bible-truths.com/forums
=> Off Topic Discussions => Topic started by: AK4 on July 18, 2011, 01:55:46 AM
-
Hey yall,
i just want to include yall in this discussion me and my friend is having. I asked him "what is the most important question", "who? what? when? where? why? and How?"
We have our back and forths, its a silly game we do. So i wanna include you guys in too. Which one do you think is the most important question? This ment to be a fairly discussion, nobody right, nobody wrong, but all opinions welcomed. Please back up your answer in some way
-
Good Question Anthony.
Q: Who am I?
-
Did God (The Father) ever struggle against some great incomprehensible evil and come out on top, to eventually lead Him to the perfect being that He is today, being only good and filled with Light and no turning of shadows, yet with the knowledge of this "evil." Well did He?
I think yes, because as ray put it, where did this knowledge of evil come from if there is no evil or any such thing anywhere near close to God and he was the only one around before the creation?
-
Did God (The Father) ever struggle against some great incomprehensible evil and come out on top, to eventually lead Him to the perfect being that He is today, being only good and filled with Light and no turning of shadows, yet with the knowledge of this "evil." Well did He?
I think yes, because as ray put it, where did this knowledge of evil come from if there is no evil or any such thing anywhere near close to God and he was the only one around before the creation?
Isa. 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me..."
Isa. 45:7 "I...create evil..."
-
Did God (The Father) ever struggle against some great incomprehensible evil and come out on top, to eventually lead Him to the perfect being that He is today, being only good and filled with Light and no turning of shadows, yet with the knowledge of this "evil." Well did He?
I think yes, because as ray put it, where did this knowledge of evil come from if there is no evil or any such thing anywhere near close to God and he was the only one around before the creation?
1Co 4:6 My brothers, it is because of you that I have taken Apollos and myself as examples of these things, so that in us you might see that it is not wise to go farther than what is in the holy Writings,
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Hey Alex.
Who God is and what He is doing [with humanity] is not mutually exclusive. The Father is self existent [eternal] so everything had to come out of Him. Light and darkness are Gods creation and both are alike to the One who created it. There is none else beside Him. We are all a work in progress to be saved alive according to His will,through an all knowing Spirit.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:.
Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness:I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Gen 50:20 And you, you devised against me evil, yet the Elohim devises it for me for good,that it may work out as at this day, to preserve alive many people.
Peace...Mark
-
Did God (The Father) ever struggle against some great incomprehensible evil and come out on top, to eventually lead Him to the perfect being that He is today, being only good and filled with Light and no turning of shadows, yet with the knowledge of this "evil." Well did He?
I think yes, because as ray put it, where did this knowledge of evil come from if there is no evil or any such thing anywhere near close to God and he was the only one around before the creation?
Isa. 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me..."
Isa. 45:7 "I...create evil..."
Yes, we all know the Lord creates evil. Thank you john.
-
Did God (The Father) ever struggle against some great incomprehensible evil and come out on top, to eventually lead Him to the perfect being that He is today, being only good and filled with Light and no turning of shadows, yet with the knowledge of this "evil." Well did He?
I think yes, because as ray put it, where did this knowledge of evil come from if there is no evil or any such thing anywhere near close to God and he was the only one around before the creation?
1Co 4:6 My brothers, it is because of you that I have taken Apollos and myself as examples of these things, so that in us you might see that it is not wise to go farther than what is in the holy Writings,
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Hey Alex.
Who God is and what He is doing [with humanity] is not mutually exclusive. The Father is self existent [eternal] so everything had to come out of Him. Light and darkness are Gods creation and both are alike to the One who created it. There is none else beside Him. We are all a work in progress to be saved alive according to His will,through an all knowing Spirit.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:.
Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness:I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Gen 50:20 And you, you devised against me evil, yet the Elohim devises it for me for good,that it may work out as at this day, to preserve alive many people.
Peace...Mark
Hey yall,
i just want to include yall in this discussion me and my friend is having. I asked him "what is the most important question", "who? what? when? where? why? and How?"
We have our back and forths, its a silly game we do. So i wanna include you guys in too. Which one do you think is the most important question? This ment to be a fairly discussion, nobody right, nobody wrong, but all opinions welcomed. Please back up your answer in some way
Sorry for playing along in this silly game and wondering where the Lord, God the Father, got His KNOWLEDGE of evil from. I'm well aware He is the reason evil is created and exists in our world today. That wasn't what my question was about AT ALL.
-
Now, we don’t think about these things. I’m trying to get people to look at these scriptures. Look at the words, believe it and see what it says. “glorify Me with thine own self with the glory which I had…” Glorify mean a worthy name or worthy to be praised or worthy to be extolled or worshipped. Christ said, give Me back this glory which I had with You. Where did He get it? What did Jesus Christ do, before the foundation of the world, that entitled Him to glory? What? I mean does God just put crowns and accolades on people? What did He do to deserve it, nothing? I’m all powerful. Where did He get the power? Christ tells where He got His power and stuff. He said God gave it to Me, “all power is given to Me of the Father.” That’s where He got it.
But now glory is something that you do, that exalts you as someone to be worshipped, adored, and appreciated, for what, you’ve done. What did He do before the creation of the world? Before He created the world...what did He do? Well I contend that He did something.
Somebody ask the other day, ‘why is God going through all this ( I could almost hear them say nonsense) to create sons of God? If He created Christ Jesus, why doesn’t He just create a whole bunch of Jesus?' Well why doesn’t He just make a whole bunch of Jesus’? We wouldn’t have to go through all this pain and suffering, growing old and being sick, hurting and dying? Just create a bunch of Jesus’ and then He’ll have all the sons He wants.
We don’t know what Jesus went through. How did He become number One? How did He become the Son of God? How did He become glorified? What did He go through? It says;
Heb 5:8 “though He was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which He suffered;”
‘Yea, but that was talking about things in His physical life.’ Was it? Was it really? We could say that and give examples of it. But is that exclusively what it was talking about? Only in the physical flesh, did He suffer to learn obedience and so on?
Let me show you something, back in Genesis;
Gen 3:22 “And the Lord God said, now the man is become as one of Us, to know good and evil;”
When there was only God, no creation, no star systems, just God. What did He know about evil? What evil?
Now He creates man and He said, “now he can become like one of Us, to know…” and of course you can say good, because God is good. But evil? How did God know evil? What in the universe... well there wasn’t a universe, well what in God then was there that was evil? How did He know evil? He created evil, but where did it come from? Where did the idea come from? When it was only God, who is righteous and good and Holy and just and all of that, where was the evil? God was evil?
What I’m saying is He knew evil, how did He know evil? Now man understands evil. They are going to be banished from the garden and they die. This is an evil that has come upon them, because they disobeyed. Which is another evil you see. But God said “We understand good and evil,”( Gen. 3: 22) Before there was a creation, God understood evil. From where? From what?
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html
I'm upset right now, you're talking to me like I'm an idiot and I don't understand basic things like God created evil. You guys are so quick to correct and teach, this was an off topic post for silly questions.
