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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: FREEINDEED on June 21, 2006, 02:18:44 AM
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I'm kind of new to this forum. But in my research of this website. I haven't really came across anyone discussing Deliverance. When I was attending Church on a regular basis. We would have Deliverance services. Since coming to know some truth about the word of God. I was wondering if Homosexuals and Lesbians can be delivered from this Lifestyle or if it's God will for them to live this way?
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FREEINDEED,
OK, I'll jump in. Welcome to BT Freeindeed.
I was wondering if Homosexuals and Lesbians can be delivered from this Lifestyle or if it's God will for them to live this way?
Free, this is a minor point, but a lesbian is a homosexual. But as to your question: Is it His will? If it's happening I'd have to say, "Yes!" But the greater question is, is it His 'good' 'acceptable' 'perfect will'? Or is it just His 'good will', or 'good and acceptable will'? The following verse seems to indicate that something is required to meet the 'completed' will of God. All things came forth from God, are being processed through God, and ultimately will return to God. This is what accomplishes His 'completed will', I think. :wink:
ROM 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
So how does one get a renewing of...mind that they might 'prove' His 'complete will'? It looks to me like it has something to do with our 'choice' in thinking first. And according to the following verse 'good works' (life changes?) follow renewed thinking. And as a man thinks...so is/does he.
HEB 13:20.21 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Though most here would say, from the above verse, that it is still 'God' who makes you perfect, and not our 'free will'. I would agree. But IMO, it is still our 'choice' (a term Ray approves of) to repent . It's our 'choice' to die to self and drink his blood/life of the 'everlasting covenant'. When that life raises us up we no longer walk in death in that area of our life.
Free, I have personally known a homosexual who has come out of this lifestyle and operated a ministry in our small town. A town where even today, they're mostly in the closet. I'm curious as to why you're asking the question? And what it has to do with deliverance, or is that a second question.
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I used to go to churches that would "deliver" people from various things.
I don't know now with my new found knowledge. Maybe at Mike's site you can search- put in deliverance and see if he has said anything on it.
I know God can heal, deliver, answer prayer. I think it was a Mike Williams that got "delivered" of homosexuality....and now years later he has a website that says he was a phoney and did not get delivered.
Sometimes I get confused on everything being the will of God, but then He can remake the pottery with a contrite heart.
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God said he created some to honor and some to dishonor.
I would suggest you read the first couple of chapters of Romans and I think this will answer your question.
bobby
I could be way out in left field here, but...
We know that God uses the elect to judge the masses in the next age, do you suppose He uses the masses for judgement on the elect now? :?:
Craig
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God said he created some to honor and some to dishonor.
I would suggest you read the first couple of chapters of Romans and I think this will answer your question.
bobby
I could be way out in left field here, but...
We know that God uses the elect to judge the masses in the next age, do you suppose He uses the masses for judgement on the elect now? :?:
Craig
Hello Craig,
I think you're right. These verses came to mind when I thought about this. Let me know what you think.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
Psa 38:19 But mine enemies are lively, and they are strong: and they that hate me wrongfully are multiplied.
Psa 38:20 They also that render evil for good are mine adversaries; because I follow the thing that good is.
Psa 56:2 Mine enemies would daily swallow me up: for they be many that fight against me, O thou most High.
Am I on the same track as you? I sure can see God using unbelievers as well as the babylon system to judge us now.
Andy
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God said he created some to honor and some to dishonor.
I would suggest you read the first couple of chapters of Romans and I think this will answer your question.
bobby
I could be way out in left field here, but...
We know that God uses the elect to judge the masses in the next age, do you suppose He uses the masses for judgement on the elect now? :?:
Craig
Very interesting...
We do everything according to God's purpose, but rarely do anything according to His will. We all go through bad times, and do things we are not proud of, but this enables us to comfort those who go through the same things. The Thessalonians were going through great persecution, and Paul told them to comfort one another.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
Brian
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God said he created some to honor and some to dishonor.
I would suggest you read the first couple of chapters of Romans and I think this will answer your question.
bobby
I could be way out in left field here, but...
We know that God uses the elect to judge the masses in the next age, do you suppose He uses the masses for judgement on the elect now? :?:
Craig
I have often thought along similar lines. It was not so much judgement that I equate as much as a "trial by fire" kind of relationship. The masses become the temptors to overcome. Who better than someone like yourself to tempt you to fall from the path to the spiritual. How many distractions can fellow humans make?
God took human form to show us the way. We have an example to emulate. We have Christ on one hand and the rest of mankind on the other.
Thanks to Adam and Eve we have knowledge from the tree of good and evil. Christ made man is our living example of how to deal with and use that knowledge.
You can read and debate all the scripture you want but Christ gave us but two commandments.
FREEINDEED WROTE:
..."I was wondering if Homosexuals and Lesbians can be delivered from this Lifestyle or if it's God will for them to live this way?"...
Welcome to the forum. I find it sad but not unusual that your first question to the forum asks about homosexuality. It is a far sadder commentary that religious and governmental leaders are so concerned about gay marriage and feeding the flames of homophobia.
What is there to fear about homosexuals? I don't understand it. True enough it is a lifestyle choice or biological trait that I do not fully understand. However, someone's sex life is not what a person is but just a small part of who they are.
You ask if someone can be delivered from being what God made them. I say yes. We are all to be delivered from what God made us as humans. We will be resurrected to be spiritual entities. Our human fleshy bodily needs and functions will no longer exist.
What about this life. Are homosexuals meantto be a distraction to the elect as Craig suggests. They might be if we become bigots and choose to judge them. I suggest that adulterers, drunkards, liars, thieves and anyone else who actually does things that causes hurt to themselves or another surely are.
Do you know anyone who you consider to be a really nice person. Someone who you would have nothing but positive things to say about. Someone who you would think had a great shot at sainthood?
I know two such people. They happen to be a couple and they happen to both be men. They have taught me a lot about my own fears and insecurities just by seeing their example.
I don't fear them. I don't understand why others do. There is very little likelihood that I will turn into a homosexual just as they say there is very little likelihood that they will turn into heterosexuals. They say that homosexuality was not a choice for them, that God made them or willed them that way. Their question to me was "Who would choose a way of life despised by the majority, subjected to constant physical or verbal abuse?"
I didn't mean to get off on a tangent but I see so much hurt and betrayal caused by adultery where a spouse is deceived and dishonored through that lack of fidelity.
