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=> Off Topic Discussions => Topic started by: arion on March 28, 2012, 11:55:48 AM
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When I was a kid:
We used to go over to my Grandparent's house when there was a good movie or tv show on tv because they had a large color television.
VCR's and microwave ovens weren't available for consumers yet.
Cable tv came to our neighborhood and there weren't any commercials.
There was no such thing as a remote control for the tv. I was the remote control. "Son, go change the channel on the tv."
Toothpaste came in tubes made of lead and there was no warning label on it. Now, toothpaste comes in a plastic tube and it has a warning label on it.
People didn't wear seat belts. Only race car drivers wore seatbelts.
The phone company owned your phone. You only rented it from them.
I didn't need a social security number. The only reason you needed a social security number back then was for starting a job.
At the movie theater, they would show cartoons before the main feature. Now they show advertisements.
The servicemen at the gas station pumped your gas for you. They also washed your windshield. This was included in the price of gas, which may have ranged from 30 to 75 cents a gallon.
Dimes, quarters, and half dollars were made of silver.
People didn't have credit cards. If you didn't have money for something, you couldn't buy it.
If you were at a picnic and ate lunch, you had to wait an hour before you went swimming.
When I was a teenager, I got a job as a dishwasher at a restaurant for less than minimum wage, which was $2.90 per hour in that year.
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and those were the 'good old days'?
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When I was a kid in the "good old days":
People had Polio.
A cancer diagnosis was a death sentence.
People didn't have seat belts, but ran into things anyway. They were usually stopped by the steering wheel in their chest. Or the windshield.
Talking to my dad overseas on the telephone was an expensive proposition that took half an hour to arrange.
Television had three channels.
A three day weather forecast was pure imagination.
I was twenty years away from buying my first motorcycle.
I was being raised Roman Catholic.
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When I was a kid,
I got a lot of whippings!
Should I stop there? Nah, there's no fun in that,
Playing barber shop with my sister earned me a whipping but it cost her a lot of hair!
Playing shoot the empty milk jug with my Daisy BB gun earned me a whipping but I got to shoot one of my sisters in the butt cause she didn't get out of my line of fire between me and the jug, I warned her, she didn't listen! Was it worth it, nah, actually, I got two whippins for that. One from my grand-maw cause she was keeping us young-ins at the time and she destroyed my Daisy beating it to pieces on the corner of our brick house and then another whipping when momma got home.
When Hurricane Fredric came through our town he took down about 45 pine trees in my momma's front and back yard and a whole bunch more all around our little neighborhood. A pine cone and especially the greens ones make for good war game bullets throwing'em at who ever wanted to play war or who ever didn't but could be provoked into a one! Yep, I got more than a few whippings for pine cone wars.
As I got a little older us neighborhood boys and girls found new war game bullets. Black Cat Bottle rockets and we had a Firework Stand just up the road!
My Daddy bought me a Go Kart one Christmas. That was the coolest thing ever to me until...... I figured out how to make it go faster by tying a string on the throttle and as I was driving with one hand I'd pull that string with the other and presto, instant super speed! I had to go show my girl who later became my wife, just how fast it was. We were flying for a short while until it blew up
My Grandma's said on more than one occasion, that I had a lot of ebow in me, don't know where she got that idea from but since I know there is no hell now, when we all reach gory, I'm gonna see her and remind her she still owes me a Daisy BB gun! ;D
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I remember when you pick up the phone and you heard the operator say, "Number please?" But that was before we got a house phone. Our first phone only had 4 digit numbers and we were on a 'party line' with several families were on the same line. Each had there on ring to know who the call was for, I think ours was 2 long and 1 short ring.
We had vinyl records and we could buy single 45's. Since they had a large hole in them you had to put a little yellow plastic thing in the center to put it on the record player. Then there was 8 tracks tape players, those tapes were about 6 times bigger than a cassette.
