t even think it, okay. Much higher law. If you break one point, your GUILIY of all. Now back to Romans.
Rom. 2:1 “Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.”
How can Paul say that everybody in here is a child molester and a murderer. How can he say that? Because if you break one point of the law you’re guilty of all. Let me ask you, is it against the law of God to sexually molest and kill little children? It’s against the law isn’t it. If you offend and break this law, you are guilty of what? ALL! Which includes sexually molesting and killing little children or am I a heretic. Now I didn’t say that we did that, because I know I didn’t and I know you didn’t. It doesn’t say, if you break one point you ‘commit,’ breaking of all the law. It says you’re ‘guilty’ of all. You're guilty of all and here’s what we have to understand.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html
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The Scriptures below, are where we will have to be (In Spirit and Truth) (Not Isa 64:6) that is where we are when we think we can contribute any righteousness. Anyone that thinks they can do this with the carnal mind and heart, is still blind to the Truth of Scripture. Unless we enter into GOD'S SABBATH REST; and cease from our own works, we are yet still dead in our sins.
There is no place where Scripture Teaches that we (any human) can do any of this; not one little bit. When one can start to appreciate the depth of evil in ourselves (utter darkness) then we can start to be humbled; remember that is what this life we live is about
Isa 64:6 (GNB) Check this verse in (DRB, MKJV and LITV) to really get the meaning.
All of us have been sinful; even our best actions are filthy through and through. Because of our sins we are like leaves that wither and are blown away by the wind.
Mat 5:44-48 (MKJV)
44 But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you,
45 so that you may become sons of your Father in Heaven. For He makes His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax-collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet your brothers only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax-collectors do so?
48 Therefore be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.
Joh 3: 16-17 (CLV)
16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian."
17 For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him."
Joh 13:33-35 (CLV)
33 Little children, still a little time am I with you. You shall be seeking Me, and, according as I said to the Jews that 'Where I am going you can not be coming,' at present I am saying it to you also."
34 A new precept am I giving to you, that you be loving one another; according as I love you, that you also be loving one another."
35 By this all shall be knowing that you are My disciples, if you should be having love for one another."
1Th 3: 11-13 (CLV)
11 Now may our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus, be directing our way to you! "
12 Now may the Lord cause you to increase and superabound in love for one another and for all, even as we also for you,
13 to establish your hearts unblamable in holiness in front of our God and Father, in the presence of our Lord Jesus with all His saints."
george :).
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Everyone's comments have been very good.
Marque your comment slammed me with something that just recently happened through me.
I've posted it in testimony's. Another awesome scriptural application to life. Its easy to see Gods glory in all of this.
Roy
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We are told to love our enemy. Well, I have a new saying for myself, or perhaps its a goal for my heart.
I have no enemies. I don't want to see anyone as an enemy.
If someone enters my house to do bodily harm to me and my family, I won't consider him to be anything but dead, because I will shoot him, but that's a different situation than what I'm talking about.
I am my own enemy, no one else, just me.
To love the enemy, I can't consider him an enemy. I have to see him just as God does. All is of God, so therefore I can't see an enemy in the things of God except the carnality in my flesh. God created all things and saw that it was very good.
There is a purpose for us to love the enemy, but I think there is a higher purpose that I not see anyone as an enemy. To see anyone as my enemy prevents me from seeing beyond their flesh.
I want to see them as they will be, just as God sees them.
Peace
Roy
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I recently experienced someone plotting and conspiring to harm me. It backfired not because I did anything but because God arranged that their nasty little scheme, work to my favor, which it did. I don't gloat about it but am very relieved actually and I can see that they are not very pleased at all. They were trying to upset me to get me to leave my shop so they can take it over.
I think we do have enemies, those who envy us, those who are our detractors or simply those who hate us. How we respond to them is what is important and what your post made me consider Roy. We do have enemies but when we step aside and they are no longer able to push our buttons, then they have to deal with God directly who will not let us be ashamed.
In a way I think God sends us enemies to help us get over them. It is not easy. Enemies can test our faith in God and lower our pride in ourselves. Either way, I think the end result is as you identify Roy. when we do not see an enemy as a threat then we will be in the knowledge of God so well, that we do not see our enemies as having any power that is not already given them from God for the purpose of making us more into His image and likness, or showing our enemies to whom we belong and that is to God not to them and their intentions. 8)
Thanks for your thoughts on this subject.