Again, welcome. I hope that you are able to find the truth you seek.
feat
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Craig you have brought up a good point and I see it this way.
If the elect are being judged by the masses we know that this is not righteous judgment.
God is THE righteous judge.
bobby
Bobby, I didn't mean the elect are being judged by the masses. I meant that God is using the masses to judge the elect.
Clear as mud :?: :D
Craig
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God said he created some to honor and some to dishonor.
I would suggest you read the first couple of chapters of Romans and I think this will answer your question.
bobby
Could you be more specific in your verse references? As I look at Romans I don't know if God created them that way or not. Look at the following verse.
ROM 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
This verse indicates that they 'knew God' before. And I'm wondering if it was because they refused to change, after coming to know Him, that they were not giving glory to God. In essence, after being spiritually reborn and spirit saved, they were refusing His progressive salvation of Christ's life into their "Christian" life walk. They then 'became vain' and their enlightened hearts became 'darkened'.
I don't think "glorifying God" means sitting around singing 'glory, glory, glory' either. I think that glory, from man to God, is always associated with a lifestyle change that 'manifests/reveals/glorifies the light' of the life of Christ within. If we say "Yes! Yes!" but walk with the devil, then we are glorifying/manifesting/revealing the devil's life in us (which is really death).
As I read Romans 1, I see several other verses which indicate that it is talking about believers who have accepted the salvation of their spirits by receiving Jesus as savior, but they are not working out the salvation of their walk on earth by making the life changes prompted by making Him Lord when convicted by the Spirit, as to sin in their life. They are basically backslidden unto the point of being the "pig in its wallow" and the "dog eating his vomit." Thoughts?
Harryfeat
I like your "trial by fire" POV. I've often said that I believe in this age, those who are not going to be called are here for that very reason of trying and testing the character of Christ into, or out of, us.
What is there to fear about homosexuals? I don't understand it. True enough it is a lifestyle choice or biological trait that I do not fully understand. However, someone's sex life is not what a person is but just a small part of who they are.
Harry, I totally agree with not fearing homos, and honestly feel like that term is really to invoke a "woe is us because of paranoid crazy religious nuts" attitude for the homosexual community/agenda. Maybe that's because of my locality and local POV. Do you feel that sexual sins appear to have a greater 'gravity?' in God's eyes, and therefore in scripture, than other sins?
Do you know anyone who you consider to be a really nice person. Someone who you would have nothing but positive things to say about. Someone who you would think had a great shot at sainthood?
I know two such people. They happen to be a couple and they happen to both be men. They have taught me a lot about my own fears and insecurities just by seeing their example.
Let me first say this, I believe one can be a homosexual and still enter into life in the hereafter. But I am curious, are these two, professing Christianity? Do they look at their 'lifestyles' as being 'approved by God'...or as sin which they struggle with?
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Harry, I totally agree with not fearing homos, and honestly feel like that term is really to invoke a "woe is us because of paranoid crazy religious nuts" attitude for the homosexual community/agenda. Maybe that's because of my locality and local POV. Do you feel that sexual sins appear to have a greater 'gravity?' in God's eyes, and therefore in scripture, than other sins?
Do you know anyone who you consider to be a really nice person. Someone who you would have nothing but positive things to say about. Someone who you would think had a great shot at sainthood?
I know two such people. They happen to be a couple and they happen to both be men. They have taught me a lot about my own fears and insecurities just by seeing their example.
Let me first say this, I believe one can be a homosexual and still enter into life in the hereafter. But I am curious, are these two, professing Christianity? Do they look at their 'lifestyles' as being 'approved by God'...or as sin which they struggle with?
Hello Dee,
The easy answer to your first question about greater gravity is no, absolutely not. [Isaac Newton notwithstanding] I believe that the gravity of sexual sin was an outgrowth of the old testament where the laws were meant to keep the children in line. However, what is your definition of sexual sin? I have a somewhat qwerky view. I don't believe that there are such things as sins of the flesh. If there were, homosexual cattle would be going straight to hell :shock: [j/k]
I believe that sins are commited long before there has been any physical result from our thoughts. We are little different from other animals in our physical needs. It is my belief that it is our spiritual side that distinguishes us and where we commit sin. What is your definition of sin?
The answer to your second question about whether my friends are christian or not is simply irrelevant to their "salvation". The fact is I never asked them about their religious persuasion.
However, they have told me that they find nowhere in scripture where Christ is quoted as saying that any consensual sex act other than adultery as a sin. They also stated that the ten commandments do not refer to any consensual sex prohibitions other than adultery. Their emphasis was always on the word consensual.
This is their response to the question you ask.
I hope that helps assuage your curiosity.
feat
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Hi Lightseeker,
First I would like to thank everyone for responding to my post. The reason I asked this question is because it is a very controversy subject right now. The whole world is in a uproar about this subject. I was watching a movie on Lifetime entitle "A Girl Like Me." It was about a young man that had male genitals. But in his brain he thought that he was a woman. The world call this individual a Transgender. I posted my question really just to get an understanding on what the truth is? How shall we the Body of Christ respond to people that we believe are struggling with this lifestyle? Should we just let them be and say that they were borned this way or should we continue to tell them that they shouldn't be this way and that it is an abomination in God's eyesight. I came to this website, because I know that we are seeking the Truth and by reading all the different post. I see that we have different views on this subject.
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I've been lost for a while here. Didn't know the forum was back until I Googled it today.
Bobby
Dee God gives us choices and that life style is a choice which God gave them over to.
Romans 1:28
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
The original question...I think...was, did God make them homosexual? None of your scriptural refrences say...yes IMO. They all say we were created 'under sin' 'not righteous' 'all have sinned' ect. And I agree with all of that. But none of these verses say what kind of sin or sinner we would end up being.
In the above verse they apparently had God in their knowledge but didn't want to retain that way of thinking therefore God finally gave them over and let them have their reprobate thinking.
Anyway just some thoughts.