There wasn't carseats for babies when I was born, but I can remember my parents getting one for my little sister. It had 2 arms that hooked over the front seat.
Cartoons were only on TV on Saturday morning. I remember watching The Jetsons, The Huckleberry Hound Show, Rocky and Bullwinkle Show, Mighty Mouse and Space Ghost.
Some of the TV shows I watched were Gilligan's Island, The Flying Nun, Lost in Space, My Three Sons, The Beverly Hillbillies. We watched a lot of westerns too, that my Dad liked to watch.
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When I was a kid:
Schools were still segregated in the southern part of the US. :P
Movie theaters were segregated too. :o
René
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When I was a kid:
Schools were still segregated in the southern part of the US. :P
Movie theaters were segregated too. :o
René
Hi, Rene,
I remember the schools being segregated, too.
I was not prepared for the hate and the anger on both sides that ensued after the schools became desegregated. But I do remember all my black girlfriends in the second grade used to love to take out their big pick combs and comb my hair, haha! They loved my hair. :) Those were confusing times because I didn't understand why everybody hated everybody so much -- I was seven.
My brothers and sisters and I were pretty much raised by a black woman who came into our home to take care of us while our parents worked, and she loved us so much.
Later in life, I looked back on how Priscilla (the woman who raised us) treated everyone and how everyone loved her -- everyone and when I would be mistreated or used or abused or left out I just reminded myself that that never stopped her, it never got her down and she never retaliated. She never once mentioned or complained to us how she was so mistreated during the times of segregation. She was a very strong woman. I learned a lot from her. More from her than from my own parents.
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Hi Rene,
Segregated:
Separate but equal right? Not necessarily!!
I was fortunate to have grown up in Oxford, Pa where we had integrated schools in 1942-48 and I learned a little about how to appreciate playmates that were different from me.
We lived on the same block as the school and my playtime friend, Joe Louis Brown lived across the street. The town had a small business district and four policemen one of which was Mr. Viscount Nelson, a black officer that everyone loved as far as I knew. He guided us with tender authority, the active word being authority. No one spoke back to him where he could hear it.
Of course it helped tremendously that my parents insisted that I show respect to all adults no matter their last name being funny or their appearance being different from ours. I have to think that God was watching over and preparing me even then.
The "colored" kids lived in older, somewhat run down homes and wore hand-me-down clothes to school, but so did I.
World war two was a leveling situation what with food rationing and no new cars or tires for five or six years, we all learned to appreciate the smaller things and one another.
I think that it is absolutely amazing how God guides our path in life according to His will for us and teaches us to forgive offenses against us. I still cannot imagine how the uncalled folks can think that God cannot forgive offenses much more easily than He expects from us.
Kindly offered, indianabob
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The old days for me..as a deaf person-
No closed captioning, no phones, no internet, no emails. as a historical fact, people thought deafness meant you were "mentally retarded or demon possessed." It was only discovered recently that deaf people are not mentally retarded. They use to place deaf people in mental hospitals for decades. They still do that in South America to this day.
Now we have videophones, cc, internet and email and a better understanding of what deafness is.
Many thanks to God who allows technology to prevail... :)
I just wish it occurred sooner than later for deaf people born for ages before me :) I can't imagine how deaf people throughout history in the past felt. I am sure people thought the deaf were demon possessed or mental retarded at the time. as a consequence,they were either sterilized, killed, fed to animals or abandoned. Why does God let people perceive deaf people like that? It's just wrong.
Denise
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Hi Gracious and Denise,
God made mankind with choices for which they are accountable.
God allows men and women to marry anyone they choose and suffer the consequences.
God gives children to couples and then expects them to baby-sit carefully.
If they let their little children play in the street or next to a high cliff or in the tops of trees, there is always a possibility that injury or death will result.
What if God didn't allow us to make stupid mistakes? What would the world be like?
Would we appreciate God for interfering in our everyday decisions?
