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=> Testimonies / Prayer Requests / Fellowship => Topic started by: Deborah-Leigh on October 20, 2010, 01:09:58 PM
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Rom 12:19 not avenging yourselves, beloved, but giving place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
I wish I could do this! God has given me the desire to give place to wrath but not the accomplishment yet!! That is a huge gift to have the desire given from God, I realise yet look how tough the circumstances through which that gift is made visible!.... :'(
A Cop who fancies himself to be a Pastor and has tried to recruit my husband and I to his Cell group, got together to trap my helper in my shop. They sent a person to buy biltong who asked for an additional payment slip. My helper unwittingly gave him what he wanted. The Cop who has tried to recruit me to his Church, came to my shop to slander my helper telling me he was stealing. :o >:(
My helper had already informed me of the incident and so I called him out and told the Cop that what had happened was entrapment and slander. He said he was only trying to help me and I replied that God watches over me and that He provides. Why didn’t I just give place to wrath and smile sweetly!!!...and look right through him…God sent this experience to me and I have a hard time keeping quiet…well…as you know! I feel infuriated with the encounter of what I know God finds abominable
Pro 6:18 a heart that plots wicked plans, feet hurrying to run to evil,
Pro 6:19 a false witness who speaks lies, and he who causes fighting among brothers.
The Blessing is to endure and to make me depend even more on God……and God is giving me His Spirit to endure even as I feel the heat of God’s consuming fire in me! times can be hard right?...when we are doing our best and we don't know how....smiling when we are close to tears...and thankfully enduring the reciept of the gift from God to DESIRE to obey, believe and joy in that accomplishment only He can give!
I feel better already...poor Cop....I need to pray for him...
So what’s God been up to in your life lately?
Blessings
Arc
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Wow
you said it! I think you spoke for most of us when you talk about the difference between the desire to do what is required and the actual accomplishment of it! IMO, the hardest thing I can do to keep quiet or smile sweetly or to LOVE someone while they are cheating, lying or slandering ourself. It is unfair, we cry, inside! I want fairness, and fairness includes wrath and vengeance. But God says vengeance is his, He will repay, and we have to try to attain to that, to give God place, and to love our enemy instead.
Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Honestly, I think these are the hardest teachings in the Bible.
Doug
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Hi Doug
It is great to see you on this thread ~ I appreciate your views.
One can know and serve and serve and know and God can even help me to find the knowldege others are seeking and requiring but LOVE...can I love and help others find LOVE? Nope! THAT'S when it gets really tough when Love comes to visit.
Look....in hind sight and in faith...God knew EXACTLY how I'd respond! HE knew and I repented, looked back, came here and wrote the incident down in quest for edification encouragement and council....God is working it all out and showing me how much needs to be done yet within me. As for the Cop...I truely believe that God caused him too, to do what he thought was right and the fact that he was given a Word of God....SLANDER....to go and think about...I believe caused some Godly influences upon him too. I don't think God can mess up! He knows what He's doing and though I speculate on what He is doing in the other chap...there's no doubt what He is showing me!..and it is nothing to do what He is doing in others....
I am grateful that God is deepening the shallow part of me...I am glad.
I did feel better for praying for him....and in the prayer I was shown that what I pray for him, is returned back to me. That was quite wonderful! I asked God to open his eyes and show him and correct him....well He did that for me ...right back to me....I can see the shortfall within...it hurts.
God knows and above all, God loves...
Blessings to you
Arc
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I agree, Arc, it does hurt to be shown our shortcomings. Blessedly, it never ends now that He's begun His work in us (me). It seems strange that we should look forward to and even ask God for this burning up of our dross, since it is so painful, but we know the end result. Let me just say that I was someone who used to love much and I was hurt much, very much. My fundamenatist Christian grandmother once told me that I was too forgiving...I think I was maybe 10yrs old. Later in life when I faced the hurts of rejection, I remembered what she said and I believed her. I became cold and unfeeling over time, not consciously, but eventually I felt dead...For all intents and purposes I think I was dead! No Love, no Joy, no Peace, NO Hope! How sad that I spent the majority of my life reacting to pain with coldness and even hate. Now I deal with tears, tears, and more tears! Boy, for someone who didn't feel anything for so long, I sure am a baby! But Arc, what wonderful works He's doing! I don't have much. My husband is gone, I have no home of my own (I'm staying with family), and I am not able to get more than about 25-30 hrs a week at work, my health isn't great and I could really use a break sometimes! But I am so very, very, blessed with family that love me, a daughter who loves God and is doing amazing in school and I am blessed to even have a job, so who am I to complain? Lol The biggest blessing is finding the Truth and my Father after being so lost for so long and learning to trust Him to teach me as I go through this life. I really can't think of anywhere I'd rather be in my life than where I am right now. Oh boy, I'm sorry I rambled! I don't post very often because I have felt that I'm here to learn and listen. More and more though, I have wanted to join in so who knows, maybe I will ;)
Peace and Love,
Tammy
p.s. As a side note, I have been also very blessed by so many of the posts lately! It's still amazing to me that in my seeking, I'm still led here over and over again. This forum is my home away from home in a cold dark world and I can't thank God enough for dragging me here repeatedly and providing so much Truth and understanding of His word through Ray and the wonderful people on the forum.
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Tamaralv, enjoyed your post. Sure can relate! I used to cry but my eyes would swell up so bad I gave it up and got angry instead. It sure felt better but temper is not a genuine emotion because underneath is fear and pain.
Then when the temper is released and relief is felt then comes the bigger burden of knowing you didn't use self control and the fact you most likely hurt the other person and when I hurt someone else the pain is worse because I feel it in me. I have managed to hurt myself more than the other person ever could.