HARRYFEAT
The easy answer to your first question about greater gravity is no, absolutely not. [Isaac Newton notwithstanding] I believe that the gravity of sexual sin was an outgrowth of the old testament where the laws were meant to keep the children in line. However, what is your definition of sexual sin? I have a somewhat qwerky view. I don't believe that there are such things as sins of the flesh. If there were, homosexual cattle would be going straight to hell
1CO 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
The term 'abusers of themselves is also translated 'sexual pervert' RSV,' homosexual/offender' NAS NIV and 'sodomite' in YLT. That's why I asked about 'gravity' of sexual sins being greater, since it says they won't inherit the kingdom of God. Curious as to your thoughts on this verse. As far as cattle, monkeys ect. practicing homosexual behavior I guess I put them in a lower state than that of man. They aren't accountable for participating in the the fall which has affected 'all' of creation. That's why "all of creation groaneth awaiting deliverance".
1JO 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
I believe that sins are commited long before there has been any physical result from our thoughts. We are little different from other animals in our physical needs. It is my belief that it is our spiritual side that distinguishes us and where we commit sin. What is your definition of sin?
I believe that an 'iniquity' is the inherited spiritual tendency to commit a sin. A 'transgression' is a failure in our mind, will, emotional realm (soul) where we make the decision to bodily commit 'sin' (either by action...or inaction [or sins of commission or omission]). Saying a lot to get to the last definition of...Sin itself is just 'missing the mark'. Hope that definition helps.
Company showed up gotta quit for a while,
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I've been lost for a while here. Didn't know the forum was back until I Googled it today.
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HARRYFEAT
The easy answer to your first question about greater gravity is no, absolutely not. [Isaac Newton notwithstanding] I believe that the gravity of sexual sin was an outgrowth of the old testament where the laws were meant to keep the children in line. However, what is your definition of sexual sin? I have a somewhat qwerky view. I don't believe that there are such things as sins of the flesh. If there were, homosexual cattle would be going straight to hell
1CO 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
The term 'abusers of themselves is also translated 'sexual pervert' RSV,' homosexual/offender' NAS NIV and 'sodomite' in YLT. That's why I asked about 'gravity' of sexual sins being greater, since it says they won't inherit the kingdom of God. Curious as to your thoughts on this verse. As far as cattle, monkeys ect. practicing homosexual behavior I guess I put them in a lower state than that of man. They aren't accountable for participating in the the fall which has affected 'all' of creation. That's why "all of creation groaneth awaiting deliverance".
1JO 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
As far as the verse goes, all it says to me is there is no difference in severity or "gravity". It doesn't matter where you classify it, it is no better or worse than any other be it sexual or otherwise. If you read Leviticus you get the distinct impression that some things are more grave than others and require death or stoning. My perception is that the OT and all of its laws were meant to keep the Jews in line. If you can find anywhere in the new testament where there is a quote from Christ about gravity then perhaps my pov about the ot laws may need revising. When looking at the topic of sin, I tend to question anything written by the apostles as a carryover from their backgound steeped in Jewish law and ot scripture.
I am sorry my inteintions were not clear. The sending cattle to hell remark was a tongue in cheek absolute joke. It was not meant to be taken seriously. [see also my next comments about our spiritual side distinguishing us.]
I believe that sins are commited long before there has been any physical result from our thoughts. We are little different from other animals in our physical needs. It is my belief that it is our spiritual side that distinguishes us and where we commit sin. What is your definition of sin?
I believe that an 'iniquity' is the inherited spiritual tendency to commit a sin. A 'transgression' is a failure in our mind, will, emotional realm (soul) where we make the decision to bodily commit 'sin' (either by action...or inaction [or sins of commission or omission]). Saying a lot to get to the last definition of...Sin itself is just 'missing the mark'. Hope that definition helps.
Company showed up gotta quit for a while,
Miissing the mark seems to capture the essence of failure. There is no quantification or qualification of this failure in terms of gravity or seriousness. If you miss the mark then it doesn't matter what the nature of the failure was. All failure seems to be equal.
It is still not clear to me how this definition fits into a category of "sins of the flesh". What do you say they are?
feat
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HARRYFEAT
You don't think the last verse I quoted speaks to a difference in severity of sin?
1JO 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
How do you view this verse?
My perception is that the OT and all of its laws were meant to keep the Jews in line.
"In line"? For what purpose? I had always heard that they were to reveal the need for a savior because they/us could never live up to the law.
GAL 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Sorry I missed the cow joke. ??? Hey you never know here what people believe about some things. ;)
It is still not clear to me how this definition fits into a category of "sins of the flesh". What do you say they are?
This may come off clear as mud...but here goes. I think that all sins which stem from a "lust of the flesh" are sins of the flesh. Whereas all sins that stem from a "lust of the eyes" are a soulish sin. And lastly are sins that stem from the "pride of life" are spiritual sins. It's not that they are "different kinds of sin" as much as they are from different avenues of temptation.
1JO 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Gotta go...Mama wants me to take her to the movies tonight.
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I was wondering if Homosexuals and Lesbians can be delivered from this Lifestyle or if it's God will for them to live this way?
Yes... All "Homosexuals and Lesbians," will be delivered from this Lifestyle. It will happen either during this life time or during the Lake of Fire. It will be brought about via God's Chastening Grace.
In the past I was one of the many that actually thought that "THEY" were evil sinners. I believed that "THEY" had a choice and simply made the wrong one. I actually believed that homosexuality was a sin above sins. What a FOOL I WAS! :-[
Homosexuality is a sin... BUT, I've been given to see that it is no more a sin than any other sin. Yes, it IS a "sexual sin"... :o Just like the lusting (sexual) sin I commited when I looked at many women. Just like when I..... (You get the picture.)
Hmmm.... Where does that put me? No less a sinner... A sexual sinner at that!!! Guilty of 1 = Guilty of ALL. :'(
I began to wonder, "Why do THEY have those desires?" I couldn't imagine having them... But thankfully I can see now...
IF I was born with the same gifts... (Both negative and positive)
IF I was born into the same environment... (Time, parents, siblings, friends, school, etc.)
IF I was in the same situations...
I WOULD BE A HOMOSEXUAL, too. I was created marred, too.
Why do hetrosexuals seem so interested in pointing out the homosexuals' sin?
My belief, at this point, is that hetrosexuals believe that the sin of homosexuality is the ONE sin they can claim the never commited. "Yep... I may have commited every other sin there is, but I didn't do that one. No Siree... Not ME!" So that must make it worse. Right? And of course its my job to point this out to everyone. (Point out those HOMOs so that nobody notices my own sins is more like it.)
Sin is Sin... Thankfully, God's Chastening Grace fits all sizes, shapes, and colors.