For example, you take a third helping of potatoes on your plate and God intervenes by making them just disappear from the plate. You didn't need them. They will make you fat. And you'll have bad dreams all night from over eating. Would you appreciate that or not?
OR you are late for work and speeding down the road and God slows the car back down to the safe, legal speed limit. Would you thank God or curse at Him?
I have often wondered why we get sick. Since God made Adam and Eve perfectly healthy and they passed on a perfectly good, functioning immune system to their kids, why does it not work as well as it should? Could it be the result of sin?
No, our parents made the world the way it is and God allowed it to happen. God is responsible for allowing it, but we and our fellow humans are to blame.
Just my not too humble opinion, indianabob
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John,
I will have to admit that I have it a little different than you have illustrated.
I realize that God does all of the things that you mentioned for His own purposes.
I believe at this time that this general rule applies to those who God is calling, choosing and electing to serve Him in the first resurrection.
I do not at this time understand that to mean that God micro-manages every event in the history of mankind.
The events that are recorded in scripture that defend your position are as far as we know isolated events designed to fulfill God's holy purpose and to keep God's plan on course.
I don't believe that God had to plan out every detail in advance the way some teach.
Even to the extent of knowing the personal names of every person ever created.
For the general population, I believe it is enough that God has the authority and power and wisdom to deal with events as they transpire to protect those He is using and to fulfill His plans.
I have not read anything in scripture to absolutely support your position.
I am of course ready to learn and to accept correction as the spirit of God gives me to see.
Indianabob
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Here are a few emails to give Ray's perspective of the Sovereignty of God.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2099.0.html ----
NO! NO, we absolutely do not have "free will." I realize that this concept is far too deep for most to comprehend and this is because it appears, it seems like, it feels like, we have the ability to make choices that are not caused, but this is just an illusion. There is no such thing as an event that happens anywhere in the Universe without a cause. And this is just as true for a thought in your mind as it is for an exploding star. And it is absolutely, totally, and repeatedly backed up by dozens and dozens of Scriptures.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3622.0.html ----
Yes, you have basically stated the facts correctly, however
your conclusion is erroneous.
You agree to believe that God does control all things in
the Universe, but then suggest, therefore GOD DOESN'T
NEED TO CONTROL ANYTHING! How do you
suppose it is that God DOES all the things He does? He
causes things to happen by the circumstances of His creation.
I HAD to write my papers, even though from my perspective,
it was I who volunteered to do so. And my paper has already
had a profound effect on thousands of people's thinking with
regards to Dr. Kennedy's evil and unscriptural sermons.
You can't decide to stay in bed and stop living unless it has
already been predetermined before the foundation of the world
that this is the course you MUST TAKE. We ARE the actors
on God's stage of life, and we WILL perform as God directs.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,629.0.html -----
There is a lot going on in your mind that you do not understand. I get letters just like yours all the time.
[1] You do not understand the difference between "choice" and "free choice."
[2] You do not understand the difference between "will" and "free will."
[3] You do not understand what it means for God to be Sovereign.
[4] You don't object to God KNOWING all things in advance, but you do object to God being in CONTROL of all things in advance.
Therefore, it is impossible for you to see the truth of this subject.
You state: "While the scriptures you quoted clearly state that God knows all before it occurs, before each choice of humanity is made, that still does not preclude our free will."
First of all, it is NOT "my theory" as you suggest. I got this truth from the Scriptures.
But your statement above leaves out something else that I did over and over in the Scriptures. I not only showed where God "knew" what would happen in advance, but I showed from the Scriptures where God both propphesies and CAUSED people to do what was necessary to bring about God's desired future. Remember that whole long section on the King of Assyria, for example?
Furthermore, God's foreknowledge does prevent us from having free will. If God KNOWS that we WILL take course A in our life, we certainly are NOT FREE to take course B. No one is "free" to do something that is not open unto him to choose. Yes, it is quite simple, but not many can understand and accept the Scriptural teaching on this subject. Meditate on it for a few thousand hours in light of all the Scriptures as I have, and maybe God will open it up to your understanding. But only if God has ALREADY DETERMINED that He will open it up to you..
