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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: gohaley on February 17, 2010, 08:19:16 PM
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The Evolution of animals from a common ancester is a bogus theory to most Christians. When creationists debate evolutionists; to stump the evolutionist, the creationist often brings up the topic of the, 'origin of life,' saying things like, "DNA is far too complicated to simply happen by itself."
Now this statement sounds true. However, in Ray’s conference on Genesis and creation, He said something that tweaked my ears. He brought my attention to Genesis 1:11
‘And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.’
Ray made it quite clear, that at Gods command, the EARTH (and NOT God) made grass/green, along with the rest of plant life. This means that the EARTH made the very first piece of physical life that existed in the entire universe. Now, all plant life contains DNA and the earth seems to spew plant life out like crazy. Ray also said at his conference that, God created the earth; and the earth makes everything on it. Things like mountains, sand, canyons, gold, rivers etc. Is DNA, also one of these things that the earth makes?
Apparently, human DNA isn't much different to that of a banana! Did God make humans out of same DNA stuff that is already naturally produced in the earth? Could humanity be the end of a grand creation, all done through a natural process of physics and evolution already pre-planned/designed before the big bang? Did God sit back and watch His whole creation unfold before his eyes over a process of 14 billion years or did He get hands on, making stars, galaxies, planets, fish and dinosaurs at every turn for 14 billion years. Could we say that the universe ‘made itself’, after God pushed the big bang red button or not? Was the creation ‘truly’ finished at the very start/foundation (big bang)? Why do secular (and some Christian) scientists insist that evolution is the ONLY scientific answer? Are they right or wrong?
Can someone please correct me in all the areas where my thinking is wrong (if not the whole thing). I know that this post is long and I’m sorry. I'm a music producer and not a scientist. I’m also NOT an evolutionist, but Ray has just got me thinking about this. He can do that…
Peace Greg (London, UK)
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(KJV) Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
(CLV) Gen 1:11 And saying is the Elohim, "Verdant shall become the land with verdure; with herbage seeding seed for its from-kind and for its likeness. and with the fruit tree whose seed is in it yielding fruit for its from-kind on the land." And coming is it to be so.
No version I have says, "Let the earth make." You know Ray pays attention to ALL the words. Regardless of what you may remember, he did not intimate that the earth MADE "green", animals, Mankind.
I don't know how many of your other questions flow out of this misunderstanding, so I won't attempt to answer them--especially since I don't have the answers in the first place. Whew! ;D
Without getting into "evolution" (which most lay-people don't even understand), there is no doubt that God is using natural processes to continue 'life' on earth. In other words, "...and coming is it to be so." It wouldn't surprise me to discover that He has always used natural processes from 'the Beginning' to do His creative work.
The 'problem' is, is that He doesn't tell us (except in the case of Mankind) HOW He did things "in the beginning" except to speak. I go back to the truth that all the Words of Scripture are Spirit. As much as we might not want them to be, they are. Can Spirit 'speak' as if it had a mouth?
Then again: Mat 21:21-22 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Maybe He'd already had some experience along these lines?
My ultimate answer right now is what it's been for all my life: I wasn't there. The Fool hath said in his heart 'There is no God.' I believe the fool still says in his heart 'There is no God that I can't fathom.'
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His thoughts are not our thoughts
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I have a quick question. According to Genesis, God made all the plant on the earth before the sun, moon, and stars... Wouldn't it make more sense to make the sun first? What's happening there? Thanks.
Hi Lupac. Don't hijack this thread, please. Read or watch the '08 Nashville conference again. If you still believe what you've written here, write to Ray. You may call it a 'quick question', but there is no quick answer.
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Okay, sure. I'm not sure I watched the whole thing. No harm intended., just was curious.
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Hi Greg,
plants can grow in sheer darkness, and in the depths of the sea, miles from direct sunlight, the earth brought forth its yield of abundant life by the power of God. Keep in mind that all we know and relate to is of and by God Almighty. God's force, energy, spirit, is in all things, whether He releases something immediately or over a period of ages, either way its all His doing.
It is clear to any sane free thinking person that evolution is flawed, and that fish just can't decide to become land animals via will or random happenings, oh, and a few hundred million years. Nothing happens at random if we have a true glimpse of God's sovereignty. If and when there is to be a restitution of all things then that may well mean the resurrection of every once living thing, since extinct, aions past. We simply don't know, some animals do appear to have 'souls'. Do plants have a collective consciousness? Who knows? Who cares? I like salads. All we know is that we are here and we have to make the most of it, and that tends to fill our time here until the Big Boss calls us up.
