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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: River on July 26, 2011, 09:19:33 AM
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Hi,
Have you all found since learning of the false free will, how incorporated that belief is in everything around us? I think one of the greatest things I learned from this site was understanding that we do not have a free will and how the scriptures show this. I just can't get over how much I am aware of this when I hear others speak. It seems so much is connected with that false belief.
By the way hello to all on the forum. :)
River
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Hello River!
YES, free will is a big stumbling block!
Welcome to the forum!
Antaiwan
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Welcome to the forum River. I think that most of us feel very similar to you. It truly takes a miracle for that idol to fall but once it does and the lights pop on everything begins to fall into place. And for me it's a great comfort to know that I don't have a free will.
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Welcome to the forum River, and I completely agree with your comments. It's the first lesson learned when you open your Bible: Adam & Eve.
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Hi River,
Welcome to the forum :)
We all just assume we have freewill because the causes are not apparent. But when you study the subject according to the science of cause and effect, you know it is an impossiblity. It is interesting how the everyday langauge of people reflects the idea of freewill though.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Have you all found since learning of the false free will, how incorporated that belief is in everything around us?
By the way hello to all on the forum. :)
River
Hi, River, and welcome to the forum! :)
I totally agree with you. The world is "blinded" by this false belief and it fuels their arrogance, pride, and their hatred (the carnal mind) towards their Creator.
René
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Hello River, welcome aboard!
You are so right about free will being in the heart of everyone around us. Doesn't matter a bit if they believe in a religion or God at all, free will is a deep seeded belief in the heart of everyone who does not know otherwise. Even for some of us who are blessed to know the difference, we (me) sometimes struggle with accepting the reality of this wonderful truth.
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Isn't it amazing that even those who are believing and holding on to "free will" are "caused" by God to be so. They sadly don't even know that all that we think and say and do has a cause, and anything that is caused cannot be "free will."
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Not having a free will coupled to an acceptance that God controls everything can lead to a false sense of pleasure. Non are responsible all are accountable. God is blameless.
Welcome to the Forum River ~ :)
Arc
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Oh I forgot. River, I apologize. Warmest welcome! From your post I can see that wisdom will flow from you .. like a River:)
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Hi,
Such a nice welcome from all. Thank you much. Thanks also for all the comments, it is nice to relate and to see the perspectives you all have. I am hopeful to learn more and to endure what I must to get where I am suppose to go.
River
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Hi River,
Welcome to the forums. :)
To answer your question: Yes, I have. Even in my course studies, they make sure to add "by his/her own free will" in every chance they can get.
Interestingly, just as an example, once upon a time, prior to the Age of Reason (Enlightenment, its other name, is a misnomer), crime was believed to be a result of Divine fate - that people were criminals because God had ordained them to be such (Vessels of Honor and Dishonor). Then, along came "philosophers," and they started to preach that man chooses "of his own free will" to either obey laws or break them.
I'm sure this particular heresy was around long before that particular time period though.
Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
In Him,
John
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[quoteNot having a free will coupled to an acceptance that God controls everything can lead to a false sense of pleasure. Non are responsible all are accountable. God is blameless. ][/quote]
Thank you Arcturus, this is so true. We must never confuse the truth of NO free will with the false sense of license; meaning, well, I did it, so God willed it, so maybe I will do it some more. That attitude will heap judgement on your head. Walk circumspectly with these great truths; make absolutely sure in your heart of hearts you do not use them as an excuse to allow yourself to not resist sin and evil.
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Not having a free will coupled to an acceptance that God controls everything can lead to a false sense of pleasure. Non are responsible all are accountable. God is blameless.
Thank you Arcturus, this is so true. We must never confuse the truth of NO free will with the false sense of license; meaning, well, I did it, so God willed it, so maybe I will do it some more. That attitude will heap judgement on your head. Walk circumspectly with these great truths; make absolutely sure in your heart of hearts you do not use them as an excuse to allow yourself to not resist sin and evil.
I think that's exactly why not many know of this truth. Its for their own good!