It is better to get away from the other person until you can get a handle on it. I have not got this completely down yet as I do believe in standing up for myself but I ususally go too far. I am beginning to realize the other person is extremely unhappy if they lashed out at me.
I can't bear the anger and I can't bear the tears. This subject is a work in progress for me but getting away is about the best I can do now. There is a difference between aggressiveness and assertiveness. Or even why does one have to defend themselves. I have found out when God is allowed to handle the situation the tables get turned by the most interesting circumstances. All I need to do is control my speech muscles. Sounds easy but not! Judy
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Rom 12:19 not avenging yourselves, beloved, but giving place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
I wish I could do this! God has given me the desire to give place to wrath but not the accomplishment yet!! That is a huge gift to have the desire given from God, I realise yet look how tough the circumstances through which that gift is made visible!.... :'(
A Cop who fancies himself to be a Pastor and has tried to recruit my husband and I to his Cell group, got together to trap my helper in my shop. They sent a person to buy biltong who asked for an additional payment slip. My helper unwittingly gave him what he wanted. The Cop who has tried to recruit me to his Church, came to my shop to slander my helper telling me he was stealing. :o >:(
My helper had already informed me of the incident and so I called him out and told the Cop that what had happened was entrapment and slander. He said he was only trying to help me and I replied that God watches over me and that He provides. Why didn’t I just give place to wrath and smile sweetly!!!...and look right through him…God sent this experience to me and I have a hard time keeping quiet…well…as you know! I feel infuriated with the encounter of what I know God finds abominable
Pro 6:18 a heart that plots wicked plans, feet hurrying to run to evil,
Pro 6:19 a false witness who speaks lies, and he who causes fighting among brothers.
The Blessing is to endure and to make me depend even more on God……and God is giving me His Spirit to endure even as I feel the heat of God’s consuming fire in me! times can be hard right?...when we are doing our best and we don't know how....smiling when we are close to tears...and thankfully enduring the reciept of the gift from God to DESIRE to obey, believe and joy in that accomplishment only He can give!
I feel better already...poor Cop....I need to pray for him...
So what’s God been up to in your life lately?
Blessings
Arc
A hard verse to accomplish indeed Deb!
Your not alone when it comes to struggling for its fulfillment in your life. I struggle too.
People will find it strange that when you react to situations like this according to the scriptures.
Thanks for sharing Deborah!
Antaiwan
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Hi Deborah,
Galatians. 5:22,23 " But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, LONGSUFFERING, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, SELF CONTROL, against such things there is no law." (Highlighted traits relate especially to Samson's training). By the way, where do you want me to begin, God's got plenty of Work to perform in Samson's spiritual character, ;D.
Romans. 12:(17-21) indeed, not necessarily returning "Evil for Evil," in action or words, but certainly in thoughts, the desire to take avenge, a struggle in ones thoughts, not having the patience to wait on God to right the wrong received is presently before me. Now, a current Life's example written in the next Paragraph.
Last July 2010, My Ex-Wife called to inform me that My oldest Daughter, She's almost twenty, will no longer be attending College and I should proceed to take steps to terminate the Child Support Order and have Her emancipated. I called the Family Division in order inquire about the necessary steps to be taken in order to proceed. I was told to either prepare a Consent Letter, to be signed by both parties, witnessed, sealed and signed by a Notary or File a Motion with the Court for Termination of said Order. I elected to present a consent Form, proceeded to do so and received a response that it was prepared wrong, etc. Each signature had to be notarized individually and separately. I explained that I wasn't told that and that I'm getting conflicting explanations on how to proceed. Eventually, I even took my Daughter down there with thorough identification, including Her Birth Certificate to have Her emancipate Herself, remember She's almost twenty, at eighteen a person is considered an Adult. They told me, it can't be done this way. So, they gave me a File a Motion Packet for me to fill out, etc, etc, etc. Finally, after figuring who gets copies of What, Who gets Copies Certified, the time frame, I finally filed this Motion this past Monday. Keep in mind, this Motion packet contains 12 pages, costs $30.00 to process, plus the cost of certified copies. Since July, I've actually had to take a break from this endeavor, due to the stress involved. Read, the bottom line in all of this below.
In the U.S. there's an epidemic of Men who don't pay their Child Support. They either end up in Jail, move away to States that are very lenient or move away, so as not to be found. I know of a Relative that owed over $100,000.00 in Child Support Arrears and a local jurisdiction told Him, He didn't have to pay anymore, because all the Children were over 30 years old. They told His Ex-Wife, to just get over it. Boy, do I despise Double Standards. Here I am, paying like I'm supposed all these years for Two Daughters(the others Sixteen) and I'm getting these games and all this grief from the Warren County Family Division. That's where Romans. 12:(17-21) enters the equation. To be honest, I ain't too thrilled with the instructions at Romans. 13:(1-5) either.
Now, I know that some of might respond with this: James. 1:2-4 " Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you meet with various trials, knowing as you do that this tested faith works out endurance, But let your endurance have it's work complete, that you may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything." Comment: Ain't no Joy when going through it, but only after the fact. None of us enjoy these trials while going through them, only after the fact. I guess that " A World dominated by Double Standards" is a World of learning Contrasts, the Good and the Evil. I'm a learning, but it ain't pleasant.
Great Thread Deb, Samson.
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I hear you! Tammy, Judy, Antaiwan (thanks for the encouragement) and Samson.