The universe didn't make itself, it has no 'self' it is inanimate, Jesus 'shaped' the universe under God's command and all its fabric is held together by him, everything consists because of him. God produced the matter and Jesus brought it into form. Man can make a chair but he can't make trees. God made matter from NOTHING, then Jesus did the shaping, and he is still shaping each and everyone of us until we resemble him. Perhaps all other things, even the angel are and end to the means of making man to be resident with God. God will have no doubt set times for things to happen and by his workings caused them to be so, including the formation of RNA, DNA, FBI & MI6, oh, and of course the Beatles.
All we have to believe is that everything is done by God for a perfect reason, of which the consummation has no yet occurred but it draws ever closer with each passing second. We are so to speak but seconds away from the goal of all creation, which is the body of creation in its entirety standing before God in jubilation that He is all our Father and Christ all our perfect elder brother, and that God is finally to be seen as the ALL-IN-ALL. Frankly the consequences of that not being so are so hopeless and loveless that they don't even bare thinking about. Lets hope we are right about God, otherwise its just Catchascatchcan:).
Peace,
Jimi,
UK Nottingham.
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Jimi,
I like what you said! :D
Here is something I have never done before, Greg, but here is something in line with Ray's teaching and you might enjoy reading it...hopefully the moderators will let it be...hope no one yells at me!! :)
***No Teaching Links***
This is what "Hell No" has to say about it....
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From Jimi
God made matter from NOTHING, then Jesus did the shaping, and he is still shaping each and everyone of us until we resemble him.
If anyone has been doing their homework; Ray has taught on this subject quite a bit.
In Beginning, GOD ('ĕlôhîym) Created (bârâ') for Making (Asah).
See: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8516.0.html for further reference points.
If one want to do the work, it is all laid out both in visible Created things and by Scientific Evidence gathered, not the un-scientific interpretation of evidence. But the evidence points to exactly how, why, when and for what our Creator GOD and Savior Jesus Christ Are doing even in minute little details to bring us to the point of being Like THEM.
Obviously If Christ States That GOD THE FATHER ALWAYS WAS, and not any thing; was before GOD THE FATHER; then all things were created out of GOD; NOT out of nothing.
PostScript To Nashville 2008
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9130.msg76395.html#msg76395
Gen 1:24 (CLV)
And saying is the Elohim, "Bring forth shall the earth the living soul for its from-kind, beast and moving animal and land life for its from-kind. "And coming is it to be so.
GOD Created Out of HIMSELF, not from nothing; Scripture shows constantly that alll that is Came out oF GOD. The visible came from The Invisible (Imperceptible) not from nothing.
Joh 1:1-5 (CLV)
1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. "
2 This was in the beginning toward God.
3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being."
4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men."
5 And the light is appearing in the darkness, and the darkness grasped it not."
Rom 1:20 (MKJV)
For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.
Rom 11:34-36 (CLV)
34 For, who knew the mind of the Lord? or, who became His adviser?
35 or, who gives to Him first, and it will be repaid Him?
36 seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!
2Co 4:16-18 (Rotherham)
16 Wherefore we faint not, but, even if, our outer man, is decaying, nevertheless, our inner man , is renewing day by day.
17 For, the momentary lightness of thee tribulation, in a manner yet more and more excelling, is working out for us, an age-abiding weight of glory,—
18 So long as we are not looking out for the visible things, but for the invisible; for, the visible things, are temporary, whereas, the invisible, are age-abiding.
Col 1:16 (GNB)
For through him God created everything in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen things, including spiritual powers, lords, rulers, and authorities. God created the whole universe through him and for him.
george :).
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Sorry, guys...
Kathy :)
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Was the creation ‘truly’ finished at the very start/foundation
God knows the beginning from the end. That is true. It doesn't mean that the end is manifested yet.
God is making man in His own Image. It doesn't mean that man is or ever has been in the Image of God yet.
The Lamb of God is not slain from the foundation of the world either.
Arc
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John,
Your right in that the KJV renders rev 13:8 that way but look at some others like the clnt and see what you think
Rev 13:8
(CLV) And all who are dwelling on the earth will be worshiping it, everyone whose name is not written in the scroll of life of the Lambkin slain from the disruption of the world."
(Diaglott-NT) And will worship him all those dwelling on the earth, of which not has been written the name in the scroll of the life of the lamb of that having been killed, from a casting down of a world.