Arc
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Thank you Ark. also for your en-lighting thoughts and words.
You said," In a way I think God sends us enemies to help us get over them. It is not easy. Enemies can test our faith in God and lower our pride in ourselves. Either way, I think the end result is as you identify Roy. when we do not see an enemy as a threat then we will be in the knowledge of God so well, that we do not see our enemies as having any power that is not already given them from God for the purpose of making us more into His image and likness, or showing our enemies to whom we belong and that is to God not to them and their intentions."
Very profound Ark. and true. This kind of knowledge comes from personal experience. Perhaps I need to rephrase my new saying to something else. This requires more meditation on my part.
It felt good though that I want to see beyond the flesh, and I think your words is how to do that which is, "Gods purpose of making us more into His image and likeness"
It feels better for me to say, (Gods purpose) rather than,( My enemy). Seeing beyond the enemy into Gods purpose.
Dwelling on the enemy rather than the purpose causes me to see that I become an enemy to myself, which humbles me, which leads me to the purpose that leads me farther to see that its my heart I need to look at, and not the enemy's heart.
Peace
Roy
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Timely thread Roy. I expressed similar sentiments in the testimonies section.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11296.0.html
This thread expounds further on the enemy that is US, and the beast that is US.
God enlighten you more
Ches
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Can I add this scripture also on identifying who or hat's behind our enemies?:
"For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places." Ephesians 6:12 New Living Translation
Also:
Stay alert! Watch out for your great enemy, the devil. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.
1 Peter 5: 8 New Living Translation
Perhaps we could deal with them by:
"We use God's mighty weapons, not worldly weapons, to knock down the strongholds of human reasoning and to destroy false arguments." 2 Corinthians 10:4.
One Love Always
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Roy, here are some Scriptures that support how we are to see our enemies in the Spirit of Christ.
Joh 19:10 So Pilate said to him, "Aren't you going to speak to me? You realize, don't you, that I have the authority to release you and the authority to crucify you?"
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered him, "You have no authority over me at all, except what was given to you from above.
Likewise, our enemies, detractors and those who mean us harm, even those who come to kill, steal or destroy, they have no authority over us except what is given to them from above.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Judgment, Correction, Forgiveness and Repentance comes only by the Spirit of God.
1Pe 2:23 who when He was reviled did not revile in return. When He suffered, He did not threaten, but gave Himself up to Him who judges righteously.
Jesus shows the way of trust and knowledge of God, that through His Spirit, we too shall have the wisdom to yield as an obedient child to the disciplines of God because we are the Children of God .
It is a worthy goal Roy, to see our enemies as Jesus shows us that I thankfully see the Spirit of God has shared through you with us to consider.
Arc.
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Everyone's replies are greatly appreciated of which has been a blessing.
I got more out of this topic spiritually than I expected. Very enlightening and inspirational to say the least.
Roy
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Nice post ! When, God first led me to read Ray's articles I was so shocked to find out that I was serving a false God. Then, I wanted to share it with all the lost. Then, I realized I could not teach anyone anything. I was just learning and continue to learn.
I love all the lost in the worldy church systemand the wicked as God does . He sees them as finished. When, I first came in here I had such compassion on the ones in the church system. But, it is Gods plan.
Right, before coming in here I had done something I had such rermorse about, that I felt such torment. I realized I was a hypocrite among other things. I have never been publicly embarrased , but I can tell you God always got me good. Have to say I found repenting about that easy, but then all I could think was I was going to Hell. Only, to find out I did not know anything right.
I do not like the things evil people do. But, it is Gods plan. Also, I remember how Ray talks about we could have been any of those people. Well, I have no doubt about that. I am not proud of anything I have ever done.
God saved my life that night. I wanted to die, but was afraid to. God gave me a miracle that night. He set me free of alot of things. God has given me many miracles through my life. One miracle after the other, but not forgiving someone who hurt me and doing worse then they did humbled me good.Israel looked at all the miracles he did but never saw them. So, they lost the promise.
I can see my self like those in the desert for 40 years. I have been there for a long time. I looked at myself so long that I could not see myself how God does. I tried to obey law (devil) who threw it up to me. I would go back and forth. Now, I just want to learn from this and move on to his Pure Grace .