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Hummm since a person is not in control then I don't really think it is possible. An excuse is just a persons way of saying what they think is why something happen, it doesn't mean it is true or the exact reason it did. Excuse or no excuse what is meant to happen will and we aren't getting in the way. ;)
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Hi River
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
Jas 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
Jas 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
This warning is the very warning that needs to be kept in mind when the total sovereignity of God is in view. God is blameless. I am not going to get into all the ways that God steers his creation. That is unimportant COMPARED to your heart and its attitude. I will repeat...DO NOT LET THE TOTAL SOVEREIGNITY OF GOD BECOME A SECRET DOORWAY IN YOUR HEART SO YOU ALLOW YOURSELF to be less vigilant or have less hatred of evil and unrighteousness. Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith. I dont care if you know all the proper doctrines, if you do not resist evil and love righteousness and hate wickedness, then you have missed the point.
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Hi,
Have you all found since learning of the false free will, how incorporated that belief is in everything around us? I think one of the greatest things I learned from this site was understanding that we do not have a free will and how the scriptures show this. I just can't get over how much I am aware of this when I hear others speak. It seems so much is connected with that false belief.
By the way hello to all on the forum. :)
River
This is what enables them to "get God off the hook" for not saving everyone and all the evil in the world.
It will be important for them to see someday that they could not save themselves. For this reason (at least in part) God sends them a strong delusion. The belief in free will appeals to their lawless nature. That's what free will is, lawlessness.
All is of God and they (and us) will know it. Keep fighting the good fight AND be still. ;D
G.Driggs
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God is blameless
"The Real Origin of Sin" - Ray's Article http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html (http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html)
I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God’s intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.
If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn’t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn’t Adam exercise restraint. What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design. God was the Designer; is God the blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?
Now listen carefully. Here is wisdom beyond its years. When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is he responsible for the malfunction? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay.
Now then, according to Christendom, when God creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is He responsible for the malfunction? No. Does He hold the experiment or machine responsible? Yes. Does He hold man responsible? Yes. See the wisdom?
I have just shown you one reason why God calls the WISDOM of this world, STUPIDITY!
"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness [Greek: stupidity] with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness" (I Cor. 3:19).
First, Christendom assumes that God’s creation of humans malfunctioned -- they did NOT!
Second, they assume that God is not responsible and does not take responsibility -- He DOES!
One unscriptural assumption added to another unscriptural assumption does not equal a Bible Truth!
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There were a lot of reasons why Calvary happened the way it did. :)
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God is blameless. The word "blame" connotes sin, error, fault. God has no sin, error, fault. God is responsible, YES. He has NO blame, however, I am not parsing words there. There is a difference between blame and being responsible. Do not try to find fault with God, you won't.
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God is blameless. The word "blame" connotes sin, error, fault. God has no sin, error, fault. God is responsible, YES. He has NO blame, however, I am not parsing words there. There is a difference between blame and being responsible. Do not try to find fault with God, you won't.
That is a connotative definition of blame. The word blame definitely has a negative connotation (emotional definition). I'm referring to the denotative (dictionary) definition. I apologize for the confusion.
Blame: to hold responsible; to place the responsibility for
EDIT: My last post is a direct quote from Ray's article on the Origin of Satan, Evil, and Sin. Those weren't my words :)
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Hi River
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
Jas 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
Jas 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
This warning is the very warning that needs to be kept in mind when the total sovereignity of God is in view. God is blameless. I am not going to get into all the ways that God steers his creation. That is unimportant COMPARED to your heart and its attitude. I will repeat...DO NOT LET THE TOTAL SOVEREIGNITY OF GOD BECOME A SECRET DOORWAY IN YOUR HEART SO YOU ALLOW YOURSELF to be less vigilant or have less hatred of evil and unrighteousness. Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith. I dont care if you know all the proper doctrines, if you do not resist evil and love righteousness and hate wickedness, then you have missed the point.
And just how do I ALLOW myself to will and resist evil and love righteousness?
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And just how do I ALLOW myself to will and resist evil and love righteousness?
You don't.
Eph 2:8 For by grace [G5485] you are saved through faith [G4102], and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.
G5485
χάρις
charis
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
G4102
πίστις
pistis
pis'-tis
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
God influences the heart to cause a person to desire not to love evil or consider God's sovereignty a license to sin. He also places the desire in you to do good. As you are given the desire, you act on it.
Joh 15:5 I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
In Him,
John
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And just how do I ALLOW myself to will and resist evil and love righteousness?