God be with you,
Ray
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Okay, this is the way I see JFK's and Bob's posts:
Bob's post is from the relative perspective.
JFK's post is from the absolute perspective.
But only one of you is correct. Guess which one and I'll give you a dollar. :)
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she destroyed my Daisy beating it to pieces on the corner of our brick house and then another whipping when momma got home.
hahahahahahaha! the mental picture of this happening to your bb gun. priceless.
claudia
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Greetings to all. It's been a long time since I posted. Seeing Indianabobs and John from Kentuckys replys just reconfirms my belief that there somethings that I just do not understand about Gods way a thinkng and most likely never understand. One that came to mind is terrible physical abuse by parents to children who were born to them with no choice in the matter. God knows and predetermend who their parents are going to be before they are even born. I am sure all can see where I am gong with this. So As I stated before I just don't understand and never will untill God Himself choose to show me. If ever. Hey I can understand God using certin evils and sufferings for teaching but what does physical abuse to little children teach?? After 50yrs I still struggle about the lesson that God taught me back then. Don't get me wrong. I dont blame God, my mom or dad. I forgave my parents long ago and God sure does not need my forgiveness. It;s all according to His plan. Just remembering When I was a kid.
Darren
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Darren, maybe part of your answer is already in your post. God gave you something to forgive, and the grace to do so. All of life is about overcoming. God sets everything right. Before it's all over, the lion will lie down with the kid. He's given you, in your forgiveness of them, a taste of that overcoming. He'll feed them too. Hang in there.
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Hi Darren,
Here are some emails where Ray discusses some of the reasons why we see... as you asked "terrible physical abuse by parents to children who were born to them with no choice in the matter." Ray's point may have been why people have sex/rape little children, but it would be the same reasons as why they beat their children or caused them to suffer in other ways as well. (I underlined a sentence that I feel is critical for us to understand.)
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=224.msg1868#msg1868 -----------
I have explained this many times, but there are few who can understand it. God created man subject to VANITY (failure). God made mankind that way. It is absolutely stupid for theologians to deny it. God plainly tells us this in Rom. 8:20.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Man has naturally a natural mind, a mind of flesh, called in Scripture the "carnal mind" and it naturally HATES God and cannot keep His law (Rom. 8:7).
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
But if you or anyone does not even believe these Scriptures, why go further? God made man with testerone. His natural inclination is to have sex with pretty women--OFTEN.
Then God turns around and tells man to not have sex with pretty women AT ALL--only in marriage. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCE man to desire sex with women. Man desires that all on his own. Some men desire sex with children. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCED men to have sex with children. Some men do it naturally. Are you following me?
God could stop all men from having sex with children. But He doesn't. That's because God has a plan for the human race that involves humans doing things so horrible, that they will eventually learn to never trust their own heart and mind again. They must have faith and trust in God through His Holy Spirit.
All men would have sex with little children, if they grew up under the same circumstances as the men who do have sex with little children. This is a sobbering thought that few theologians alive have ever contemplated for more than 2 and one half seconds. And women have their particular natural inclination to commit horrible sins. This is God's creation, not mine. This is God's plan with humans, not mine. I can justify God in all His ways. Most can't. God will rectify and reconcile all things that has ever been committed.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2354.0 ---------------
You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?" It is BOTH. Listen: God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE. That's it. That's all there is to it. That IS the principle. That IS the Truth. That IS what the Bible teaches. It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices." You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation. It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."
So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS? Well, does He? Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls? That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will. They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right? Wrong, wrong, wrong!
Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them. He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things. And who created the Devil? That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things. Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money. God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT. They volunteer with little outside influence. God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak. Eve couldn't help but sin. God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.
I hardly know what else to tell you. God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams. They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God. So then we don't make choices, right? NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES. It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see. Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED. And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that? He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.