I now longer have to be tortured by the war going on in me. Wanting to do the good I don't do. Gods Grace is sufficent for me. I have taken my eyes off of my sins. Looking only to Gods Grace. His blood covers all my sins and he is well able to show me when I am not doing something right. He does put himself in us. He keeps me in line. God has been slaying the dragons that come to me. In the begining after learning the truth all kinds of things hit me.
I did not understand what was happening. I kind of was going through what Lupac was going through. I even had the accuser tell me you are not forgiven.
You are going to Hell. Thanks to God he helped me to see the accuser. The accuser uses the old law to keep you looking at the monster you are.
Thats, why Jesus came to die for all who could not keep them. God is well able to save us. If, he needs to correct me he does it lovingly even though it may not seem like it till you see it.
I now look at my self like God does a finished product. I now look at the rest of the world as finished. The enemy comes in may ways. You never knew it while lost. He already had you. Now, he doesn't. I think this is good for everyone to know, because we can share with Lupac and others who do not quite believe God. When, he said finished on that cross it was done in his opinion. When, we see that we will love just like Ray has shown us in his love teachings.
I was afraid when I first came in here after believeing there was no Hell to share with you all the battle going on within me. But, God has helped me to see the enemy myself the acusser the devil . When, we except his Pure Grace with no room for doubt the accuser will flee. God was teaching me and it was not easy, but I am so glad all I want now is to look to him and not self , law or the accuser.
Anything, else is considered to God as unbelief if we turn back.
Paul, battled it so will we who are finding truth.
In His Love, Marlene
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I have taken my eyes off of my sins
8)!
That is what receiving His Peace is all about! Only the Spirit of Christ can release us from the agony of our naked wretchedness. Only His Spirit can enfold us in the garments of spiritual gratitude. Only His Spirit can cover us in the robes of His Love that wraps us in His Mercy and Pity.
Isa 26:3 You will keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on You; because he trusts in You.
1Jn 3:19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
1Jn 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
It is good to remind one another of His Spiritual wardrobe that adorns His Children with His Spirit of Worship and Truth.
I am so glad all I want now is to look to Him
Yes. In seeing Him, is our peace and His Spirit giving to us that privilege and liberty to draw on His Love.
Neh 8:10 Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye sorry; for the joy of the LORD is your strength.
Arc
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Hi John
I pray to God that I am not tested to that limit where I may prefer to kill rather than see any of my loved ones murdered. God forbid! I know the Beast can do anything and that anyone of us can be any one of the people who have done what we consider beyond our capabilities.
We have a person staying with us for a while, who saw his wife murdered before his eyes three years ago. He was defensless -in the plan and purpose of His Creator who knows what He is doing. His life is a mess on the outside but God is a restorer of the broken hearted and He knows how and when to restore the lost.
Perhaps we say too easily that we would kill to save our loved ones, not knowing the full ramifications of such a thought or never having experienced the aftermath of having to see such a deeply painful tradgedy happen before us.
It is better to ask God to spare us ever having to imagine that we have to defend ourselves or our loved ones by agreement to take someone else's life. Having lived in the war time in Rhodesia, this challenge in thought came to test us all. I have long since decided that I prefer to die rather than live and you know what, that is a preference I know I have, not even having had to experience the difficulties that some folks are God given to endure and suffer! It would not take much to make me loose my mind or curl up and want to stop breathing. Only God is keeping any of us alive.
We are wise to ask that we do not become the club of death in the Hand of God used to defend, promote or protect ourselves for any reason. Your discernment and correction are therefore well placed for us all to consider and not only for Roy to discern.
I would prefer to die rather than to kill but even my death would be cruelty to those I love so to God be His plan and His purpose as to Him too depends our endurace in our test of Faith.
Arc
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Again this post as so many have been is quite pertinent in exploing some of the trials we face in our dying to the pulls of the flesh.As I am writing this on my verandah (I have not done this in months just to avoid the ridicule,insults and mockery of my neighbours),suddenly my neighbours have come down to within mere feet of me.However something has changed,stangely that urge to run and to want to defend myself has not welled up in me but I do feel a strange sense of pity for them.Again from all I have learnt from you all is ,we have to endeavour to look away from self and look to the Lord for our help,we have to count the cost to follow Jesus,we have to accept our allotment.