Ward
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HARRYFEAT
You don't think the last verse I quoted speaks to a difference in severity of sin?
1JO 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
How do you view this verse?
My perception is that the OT and all of its laws were meant to keep the Jews in line.
"In line"? For what purpose? I had always heard that they were to reveal the need for a savior because they/us could never live up to the law.
GAL 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Sorry I missed the cow joke. ??? Hey you never know here what people believe about some things. ;)
It is still not clear to me how this definition fits into a category of "sins of the flesh". What do you say they are?
This may come off clear as mud...but here goes. I think that all sins which stem from a "lust of the flesh" are sins of the flesh. Whereas all sins that stem from a "lust of the eyes" are a soulish sin. And lastly are sins that stem from the "pride of life" are spiritual sins. It's not that they are "different kinds of sin" as much as they are from different avenues of temptation.
1JO 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Gotta go...Mama wants me to take her to the movies tonight.
I will repeat my statement from the last post: If you can find anywhere in the new testament where there is a quote from Christ about gravity then perhaps my pov about the ot laws may need revising. When looking at the topic of sin, I tend to question anything written by the apostles as a carryover from their backgound steeped in Jewish law and ot scripture.
I personally do not believe that there is any real difference in "missing the mark" It doesn't matter how you categorize what that failure is. The sin of one is the sins of all.
Your definition of sins of the flesh contains the word lust. So do you think that a physical act can be a sin or is it just the lust to perform it?
The old testament law "was our schoolmaster" is the key to what I am saying about being designed to keep the Jews in line. It was much like how we treat our toddlers so they learn to live without too much danger in the physical world around them.. Don't touch this, don't do that. and then punish them so they wont do it again. The ot laws emphasized the physical world also, not the spiritual. Don't eat this, don't do that. Being stoned means to us a whole different thing than the actual physical stoning in Leviticus.
I hope that helps you understand what I meant by keeping them in line.
Enjoy the movie
feat
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I was wondering if Homosexuals and Lesbians can be delivered from this Lifestyle or if it's God will for them to live this way?
Yes... All "Homosexuals and Lesbians," will be delivered from this Lifestyle. It will happen either during this life time or during the Lake of Fire. It will be brought about via God's Chastening Grace.
In the past I was one of the many that actually thought that "THEY" were evil sinners. I believed that "THEY" had a choice and simply made the wrong one. I actually believed that homosexuality was a sin above sins. What a FOOL I WAS! :-[
Homosexuality is a sin... BUT, I've been given to see that it is no more a sin than any other sin. Yes, it IS a "sexual sin"... :o Just like the lusting (sexual) sin I commited when I looked at many women. Just like when I..... (You get the picture.)
Hmmm.... Where does that put me? No less a sinner... A sexual sinner at that!!! Guilty of 1 = Guilty of ALL. :'(
I began to wonder, "Why do THEY have those desires?" I couldn't imagine having them... But thankfully I can see now...
IF I was born with the same gifts... (Both negative and positive)
IF I was born into the same environment... (Time, parents, siblings, friends, school, etc.)
IF I was in the same situations...
I WOULD BE A HOMOSEXUAL, too. I was created marred, too.
Why do hetrosexuals seem so interested in pointing out the homosexuals' sin?
My belief, at this point, is that hetrosexuals believe that the sin of homosexuality is the ONE sin they can claim the never commited. "Yep... I may have commited every other sin there is, but I didn't do that one. No Siree... Not ME!" So that must make it worse. Right? And of course its my job to point this out to everyone. (Point out those HOMOs so that nobody notices my own sins is more like it.)
Sin is Sin... Thankfully, God's Chastening Grace fits all sizes, shapes, and colors.
Ward
Amen to that, Ward.
Don't know what is worse, a homo, a homophobic, or one making fun of them both. ???
We are all sinners and not deserving to what has been given to us. God is truly forgiving, full of mercy and love. We are just a bunch of dumb a-s-s-e-s-s, who can't see the whole purpose.
Judge, judge, judge, never could understand how a sinner can condemn another sinner.
God bless,
Gary
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WARD
Why do hetrosexuals seem so interested in pointing out the homosexuals' sin?
My belief, at this point, is that hetrosexuals believe that the sin of homosexuality is the ONE sin they can claim the never commited. "Yep... I may have commited every other sin there is, but I didn't do that one. No Siree... Not ME!" So that must make it worse. Right? And of course its my job to point this out to everyone. (Point out those HOMOs so that nobody notices my own sins is more like it.)
I have a question for you. What exactly is 'the sin' of homosexuality? Is it committing a homosexual act? If that is 'the sin' then I must confess that I committed it...have you? I hope no one here thinks I'm judging them as a 'worse sinner', because I truly don't believe that and am not trying to give that impression. I do feel like they are more lost though. Not so lost that the Shepherd won't eventually find them and allow them to willingly bow the knee mind you. But more lost in this age...just like some of us are "saved" to a greater degree in this age...according to scripture. So if some are saved to a greater degree, then I am admittedly as_uming (sic) that some are 'lost' to a greater degree. Is that because of a "sin unto death" in this age only? That's the question I am asking based upon the following scripture. Which no one has addressed yet.
1JO 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
What's your take on this verse Ward?
FEAT
I will repeat my statement from the last post: If you can find anywhere in the new testament where there is a quote from Christ about gravity then perhaps my pov about the ot laws may need revising. When looking at the topic of sin, I tend to question anything written by the apostles as a carryover from their backgound steeped in Jewish law and ot scripture.
You're right...I couldn't find a verse saying 'that' anywhere, from Christ. Couldn't find one with Him telling me to not beat my wife either...dang she's gonna hate getting beat from now on.....I'm sure you see my point. :D I will be honest though and admit that what you're doing with 1 John though, bothers me. My bible says "all scripture is inspired by God". Do you believe you/we hear God better than they did? Are we really devoid of the 'steeping' we've received from 1000 years of Catholicism from the dark ages? How many here are even more than 'just a few years' out, from the 'stain of influence' that truths taught here at BT sets one free from? I truly wonder.
I personally do not believe that there is any real difference in "missing the mark" It doesn't matter how you categorize what that failure is. The sin of one is the sins of all.
I would agree as far as 'life in the hereafter' is concerned, but would not agree as far a' life in this age' though.
Your definition of sins of the flesh contains the word lust. So do you think that a physical act can be a sin or is it just the lust to perform it?