[A question to Ray] His reply; He’s just thinking ahead that He is going to create something called evil? But where would that concept come from? If He’s thinking ahead, He’s going to create a Son, who was going to live righteous and good. But that comes from Him, that is what He is. God is love, God is spirit, He’s invisible, this is what He is. God is not evil. How did He know evil? I have some ideas about that. What I’m saying is you can all see that it was there. We’re going to go a little deeper then these other people go.
God is all wise, all knowing, all powerful and He does not change. Did He ever? That’s what He is now, but did He have to go through something to become what He is. Hmm, wow maybe there is more glory in that then you could ever conceive of. Well why doesn’t He change? ’What are you trying to say Ray, are you trying to insinuate that He’s learning?’ No, He knows it all. When you reach perfection, you don’t change. Once you reach total perfection, you do not change! Jesus Christ is the express, very absolute, image of God. Guess what? He doesn’t change. You don’t change when you are perfect. Total perfection! Well you think about that.
The Bible starts “In the beginning…” In Gen. 1:1, Right? No, wrong pale face. It just says “In beginning…” or if anything “In a beginning…”
I don’t want to give the wrong impression when I say God knows all and He’s perfect, but did He always know what He knows?
Did God ever grow?
Did God ever experience anything bad, to become perfect?
Well He doesn’t tell us. But I’m just saying I see little insights. You know He knew good and evil. How did He know evil, when there was nothing but Him? See what I’m saying, there was not even Christ. Now by the time Christ came along as the Son of God... because you see ‘We,' you know the ‘We’ in Genesis. But that still includes the Father, that knew good and evil. But how? Well people don’t even think about it, they just think that’s God He knows everything. Yea but where was it(evil)... I mean God is not evil. But where was the evil, that He knew evil?
I'm just wondering if someday we are going to learn that God is not a magic Jeanie in a lantern. That God has BECOME what He is. Some will say, ‘well I don’t know what to think about that.’ We know He is what He is, but what I’m saying is, what if He BECAME what He is. Maybe God is a whole lot more better and stronger then we could ever dream. Because you could have an idea like you think He’s like a King born with a silver spoon in His mouth. That He was always God and He always had everything He wanted. He just snaps His fingers and presto. But what if it wasn’t always that way? What if God has 10 trillion times the character that we have?
Where did the concept come from, that you have to endure pain and hardship, to develop Godliness? Where did that concept come from? Well you say God just invented it. Why would you invent something that doesn’t exist like that?
He wants us to become like Him. But are we going to do it through something that has no relevance, to what He is whatsoever? That doesn’t quite make sense to me.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html
-
Alex, you didn't answer Anthony's question either. ;D Of course, niether did John or Mark.
Play or stay away.
Who, what, when, where, or why?
I'm going with WHO. Because a WHO is already a what, the 'when and the where' are usually insignificant variables, the WHY tells us about the character of the WHO, and the HOW about the Who's abilities and choices...both of which would be meaningless without the WHO they refer to.
That's the best I can do after seconds of soul-searching. ;D
-
My opinion is 'why'. I think that when we're with the Lord we'll begin to understand his purposes: why some are made vessels of honor and some of dishonor, why only few are chosen, why Israel was favored above all other nations, why God continues to love us even after we continually screw up... man there sure are a lot of 'whys':)
-
I'm upset right now, you're talking to me like I'm an idiot and I don't understand basic things like God created evil. You guys are so quick to correct and teach, this was an off topic post for silly questions.
Alex,sorry for the misunderstanding,I based my reply on your question. :)
Well did He?
Peace...Mark
-
AK4, I can see where you and your friend could go round and round with this one. :) It is interesting. I gotta go with "why." Seems to me if we know the "why" then all the other questions would be answered.
-
i'm going with 'who' also. from there we can hopefully learn the answers to the other questions.
claudia
-
I have to agree with Dave and Claudia here. All is of God, and God is a Who. 8)
Who [is] like Thee among the gods, O Jehovah? Who [is] like Thee -- honourable in holiness -- Fearful in praises -- doing wonders? Exodus 15:11
Who hath ascended into the heavens, or descended? Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His son's name? Tell me if you know! Proverbs 30:4
Treasure not up to yourselves treasures on the earth, where moth and rust disfigure, and where thieves break through and steal, but treasure up to yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth disfigure, and where thieves do not break through nor steal, for where your treasure is, there will be also your heart. Matthew 6:19-21
When thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Isaiah 26:9
and they having heard, with one accord did lift up the voice unto God, and said, `Lord, thou [art] God, who didst make the heaven, and the earth, and the sea, and all that [are] in them, who, through the mouth of David thy servant, did say, Why did nations rage, and peoples meditate vain things? the kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord and against His Christ. Acts 4:24-26
From Jehovah [are] the steps of a man, And man -- how understandeth he his way? Proverbs 20:24
And they said to him again, `What did he to thee? how did he open thine eyes?' John 9:26
-
There is no most important question!
You want back up...
God IS who, what, when, how and why. NO separate questions but all together, God is all in all. Questions separated is the manifest nations of humankind diversity. No one is higher or more important than another.
Light is red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet. Not just one color but all colors are important not one higher or more important than another.
When questions or color bands of light are see as one together not separate, then all colors are gone and only white Light remains.
When questions of who, what,when how and why are seen as one together not separate, then all questions disappear and only One God remains.
God is One. When separated, diversity manifests.
Father is as white Light and Son is as the prism that separates the Light of God into the manifest being of the spectrum of life.
Arc
-
In your question to your friend, you said "WHAT is the most important question" so you must think WHAT is. ;D
I think they all go hand in hand.
Who? God the Father.
What? sent his Son.
When? 2,000 years ago.
Where? Israel.
Why? God so loved the world.
How? Jesus died willingly on the cross.
:)Joel
-
Jesus demonstrates the earnest, anguished prayer to God, to let the cup pass.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Jesus did not exhibit the love of power but the power of Love.
IMO, the cup did pass for Jesus and the Will of His Father was accomplished!
Arc
-
I agree with Arc. All questions are convergent. Also, it makes no sense to me that the Son would ever ask anything of the Father that wouldn't be answered in the affirmative. Therefore, the cup did pass and Father's will was accomplished. Amen.
Thanks, Arc.
-
Jesus demonstrates the earnest, anguished prayer to God, to let the cup pass.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Jesus did not exhibit the love of power but the power of Love.
IMO, the cup did pass for Jesus and the Will of His Father was accomplished!
Arc
I agree with Arc. All questions are convergent. Also, it makes no sense to me that the Son would ever ask anything of the Father that wouldn't be answered in the affirmative. Therefore, the cup did pass and Father's will was accomplished. Amen.
Thanks, Arc.
No, the cup did not pass...that would have been contrary to the Father's Will:
Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 15-B (http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html):
God said that He would "make" the soul of Jesus an offering for sin. God doing the "making" is the CAUSE. Therefore, Jesus was not free to run from the cross. God inspired Jesus [caused] Him to pray. And God caused Jesus to pray that His Father’s will, would be done, not His Own will. It was a real battle for a few hours. The will of Jesus cried out for another way other than to drink the cup and go to the cross. Hour after hour He poured out His heart to His Father. And hour after hour His Father propped Him up so that He would not and could not give in to His flesh.