I have been a prisoner to the fear of my enemies, to the possibility of things happening that might not even occur and with Ray's inspiration all I am now able to do is to pray for the strength and faith to face my trials and the pulls of the flesh.This I am learning might not happen in an instant but overtime with the aid of the Spirit, from darkness and chaos to order and wholeness.
I am sorry, I am rambling but today was a good day.
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Hi John,
I'll answer only one of your questions of which I speak for myself. Yes! I think it would be ok for me to protect my family and myself even if it meant taking a life in the process. It isn't something I would want to happen, but I don't think it would be wrong in any way. God never told us to let someone kill us or a family member. Police officers do it all the time and its right that they do it to protect others from being harmed.
My statement is me, of what I feel. I don't expect anyone to agree or disagree, but this post isn't about killing people. The title is, (Who is the enemy) as in spiritual enemy. My statement was clear that it wasn't about killing people.
Please don't let it go there and get this thread locked down.
I have gained a lot from this topic of Who is the Enemy, not whether its okay to kill people.
Roy
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this post isn't about killing people
You make a valid point Roy also about knowing where and how you stand before God which is between you and God just as what I feel or what anyone else feels is also between them and God. :)
How did Samson feel when he said Jdg 16:30 ……… Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life.
The last thing Zedekiah’s eyes saw was the death of his sons after which he was put in prison till the day of his death. Only God knows what He did to Zedekiah’s heart and mind during that time. We have a glimpse. The experience of evil, humbles us.
2Ki 25:7 And they slew the sons of Zedekiah before his eyes, and put out the eyes of Zedekiah, and bound him with fetters of brass, and carried him to Babylon.
God has given us a better plan.
Heb 11:39 All these people (OT faithful and prophets )won approval for their faith but did not receive what was promised,
Heb 11:40 since God had planned something better for us so that they would not become perfect without us.
Both Zedekiah and his sons and Samson and the Prophets are dead. We are alive and speculating and contending, is fruitless.
The best is yet to come either with or without us. With us, we are found watching after the fruit of His Spirit which is Love, Joy, Peace, Kindness, Goodness, Gentleness, Faithfulness, Endurance and Patience. Without which He comes as a thief in the night. The Best that returns to us, is Christ. 8)
Arc
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Ark, I must admit that you are a blessing.
Roy
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Thank you John for clarifying. Forgive me that it seems I was offended, because I promise I wasn't, nor did I intend to offend you. Okay! now that we have that out of the way.
I can only speak for myself in regard to your question, Can a NT follower of Jesus take a life?
Well it has never occurred to me that I might be an elect., but I think I can say that it would take the power of God to keep his elect from taking a life. We can only do, and not do, by His power and intentions.
I think I'll wait for the more mature to answer your question, but first I'll say that murder isn't the same as defending your life or someone else, at least not the way I see it and understand. Since God is in complete control of everything then I'd say the elect won't have to worry about taking a life, but if they did then that's just the way it was meant to be. It wasn't meant to be for His disciples to take a life. Its up to God.
I say I would take a life, but God could keep me from it.
Peace
Roy
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I ask the question because God's Elect will be Kings and Priests in the Kingdom ruling over others. When those we lead and are responsible for, come to us and ask a simple question, "can a follower of Jesus take a life?" What will our answer be? It seems a simple and basic question? There should be a simple and straightforward answer.
Again, I do not want to throw off your topic.
Peace, John
John,
I understand the question but the reasoning behind it seems a bit off. Who has said anything about anyone 'coming to us' and asking questions in the Day of the Lord? Christ always SENT His disciples to look after His flock...Paul did not set up shop in 1 town and have the nations come and ask him questions.
Members,
As far as taking another person's life...what does the scriptures say? The hypothetical discussion of whether or not to use self-defense or violent force never leads to an edifying conclusion. The only thing it does is show how carnal we ALL still are as we quote scriptures by the dozen all over the forum but when a 'hard' scenario is presented, we just toss those same scriptures to the wind.
If anyone disagrees, please simply email Ray...this is his teaching grounds and it is pointless for everyone to try to justify their own opinions in this matter. The forum has 'been there, done that' in regards to this subject.