I will ignore your word "ALLOW" because it implies you dont have to give forth effort. You do.
Pe 5:8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
1Pe 5:9 Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world
Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
Of course we can only do things thingsa as Christ is in us...but look...ph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. THEre IT IS> WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP> FOR WHAT REASON? TO WALK IN GOOD WORKS> It is all in your attitude and in your hearts desires. Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
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For me, the bottom line is, in every decision that I make I am aware of wanting to please God. I am sure this is found in most Forum members. In my day to day life, I only consciously refer to the fact that of Gods sovereignity when He puts me into difficult circumstances, or wonderful circumstances, or raises up challenges, etc...I know it is all from His hand. But I WANT to DO THE RIGHT thing! EVEN IF IT TAKES GREAT EFFORT! Do you think it took great effort for Jesus in the Garden when he prayed? Of course it did! Because I am so past the doctrine of eternal torment and how the church uses free will to justify it, I don't think about free will from that perspective anymore. Jesus will save the world, and everyone in it. But what about me? Am I pleasing Him? Am I gratifying the flesh or the spirit? That is where the rubber really hits the road. DO I LOVE RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATE WICKEDNESS? If I secretly love wickedness. why? Then pour out your heart to God to change and cleanse me. I dont want to be an old man when I can finally say, Look..I am free from the carnal pulls of lust for women. Just because my testosterone is low, then. NO!! I want to power of GOD to change me, to live above the fleah and world even now. What does it mean if I have victory when temptation is nonexistent? Nothing. What does it mean when God teaches and gives me the strength to live pure when I am full of hormones? A lot more, IMO. Do you see what I am trying to say? In that clumsy example? The cross of Calvary has secured everyones salvation. Lets get beyond that! I am not worried about that. I have much greater hopes in mind. I can see my life becoming more pleasing to Him. I can see my thoughts and actions becoming subject to Him. It gives me hope! It gives me hope to attain to the First Resurrection! I want to be with Christ in the First resuurection. That is the goal of our faith, that is the salvation of our souls. hp 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead
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Hi Doug,
Of course we can only do things thingsa as Christ is in us...
This you state and it shows you believe in the sovereignty of God. But then you say this.
But what about me? Am I pleasing Him? Am I gratifying the flesh or the spirit? That is where the rubber really hits the road. DO I LOVE RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATE WICKEDNESS?.......
But I WANT to DO THE RIGHT thing! EVEN IF IT TAKES GREAT EFFORT!......
The cross of Calvary has secured everyones salvation. Lets get beyond that! I am not worried about that. I have much greater hopes in mind. I can see my life becoming more pleasing to Him. I can see my thoughts and actions becoming subject to Him. It gives me hope! It gives me hope to attain to the First Resurrection! I want to be with Christ in the First resuurection. That is the goal of our faith, that is the salvation of our souls.
Then saying something like that can be somewhat confusing, to me anyway. It's like your saying our effort makes a difference. I think of all the numerous people down through the ages who have devoted their whole lives to seeking and serving a god, like monks and nuns and so many others who go to extremes effort to service their god. But of course that will not get them the first resurrection. It just doesn't seem to me that we should emphasize OUR efforts, because even our desire to put forth effert comes from the sovereign God.
Here is a part of the Bible study 'Do James and John Contradict?' that I think Ray makes the point so well through the Scripture that everything comes from God.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9742.msg82512.html --------
“BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH”
In Ephesians 2, here Paul puts it all together for us.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith (alone?)…
Is that what it says? That’s what Martin Luther would have you think it says. That’s what A. E. Knoch would have you think. That’s what Dobson and Billy Graham and all the rest of these guys, the modern Worldwide church of God, would have you believe. No!
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (‘this’ would be a better word)...
Now I‘ve always said ‘that,’ that being the faith. That that faith is not your own it’s the gift of God. But I think it is talking about ‘this’ or ‘these.’
v. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith…
‘This’ grace and ‘this’ faith, both of them, not just the one, but both of them.
v. 8 … not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
v. 9 Not of works…
Here it is, here we get to bring it on down. It’s “not of works,” it’s of FAITH. But it’s not your own faith, it’s this gift of God faith and this gift of God grace. That’s how you're saved, not by your works. Not by works, because that is something you do. This faith and this grace, it’s not yours, it comes from God. It a gift, that’s not yours, it’s God’s, but He gives it to you. That’s what is going to save you, not your own works. Your own works will not save you, it takes this gift of grace, gratuitous, free, favor, love from God and the faith of God as a gift to you. That’s going to save you, not your good works, lest you boast.
v. 9 …lest any man should boast.