God MADE Jesus go through that spiritual battle of His will, but never for a second was the plan of God in jeopardy! God had clearly prophesied the positive outcome of this battle hundreds of years before its actual occurrence. And absolutely nothing in the history of the universe has ever thwarted God’s plan, purpose or intention.
The Father inspired [caused, made] Jesus state time after time, "Not My will but Thine, Not My will but Thine, NOT MY WILL BUT THINE"!!
It was the very words of His Father that Jesus prayed. Those words that came out of the mouth of Jesus first came out of the heart of His Father, and God’s Words never ever return to Him void.
"So shall My word be that goes forth out of My mouth [and into the mouth of Jesus]: it shall NOT RETURN UNTO ME [as when Jesus prayed back those same words to His Father] VOID, but it SHALL ACCOMPLISH that which I please, and IT SHALL PROSPER in the thing whereto I sent it" (Isa. 55:11).
'To drink the cup' meant to die on the cross after extreme torture. This actually happened, it was not passed over, Jesus took up His cross and finished His Father's work.
Hope this helps,
Marques
-
Marques is correct. That cup did not pass from Jesus.
Also, I respect Jesus for asking that the cup pass. Who in their right mind would want to go through torture? This shows me that Jesus was not a nut but had a sound mind.
Another lesson I learned from that prayer of Jesus. If the Father said no to Jesus, then the Father won't hesitate to say no to me. Many things that I have asked for in prayer, I have received an answer from the Father of NO!
-
Jesus Christ is alive, the cup is past, it is finished.
Arc
-
Marques is correct. That cup did not pass from Jesus.
Also, I respect Jesus for asking that the cup pass. Who in their right mind would want to go through torture? This shows me that Jesus was not a nut but had a sound mind.
Another lesson I learned from that prayer of Jesus. If the Father said no to Jesus, then the Father won't hesitate to say no to me. Many things that I have asked for in prayer, I have received an answer from the Father of NO!
Would you also agree that maybe Jesus was showing His human side? The side of humanity that is weak in the flesh? Seems this is one of those times Jesus was being tempted to give in to His flesh when He asked to have the cup pass from Him, but His Father wouldn't let Him.
Here is an "important question".
Mat 20:22 But Jesus answered by saying to them, "You don't know what you are asking! Are you able to drink from the bitter cup of suffering I am about to drink?" "Oh yes," they replied, "we are able!"
Sorry I know a little deep and off topic in the off topic board, my bad.
Since this discussion has gone where it has gone, I couldn't help it.
Here is something from Ray I missed before, where it seems Jesus changed His prayer from "let this cup pass" to "if this cup MAY NOT pass from me".
http://www.bible-truths.com/emails.html
From the King James:
"Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities, for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."
This marvelous Scripture, however, does not bring out the whole truth contained in the Greek manuscripts regarding this verse, in the King James Version. Here is a better translation.
From the Concordant Literal New Testament:
"Now, similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with WHAT MUST BE, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading for us with inarticulate groanings."
"With WHAT MUST BE..." There is the answer! And here is the perfect application of this verse in the real world:
"And He went a little further and fell on His face, and prayed saying, O My Father, IF it be possible, let this cup pass from Me: [but that was NOT POSSIBLE! God had already PREDETERMINED that Jesus SHOULD drink this cup, and therefore, IMMEDIATELY recanted to the prodding of the Holy Spirit and said the following...]: nevertheless not as I will, BUT AS THOU WILL ['to accord with WHAT MUST BE']."
Then Jesus prayed again, WITHOUT asking God to take the cup from Him:
"He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if this cup may NOT pass away from Me, except I drink it, THY WILL BE DONE" (Matt. 26:39 & 42).
Clearly Jesus was CAUSED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT to pray "in accord with WHAT MUST BE."
-----------------------
Peace to ALL
G.Driggs
-
Jesus Christ is alive, the cup is past, it is finished.
Arc
Good point Arc! It did pass, AFTER Jesus drank it. I don't see any disagreement here. Your initial response confused me a bit Arc, until I read that part I quoted from Ray. Maybe you should have included your above quote with your first response? Just sayin. ;)
Jesus kept watching and praying so as not to fall into temptation after He asked to let the cup pass knowing the flesh is weak, but the spirit is willing.
Mat 26:40 Then He returned to the disciples and found them asleep. He said to Peter, "Couldn't you watch with Me even one hour?
Mat 26:41 Keep watch and pray, so that you will not give in to temptation. For the spirit is willing, but the body is weak!"
Mat 26:42 Then Jesus left them a second time and prayed, "My Father! If this cup cannot be taken away unless I drink it, Your will be done."
What a great example for the disciples and us! When your feeling weak pray for strength. Where have I heard that before?
Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Luk 11:3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
Luk 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
Just to try and stay semi on topic, the most important question, who, what, when, why? I haven't a clue, sorry. ;D
G.Driggs
-
Marques is correct. That cup did not pass from Jesus.
Also, I respect Jesus for asking that the cup pass. Who in their right mind would want to go through torture? This shows me that Jesus was not a nut but had a sound mind.
Another lesson I learned from that prayer of Jesus. If the Father said no to Jesus, then the Father won't hesitate to say no to me. Many things that I have asked for in prayer, I have received an answer from the Father of NO!
Would you also agree that maybe Jesus was showing His human side? The side of humanity that is weak in the flesh? Seems this is one of those times Jesus was being tempted to give in to His flesh when He asked to have the cup pass from Him, but His Father wouldn't let Him.
Here is an "important question".
Mat 20:22 But Jesus answered by saying to them, "You don't know what you are asking! Are you able to drink from the bitter cup of suffering I am about to drink?" "Oh yes," they replied, "we are able!"
Sorry I know a little deep and off topic in the off topic board, my bad.
Since this discussion has gone where it has gone, I couldn't help it.
Here is something from Ray I missed before, where it seems Jesus changed His prayer from "let this cup pass" to "if this cup MAY NOT pass from me".
http://www.bible-truths.com/emails.html
From the King James:
"Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities, for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."
This marvelous Scripture, however, does not bring out the whole truth contained in the Greek manuscripts regarding this verse, in the King James Version. Here is a better translation.
From the Concordant Literal New Testament:
"Now, similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with WHAT MUST BE, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading for us with inarticulate groanings."
"With WHAT MUST BE..." There is the answer! And here is the perfect application of this verse in the real world:
"And He went a little further and fell on His face, and prayed saying, O My Father, IF it be possible, let this cup pass from Me: [but that was NOT POSSIBLE! God had already PREDETERMINED that Jesus SHOULD drink this cup, and therefore, IMMEDIATELY recanted to the prodding of the Holy Spirit and said the following...]: nevertheless not as I will, BUT AS THOU WILL ['to accord with WHAT MUST BE']."