Yea, we have to go through it all. I think the goofiest things about it all is that for some stupid, pride filled error in thinking, it seems that we are the only one who is stupid, flawed and fragile when in fact everyone is. The difference is they are covering it up better than we can as we break apart and fall into that heap where there is no soul in sight to help out and Psalm 107 we cry to God….We have to go through THAT! We have to be the goliath and get our ballet right between our eyes with a name on only we can know before our own heads are cut off with our own swords! We have to be the least in the Kingdom and go through the doubts, the prison of our souls and then get our heads cut off so all our head knowledge is severed from our bodies….and then we leave earth on a pole with no arms legs nothing and we get to see the world through our dead eyes opened for the first time in jaw dropping amazement that has no voice box anymore. Our heads served up on a silver platter to a king who has given a harlot daughter her wish. It is a macabre, ghoulish, grizzly and chilling thing to be experiencing even a fraction of what Jesus Christ suffered. I don’t think there is one type of pain that is not and cannot be traced back to something our Lord endured, despised and suffered. That too is a stupid, pride filled error to think that pain is different from anything God has suffered first before us. God knows everything and you know what, it is easy to write it, but to believe it…that requires God to deliver when suffering becomes a source of rejoicing, realizing that any suffering we endure is not fit to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in those who are given to "endure to the end".
Blessings
Arc
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Back to you double, GodISGracious........
Blessings
Arc
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Awesome thread Arc, and very timely. Thank you.
Totally identify with all replies, thanks guys.
Grape
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Can you match that beautiful testimony to someone in the Bible, do you think Janine?
Awesome thread Arc, and very timely. Thank you.
Totally identify with all replies, thanks guys.
Grape
I am glad you think so Grape!
As You say, Grape, Quote The meaning of a communication is the response it receives. No matter what we intend to communicate, words can be treacherously clumsy and sometimes downright inadequate. The meaning is in the ear; not in the tongue. Or has God said in vain, " Let he who has an ear, hear..........."? Ref : http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12374.msg108233.html#msg108233
Two years ago Dave in Tenn opened a Thread titled : Who's "You" in the Bible?
Dave asked : Is there a person in the Bible that you have encountered that you particularly relate to? Why?
Since ultimately there is no male or female in the Kingdom, if a man relates to Esther or a woman to King David that's OK. ...unquote
I’d like to exercise the lisence to re-direct. I prefer not to open another thread to do this as the re-direction is out of the roots of this thread where I am seeing that my Monstrous spiritual condition relates to my loosing my head as in Goliath and John the Baptist! ...a combo...!blast from the past...
So, to rephrase Dave’s question : Do you relate to someone particular at this time in your spiritual condition, with anyone you know in the Bible. And if not. Do you see someone in your life experiencing the spiritual conditions of a particular character in the Bible. Please share.
I for one, am most grateful that even though I feel like the dark side of Goliath and the beheaded John, AND even so, I am most grateful that I am not that chap who got his eyes gouged out after seeing his sons murdered. 2Ki 25:7 And they killed the sons of Zedekiah before his eyes, and put out the eyes of Zedekiah, and bound him with bronze chains and carried him to Babylon. Jer 52:11 Then he put out the eyes of Zedekiah; and the king of Babylon bound him in chains, and carried him to Babylon, and put him in prison till the day of his death. We might know a few like him. As for all the people I see in my life, I can not see many in the Bible so they are just part of the sea for me.
As Ray says : We can turn wholeheartedly to God and be thankful to know how blessed we are! We are all out of Adam. God frames evil and knows how far it is going. Nothing is out of control. Ref : Last two pages Transcript of a talk about Repentance.
So have you seen yourself in the Bible lately. Or someone you know? Even if it is treacherously clumsy...what can be worse than loosing your head,.,twice in one condition!!
Dave from Tenn...maybe you want to up-date where you were then and where you are now?...
I wonder if there are any men here who might be able to relate to Magdalene :D ;D :D :)
Blessings
Arc
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Magdalene? Yeah, used to be just like her.
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Food for deep thought Arc.
I'll have to get back to y'all on that one!
Hudson, that rocks! ;D
Saw you more as a 'Ripley' ! ;) ;D 8)
Grape
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Joh 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
There are many aspects to any one single life.
Where we are at any one point in our life, can change and God willing it does....who'd want to be the blind guy, stuck in jail, remembering only how his sons were killed before his eyes, until his death? Or to know the suffering of any woman or man to see another traumatised beyond description of pain agony and suffering that is unmerited in our eyes....
Pain is unanimous in us all....the joy that comes in the morning is evidenced too, by the sorrow that precedes the presence of Christ in our lives.
Hudson, we have all done the following. Accepting it is equal to accepting the Word of God in our lives and not rejecting what He says. He knows us better than we know ourselves and to know ourselves we should learn about the personalities in His Word. We are all there! Everything and everyone is there!
Isa 52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.
Blessings
Arc
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Though I tend to joke mostly... In all seriousness though, I am so grateful for the changes God has made in my life. Looking back at where I was and where I am now, even though it's still a work in progress, It's such an amazing difference.
Overall though, as far as which biblical persona I relate with most, I guess it'd have to be Elijah. His struggle with the priests of Baal and trying to get people back to the Truth, seems be playing out in my life currently.
I see that quality in Ray also, as well as in many of you here.
In many ways, we are all together on Mount Carmel.
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I said then, Barnabas. I still think that, but my reasons have matured, maybe. In the accounts in Acts and elsewhere, Barnabas gets top billing in the missionary duo of Barnabas and Paul. Quietly and without explanation, the billing exchanges and it becomes Paul and Barnabas. Eventually, Paul rises to the pre-eminience and Barnabas is scarcely or never mentioned again. If Paul is an example of Christ, then this very much is a picture of our walk of discipleships with Him. He must increase, and I must decrease.
I don't want to create a "Doctrine of Barnabasificationism"--it's just one of those 'whatsoever things are lovely' things that percolates up in my mind sometimes as I look at both scripture and my life.