(GNB) All people living on earth will worship it, except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to the Lamb that was killed.
(KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Ray goes in depth on this subject but I am not sure where it is at, at the moment.
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Here are three different translations that make it clearer, Ray has done a study on this already too.
Mobile Conference 2009
Audio 7
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10976.msg94788.html#msg94788
Rev 13:8 (ASV)
And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.
Rev 13:8 (Darby)
and all that dwell on the earth shall do it homage, every one whose name had not been written from the founding of the world in the book of life of the slain Lamb.
Rev 13:8 (ESV)
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
george :).
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well done george ;D
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The following should answer some of your questions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIvmXTlgi6I
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:) George and Roy, thanks for your input (from true study and worship of God) to this topic.
Musicman, I do not have the luxury to download youtube clips that are posted in the Forum.
John, here is an excerpt out of Ray’s conference last year. Thank you for your question.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship Him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Well now either that shows that in some way or shape or form, before the world was made, in God’s mind or whatever, Christ was already slain. Before He was ever brought into existence, right? Either that or maybe this is not translated properly. Let’s take a look at that concept.
The World English Bible:
Revelation 13:8 And all who dwell on the earth will worship Him, every one whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been killed.
Huh, do you get that? It was “written from the foundation of the world.”
Darby’s 1890 Translation:
Revelation 13:8 All that dwell in the earth shall do homage, everyone whose name had not been written from the founding of the world in the book of life of the slain Lambkin.
The Living Bible:
Revelation 13:8 they are the ones whose names were not written in the book of life before the world was made, the book that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered.
Do you think that none of these translators knew what they were doing? Do you think that all these are phoney translations, that have not a clue as to what they were doing?
American Standard Version:
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship Him, everyone whose name had not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that had been slain.
Not that had been slain from the foundation of the world, “written… in the book” before the foundation of the world.
The New American Bible:
Version Revelation 13:8 And all the inhabitants of the earth will worship It, all whose names had not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life which belongs to the Lamb who was slain.
Emphatic Diaglott:
Revelation 13:8 And all who dwell on the earth shall worship Him, whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the scroll of the life of that Lamb who was killed.
How many more do you need until you begin to think, ‘there might be something wrong with that King James translation?’ …………….
The New Revised Standard Version:
Revelation 13:8 Everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of the life of the Lamb, that was slaughtered.
Moffat Translation:
Revelation 13:8 All dwellers on earth will be worshippers; everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb.
Here Moffat says, the words of the lamb slain are probably a gloss, a marginal insertion from Revelation 21:27. The “book of life” elsewhere appears without any such addition.
English Standard Version:
Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
I quit there. I’ll tell you why I quit there. I somehow lost the site where it had hundreds of translations and that’s as far as I got. I couldn’t find the site back, just lost it. But anyway, I got that from hundreds of translations.
So, how much credence do we give that? “We know He was slain from the foundation of the world (but He wasn’t slain until 33AD) and what proves it? Revelation 13:8.“ Ooops! Not quite.
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God is making man in His own Image. It doesn't mean that man is or ever has been in the Image of God yet.
Deb, I take exception to that statement ;)
Seriously though, I think Jesus fit that description, he is that man and is our example.
Craig
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Man, Oh man, you are right Craig! :D Thank you. I stand corrected.
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Deb :)
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Roy, George, Arcturus,
Thanks for the information on Rev.13:8. Big dumb me. I was at the November bible conference and had forgot about Ray's teachings on this point. The KJV of Rev. 13:8 can be misunderstood.
John
Hi John, Deb, Roy, Craig, Ninny,
Sorry Kathy :-[, i missed again. :-* ;D
Here is what i say my brothers and sister, let him who has never erred, jump up and celebrate, or load up the slings. Nice; no one is jumping up and celebrating or loading slings, we are all fallen by our physical nature. Great thing is; GOD Sees us as righteous, in Christ Jesus, and, If GOD Be For us, do we cares, who, is against us?
Rom 8:31-39 (CLV)
31 What then, shall we declare to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
32 Surely, He Who spares not His own Son, but gives Him up for us all, how shall He not, together with Him, also, be graciously granting us all?
33 Who will be indicting God's chosen ones? God, the Justifier?
34 Who is the Condemner? Christ Jesus, the One dying, yet rather being roused, Who is also at God's right hand, Who is pleading also for our sakes?