Then Jesus prayed again, WITHOUT asking God to take the cup from Him:
"He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if this cup may NOT pass away from Me, except I drink it, THY WILL BE DONE" (Matt. 26:39 & 42).
Clearly Jesus was CAUSED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT to pray "in accord with WHAT MUST BE."
-----------------------
Peace to ALL
G.Driggs
Hi,
I don't have any problems with the scriptures you quoted.
But you say maybe Jesus was showing His "human" side. What does that exactly mean? What other side did He have? He didn't have a split personality like the christian churches falsely teach--- a divine side and a human side.
He gave up all the power He had before His human birth. He was made a little lower than the angels. The breath of life came into Him and He became a living nephesh, a living human soul, subject to death.
Jesus said that He could do nothing Himself. That the Father in Him, the Father did all the works. I get that. Jesus said that there is no one good but one, God. I get that too. His words are the basis of my beliefs that we have no good in us either, and we can do nothing of ourselves. That any good in us comes only from God in us. God does all the works. He gives us both the will and the to do.
The night before He died, He knew that He was going to be terribly beaten, that He would be nailed to a stake and suffer for hours, then be stabbed to death. I understand fully why He prayed to God asking, if it were possible, that another way be found other than what was to come. He would have been a total psycho if He didn't ask for a way out. The Spirit of God is the Spirit of a sound mind. This Spirit doesn't do crazy things.
He prayed to the only One Who can get things done. The Father said NO. That was it. The Father's word is final. The Father got Him through those terrible trials. Jesus stood tall, He didn't whine or beg, He didn't have a pity party. He accepted His lot through the power of His God. I'm proud as punch as to how He conducted Himself.
John
-
Hi G. Driggs,
Would you also agree that maybe Jesus was showing His human side? The side of humanity that is weak in the flesh? Seems this is one of those times Jesus was being tempted to give in to His flesh when He asked to have the cup pass from Him, but His Father wouldn't let Him.
Yes Jesus was flesh and blood and knew what was coming, remember what was already written about Him in the OT.
Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
But the Father must have really been longsuffering to watch His Son go through all that. He most certainly did not ignore His Son crying out in agony :'(
Luke 22:43 And an angel appeared to Him from Heaven, strengthening Him.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Hi everyone and thanks for replying. Ive been away from my computer so i have not had a chance to read anyones response yet or even tell you guys which one i think is. I still dont have time right now to read all of you guys responses, but i will.
Thanks
Anthony
-
Sorry Anthony, but your original question got lost along the way.:P Business as usual. ;D
René
-
But you say maybe Jesus was showing His "human" side. What does that exactly mean? What other side did He have? He didn't have a split personality like the christian churches falsely teach--- a divine side and a human side.
John
This quote from Ray should help explain what I was trying to say.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11521.0.html
If Jesus was just another little Jewish boy, and there was nothing “divine” about Him, why was He not just born naturally like every other little Jewish boy? Or why not supernaturally by using the Virgin Mary? Why did He need to be “conceived” (impregnated) - given the first ingredient of LIFE by the Holy Spirit of God? Why? After all, “He’s just a man.” Would just an ordinary, natural born Jewish boy somehow not be qualified to be the flawless, perfect, sinless, Saviour of the world? Why not?
Does Jesus have to be 100% human OR 100% God - one or the other? Or was He 100% human AND 100% God - both at the same time? No!
Jesus was not 100% human nor 100% God. JESUS WAS TOTALLY UNIQUE. He was a divine being in the family of God, Who emptied Himself (Phil. 2:7) of His powerful Godly honors and dignities and title. Yet He retained some glory and honor (Heb. 2:9) when He was MADE (for a little while) lower than the angels for the suffering of death. But He was not 100% God, in that He had to ask His Father…
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.
-----------
My point was the human part of Him could be tempted in every way just like us, but His Father would not let Him give into it. It was that human part of Him that asked "let this cup pass".
He gave up all the power He had before His human birth. He was made a little lower than the angels. The breath of life came into Him and He became a living nephesh, a living human soul, subject to death.
It's obvious He did not give up "all power" because He did a lot of miracles while on earth. But He did give up most of His "glory" and "honor".
I understand fully why He prayed to God asking, if it were possible, that another way be found other than what was to come. He would have been a total psycho if He didn't ask for a way out
He asked because He was tempted to take the easy way out, just like carnal humanity likes to do. But Jesus wasn't carnal, He was just tempted to do that. Which is why He prayed again "in accord with what must be" just as Ray said and proved through the Scriptures. In that way He was an perfect example for us on how to pray.
It's obvious we disagree, and the last I want is to get into a quarrel with you or anyone else. This is just the way I understand these things at this time. If I'm wrong and if it's important, I hope and pray God show me.
But the Father must have really been longsuffering to watch His Son go through all that. He most certainly did not ignore His Son crying out in agony
I totally agree Kat, thanks.
Isa 63:9 In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Angel of His Presence saved them; in His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them, and carried them all the days of old.
Peace,
G.Driggs
p.s. Sorry for getting so off topic Anthony.
-
Dear friend G. Driggs,
One question about what you said about Jesus retaining "some" power in order that he could perform the miracles that he did while fulfilling his tasks.
Isn't it true that Jesus is quoted as saying that he did not do anything himself?
That all things were done by God the Father at Jesus' request?
Indiana Bob
-
Here we go again. We've lost the thread of the original posting. C'mon guys, we're already impressed by your considerable knowledge and your skill at debating.
-
Hi Bob, check your private messages.
G.Driggs.
-
Marques is correct. That cup did not pass from Jesus.
Also, I respect Jesus for asking that the cup pass. Who in their right mind would want to go through torture? This shows me that Jesus was not a nut but had a sound mind.
Another lesson I learned from that prayer of Jesus. If the Father said no to Jesus, then the Father won't hesitate to say no to me. Many things that I have asked for in prayer, I have received an answer from the Father of NO!
Would you also agree that maybe Jesus was showing His human side? The side of humanity that is weak in the flesh? Seems this is one of those times Jesus was being tempted to give in to His flesh when He asked to have the cup pass from Him, but His Father wouldn't let Him.
Here is an "important question".
Mat 20:22 But Jesus answered by saying to them, "You don't know what you are asking! Are you able to drink from the bitter cup of suffering I am about to drink?" "Oh yes," they replied, "we are able!"
Sorry I know a little deep and off topic in the off topic board, my bad.
Since this discussion has gone where it has gone, I couldn't help it.
Here is something from Ray I missed before, where it seems Jesus changed His prayer from "let this cup pass" to "if this cup MAY NOT pass from me".
http://www.bible-truths.com/emails.html
From the King James:
"Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities, for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."
This marvelous Scripture, however, does not bring out the whole truth contained in the Greek manuscripts regarding this verse, in the King James Version. Here is a better translation.
From the Concordant Literal New Testament:
"Now, similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with WHAT MUST BE, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading for us with inarticulate groanings."