I can almost feel the excruciating difficulty Paul had in giving his 'testimony'. Some things are just too complex, personal, and difficult to relate in language. But look at how he tries.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
That is pretty much the same as saying 'He must increase and I must decrease'.
Beyond Barnabus, though, I relate to some extent to every 'character' in the Bible when my Spiritual Eyes are working. For me, that's why they are IN the bible, and in whatever ways and to whatever degree their lives and words reveal what's in me--both good and bad--they are the fore-shadow of God's work in me.
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Hi Arc,
I have been following this discussion with interest. I will say in a way that I can relate to Eve... in my church years I did give the fruit of the tree to my family and they did eat.
Then I also relate to Moses, when God called him he did not want to go and said; "Oh Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: for I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue" (Exo 4:10)
But God provided and Moses did go forward to lead the children of Israel. Though Moses was surrounded by a blind bunch of people, kind of like I feel some times with my family and friends. But Moses did have Aaron as someone he could talk to and a helper and I do too in my eldest daughter.
Another thing that I think I relate to is how I feel with the people here... when Mary visited Elizabeth while she was pregnant with Christ.
Luke 1:39 Now Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste, to a city of Judah,
v. 40 and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth.
v. 41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
v. 42 Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
v. 43 But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
v. 44 For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
So often the spirit within me leaps for joy when I read a post and indeed I am filled with the spirit from what I receive from my brothers or sisters here :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Arc and All
Great thread, I can in some respects relate to Mary Magdalene. :)
According to Luke 8: 2 seven devils went out of her, I don't know how many God has delivered me from, but I am a blessed man.
I could be wrong about her, but can anyone show me in the scriptures where it says she was a prostitute?
God says we are to love Him and our neighbors as ourselves, that seems to be where I am at this day and time. Could be the people, or person we are wanting God to swat, God is working a work in their lives the same as us. ??? And I could find myself fighting against God, and missing the point all together.
He is showing me I need to PRAY more, doesn't cost any money, don't have that much any way. :) James 3:17 tells me, "But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. Think I will study the book of James more. :-[ About the tongue.
Joel
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As to your very searching question Arc, I have this to relate:
During my last 5 or so years in Babylon, I was part of a theatre group. My last ‘assignment’ was to play the part of Peter.
I prefer ‘Method’ for this type of role. For those not familiar with this term, briefly , ‘Method’ is a style of learning a part, that is born of the film industry;
due to the nature of how a movie is recorded and edited.
It involves immersing one’s self deep into the character and as much as possible, living the person in your daily life. This sometimes can cause problems within the home and at work! Thankfully, both populations of those arenas already had me down as a nutcase, so the transition was a little easier than it might have been.
The production was a montage/facsimile of the Gospels, set amongst a rural community of peasants in the 19th century, Northern Europe.
I was hoping for the character of Jesus, but thankfully it went to a young man of far greater ability, whom claimed a bravura performance. Therefore during rehearsals, I felt honoured to be playing his Peter.
I thought I’d somewhat ’over egged the custard’ by using Method.
On performance night, I really did feel the weight of Peter’s denial and quite unexpectedly, when Jesus spoke the immortal line, “Do you love me , Peter?”, I folded into a whingeing, gibbering, snotty heap, at His feet and could barely say my lines!
Two people came to me afterwards and thanked me for “an earthy performance” ! However, I was still in ‘Peter’ mode.
I remember this ‘Peter’ replying. “That wasn’t a performance!”
I’m not sure, to this day, if they had a clue as to why I’d said it.
Strangely, Peter took a long time to work off, so strong is his person.
Today, there is still a little more than a remnant of him.
So in answer to your question Arc, in a word; Peter.
Grape
( I really struggled to compose this without sounding boastful. I’m not sure I achieved that, so my humble apologies.)
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Reading through all of your intimate experiences with the Spirit of God, working personally in your lives, shares with others to see how clearly God works with each of us in most personal and individual ways. I could not imagine the diversity, yet here it is contained in but a handful of replies.
If you had to ask me to describe how God works in the body of His Spirit He appoints to each of us, I can now see such different works He engineers with integral rarity of His gifts appointed to each of us. This thread that reaches back two years ago through a question Dave presented, contains yet again, the evidence our Father brings to us to show He is not far off, remote or distant to any single event or experience we are appointed to live. The beauty contained in each of your testimonies of how God is personally creating in each of you the myriad blessings that come from Him testifies to the detail God observes in His dealings with each of us. Which gift of God’s work is more gorgeous is like asking, which color in the rainbow is more beautiful? Each are magnificent and when they stand together, they represent a promise of our God as His Bow etched in the stormy skies of our lives and experiences.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Blessings
Arc
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I could be wrong about her, but can anyone show me in the scriptures where it says she was a prostitute?
If I remember correctly it's one of the biggest "mistake" in the history of Church. There is talking about casting demons out of her by Christ, but nothing about prostitution.
According to Wikipedia:
Few characters in the New Testament have been so sorely miscast as Mary Magdalene, whose reputation as a fallen woman originated not in the Bible but in a sixth-century sermon by Pope Gregory the Great. Not only is she misidentified as the repentant fallen prostitute of legend, meditating and levitating in a cave, but she was not necessarily even a notable sinner: Being possessed by "seven demons" that were exorcised by Jesus, she was arguably more victim than sinner. And the idea, popularized by The Da Vinci Code, that Mary was Jesus' wife and bore his child, while not totally disprovable, is the longest of long shots.
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Hi Dawidos!
It's great to hear from you bro, I've missed you.
Glad to see you online again. :)
Thanks for that important post about Mary Magdalene. That makes such a difference to history and the ripple effect on popular culture.