If it was just 'the lust to perform it' then Christ would be a sinner. For scripture says:
HEB 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
The old testament law "was our schoolmaster" is the key to what I am saying about being designed to keep the Jews in line. It was much like how we treat our toddlers so they learn to live without too much danger in the physical world around them.. Don't touch this, don't do that. and then punish them so they wont do it again. The ot laws emphasized the physical world also, not the spiritual. Don't eat this, don't do that. Being stoned means to us a whole different thing than the actual physical stoning in Leviticus.
I guess I feel like I'm still under the law in any area where I'm not submitted to Christ. And if I don't submit to Christ in those areas when convicted by the Spirit...then I will reap the judgment that comes with those areas where I'm still a 'toddler' in my thinking.
Your sure right about 'being stoned' meaning something different. I was a hippie when 'called' of God and given the faith to believe. For years I told guys I spilled more good pot than they'd ever smoked (Viet Nam had its HIGH points).
The movie was good, Mama (my wife) and I both enjoyed it. I also enjoyed the 5 dollar bag of popcorn...what a rip though. :(
FREE
In the past I was one of the many that actually thought that "THEY" were evil sinners. I believed that "THEY" had a choice and simply made the wrong one. I actually believed that homosexuality was a sin above sins.
For the record, I think WE were/are evil sinners. At least I don't know anyone who's made IT yet in overcoming sin totally. I agree with you that they had a CHOICE and made the wrong one. Just like I had a choice after my homosexual sin. I believe that I chose not to do it again. But I'm still not sure about sexual sins not being worse. Not just homosexual sin but all sexual sins. I say that because of the following scripture.
1CO 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
Why doesn't it just say FLEE SIN? Why the distinction about 'without/outside the body' versus 'sinning against his own body'. What do you do with this verse.
It's late and I've got an early bike ride with a Baptist bro. Nite all.
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Hello light seeker,
There is more than one scripture that commands us not to "beat" a wife or any other human being.
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [It is evil to hit another]...
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
There is nothing in the scriptures that indicates we makes "choices" free and independent from our creator.
It is God that shows mercy upon whom he will show mercy, and hardens whom he will harden.
Homosexuality is no different than any other sin that must be repented of. God willing He will grant unto all repentence.
"We are given repentance" [acts 5:31]
"God Granted repentance" [acts 11:18]
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
All good things come from God, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. [Jer 10:23]
This however is just "temporary" For when thy judgements are in the earth the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.[isa 26:9]
Chris R
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FEAT
I will repeat my statement from the last post: If you can find anywhere in the new testament where there is a quote from Christ about gravity then perhaps my pov about the ot laws may need revising. When looking at the topic of sin, I tend to question anything written by the apostles as a carryover from their backgound steeped in Jewish law and ot scripture.
You're right...I couldn't find a verse saying 'that' anywhere, from Christ. Couldn't find one with Him telling me to not beat my wife either...dang she's gonna hate getting beat from now on.....I'm sure you see my point. :D I will be honest though and admit that what you're doing with 1 John though, bothers me. My bible says "all scripture is inspired by God". Do you believe you/we hear God better than they did? Are we really devoid of the 'steeping' we've received from 1000 years of Catholicism from the dark ages? How many here are even more than 'just a few years' out, from the 'stain of influence' that truths taught here at BT sets one free from? I truly wonder.
Hello Lightseeker.
I am not sure what I am "doing to 1John" that bothers you. Going with the thought that all scripture is inspired by God, how do you compare your reaction with regard to sin, to the law and it's administration in Leviticus with 1John. If you say that there is no difference in how you view them in terms of the nature and gravity of what is a sin then I think I understand.
As I said, when it comes to a discussion of sin, I gravitate to Christ's words rather than his apostles. Christ gave us two main commandments to love God and our neighbor as our selves. The understanding is that if we love our neighbor we would not do things that are hurtful to them. This encompasses things like beating your wife, lying , cheating, stealing, adultery, etc. Christ also mentions the ten commandments as examples of ways that we can do harm to others. In my view, the apostles have elaborated on sins and have structured them much like the ot in terms of graviity and onerousness. That's why I said that when it comes to the apostles discussing sin, I tend to question what they are saying in terms of gravity because I think they tend to carry forward an old testament point of view on gravity whereas, I have not seen that in anything quoted from Christ.
I think Chris has done an excellent job of answering your other questions. If I missed a point please respond.
feat
ps I haven't bought popcorn in a theater since then started brining in giant bags of that stale crap instead of popping it fresh on site. Five bucks huh. :o
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I hope this doesn't side track this thread too much, but here is my two cents on what the sin unto death is.
Sin unto death for me, in simple terms; is to deny Christ (after being given the spirit by faith) by going back to the law.
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away (for me, to revert back to law) , to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (for me, this is the sin unto death)
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
by faith, we won't sin willfully,
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
All sin is forgiven, if living by faith, if the light is shining in us. If we have the light, we see our sin, and confess it.
If we revert back to living by the law, we see no need for Christ, we are blinded by the law, and no longer see our sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
We will confess our sins, if by faith, Christ lives in us, by His Light, in us. We are in need of a doctor, we see our sickness.
1Jo 5:4 because every one who is begotten of God doth overcome the world, and this is the victory that did overcome the world--our faith;
1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Believing in Him, to me means we believe he is the only way to forgive sins. We rely on him to do this.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? (this to me is the sin unto death)
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
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CHRIS,
There is nothing in the scriptures that indicates we makes "choices" free and independent from our creator.
As I've studied and read what Ray teaches concerning this I've ended up in a unusual position. I see the scriptures which point to no free will as pertaining to 1. matters of state and 2. being birthed into the family of God. Number 2. is consistant with nature and our own earthly families. Which of us 'decided' to be born of our mother and father? But after birth/rebirth...physical and spiritual I see scripture giving me more choice than seems to be 'generally' believed here at BT.
It is God that shows mercy upon whom he will show mercy, and hardens whom he will harden.
Amen to that. The sun that melts butter also bakes the clay. Whether I'm butter or clay matters not. What does matter is the attitude of my heart...am I melting willingly or am I whining about not being put back in the fridge. 8) It's a big concept to wrap ones mind around.
HARRY,
I am not sure what I am "doing to 1John" that bothers you.