"With WHAT MUST BE..." There is the answer! And here is the perfect application of this verse in the real world:
"And He went a little further and fell on His face, and prayed saying, O My Father, IF it be possible, let this cup pass from Me: [but that was NOT POSSIBLE! God had already PREDETERMINED that Jesus SHOULD drink this cup, and therefore, IMMEDIATELY recanted to the prodding of the Holy Spirit and said the following...]: nevertheless not as I will, BUT AS THOU WILL ['to accord with WHAT MUST BE']."
Then Jesus prayed again, WITHOUT asking God to take the cup from Him:
"He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if this cup may NOT pass away from Me, except I drink it, THY WILL BE DONE" (Matt. 26:39 & 42).
Clearly Jesus was CAUSED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT to pray "in accord with WHAT MUST BE."
-----------------------
Peace to ALL
G.Driggs
Hi,
I don't have any problems with the scriptures you quoted.
But you say maybe Jesus was showing His "human" side. What does that exactly mean? What other side did He have? He didn't have a split personality like the christian churches falsely teach--- a divine side and a human side.
He gave up all the power He had before His human birth. He was made a little lower than the angels. The breath of life came into Him and He became a living nephesh, a living human soul, subject to death.
Jesus said that He could do nothing Himself. That the Father in Him, the Father did all the works. I get that. Jesus said that there is no one good but one, God. I get that too. His words are the basis of my beliefs that we have no good in us either, and we can do nothing of ourselves. That any good in us comes only from God in us. God does all the works. He gives us both the will and the to do.
The night before He died, He knew that He was going to be terribly beaten, that He would be nailed to a stake and suffer for hours, then be stabbed to death. I understand fully why He prayed to God asking, if it were possible, that another way be found other than what was to come. He would have been a total psycho if He didn't ask for a way out. The Spirit of God is the Spirit of a sound mind. This Spirit doesn't do crazy things.
He prayed to the only One Who can get things done. The Father said NO. That was it. The Father's word is final. The Father got Him through those terrible trials. Jesus stood tall, He didn't whine or beg, He didn't have a pity party. He accepted His lot through the power of His God. I'm proud as punch as to how He conducted Himself.
John
John,
Yes I agree with you. He was fully human. Keep in mind God never changes while Jesus does. Just like us. When Jesus said, the father is in me, I can't say nothing of myself, for myself can't do nothing ,Something like that. I think what he said is that anything that proceeds out of him is from the Father, so whatever you hear jesus teach, you are really hearing it from the Father speak, Not Jesus.
Jesus never said he was God, nor diid he say he was God's equal. Because if that is so, then he would have nothing at all to learn — God knows everything. Let alone, he would not have had to learn to be obedient since God ONLY is good and holy and perfect. Even Jesus didn't want you to worship him, only the Father.
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Jesus had to suffer to learn to be obedient. If Jesus had to learn obedience, obviously this means that there were times in his life that he was not and he had to suffer for it to learn to become obedient. If Jesus were God would he have had to learn to be obedient?
Mar 10:17 …Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
If Jesus were perfect like God. he would not have become indignant at the fact that a man called him good. Jesus did not consider himself good, and this was not merely an expression of humility. Only God is good.
Jesus did his duty as any Son of God would do. he did very well.
Denise
-
This thing about who and what Christ is gets pretty complicated. Here is a section from the conference 'Who and What is Jesus' that might be helpful with this.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg38212.html ---------
"Let this mind be in you, which was [is] also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant [slave], and was made in the likeness of men"(Phil. 2:5-7).
Now here we learn a little more of what this is about. When it says “mind” it is the disposition of God Himself. Where it says “equal with God” it is the same amount or degree and so on.
“Being in the form of God…” is being inherently in the form of God. Inherently, that’s an interesting word, it means possessed at birth or the inborn, right. I thought now that is interesting, that's 'before' He became man, He was by birth - inborn.
Strong’s uses the word, He existed as a 'innate.' Existent as an innate birth, a right by birth. That is what it means, a right by or through birth. Jesus Christ was BORN. To which of the angels did He ever say, you are My son I have begotten you... as a little boy in a manger? He was His Son, 'from the beginning!' The whole idea of Jesus Christ, was to be a Son, from the beginning. Now it says.
Phi 2:6 …thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
v. 7 but made Himself of no reputation, and took on Himself the form of a servant(slave), and was made in the likeness of man.
So this was an inborn right of birth, to have these powers. What did He do? Where it says, "He made Himself of no reputation," the KJ margin says, He empted Himself of all His privileges. I mean He is so mighty and everything, I mean you’re not going to kill Him. He has got to reduce down, to something really small, compared to what He was. He voluntarily did that, “He took it on Himself,” you see. He was made low enough to kill. It says in Hebrews, “A little lower than the angels,” so they could kill Him. How was that accomplished? He emptied Himself of everything God had given to Him. I guess God could have taken it away, but He didn’t take it away, Christ gave it up.
v
There is no doubt about it Jesus Christ now has immortality, that means He can’t die. But we are talking about a time when God ‘only’ had immortality. Where did Christ say He got His life? He got it from the Father (John 5:26).
But you always want to think about these things. Someone will say, ‘well that’s talking about His human flesh, you know human.’ No, I think these things are dual. These things pertain to Him ‘before’ His human flesh. You know He talked about the glories and stuff He had before (John 17:5). Did He have a glory as a human? He prayed for the glory He ‘once’ had, so did He not have any glory then? Well, He did have glory. We read that in flesh and blood He did have glory.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
He didn’t have the glory that He had though. I mean it was much more, it was much grander. He didn’t have all that glory, because He diminished Himself.
v
So could Jesus Christ be as mighty as God and still be able to die? Not only could He, He had to. Because that’s who died. The One who spoke to Moses, is the One who died. How did He die? Now no one could have killed Him, He was too powerful. But He could lay down His life. He could do it Himself and He did. Put all the scripture together. Christ said, “I lay down My life, no one takes it from Me.” (John 10:17-18). Someone would have you believe that God said, You will die. No, He volunteered. He said “I lay down My life,” no one takes it, He volunteered. But how could He do that? He’s the Creator of the universe!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
John,
When Jesus said he and his father are one. I think he meant to say he and his Father think alike, think the same and is of like mind. He even said we will be one with them one day.Jesus never said he was God, or was his equal. He even say to worship the Father, not him. he always called himself a son of God like you and I will be. He is the first begotten of many.
The reason I think Jesus was fully man than popular opinion says. Like ray says, if the church teaches its probably wrong and we have to reprove all things.
The bible tells us that it was “supposed” that Jesus was the son of Joseph (Luk 3:23). It was supposed by all the people that Jesus was the son of Joseph, because he was exactly that: the son of Joseph. However, the author of Luke tells us that contrary to popular opinion Jesus was not actually the son of Joseph, but of the Holy Ghost.
Luke also tells us that Joseph’s father was HEli. However, Matthew tells us that Jacob was Joseph’s father. This seems like a contradiction.
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
To make things even more complicated yet, naturally, the other gospels not in the canon say more about this which clears this up quick. HEli and Jacob were twins. It also said helio died childless. So neither Joseph nor Mary could be the child of hEli. So that eliminates Jesus qualifying as Messiah through the lineage on the side of Heli.