I've often wondered about that, so thanks for the excerpt from Wiki. 8)
Do you identify with a particular character from scripture?
I'd be keen to know !
Thanks again Brother
Every Blessing
Grape
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Grapehound, God bless you for your warm welcome :). I had problems with my password but masterful Craig has fixed everything, and now I can be online again :). Anyway, thank you for your kind words.
Back to Mary Magdalene, I think the Roman Catholic Church is the only big christian denonimation who holds still its conviction that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute. She is often misidentified with the woman who washed Jesus's feet.
Scripture:
Luk 7:37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,
Luk 7:38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
Luk 7:39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.
Luk 7:40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
Luk 7:41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
Luk 7:42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
Luk 7:43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
Luk 7:44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
Luk 7:45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
Luk 7:46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
Luk 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
Luk 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
Luk 7:49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Comment (not mine, some kind of expert)
It is not Mary (the sister of Martha and Lazarus) because although it is similar to the events in Matthew 26:6-13 where Mary (the sister of Martha and Lazarus) annointed Jesus, that was in Bethany and the " woman... who was a sinner" in Luke 7 was in Galilee. It is very unlikely that it was Mary Magdalene either because she was mentioned by name only three verses later in Luke 8:3 and Luke, the careful historian, doesn't add anything to identify or explain her such as "Mary Magdalene, who washed Jesus feet in Simon's house"; also, although she had demons cast out of her there is no evidence Mary Magdalene was a prostitute.
By the way, casting demons may be taken literally, but it may be a metaphor as well - meaning "healing from illness". For me illness is like a demon :D :D Believe me, when I was ill, I often asked God to cast this demon out of me :D
Do I identify with any character from the Bible? Hmm, difficult question. My name is David, so I'm close to King David rather not by my ruling abilities but sinful nature. I don't know if there is any ex-atheist in the Bible, but taking into consideration my faith struggle maybe I'm linked in some way to Thomas the Apostle, also called Doubting Thomas. I don't know. What do you think?
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Excellent research Dawidos! ….and what a s-w-e-e-t little puppy of Janine's….welcome back brother! :)
Arc
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Thank you Arc for your opinion - I've just found some good sources and combined them into one "research post". Yes, it's Janine's dog. Very sweet, isn't he/she?
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Luk 7:45 "Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet."
Interesting to note on the above Scripture.. Was she literally kissing His feet from the moment He came in the room?
Notice what it says..
Luk 7:37-38 "And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat ... began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet..."
She was kissing His feet spiritually the whole time since he had entered the room.
Pretty awesome, huh? :)
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Dawidos, thank you so much bro', for that timely reminder to me. Luke 7 always makes me weep. It shows me so many things about the love of Our Saviour.
Amen Arc, this is a great contribution to this thread. You really started something here!
Hudson, I love that insight and I agree it's pretty awesome!
Dawidos, you know I've got a soft spot for puppies! That lil' guy of Janine's is so cute.
As to a Biblical character? Wow, there's so many. I'll have to put my 'Longhorn' hat on for that one! But seriously, it's good to have you back among us.
Every blessing guys
Grape
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Hudson
Spiritual eyes see the Spiritual beauty of our Lord and how He sees. I appreciate you sharing the discernment of the Word of our God to your heart and understanding.
Grape, your cup overflows brother. I was thinking how this Thread has been woven not by my plan or design. You know Who the Author is! I can quote you again ! :D :) in another Thread where your own insight so identified the Author and Finisher of our Faith.... 8) :)
Ours is the blessing to walk in the works He has prepared in advance for us to be blessed and lifted up to His Love and His Presence.
Blessings
Arc
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Dawidos, thank you so much bro', for that timely reminder to me. Luke 7 always makes me weep. It shows me so many things about the love of Our Saviour.
You are welcome. Yes, it shows so many things - love never fails, love always triumphs, love covers the worst sins.
1 Corinthians 13:1-13 written by Paul of Tarsus is definitely my favourite Scripture in the whole Bible. For me it is the essence of everything: God's love, Christ's teachings etc.
If I speak in the tongues of men and angels,
but have not love,
I have become sounding brass or a tinkling symbol.
And if I have prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge,
and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains,
but have not love, I am nothing.
And if I dole out all my goods, and
if I deliver my body that I may boast
but have not love, nothing I am profited.
Love is long suffering,
love is kind,
it is not jealous,
love does not boast,
it is not inflated.
It is not discourteous,
it is not selfish,
it is not irritable,
it does not enumerate the evil.
It does not rejoice over the wrong, but rejoices in the truth
It covers all things,
it has faith for all things,
it hopes in all things,
it endures in all things.
Love never falls in ruins;
but whether prophecies, they will be abolished; or
tongues, they will cease; or
knowledge, it will be superseded.
For we know in part and we prophecy in part.
But when the perfect comes, the imperfect will be superseded.
When I was an infant,
I spoke as an infant,
I reckoned as an infant;
when I became [an adult],
I abolished the things of the infant.
For now we see through a mirror in an enigma, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know as also I was fully known.
But now remains
faith, hope, love,
these three;
but the greatest of these is love.
Dawidos, you know I've got a soft spot for puppies! That lil' guy of Janine's is so cute.
As to a Biblical character? Wow, there's so many. I'll have to put my 'Longhorn' hat on for that one! But seriously, it's good to have you back among us.
Tell that personally to Janine. You will make her a great pleasure. Blessings to you dear brother. The dog in your avatar is also cute.
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Dawidos, it's remarkable that this chapter of Corinthians is also my favourite scripture!
I'm currently putting a post together and 1Corinthians 13 is the basis of it!
How extraordinary!