35 What shall be separating us from the love of God in Christ Jesus? Affliction, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
36 According as it is written that "On Thy account we are being put to death the whole day, We are reckoned as sheep for slaughter."
37 Nay! in all these we are more than conquering through Him Who loves us.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor messengers, nor sovereignties, nor the present, nor what is impending, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord."
george ;D.
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Yaaaay!! George!!! :D ;D
Kathy ;)
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I second Kathy's Yay, George. :)
Marlene
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George, you made me smile! :D
Kathy ;)
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Hi aqr,
the statement that I made of God creating the universe out of nothing was merely figurative, it is obvious that God made everything that we call the universe, creation, from Himself. Can you tell me what God is made out of? Spirit!? What then is spirit,is it matter? Or is it 'NOTHING' that we can physically describe?
Love you to bits, God be with you.
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If the words"DNA" can be explained everything,I would say Any species will develop into human,cuz that's random.but why not?why human is human,dog is dog,other is other.
If evolution is true,why all species don't have The same ancestor or why all species don't have The same part of "DNA",If the words"DNA" can be explained everything,why?I never heard any Scientist said:"all species have The same part of "DNA"."
so why? OH! GOD. you joke with us.
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I believe that DNA actually proves the existence of an intelligent creator and completely shatters the idea of blind evolution. Think about what DNA actually is. DNA is a coding language. Even biological evolutionists will admit that DNA is a "code". Look at a piece of sheet music, a piece of computer software, a map or even human language. They are all pieces of "code".
Compare these to a rock or a snowflake, for example. There is no "code" in the makeup of a snowflake, even though a snowflake appears to be extremely complex. Even though a snowflake is a complex pattern and appears to have "design", it is a natural occurrence due to weather, rain, wind, etc. DNA is not a naturally occurring pattern. It is a design.
If something has been encoded (symbolized), then a mind is at work, pure and simple. Codes demand forethought and purpose. Even atheists will admit that a map, a piece of software, or a human language must have come from a mind. DNA, by its very nature is no different!
I discovered this at a site called CosmicFingerprints. Well worth the read!
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We do not need to look any farther than our own selves, everything we can see of us is only the tiniest fraction, less than -0.01% of what we consist of, have any doubt, check your atoms lately?. Guess what the +99.99% that hold all together is? amazing what we learn when we let Scripture explain itself.
Some in current Physics, liken us to holograms, there is some validity in that analogy, but only in our visible (perceptible -0.01% parts). The two excerpts below from Scripture tell everyting, but it is well to go and read those complete chapters a few more times, lots of light there.
Col 1:15-19 (GNB)
15 Christ is the visible likeness of the invisible God. He is the first-born Son, superior to all created things.
16 For through him God created everything in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen things, including spiritual powers, lords, rulers, and authorities. God created the whole universe through him and for him.
17 Christ existed before all things, and in union with him all things have their proper place.
18 He is the head of his body, the church; he is the source of the body's life. He is the first-born Son, who was raised from death, in order that he alone might have the first place in all things.
19 For it was by God's own decision that the Son has in himself the full nature of God.
Rom 1:18-23 (GNB)
18 God's anger is revealed from heaven against all the sin and evil of the people whose evil ways prevent the truth from being known.
19 God punishes them, because what can be known about God is plain to them, for God himself made it plain.
20 Ever since God created the world, his invisible qualities, both his eternal power and his divine nature, have been clearly seen; they are perceived in the things that God has made. So those people have no excuse at all!
21 They know God, but they do not give him the honor that belongs to him, nor do they thank him. Instead, their thoughts have become complete nonsense, and their empty minds are filled with darkness.
22 They say they are wise, but they are fools;
23 instead of worshiping the immortal God, they worship images made to look like mortals or birds or animals or reptiles.
george :).
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Jesus Christ is the “Missing Link” Evolutionists are looking for! :D
The Jews are looking for the missing Ark of the Covenant. Will either the Evolutionists or the Jews find the Truth?
Arc
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Hi all....Geology- land masses- striations...that stuff really sets me to thinking more so than evolution stuff....How old this earth is!!!! No deepness here, just chipping in on a very enjoyable thread!
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Arc, I love the missing link is Jesus Christ. Also the Jews are looking for the perfect red heifer but they won't find it because we are that perfect red heifer in progress. I looked up what is a heifer, and it is a young calf that is a virgin, and after she has a calf she becomes a cow.
Spiritually we are the virgin bride to be. Amen
Blessings,
Margo