Maybe I wasn't clear. It wasn't really your view of 1 John, it was your discounting the writings of the disciples (John of 1Joh) and giving more weight to the OT authors and Jesus. I guess for me the OT authors are equal with the NT authors. As far as your emphasis on the words of Jesus...He never wrote anything in scripture...you are still totally dependent upon 'inspiration' from God concerning scripture written by the apostles...aren't you?
Going with the thought that all scripture is inspired by God, how do you compare your reaction with regard to sin, to the law and it's administration in Leviticus with 1John. If you say that there is no difference in how you view them in terms of the nature and gravity of what is a sin then I think I understand.
OK here I go on a limb. The Name/nature of God of the OT changed. It was different for Abraham Issac and Jacob than it was for Moses and those 'under the law'. That change took place with the law.
EXO 6:2 And God said to Moses, "I am the LORD. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them.
There was a change in religion and priests with the name of Jehovah and His law. No longer could people get away with things like Abraham did with his wife which would have deserved death 'under the law'. No longer was Melchizadec the priest...but Aaron and his sons. When Jesus came there once again was a change of religion, priesthood and name of God which we call upon (all appologies to the JW's). Anyway Leviticus/law and Jehovah dealt with sin with judgment...but mercy and truth came with Jesus ("neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more") I hope this brief POV which is so much deeper than I'm able to relay, helps to answer your question.
WARD
Have I committed this sin? Regrettably, yes... I haven't physically done it, but the sin was still there.
I would have to disagree for the reason stated earlier. If the thought is a sin then Jesus was a sinner because He: was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
JAM 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
If you never committed the act you never sinned. You merely were tempted at the level of lusting to commit the act. And if you didn't commit the sin then you aren't judged with death in whatever area that sin affects.
GEN 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it."
Sounds to me like you never let the sin master you because you didn't do it. You only 'thought' about doing it and that's not a sin...it's a transgression.
The sin(s) mentioned aren't specific or special. (If they are, I sure can't find them listed in the scriptures. Clue me in if you have.)
No I don't guess I have found them either, and that's why I'm asking questions here too.
By the way... Thanks for asking me. You made me think about this more than I ever have before and that's a good thing.
I hope that what's been given to me to share is helpfull. And please forgive any newbie mistakes. These are my very first posts ever.
Thank you Ward, I love being told I've made people think. I've been told that many times by brethren in my church. A place where I must ask questions which demand an answer (from those with eyes/ears) which shows traditional christianity is wrong...IMO. Many come to me later seeking deeper understanding than they presently walk in.
BTW welcome to BT and I haven't noticed a newbie mistake myself. ;)
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CHRIS,
There is nothing in the scriptures that indicates we makes "choices" free and independent from our creator.
As I've studied and read what Ray teaches concerning this I've ended up in a unusual position. I see the scriptures which point to no free will as pertaining to 1. matters of state and 2. being birthed into the family of God. Number 2. is consistant with nature and our own earthly families. Which of us 'decided' to be born of our mother and father? But after birth/rebirth...physical and spiritual I see scripture giving me more choice than seems to be 'generally' believed here at BT.
It is God that shows mercy upon whom he will show mercy, and hardens whom he will harden.
Amen to that. The sun that melts butter also bakes the clay. Whether I'm butter or clay matters not. What does matter is the attitude of my heart...am I melting willingly or am I whining about not being put back in the fridge. 8) It's a big concept to wrap ones mind around.
Hello Light,
I'm really not sure which scripture your speaking of that gives us "more" choices? We choose to do things every day, thousands of choices are made by each of us, None of these choices are "free" from cicumstances that cause us to do one thing or another.
And since God is the cause of all things, He is in complete control of everything. right down to the hairs on our head, it is mans inability to see the true soverign nature of God That allows men to beleive they have "limited" free will or choice. I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. [Jer 10:23]
To beleive that we can change Gods plan, is to set ourselves up as gods, this decidedly cannot be true, God is either in control, or the world is running in total chaos.
Peace
Chris R.
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I would have to disagree for the reason stated earlier. If the thought is a sin then Jesus was a sinner because He: was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
JAM 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Light,
Chris gave very good answers. I can tell you are a very thoughtful and truth seeking person. It is good you ask questions and continue to question until your mind is satisfied. I am like this myself. If you are at this place in your questions, then read, study and pray about what Ray says about free will, several times and then a few more. That was the concept that was the most difficult for me to get my head around, I think because that is when the beast truely begins to die, and he doesn't go easily.
You will be alone on this journey, as it take much time, effort, and prayer to understand the deeper things of God and it will be a journey without end in this lifetime. The forum should be a place to fellowship with like minded believers but don't expect to find allot of the answers you are seeking because even though many here are good people very few are teachers. This is between you and God.
Concerning Jesus and sin. Yes he was tempted, but the temptation didn't become lust. And lust is the root of sin.
Blessings!
Craig
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Usually lost in the "debate" about homosexuality is the lowered life expectancy of gay men, research has suggested it is about 46 to 50 years or as much as 20 years less than their straight or celebate brothers.
I am not one to preach guilt or damnation to anyone, I count myself very fortunate to being forgiven of the terrible things I have done in my life, I don't believe in offering my opinion or thoughts to a gay person unless they specifically ask me a question in regard to their lifestyle, otherwise I treat them as I would anyone else. However if a militant gay is promoting this as being "equal but just a different" lifestyle I do feel obligated to point out the error of that statement.
All of us are predisposed to some sort of sin(s) anger, thievery, lying, lustfullness of any type, violence, etc. some of us have a weakness for intoxicants/drugs that can hurt loved ones or bring about an early demise. Just because we may like to say we were born with this deficiency are we to ignore the sinfullness of it, or not pray to be delivered from it?
A couple links on gay life expectancy, do your own research if you care to, this information is readily available if you look but it is too politically incorrect for the mass media to deal with;
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jun/05060606.html
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2005/bates060805.htm
Again, I do not believe it is ok to bash or condemn any brother or sister but with that being said I won't be a party to spreading or condoning a lie that can hurt or destroy people.
Joe
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Hello Joe,
I am not saying there is no relevance to an expected shorter life span for a single gay person. The truth is that single males no matter what sexual preference have a shorter life expectancy from studies supporting life tables used for insurance purposes. I would be more inclined to be less skeptical of the study you cited if it were performed by life insurance actuaries rather than a pro family man that might or might not have an agenda. The study kind of reminds me of those ads with clinical studies confirming that pills for breast and penis enlargment pills really work.