You're very thoughtful about sharing my thoughts with Janine about her puppy, but she already knows! It was very kind of you to suggest it.
Every blessing
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I may have missed it, but has anyone else ever felt a little like Noah? No one believed him either! :(
Tammy
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Arc, I have been acting a bit like Jonah lately, fussing and carrying on because i don't want to do what i know to do. And then the plant grew up over Jonah and Jonah was grateful but then the darn worm came along as did the east wind and sun and Jonah wanted to die. And boy could Jonah get upset!
Up and down, back and forth and poor Jonah was a mess.
Yes, Jonah!
judy
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Hey Judy...a happy good morning to you too! :D :) SA Time!
Whether Job or whether Jonah,
Ecc 9:2 All things come alike to ALL: there is ONE event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath. ...am glad you caught this one in that other thread Grape! :)
There is ONE God. 8)
Judy, you could put Jonah together with Martha I believe....and Jesus said some WONDERFUL THINGS TO MARTHA!! 8) :) Go check it out! :) 8)
Psa 119:160 The SUM of Thy Word is Truth; And every one of Thy Righteous ordinances endureth for ever. (ASV)
We have to go through it all. God leaves nothing and no one to chance!
Who do you enjoy the most right now? For me, I so enjoy Habukkuk! ;D 8) :) He's a real sweet heart for me.
Who do you want to be around? I just want to laugh and leap and fellowship with the joy Hab K expresses....I just love him to bits! :D :)
........who wants to get together with Lazarus?....CAN anyone get together with Lazarus of the parable?...or just the Lazarus to whom Jesus commanded COME FORTH LAZARUS!!!....I'm staying put with Habukkuk! Who have you got to love and want to be with....? Oh there are others, but just right now, in this moment...Habukkuk is prominent for me... 8) :)...now who would fit with Habukkuk do you think....anyone? Who fits with him in the NT????....of to get buried...I don't know...in the dark....
Blessings
Arc
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@GodIsGracious Absolutely we can share Noah!
Can anyone tell me who the prophet referred to as the 'weeping prophet" is? Was it Jeremiah? I want to look into him further, but I can't remember who it was.
Tammy
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I'm not sure Tammy. I think it is Jeremiah. I went to look him up just now and found out that Jeremiah knew what Habakkuk knew but Jeremiah was not so happy about it. :o :(
Jeremiah and Naomi might make good company?....
I think Paul got the balance when he said he knew
Php 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
These thoughts are for my edification made visible….
Blessings
Arc
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Don't laugh!
I remembered that Jeremiah is the 'weeping prophet' because I once grew a Weeping Fig and we called it 'Jerry'! ::);D
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What a happy answer Grape! Would that we could all have the joy of finding the answers to our questions on a wave of joy and laughter!!!
You know I offered that I didn’t want to be like that chap who the last thing he saw before his eyes were gorged out, was his sons being murdered and then he went to jail where he died. Well I was at that time, seeing this LITERALY. Ohhhh the PAIN…BUT that story is not LITERAL for US because death is followed by Judgment and Judgment is our salvation from blindness, sorrow and death!! 8) ;D
....that fig tree is getting in the way....b..bb bhaha ha. ;D :) 8)..I also knew a fig tree Grape :D ;D....my story is not so funny...scary maybe, but not funny :D :)...so I'll keep it.... :D :)
Our Lord blesses to us all things for our admonition…and JOY... 8) :)
8) :) ;D…no death or destruction is permanent! 8) Real it is yes... :o :'(...but not permanent!! 8) ;D 8)
I feel like a kid being bounced on the knee of my Father! Giggle... giggle... :D ;D :) 8)
Blessings
Arc
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Arcturus,
Your theological expertise continues to amaze me and this thread is indeed my blessing for today. I do so very often feel the way you felt about the cop in your opening post. There are so many people in my life who cause me direct pain and with whom I have little patience. However, now I will begin praying more for them and trying to be more loving and kind. I do pray that GOD will open my spiritual eyes and that I can become more like HIM every day.
Thank you GOD for this forum and for all who contribute so very much. Why would I ever need a church with the love and truth spoken here?
Phil3:10
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Hey Arc,
Y'know the real funny thing about that fig? The joy everyone got from him!
Everyone that came through the patio and into the back lounge used to say to him,
"Cheer up Jerry!". I mean everyone!
He had a dirt sticker with his name on it!
When there was a barbecue, folks going in and out would say,
" Ahh! Cheer up Jerry!"
Sadly, Jerry came to a sticky end.
My Mom in Law popped him out in the potting shed one night, during Christmas vacation. She thoughtfully cleaned up the place, for our return.
New Year's Eve, I noticed he'd gone.
We rang Mom to ask where he was.
"Oh, sorry, I popped him in the shed." she said.
"In the #@*#%#!! shed? !!", I gasped, "He's sub-tropical!"
It was the coldest English December for 25 years.
The deceased Jerry sat, black and limp in the corner of the frosted shed.
We even buried him!
My neighbour was a gas. He was an older man with a very dry sense of humour.
"Serves him right for being so bloody miserable." !!
Poor Jeremiah. A fig above figs. Sadly missed. :'(
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MOTHER IN LAWS :o :o.....OHHHHH okay ;D...re-direct!! :)
I had two chances. :D The first one I really blew it! >:( :) She...my mother-in-law, was Italian and after three years in Rome AFTER I learned the language then the wheels came off. :o You see...if only I could learn to shut up!!... ;D :) Well, my mother-in-law told me that any child of her son's was FIRST HER'S and only THEN mine!!!....I never saw her again after that statement! My husband was shot....not by me...but shot in a most tragic incident....we did not have any children together.