Actually, hardly any of the names in the two genealogies listed in Matthew & Luke match after King David. While Matthew lists Joseph as being 'begat' from Heli, Luke simply says the 'son of Jacob'. There were no Greek words to mean 'son in law' and this is most likely Mary's genealogy.
The bible tells us that Mary’s cousin, Elisabeth, was a Levite. James, the brother of Jesus, tells us that Joachim, who was a priest, and Ana were the parents of Mary.
Where in the Holy Scriptures does he state this? Or did you read of this in another ancient writing's translation?
Priests could only be Levites, and Mary’s father was a priest. So that makes Mary a Levite. Therefore, Jesus could not qualify as the Messiah through Mary’s side of the family and that also refutes the theory that Mary’s father was Heli.
Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
The fact that Elisabeth was Mary's cousin makes perfect sense, seeing that Levi and Judah were brothers and their descendants would be one another's cousin.
So,The only explanation for Joseph appearing as the descendant in both genealogies, of Matthew and Luke, is that he was the physical son of Jacob and the “step” son of HEli. This is because Jacob and HEli were twin brothers. When Eli died and left no physical heir, according to custom Jacob being the brother of Eli married his widow and she bore Joseph — known as a levirate marriage.
HEli and Jacob were thus uterine brothers. Heli having died childless, Jacob raised up seed to him, begetting Joseph, his own son by nature, but by law the son of hEli. Thus Joseph was the son of both. *
It's impossible for Joseph to belong to both genealogies. This statement from you is an inaccurate theory seeing that none of the names match in the two genealogies after King David. While a brother was obligated to raise his deceased brother's family, the chances of that happening in EVERY GENERATION (which it would have to in order to support this theory) are absurd.
Joseph had two fathers as it were, Jacob and HEli, his mother being the widow of hEli. So Joseph was of the tribe of Judah. Mary’s parents were Joaquim and Ana, the tribe of Levi. Jesus’ father was Joseph and his mother was Mary. Jesus’ grandfather was Jacob who was a direct descendant of Solomon.
According to prophecy, The messiah has to be a descendent of both David and Solomon.
A descendant of Solomon has no choice but to be a descendant of David, seeing that Solomon was David's son. The rest of this above statement is not validated in the Holy Scriptures.
Jesus came from two different royal priesthood. That can explain how he started to preach in churches and people called him rabbi or teacher.
No, Jesus was a descendant from the tribe of Judah not both Judah & Levite. Here is why Jesus could preach when and where He wanted to, and it had nothing to do with genealogy:
Psalms 110:4 Yahweh has sworn, and He shall not regret: You are a priest for the eon according to the order of Melchizedek." [CLV] (the order, as in like manner...not the genealogy)
Heb 7:11-19 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.
For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.
For He testifies: “ You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is thebringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
Only people from priesthoods can be called rabbi or priests. Holy Spirit helped make it happen for Joseph an Mary. But they did have sexual relations
That makes absolutely no sense. Why would they need the Holy Spirit to 'make it happen' if the were intimate BEFORE getting married? They were only 'bethroned' (engaged) when the Holy Spirit came upon Mary. Either Jesus is the son of the Father through the Holy Spirit or the son of Joseph, but not both.
Jesus is the descendant of David and Solomon through Joseph. Mary is the descendant from the Levites
Jesus is the son of man and a Son of God spiritually. God begot Jesus at his baptism. Begotten means taken in as your parent or adopt into the family.
Don't take it from me, look it up.
What is a 'son of God spiritually'? You say it as if to be 'spiritually' something is not really true.
Jesus was not 'adopted' into the household of God.
Denise, you've brought more false doctrine/teaching into this forum than any member I can recall. And no matter how much you are refuted, you just keep coming back with one unscriptural theory after another.
If you believe in all these supposed contradictions within the scriptures, of Paul not being a true apostle, of Jesus not being the Son of God, etc then why are you here? I don't understand the desire to continually clash with everything we learn and speak of here.
Marques
-
You shoot down people unless it comes from Ray. You don't want to give every person a chance to explain anything unless it is something that Ray teaches. I simply shared what I know, like a group discussion, u treat me like I'm the black sheep of the group. You speak to me with an attitude. Makes me kind of feel belittled.
We come together for one purpose, to discuss what is truth. You make it sound like Ray has the absolute Truth-and everyone is wrong. I have watched this forum change and it's scary.
This is like other churches thAt shoots down anyone who teaches otherwise from what they believe. Not giving anyone any chance to explain and you make me feel like a stupid person who is always wrong. I share what is on my heart and you shoot me down and scream spiritually, "you are wrong" and won't acknowledge it. I remember I tried to share it with my pastor what I learned from Ray, they wouldn't even read it and say it is heresy. You are doing the same thing to me. I read the history of the early fathers and what they had to say. It's pure scary what they say about the bible, what thy did from 2nd century to 5th century ad, and what history it went through, even they admit to changing the doctrines in the bible and some of them admit to the deceit. Galus, Origen, Clement of alexandria, justin martyr, st. Jerome,Tertullian,Hermas, d many others. If you don't want to read about them, then look up the famous meeting in Nicea in 325 AD. It's scary.
The bible use to be a lot longer than it was now. You can read it up, think for yourself and reprove every story always. It does help to know the Jewish history and customs. They always do the Royal genealogies thru the males and never thru the females. I am simply pointing out that jesus got his royal kingship from Joseph.
Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
1 John 5
1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
And that was in the bible.
Jesus is a begotten son of God spiritually. You know what I mean. Joseph is Jesus father biologically but he has the mind of the Father. As will many sons and daughter gain once the become begotten. the Holy spirit defines you. We can't just believe everything we read. We have to reprove Always like the scriptures say.
I believe everyone has the truth right and we just just abandon the present truth as we attain a higher spiritual truth. No one is wrong. We are always learning. It is written on our hearts and you know this to be true. Even if years ago, you wouldn't accept what Ray teaches until you had the ability to receive it. I realize I am not a teacher so I will leave it alone. I am sure you guys are only receptive to what Ray has to teach and what he finds. he probably teaches it better than me anyway. He is gifted. As he receives it, he will share with you guys and I'm sure you guys will be more open to it when he does. and it will be like a bomb every time, like he exposes the deceit of hell, thithing and so on. I guess I am a heretic in your eyes until it's exposed to be the Truth. Like some people think Ray is a heretic until they learn what he is saying is the truth. no one is wrong. Just how they see The truth.
Please forgive me for offending you, that is not my intentions, just hungry to share but i will shut up. Please forgive me.
Denise
-
Is it too much to ask that we have a forum focused on what is taught at Bible-truths.com? I say, absolutely not. I won't tackle everything in your post, Denise, but I will address this:
"We come together for one purpose, to discuss what is truth. You make it sound like Ray has the absolute Truth-and everyone is wrong. I have watched this forum change and it's scary."