Then you would say, ‘well I earned it, I did it, I deserve it, I did it and I earned it.’ It’s not of works. Now get the context here. Sometimes we read these verses and we don’t put them all together in one thought, in one sentence. This grace and this faith of God is given to you as a gift and that is what is going to save you, not your own works.
v. 10 For we are HIS workmanship…
Now if you read that, for WE are His workmanship, well then you lost it. No no no, you’ve got to know how to put the emphasis on the right words.
From Eph. 2:8-10, it’s grace and faith from GOD, a gift from GOD, not of yourself, from GOD, that saves you. Not your works, this gift is from GOD, for we are HIS workmanship…
What kind of workmanship?
v. 10 …created in Christ Jesus unto good works…
Now are good works absolutely essential to this thing called salvation? Absolutely, you just have to get it straight in your mind. It’s not your faith, it’s Christ’s faith, it’s God’s faith. It’s not your grace, it’s God’s grace. It’s not your works, it’s GOD’S works in you. Do you see it? It’s God’s works in you.
v. 10 …which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
This is ordained, it’s got to be. This is not like, ‘well it’s nice if you have some, but it’s okay if you don’t, because you’re saved by faith alone.’ No, this is essential. Do you see how he brings faith and works together? They are both essential, they just come from God.
But this idea that Paul taught faith and James taught works, is nonsense. If you believe that you can add the word ‘alone.’ It’s not faith alone, it’s faith and God working in you through Christ Jesus to do the good works that He’s declared you have to do.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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And just how do I ALLOW myself to will and resist evil and love righteousness?
I will ignore your word "ALLOW" because it implies you dont have to give forth effort. You do.
DougE6..I used the word "ALLOW" because you used it in your previous post to me. It had not a thing to do with impling not giving forth effort. I tend to think you have misunderstood that your efforts are given to you and not something you alone can do. Thus that is why I asked how shall I allow my will to resist evil and love righteousness. I know it is not possible for me being a sinner to do that because it is contrary to my nature. I know it all must be of God. It is a very humbling experince to know that I can do nothing. I find I am more thankful and grateful for that which I have. And of course it now makes me rely totally on God to bring about that which all along I was doing with my own efforts and of course failing miserably. Thanks for your posts.
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Thank you Kat and River for your inputs!
Kat, I think what you are finding confusing is that I judge myself, and judging oneself is testing and comparing ones works, is it not? Does not God use my conscience, and the spirit in me, to lead and judge me? Yes. I don't know how God is going to sort out all others throughout history, I only know how is dealing with me. But in regards to those others, I hope that God has mercifully caused many to judge themselves and die to self for Him, even in the relative darkness of a monastery. I do know this, His Love is unmatchably deep, and His ability to save and reach others is perfect. I absolutely believe that apart from the Father we can do nothing. But I also take seriously all admonitions in the Scriptures, like ...
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
I feel the humbleness that River so eloquently expressed too, about how weak we are, how apart from Jesus we can do nothing. Yes. That brokeness causes joy to rise up out of your soul, when you know that God is working in you, and making you full of His spirit! Living waters, I think Jesus said, did he not? Inexpressible joy? Where you hardly can contain yourself? But then I mustdo and obey what He asks. He asks that I judge myself and I do not feel I am trying to gain "salvation by works" or anything like that. I am takijng very seriously all the scriptures, and I do not want to be condemned with the world, I do want (fearfully) His chastening, and I rejoice when I see that His chastening makes me love righteousness and hate wickedness, and even more, I everyday marvel how I am becoming more giving and loving towards others. I can feel it! And I love God and I am less and less timid(was my greatest weakness in times past) actually borderline pretty bold as most everyone knows me knows my zeal..I WILL remain zealous for God (Lord willing) and zealous for His righteousness(Lord willing) and zealous for obedience YET fearfully circumspect because I know how weak my flesh is.