My present mother-in-law....why oh why do they call then IN-Laws ;D :)....it should be OUT-LAW :D....no seriously 8)....how I anguished spiritually over the fact that I could not change what God has written! I TRIED. Oh how I TRIED.... :)...I had to repent...and I am so grateful that God explained a few things about mothers and daughters. Now Kat, this is not for your eyes dear sister...you have an exquisite relationship with your daughter as I believe I had to and with my mother...but...when things get beyond our better desires for harmony...then I turned to the Scriptures as caused by God to turn me to seek His Council over the difficulties I have experienced.
AFTER I was blessed to give up and accept the challenges regarding instant family by marriage :o :D...like instant salvation by a ten second sinners prayer :o ;D :D......THEN I saw the light and peace followed. :) 8)
Now I am educating my son that no matter who he brings home to marry........HE'S got to love her!....Oh...and I will not be open to him bringing anything of the sort of complaint or murmering or bad news about her as this is not okay....God says LOVE your Wife...Honour her...meaning for me...don't talk bad about her to anyone!.... ;D
1Pe 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
Regarding that dear sweet Jerry fig tree :'( :'(....well...perhaps I'll exchange notes with you regarding what happened to the fig tree in my life. :) Suffice to say...it was struck by lightening.... :o ;D :) split right down the middle....it wasn't our fig tree either....It was in the neighbors yard.... My mother-in-law knew what I'd said to the fig tree... :o :o....she was with me as we went for a walk and I explained to her a few things at that time...She scoffed my story about how Jesus cursed the fig tree......God works in mysterious ways! :o ;D :)......Well...that's the effect mother-in-laws have on fig trees when they go for a walk with the daugher in-law... :) :D :)
Blessings
Arc
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Excellent Arc !
Not just me then? ;D ;D
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Arc, that was funny and sad! Yeppers, Mother-in-laws are something to get used to. So, when I became a mother-in-law I determined to give my new relatives a fighting chance. I overdid it though because my daughter-in-law divorced my son!!! She said nobody understood her feelings like I did. She obviously missed the little sermons at the end of our conversations.
Daughter-in-laws are much harder than son-in-laws because you can talk to your daughter easier than a daughter-in-law. Sons don't always tell you their marriage problems usually because they don't know they have one. When i informed my son there was trouble in Paradise he casually mentioned getting flowers for the little miss. She had filed for divorce.
God help us all!
judy
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Hey Phil3:10 ~ your signature Avatar fits in right smartly in this thread dearest brother. 8)
Php 3:10 That I may know Him, and the Power of His Resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable unto His death; :) 8)
And John.... 8) ;D ;D 8)....right back to you! :)
Grape... 8) ;D Amen Alleluia amen! 8) :)
Judy, thanks for your perspective! I know what you mean about daughters and mothers having a much tighter relationship! I’ve been highly blessed to experience that!
Your view point helps! I have only the experience of being a daughter/daughter in-law, and not a mother-in-law….yet…but I am being prepared!! :D ;) :) 8)
After my much loved and best friend mother died, I, stupidly, thought that my new mother-in-law could take her place. Try putting toothpaste back into a tube. I don’t know who gets the worst handling :D…the toothpaste or the tube! :D ;D So, I tried to fit a square into a round hole, I tried to make the toothpaste return to the tube, :'( :( I tried to make the baby get reborn :-[ (have you ever done that?)….poor ol’ man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews to whom Jesus said:
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Well easier said than done, right? You CANN’T put toothpaste back into the tube no matter how hard you try and no matter how sincere or best your intentions are! When at first you begin to marvel it is when the toothpaste just won’t go back to the tube! The baby cannot return to the womb and that’s a very big blessing. I see it like being symbolic that our pain will not be re-visited, repeated or reapplied….like we won’t have to be baptized with fire twice or over again! Once done its done! Once the baby is born…it’s born! That’s a good thing!
This mother-in-law thing that God spoke to me about in the heat of my tears and anguish of my unsuccessful attempts to replace my dear mother ~is spiritual! It’s like that chap I didn’t want to be who last saw his SONS being killed before his very eyes and then he got thrown into jail where he died……That’s the good part! He died as we all must die to our false expectations….sons…. and false assumptions…daughters….and we have to believe in Christ and be born again from ABOVE….It’s a two way street. Both the idol has to be broken and the idol worshiping has to die. Then our relationships become spiritual not physical or naturally assessed, manufactured by instant families born of weddings to traditional ceremonies.
The light dawns!! :)
On the subject of in-laws and instant family ties….have you got any stories you’d like to share regarding the awakening of who our real mother is?
Blessings
Arc
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Grape
Your rendition of what your mother-in-law did to Jerry deserves a spot all of its own in the lime light! :D :)
You say : Sadly, Jerry came to a sticky end. :( :'(
You tell us : My Mom in Law popped him out in the potting shed one night, :o :'( :o
All I can say is….AHHHH Caught in the act! >:( THAT’S what Babylon the Mother of Harlots does! :( >:( She works in the NIGHT >:( :( …in the DARK…in the potting shed….. >:( :( :'( ohhhhhooooo….ohhhhh….dear little seedlings :o….shudder and shake in your pots!!! :o :)
You tell us this happened during Christmas vacation Grape! :o
Wouldn’t you know it!! In the CHRISTMAS…PAGAN…VACATION…when all the followers are stuffing their faces and comparing gifts with hearts that say….covertly... :-[
Pro 23:7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.
Pro 23:8 The morsel which thou hast eaten shalt thou vomit up, and lose thy sweet words.
The wisdom is this:
Pro 23:6 Eat thou not the bread of him that hath an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats:
But do we obey? Nope! We don't even know what it means untilllllllll.....