There is no doubt that lifestyle can seriously affect one's life expectancy. According to several sources on the internet, If you are a heavy drinker or smoker you can expect to reduce your life expectancy by fifteen or more years. If you are obese and don't exercise you also significantly reduce your life expectancy. Just look up the words "life expectancy" on your browser and see for yourself.
If you go to the following website you can also play the longevity game which shows the effects of some of these things: http://www.nmfn.com/tn/learnctr--lifeevents--longevity
I don't know what relevance any of this has to do with the topic of the thread. Maybe we can all pray that we can be delivered from a lifestyle that shortens our lives and that will brings us closer to spiritual life in Christ.
feat
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CHRIS
I know this is off topic so I'll try not to elaborate.
I'm really not sure which scripture your speaking of that gives us "more" choices? We choose to do things every day, thousands of choices are made by each of us, None of these choices are "free" from cicumstances that cause us to do one thing or another.
I'm talking about all the scriptures which give us the choice to 'sin' or 'not sin'. I understand not being a 'Free moral agent' and that we truly are, at least partially, a product of our enviornment which we don't totally control. I'm just saying God is not the only influence HE has allowed to operate in our lives. What choice I make in every situation is dependent upon how much I have conformed to the mind of Christ IMO. God allows Satan (God's created tool IMO) to test us, but as in Job's case He never said what the Satan could do to Job. He only said how far he couldn't go. Which is consistant with scripture
1CO 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Is God tempting us here?...no! Is He giving us a choice we can't escape from because of no 'will' or no 'way'? I don't see that either.
So did God 'rob, kill, and destroy' those in the story of Job...or did Satan? I think Satan did. Did God force Satan to do what he did? I don't think so. So God isn't micromanaging every minute detail of creation making robots of all. But He is soverignly channeling all things in the direction He desires for us to go. That's just how I see it at this point in my walk. Not wanting to be controversial here or cause a problem. I'm not a homo phobe or a free will phobe. Whether I think I have, or don't have free will doesn't change anything for me/us in the grand scheme of things...does it?
I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. [Jer 10:23]
I totally agree it's not from within. It's from without...in the realm of influence where there is "the God of this world" and 'the God of this universe'. I can't change my course which is directed by choices made in the past...even though I'll end up at the same goal intended of God from the beginning. But I can control my response to those 'trials, testings' which will influence how God has to deal with me in the future...I believe. This controls total "chaos" but eliminates "total control" while never changing God's ultimate goal. This view supports Theism and refutes Deism.
JOH 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
No mention of 'but you don't have any choice in the matter as to whether you sin or not because God's totally controlling you'. Oh well enough of that here.
JOE
Just because we may like to say we were born with this deficiency are we to ignore the sinfullness of it, or not pray to be delivered from it?
Amen and a point that is at issue here I think, for Harry's friends.
FEAT
I don't know what relevance any of this has to do with the topic of the thread. Maybe we can all pray that we can be delivered from a lifestyle that shortens our lives and that will brings us closer to spiritual life in Christ.
Pray...yes. But also be open to witnessing life into a death situation in this age (whatever it is). One of the complaints against reconcilliation is that we won't witness. I retort, "I witness when I feel led of the Spirit to do so"....OK, OK sometimes I disobey and don't. :'( But at least my witness is from the pure motive of a love relationship to God and not a mechanical churchianity motivation IMO. God is going to move through preaching the word...according to scripture. And if we're inclined not to preach then He must call upon someone else too. At least that's how I think of things today...might change tomorrow.
Gotta go guys.
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Hi feat,
I only cited 2 examples but did invite anyone who has an interest to do their own research as there is much material available, I remember reading years ago about homosexuals and IV drug users having about the same rates of infections, immune system deficiencies and life expectancy.
There are extreme positions by "pro family" to be sure, as there are with the "pro gay." I for one do not have the same faith in the Insurance Companies as being beacons of truth, they must consider the negative effects any stance that could be perceived as bigoted would have on their liability and/or their image, it is easier to simply raise the premiums on all people. I have seen how these Insurance Companies raise everyones Auto rates to cover uninsured, unlicensed drivers, careless drivers and raise the insurance rates for all Floridians to cover the losses they paid in the coastal regions. Their motivation is strictly bottom line.
Since it has become politically correct to promote this lifestyle anyone who points to scripture or medical evidence to question the wisdom of this sociological change is in danger of being branded "homophobic" or a "bigot" with the more "enlightened" among us denying what is obvious, exchanging body fluids with multiple partners (gay or straight) & strangers is risky business. I do not want to get too graphic but any Doctor without political bias or an agenda will tell you the anus was not intended to be a vagina nor can it be converted into one, the health risks are plentiful and the immune system will be compromised. That is the physical aspect, the spiritual aspect is that we will not grow in His Spirit if we hold on to the lusts of the flesh, in any form or manner.
If one wants to believe that this is a healthy lifestyle (physically or spiritually) with no difference to a man/woman marriage nothing anyone says or writes is going to change their minds, but if the question is raised honestly we should throw out the world's ever changing temporal answers and respond with what has been written for our admonition and edification.
We should seek the spiritual strength to resist sin in all forms and pray for those who have yet to have their eyes opened, to hate the sin but love the sinner. Our desire should not be to justify sin but to prayerfully seek deliverence from it.
Joe
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But also be open to witnessing life into a death situation in this age (whatever it is). One of the complaints against reconcilliation is that we won't witness. I retort, "I witness when I feel led of the Spirit to do so"....OK, OK sometimes I disobey and don't. :'( But at least my witness is from the pure motive of a love relationship to God and not a mechanical churchianity motivation IMO. God is going to move through preaching the word...according to scripture. And if we're inclined not to preach then He must call upon someone else too. At least that's how I think of things today...might change tomorrow.
Gotta go guys.
By witnessing what exactly do you mean, do you mean preaching? Also I don 't understand what you mean by witnessing life into a death situation in this age. ??? ??? ??? ??? I am totally lost in understanding it.
Perhaps this should start another thread but it seems to fit somewhat here. The same sex couple that I know do not truly believe they are living in a sinful relationship. Are we supposed to preach to them that they are sinners and should get [for lack of a better term]"divorced"? They are as much a couple as my wife and I are. I don't see that as a viable alternative. At what point does witnessing, whatever that means to you, become judgemental and divisive to those who don't believe as you do?
feat
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Hi feat,
I only cited 2 examples but did invite anyone who has an interest to do their own research as there is much material available, I remember reading years ago about homosexuals and IV drug users having about the same rates of infections, immune system deficiencies and life expectancy.