Everybody who joins the forum is asked if they have read the rules. The rules state very clearly what this forum is about and HOW it is different from every other forum on the internet. That is the purpose 'we came together' for. We clearly admit that the moderators don't have the time or the wisdom to determine whether or not everyone else's thoughts are right or wrong. We just ask that you respect the purpose of THIS forum. We don't ask anybody--sincere seeker or religious hobbyist--to agree with everything taught at B-T. We just ask that if you have come here to teach us, that you please take it elsewhere.
There are hundreds of websites devoted to bible-discussions. There is only one devoted to what Ray teaches. We don't even require that you agree with Ray...only that you take your disgreement TO Ray and not on the forum. If someone quotes Ray, he or she is only saving you (and Ray) the effort of an email exchange.
I too have seen in my more than three years here many attempts to CHANGE the forum into a free-for-all 'discussion' group. I KNOW that I didn't join such a forum--because I know that I would never join such a forum--and I know that if it ever becomes one, I am out of here.
The no-teaching rule is there for a good reason. I'll admit that it's sometimes hard to discern and to enforce fairly. We're only human. But when it is, it behooves every member to understand why it's there.
You're going to have to let us be what we are. I'm not the teeny-tiniest bit ashamed of what we are.
-
Is it too much to ask that we have a forum focused on what is taught at Bible-truths.com? I say, absolutely not. I won't tackle everything in your post, Denise, but I will address this:
"We come together for one purpose, to discuss what is truth. You make it sound like Ray has the absolute Truth-and everyone is wrong. I have watched this forum change and it's scary."
Everybody who joins the forum is asked if they have read the rules. The rules state very clearly what this forum is about and HOW it is different from every other forum on the internet. That is the purpose 'we came together' for. We clearly admit that the moderators don't have the time or the wisdom to determine whether or not anyone else's thoughts are right or wrong. We just ask that you respect the purpose of THIS forum. We don't ask that anybody--sincere seeker or religious hobbyist--to agree with everything taught at B-T. We just ask that if you have come here to teach us, that you please take it elsewhere.
There are hundreds of websites devoted to bible-discussions. There is only one devoted to what Ray teaches. We don't even require that you agree with Ray...only that you take your disgreement TO Ray and not on the forum. If someone quotes Ray, he or she is only saving you (and Ray) the effort of an email exchange.
I too have seen in my more than three years here many attempts to CHANGE the forum into a free-for-all 'discussion' group. I KNOW that I didn't join such a forum--because I know that I would never join such a forum--and I know that if it ever becomes one, I am out of here.
The no-teaching rule is there for a good reason. I'll admit that it's sometimes hard to discern and to enforce fairly. We're only human. But when it is, it behooves every member to understand why it's there.
You're going to have to let us be what we are. I'm not the teeny-tiniest bit ashamed of what we are.
Okay, you are right. I forget sometimes that this forum's only purpose is to ask questions about Ray's papers and nothing else.
I apologize. I think sometimes after a while, you forget the boundaries of this forum when it comes to studying the scriptures.
Please accept my apology.
Denise
-
I can't speak for everyone else, but I received my magic decoder ring from the mother ship.
When I receive a message, I put on my funnel cap coated in tin foil, go outside and face in the direction of Mobile, Alabama, and chant: Ray Akbar! Ray Akbar!
It works for me. ;D ;D ;D
Lol, you know how to make people laugh. Thanks, I need it.
-
You shoot down people unless it comes from Ray. You don't want to give every person a chance to explain anything unless it is something that Ray teaches. I simply shared what I know, like a group discussion, u treat me like I'm the black sheep of the group. You speak to me with an attitude. Makes me kind of feel belittled.
We come together for one purpose, to discuss what is truth. You make it sound like Ray has the absolute Truth-and everyone is wrong. I have watched this forum change and it's scary.
This is like other churches thAt shoots down anyone who teaches otherwise from what they believe. Not giving anyone any chance to explain and you make me feel like a stupid person who is always wrong. I share what is on my heart and you shoot me down and scream spiritually, "you are wrong" and won't acknowledge it. I remember I tried to share it with my pastor what I learned from Ray, they wouldn't even read it and say it is heresy. You are doing the same thing to me. I read the history of the early fathers and what they had to say. It's pure scary what they say about the bible, what thy did from 2nd century to 5th century ad, and what history it went through, even they admit to changing the doctrines in the bible and some of them admit to the deceit. Galus, Origen, Clement of alexandria, justin martyr, st. Jerome,Tertullian,Hermas, d many others. If you don't want to read about them, then look up the famous meeting in Nicea in 325 AD. It's scary.
If this forum is so 'scary', why oh why do you continue to come back? If this is a group who truly worships an ordinary man, why would you want to be a part of it? I don't believe you truly mean any of this because actions speak louder than words, and yet, your actions show that you want to participate with this 'scary' forum.
Members, riddle me this: how come when someone comes in, to 'discuss' the truth, that if we don't agree with them, that means we're only following Ray? How many times have these so called 'truth bearers' ever said 'Oh, I was wrong' after multiple members show them their errors using the Scriptures?
Denise, I don't speak to you with an attitude, you simply don't like being refuted.
The bible use to be a lot longer than it was now. You can read it up, think for yourself and reprove every story always. It does help to know the Jewish history and customs. They always do the Royal genealogies thru the males and never thru the females. I am simply pointing out that jesus got his royal kingship from Joseph.
What??? His 'royal kingship' came FROM GOD! I have looked it up, it's right there in Psalms AND Hebrews as I've shown you already. It has nothing to do with his genealogy.
Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
1 John 5
1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
And that was in the bible.
Denise, this is a load of crap. Not one scripture states Joseph 'begat' Jesus but we DO have a scripture that says Jesus was 'begotten' by God.
When the angel told Mary she would be with child, Mary's response was "how can this be, since I do not know a man?" [Luke 1:34]. Matthew 1:25 also testifies to the fact that Mary and Joseph did not 'know' each other until after Jesus's birth. But you said above that Mary and Joseph had sexual relations that produced Jesus. It was through the Holy Spirit that Jesus was born, not some man.
Also, how in the world would Philip know that Jesus was the Son of God? He just met him! Of course to everyone before they knew him he was 'the son of Joseph'. Joseph is said to 'take Mary as his wife' [Matt 1:24-25] which means to be a 'Father' to any children she may have. But you don't read anywhere that Joseph 'begat' Jesus.
Jesus is a begotten son of God spiritually. You know what I mean. Joseph is Jesus father biologically but he has the mind of the Father. As will many sons and daughter gain once the become begotten. the Holy spirit defines you. We can't just believe everything we read. We have to reprove Always like the scriptures say.
It sounds like you don't believe anything that doesn't fit your unscriptural beliefs. How many scriptures must you be shown? 20? 50? 100?
I believe everyone has the truth right and we just just abandon the present truth as we attain a higher spiritual truth. No one is wrong.
This is exactly why YOU DON'T LEARN! If one thinks they are always right, why would they learn from anyone else?