Don’t we all vomit it up? :-X :-[ :-[ Don’t we find out and recoil at the deceptions we have cleaved to and the errors we have believed. Like Kat said…we have all shared the fruit of the forbidden tree with our relatives of the earthly realms of false familiarity. We’ve all done such undignified things as vomiting and our Heavenly Father, we can THANK GOD…nothing surprises Him! Oh what a wonderful loving Father we have! How we can all give Ray a heart embrace of joy that he brought us the fruit of salvation to eat in his writings that affirm, confirm and prove that Father knows best and Father knows everything, everyone and exactly how we are going to grow up!
Hey that fig tree, both Jerry and the neighbors one split down the middle and cleaved in half, left fallen on the ground face first without fruit….and no tomorrow…both shall live again!
Like that poor soul written for our admonition, had to physically, literally see the death of his sons so we could learn…we upon whom the ends of the earth have come…in the receipt of our sealing by the Holy Spirit and the earnest of our inheritance towards that fullness of redemptions we ache and pine and groan to receive!!
2Ki 25:26 And all the people, both small and great, and the captains of the armies, arose, and came to Egypt: for they were afraid of the Chaldees.
2Ki 25:27 And it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, that Evilmerodach king of Babylon in the year that he began to reign did lift up the head of Jehoiachin king of Judah out of prison;
2Ki 25:28 And he spake kindly to him, and set his throne above the throne of the kings that were with him in Babylon;
2Ki 25:29 And changed his prison garments: and he did eat bread continually before him all the days of his life.
2Ki 25:30 And his allowance was a continual allowance given him of the king, a daily rate for every day, all the days of his life.
We are blessed and given to gratefully receive with thanks, our Daily Bread. 8) :)
Now we desire, hope for, yearn and groan for the full redemption of our souls! All honor and praise to God our Father and His Son our King and Lord....poor little Jerry...cheer up Jer!...Not all is as it seems...but you will get unpotted, forzen and ....ohhhhoooo....that shed RUN RUN...to the light....OH...no...I don't have to run!! The light is on! ;D :D 8) :) and the light is not limelight...it's sunlight ~ Son Light!
Let the shadows decrease and the darkness recede!!....
Blessings
Arc
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Thanks Arc, you just blessed the socks off me !
That was really good. More than a morsel there to digest!
This is a great thread. Our God really knows what fellowship is all about.
Can't wait to see all the 'Mother' replies. I think we're in for another treat ! :)
Thanks again!
Blessings
Grape
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Thanks Arc, you just blessed the socks off me !
That was really good. More than a morsel there to digest!
This is a great thread. Our God really knows what fellowship is all about.
Can't wait to see all the 'Mother' replies. I think we're in for another treat ! :)
Thanks again!
Blessings
Grape
Oh goodie! That makes me very happy!!
We don't want the morsels.. love the banquet!! ;D :) 8)...love the Father.
Banquet Blessings to you Grape..... 8)...no socks required! :)....
Affirming our God...YES He does know and so gratefully I am so happy that He shares and gives us of His good Banquet, His Love and His Spirit.
Arc
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Thanks Arc, you just blessed the socks off me !
That was really good. More than a morsel there to digest!
This is a great thread. Our God really knows what fellowship is all about.
Can't wait to see all the 'Mother' replies. I think we're in for another treat ! :)
Thanks again!
Blessings
Grape
:)....I do too..... :)
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This is a long thread with many answers i will make mine short. Man is born into sin trouble ect. Job we do it all the time but our eyes are not open to see this. It is a grace when are eyes are open and humbling. Flesh can at that time come in and condemn us. As the sun comes up in the morning that will happen. It is Gods work that last and it is His plan not ours. repentant' s is good But Jesus does the work in us. I see 2 working being done here humility and the temper. peggy Christ is doing a good work in us.
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What a beautiful reply ez2u! So uplifting sister!
It is a comfort to know and hear, not too many times, that Christ is doing a good work in us! 8)
The flesh of the carnal mind that condemns us, :( :'( shall not succeed indefinitely. :) God does set the limit to which evil can go ~ where God says, no further! 8)
Just reflecting on this Power, Sovereignty and Wisdom and Love of our God that shows up within your comments Ez2u....caused me to remember with a deep sense of comfort :
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,……
Job 38:8 .... who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
Job 38:9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
Job 38:10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
Job 38:11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
I remember Ray telling us that the sea is symbolic of the wicked ......where Ray expounded that, I do not know...yet I recall...with gratitude...
"For the earth shall be FILLLED with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea" (Hab. 2:14).
Oh it "shall" shall it? WHY NOT NOW? Wouldn’t it be better NOW if the earth were FILLLED with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord? Why later? Because it is God’s way. Let me quote Hab. 2:3 from the Revised Standard Version:
"For there is still a vision for the APPOINTED TIME; it speaks of THE END, and does not lie., If it seems to tarry, wait for it, it will surely come, IT WILL NOT DELAY."
God’s ways take time and He does everything according to His schedule, trust me, EVERYTHING IS RIGHT ON SCHEDULE. /ref : LOF 7
Blessings
Arc
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Blessing and grace dear sister peggy
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Arcturus,
The most relieved moment of my life was when I came to understand that hell was an invention of the Babylonia Church System. The second was when I realized that I have no free will and that only GOD'S will matters. HIS schedule is perfect and at HIS appointed time all that HE has promised will come to pass. HE is so powerful, so great and so wonderful and we are nothing in our carnal state.
In HIM,
Phil3:10
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Isn't it amazing Phil 3 :10 that the Babylonian Church system, has its roots in Judaism :o
God is so Great! 8)
Blessings dear brother
Arc