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2701.msg20050.html#msg20050):
Hello Ray,
Cheers to your spreading the truth! I really admire someone with intelligence.
A quick question, please. If we are to love our enemy, does that mean we should not defend ourselves?
Scenario: A person breaks into your house and attacks your family. Should we not fight off the attack?
Thank you, Matt
Dear Matt:
That's a fair question, and I do not wish to offend you in any way for asking it, but let me use your email as a teaching tool for others as well, okay? I really hate answering hypothetical questions. Five minutes ago while having my coffee and watcing the morning new, Chris Wallace asked Jim Baker, "IF the President were to put YOU in charge of negotiations between the US and Iran, how would you go about it?" Mr. Baker said: "The President won't put me in charge, so I won't be doing any negotiations." When asked a second time, he replied, "I don't answer hypothetical questions.."
I have seen people backed into corners over hypothetical questions. Not that you are doing that, but if I were to put say some "limitation" on the amount of force to be used in this hypothetical family attack, let's say "hypothetically 5 pounds" of force, then the question would be, "But what if the situation reqauired 5 pounds and 1 ounce to be administered?" What about 5 pounds and 2 ounces? 3 ounces? What if it were a situation in which one had to shoot a person in the head with a 57 Magnum or your whole family would die? Would you shoot him? What if your family would die and the whole city with them, unless you personally would SHOOT this person? "What if one shot in the head would SAVE THE WHOLE WORLD, would you do it, Ray?"
You know what? I don't think I want to answer hypothetical questions either. God said that we should not try to rehearse in our minds just what we would say if brought before a board of persecutors, neither do I think we need to try and rehearse what we would do if someone broke into our home. You don't know what you would do, number one, and most would not follow my advice anyway, number two. Jesus didn't say: "If a bully strikes your little girl on her right cheeck, turn to him the left cheek of your daughter also," now did He? Although, someone will now probably ask, "But what would you do, Ray, if that happened?" You know it is possible to physically defend oneself and one's family without "hating" the offender.
Trust me when I say that if it has not yet happened, it will, when your faith with be tried in a way that is just between you and your God, and there won't even be time to send me an email. Bottom line: Don't try to come up with 'hypothetical' situations in which you think that the laws of God and the ways of God would not be fair, or practical, or logical, and therefore would have to be changed, altered, or just totally thrown away as useless in practical, real life situations. The shame is that many people who have used alternative measures to God's ways, and have failed in so doing, will never know how things would have been different had they just trusted God in the first place. It is oh so true, that "we learn obedience by the things WE SUFFER."
God be with you,
Ray
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1516.msg12843.html#msg12843):
What do you believe the bible says about personal self defense? If you can not answer me now I would like to see something on your site in the future. Thank you.
Dear Michael:
The Bible says: "But I say unto you, That ye RESIST NOT EVIL, but whosoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also" (Matt. 5:39).
God be with you,
Ray
Thanks,
Marques
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A lesson learned in everything said and done in the neighborhood. Won't you be my neighbor? Can everyone say neighbor? Of course you can. ;D
Peace
Roy
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God causes everything and that would include whatever we are posting here in this Forum.
I say I would take a life, but God could keep me from it.
That is absolutely the truth Roy. Ray expounds the fact that God MADE Jesus.
You say and recognise Roy, that what you would do, you recognize that God can cause you or anyone to do differently. Paul also knew that. Jesus knew the weak condition of Peter's unconverted heart and even this Peter denied to the face of God and then later much to his bitterness, he denied even knowing Jesus.
God knows what we are going to do before we do it. God knew that Adam and Eve would eat the forbidden fruit. This is one of the truths that is denied by all of Christiandom and is well expounded in the series on the Myth of Free Will here in BT.
Only the Spirit of God can make us obedient and pleasing in His sight. God is all powerful to make the vessel to honor and the vessel to dishonor.
The following Scriptures show how powerful and Sovereign God is to even change our minds for the better! :)
Mat 21:28 "But what do you think? A man had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work in the vineyard today.'
Mat 21:29 His son replied, 'I don't want to,' but later he changed his mind and went.
Mat 21:30 Then the father went to the other son and told him the same thing. He replied, 'I will, sir,' but he didn't go.
Mat 21:31 Which of the two did the father's will?" They answered, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, tax collectors and prostitutes will get into God's kingdom ahead of you.