There are extreme positions by "pro family" to be sure, as there are with the "pro gay." I for one do not have the same faith in the Insurance Companies as being beacons of truth, they must consider the negative effects any stance that could be perceived as bigoted would have on their liability and/or their image, it is easier to simply raise the premiums on all people. I have seen how these Insurance Companies raise everyones Auto rates to cover uninsured, unlicensed drivers, careless drivers and raise the insurance rates for all Floridians to cover the losses they paid in the coastal regions. Their motivation is strictly bottom line.
We should seek the spiritual strength to resist sin in all forms and pray for those who have yet to have their eyes opened, to hate the sin but love the sinner. Our desire should not be to justify sin but to prayerfully seek deliverence from it.
Joe
Hi Joe,
Your point is well taken about insurance companies having the agenda of making money. We at least have some semblence of purpose on their part. Not always strictly monetary motivation but almost certainly part of their decision process. Usually their studies are better documented and scientifically prepared for fear of legal suit. As you say, however, taking anything at face value can be risky.
[I wasn't sure you realized that both the cites you made quoting a shorter life span seem to be about the same pro family man and his study, one just seems less supportive and more cautionary than the other.]
Aside from same sex, I don't even know what the gay lifestyle is other than stereotypes. The same sex couple I know are very conservative. As far as I know from observation and what they have told me, they don't do drugs, don't cheat on each other, believe in God, have read the bible, believe we have limited free will, one is waffling on the concept of universalism and the other believes in annilhilation of those who are not listed in the book[ per Revelations}. They both left religions/churches that told them they would be going to hell because God made them queer. The both believe and try to hold to Christ's commandments of love. They are both kind and helpful and seem to practice the concept of "doing unto others" . They believe that GWBush is unfit to lead, fundamentalists are far too influencial in matters of government, church and state should be separate to the extent that churches should pay taxes like every other business.
They seem to be fairly conventional conservatives [with a few exceptions of course]. I have suggested they visit BT and let me know what they think. It is too early for feedback.
Joe said "....if the question is raised honestly we should throw out the world's ever changing temporal answers and respond with what has been written for our admonition and edification......"
I assume by what has been written you mean scripture. If so, we are talking about translation error and interpretation by the carnal mind. If we believe what Christ said about the meaning of what he said being hidden from the masses then I see why we have so many religions and differences of opinion. I have been beaten down with bible verses about going to hell and that I am a sinner so many times that even when people ask my opinion, I qualify everything with its what I believe not necessarily what God will finally reveal to us all.
IF I stick to the doctrine of Christ and his commandments of love then i don't think I will go wrong. I actually feel like I am being judgemental when I tell someone that I think what they are doing is sinful, so I try not to.
Thanks for the additional input
feat
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Hello feat,
I certainly do not condone getting into someone's face to call them an evil sinner doomed to destruction, if someone asks me what I believe in regard to any habit or lifestyle I will answer them as best I can, with scriptural backing as my foundation.
Through the years I have worked with and have had neighbors who were homosexual and it usually never entered our conversation, they would not volunteer what they did in the privacy of their home and neither would I, many of these people were dependable, friendly and unassuming folks who I enjoyed having the opportunity of working with or living near. Even when I was totally living in the world I was basically (for the most part) a "live and let live" kind of person.
As my eyes have begun to open to His purpose and plan I see all of us as being in the same flawed condition, not with the same weaknesses but weak just the same. I must forgive if I want forgiveness and I must love all my bothers and sisters because a heavy price has been paid for all of us. My feeling is that we should not justify sinfulness in any form but seek deliverence from it, none of us give up our carnal nature easily, in fact it is impossible without His Spirit. I do not look to confront anyone on what they think or do but if a honest question arises I will give the most honest answer I can possibly give.
Peace to you Brother,
Joe
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Are you sure we don't live near the same couple? :D :D
It's basically the same on my street. Live and let live.
feat
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HARRY
By witnessing what exactly do you mean, do you mean preaching?
[RSV] ROM 10:17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.
KJV says "word" where RSV says "preaching". I prefer RSV because the Greek word for "word" in this verse is Rhema and not Logos, and a Rhema is a spoken word. The big idea is you have to be 'talked' to concerning the gospel/good news. Whose job is it to do that talking?
Also I don 't understand what you mean by witnessing life into a death situation in this age.
I think that the 'unchanging nature of Jesus' and the 'unshakable kingdom of God' are both necessary to bring one from death unto life in this age. This isn't a one time deal IMO. We must overcome in many areas of our life. To be an "overcomer" and "inherit the promises" of this age requires both 'knowing the truth' and 'walking in the truth'. Hope that helps.
The same sex couple that I know do not truly believe they are living in a sinful relationship.
I guess at this point I'm not concerned with them Harry...do you believe it's sinful.
Are we supposed to preach to them that they are sinners and should get [for lack of a better term]"divorced"?
I don't believe that your idea of preaching is biblical...it's traditional/fundamental...which is fundamentally wrong IMO. What 'good news' is there is telling someone they're a sinner? None IMO. Tell them to "get divorced" What for, so they can live in hell here and now, in that area of their life, for the rest of their lives? I don't care about the 'here after' for them, I care about the kingdom of God for them here and now...that was the gospel of Jesus. Anything we don't accomplish in obedience for God this side of "eternity" He will take care of in the next age/s to come IMO.
1CO 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
It's not our call to 'make' them believe, but it is our 'part' to preach/teach/talk...the truth IMO.
They are as much a couple as my wife and I are. I don't see that as a viable alternative. At what point does witnessing, whatever that means to you, become judgemental and divisive to those who don't believe as you do?
When you become part of their problem instead of part of their answer. When it's you who is offending them and not 'the truth' that's offensive to them. No one can give you a black and white line here. You must be led of the Sspirit to minister seeds of truth into their soul. The growth must come from God.
Feat, it sounds to me like you truly have a 'right heart' for them, and that's good and admirable. But it sounds to me like you believe that they're really at peace in this relationship...I don't, not deep down. And it also sounds like you really don't believe it is a 'sinful relationship'...while I do.
Thoughts?