It is written on our hearts and you know this to be true. Even if years ago, you wouldn't accept what Ray teaches until you had the ability to receive it. I realize I am not a teacher so I will leave it alone. I am sure you guys are only receptive to what Ray has to teach and what he finds. he probably teaches it better than me anyway.
His teaching is better because it's based on the scriptures, nothing more. The ONLY thing that's drawn most of these members to this ministry are the sound, scriptural teachings brought forth. If this ministry was based simply on one man's opinion, it would have died off a long time ago
He is gifted. As he receives it, he will share with you guys and I'm sure you guys will be more open to it when he does. and it will be like a bomb every time, like he exposes the deceit of hell, thithing and so on. I guess I am a heretic in your eyes until it's exposed to be the Truth. Like some people think Ray is a heretic until they learn what he is saying is the truth. no one is wrong. Just how they see The truth.
Denise, you're simply blowing smoke...you are a heretic because you pronounce heretical doctrines as if they are true! You avoided every scripture shown to you because they contradict your beliefs. Ray doesn't do that...when you have the scriptures to back you up, you're never painted into a corner. But you seem to be and can't get your way out of it, that's why I'm on you now.
If you don't get anything out of this, at least any member who may be confused by your 'truth' will know the difference. If you don't know by now, I DO NOT LIKE WOLVES among these sheep!
Please forgive me for offending you, that is not my intentions, just hungry to share but i will shut up. Please forgive me.
If you want to be forgiven, show a forgiven attitude. Read the papers...look through the conference transcripts and bible studies...stop being tossed to and fro by every doctrine. Just because something causes you to have 'itchy ears' doesn't make it true.
This isn't the first time your 'truths' have been refuted, that should tell you something.
Marques
-
Hi Denise,
It takes time to get rid of things you learned in the church. You don't even realize these things come out. I'm sure there are things you currently know as fact that will some day seem foolish to you.
It's evident you have a lot of hard earned knowledge gained over many years of study. It's just IMO some of it is build on the wrong foundation which leads to these conflicts.
I'm happy that Ray's teaching's have brought you to this forum. I just wish you would not make so many dogmatic statements that are contrary to what most here believe.
I wish you would simply take one subject at a time and say something like "This is what I believe..." and state you case and see what others have to say. And if no one agrees with you then move on. Do not beat a dead horse.
What we do not tolerate here is blatant teaching. If everyone taught what they 'think' then this forum would be confusing for everyone and no one would learn much of anything.
If you have something to share then please try and use the approach I suggested. Just one small item at a time please.
Thanks,
Dennis
-
Thanks Dennis for understanding where I'm coming from. I will do that. I will explain how I came to this. One at a time.
I was simply pointing out the prophecies in the old testaments that pointed that prophesied how to identify the messiah. I know he is also the priest of order of Melchisedec.
Look at this scripture.
Jesus was a high priest as we are told he was called of God as was Aaron.
This part also stated the words" today"
God said to Jesus, today I have begotten you.
Hebrews 5
1For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
2Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
3And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
4And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
See what I mean?
Thanks so much.
Denise
-
See what I mean?
Sorry, no Denise. I have to tell you I have not read this thread and have no intention to read every word. I have way too much going on (you'll have to trust me, I have a lot going on).
But what I would like to see you do is try and make your point with just a few very short sentences. If it's a valid point that's all you should need. Pick your two best points and no more.
When I see pages of text posted I many times think 'vanity'
What I see from skimming you posts is you have come to understand some of what is taught on BT. IMO that is a gift from God given directly to you.
I'm guessing that you have most likely been a teacher of sorts for many years and that is part of your identity. You now have to give that up and assume a new identity. The old you has to die. It can die a good death or go down kicking and screaming. The kicking and screaming will be very hard on you.
A true saying: "Less is more."
-
Okay, you are right. I forget sometimes that this forum's only purpose is to ask questions about Ray's papers and nothing else.
I apologize. I think sometimes after a while, you forget the boundaries of this forum when it comes to studying the scriptures.
Please accept my apology.
Denise
I forgive you, Denise as it's commanded to although with your attitude, I can definitely understand why it's getting hard for others to forgive you especially since you've done this before. but please do definitely remember the purpose of this forum especially this line from the rules which I give it to the moderators, they are very clear about the rules and the purpose for this forum:
THE IMPORTANT STUFF:
This forum and how it is moderated, is different than most all religious based forums on the internet so please read carefully.
If you are considering joining this forum before reading and studying www.bible-truths.com, please reconsider.
It would be beneficial to all involved if you take the time to familiarize yourself with the teaching of L.Ray Smith first.
This is not the place to decide if you agree with the teaching of L.Ray Smith, but a place you can retreat to when you do.
This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.
If you seriously disagree with Ray, please email him directly.
If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.
Keep this in mind when you are posting in the future especially what I italicized and you won't run into any problems (and do feel free to take a look at the rules at any time if you forget).
-
Thanks believechrist100, thanks Dennis,
I think I was just reminded (chastened) when I was doing some reading. If not careful, Wisdom can easily subject one to think above the flock. and I need to remind myself that unconditional love will never subject themselves above the flock but subject themselves beneath the flock. Sometimes, silence is golden. I think it's been on my heart for a long time. It's a quality that Needs dealing and to be burned out. I enjoyed talking about bible stuff with people. It sometimes get the best of me.
I just like to talk.
I have prayed and told God what was on my mind.I said it just doesn't make sense nor does it make sense.
How can Jesus say and preach he overcame the world and told us we can do it too when he himself had the advantage of having the Holy Spirit and majority of the world don't.
How can people follow him by example if he had the advantage and they don't. It sounds almost hypocrite, unless he was fully man, who suffered like us, repenting from sins and becoming perfect through suffering and was begotten of God at his baptism. Like sons and daughters are begotten of God at a point in their lives after much suffering.
If you guys have any answers to these questions.. That would be wonderful because it will give me peace.
Thanks,
Denise
-
Thanks believechrist100, thanks Dennis,
I think I was just reminded (chastened) when I was doing some reading. If not careful, Wisdom can easily subject one to think above the flock. and I need to remind myself that unconditional love will never subject themselves above the flock but subject themselves beneath the flock. Sometimes, silence is golden. I think it's been on my heart for a long time. It's a quality that Needs dealing and to be burned out. I enjoyed talking about bible stuff with people. It sometimes get the best of me.
I just like to talk.
I have prayed and told God what was on my mind.I said it just doesn't make sense nor does it make sense.
How can Jesus say and preach he overcame the world and told us we can do it too when he himself had the advantage of having the Holy Spirit and majority of the world don't.
How can people follow him by example if he had the advantage and they don't. It sounds almost hypocrite, unless he was fully man, who suffered like us, repenting from sins and becoming perfect through suffering and was begotten of God at his baptism. Like sons and daughters are begotten of God at a point in their lives after much suffering.
If you guys have any answers to these questions.. That would be wonderful because it will give me peace.
Thanks,
Denise
That's no problem at all Denise. I'm going to move these questions to a new thread under General Discussions to give it a fresh start: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13354.0.html
These kinds of questions are more than welcome.