Arc
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Mat 21:28 "But what do you think? A man had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work in the vineyard today.'
Mat 21:29 His son replied, 'I don't want to,' but later he changed his mind and went.
Mat 21:30 Then the father went to the other son and told him the same thing. He replied, 'I will, sir,' but he didn't go.
Mat 21:31 Which of the two did the father's will?" They answered, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, tax collectors and prostitutes will get into God's kingdom ahead of you.
Ark I have read these scriptures many times and just now I finally understood the question, and the correct answer. This just confirms that there is a reason for everything said and done. It never ends as to the things we can learn from the unexpected.
I'm sorry that I made a statement in my leading post, but none the less it did lead to some good lessons learned on my part, and led to an answer I didn't know for many years.
Roy
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That is really the Spirit of God showing Himself in all His Wisdom that is causing our fellowship here in unity with His Mind and Heart Roy!
Have you ever done something admirable and well that you thought was impossible for you to do? Have you ever done something wrong and against what you yourself expected and that you never knew you were capable of? God controls everything we are feeling, thinking, doing and not doing. God is giving us all an experience that is to the Will and Purpose of His Plan as He guides our circumstances as He works to complete making us into His Image.
No one can help who and what they are except the Spirit of God. We know we cannot win souls. We are a peculiar lot! :)
I have of late been able to contribute in this Forum in a very different style, I think, than some of my earlier posts in the Forum where I was equipped to defeat the slightest deviation from the truth with great gusto that was never, not once to fail to refute the opinions of others that carried, expressed or seemed to prefer the errors of false beliefs.
As a great admirer of how Ray responded to his critics and detractors, I copied, learned and began to imitate his style and fervor. There is a place to refute and expose those who contradict but there is also a place to nurture, encourage and expound the truths as we see them as we begin to see the merit of truth and the foolishness of anything else that misses the mark.
I am seeing the Wisdom of being encouraging where appointed by God to be so, and to be aware of any good that is spoken and to be supportive of that rather than seeing the error and going hammer and tong to destroy, change or bring it shame, guilt or despair.
Refuting those who contradict is part of the process but not the process in isolation. As Ray expounded in his latest Conference, we are to learn how to welcome those who want to join us. Differences in opinions and navigating our way around views that do not line up with our own observations, is how we are to learn to be patient, trusting of God and humble in our dealings with those for whom Christ has died.
With all edification and to the Glory of God, we are here now in a most privileged window of His Spirit.
Arc
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Ark you have posted so many profound words in all of your replies in this thread. Everyone of them have statements that I have been dwelling on for awhile.
Topics I have started, plus some replies I've made to other post that seem to be related to interest I have; inspired by other comments from others, has narrowed down to this thread, all coming together with perfect clarity and conformation. What started out as seeing the man in the cafe in my post, "Seeing and loving people as god does", has come to full circle in this thread. I have apologized to Carrie Bradshaw for bashing her in several of her hubs. I deleted one of my hubs and intend to clean up the other 2 because my heart wasn't right when I wrote them, and all the words and intentions were wrong, but as rockerdude said, it was my hub that brought me out of I'm right your wrong kind of mentality, therefore God is in control of even my unrighteous hub, and comments to Carrie.
I was mixing law with truth, and doing it with an impure heart, and God led me in each direction that led me to repentance. I'm not saying exposing is wrong. I'm saying it has to be done with the right heart and intentions, and not to go out looking for it, seeking out someone just to expose. God let me know that one can share the truth with a humble heart.
As you said Ark, there is a time for it, and not a time.
This thread has been great in so many ways and will continue as I meditate more on it.
Ark. your writing has definitely changed with a tremendous spiritual improvement. Not saying anything bad about the before, but You just keep coming with awesome stuff that has blessed me, encouraged and summed up many things for me. Seeing people as God sees them, of which God let me do,the enemy, getting humbled, being humble, a purpose for everything, and the lessons in them, patience and understanding, not to judge and condemn others, and a few more.
I sincerely hope that others received as much from this thread as I have. I would like for it to keep coming. I can never get enough of this good stuff.
Thank you and continue as you are doing.
In Christ
Roy
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Good thread all around. I'll go ahead and lock it before it goes into 'left field'. :)
Marques