I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it. Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!
God be with you,
Ray
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Greetings to all. It's been a long time since I posted. Seeing Indianabobs and John from Kentuckys replys just reconfirms my belief that there somethings that I just do not understand about Gods way a thinkng and most likely never understand. One that came to mind is terrible physical abuse by parents to children who were born to them with no choice in the matter. God knows and predetermend who their parents are going to be before they are even born. I am sure all can see where I am gong with this. So As I stated before I just don't understand and never will untill God Himself choose to show me. If ever. Hey I can understand God using certin evils and sufferings for teaching but what does physical abuse to little children teach?? After 50yrs I still struggle about the lesson that God taught me back then. Don't get me wrong. I dont blame God, my mom or dad. I forgave my parents long ago and God sure does not need my forgiveness. It;s all according to His plan. Just remembering When I was a kid.
Darren
Hi Darren
I was just having this conversation with my sister Cheri the other day. We both know how you feel, sadly enough. We made it through the abuse, our mother did not. The last seven years of her life were spent in a state run nursing home having suffered a major stroke due to a blood clot the size of a "small grapefruit" on the left side of her brain. She was then further abused (raped likely). My dad went up to see her and her only somewhat functioning arm was broken -- black and blue from the clavicle to the tips of her fingers. The hospital staff said she fell out of her bed, but she couldn't have because she couldn't move -- she was paralyzed on her right side and could barely move and she couldn't speak. I think she was trying to fight off her attacker and he broke her arm.
When the doctors shaved my mom's head to get to the blood clot they found multiple scars on her scalp from the abuse inflicted on her by my father. And when my dad tried to sue the doctors who he claimed didn't "find the blood clot in time" (but really it was for nothing other than money--not because he wanted to help my mother), no attorney would represent him.
I remember going up to the hospital to see her with my brother Vince -- we were 8 and 10 at the time. We'd begged my dad for two years to go see her and he didn't say a thing to us for the hour and half drive to the state run nursing home in Hagerstown, Maryland where he stuck her; but when we entered the hospital, he said, "Whatever you do, don't call her Paula!" (That was the name of dad's current girlfriend he had living out our house while mom was being "taken care of" in the nursing home.) As if we could ever confuse our mother with that lunatic he had sleeping in her bed.
You would have thought that would have made dad not want to beat us any more, but he did and eventually the law came in and took my brothers away from my dad. It made my dad so angry he refused to have contact with any of his nine children for 20 years, until my brother Vince became a Maryland State Trooper and my dad went to his police barracks and begged his forgiveness. Maybe because he thought Vince would take out his gun and shoot the m-f'er. But he wouldn't have.
You should see my dad now.
When you see stuff like that, it makes you question God, but I feel honored to have been hand-picked to suffer at least some of the abuse that our Lord and Savior has suffered.
When I was a kid, there were no laws in place to protect children or women from abusive fathers/husbands. That changed in my lifetime. That's pretty cool.
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When I was a kid in the "good old days":
People had Polio.
A cancer diagnosis was a death sentence.
People didn't have seat belts, but ran into things anyway. They were usually stopped by the steering wheel in their chest. Or the windshield.
Talking to my dad overseas on the telephone was an expensive proposition that took half an hour to arrange.
Television had three channels.
A three day weather forecast was pure imagination.
I was twenty years away from buying my first motorcycle.
I was being raised Roman Catholic.
Lewis,
I agree with your points expressed above, but the Seat Belt Argument is not a done deal, meaning, sometimes the use of seat belts can lead to dangerous results too, at least that's my understanding and Yes, I use my seat belt, the fine is too stiff, but I think that the choice should be optional, not based on a meddling ever intrusive Political system. Often, as a result of their meddling, I feel that I'm in Kindergarten, ;).
No Offense intended, just my opinion, Samson.
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let me pour out some things that bother me.. I am frustrated...maybe you can bring in insights to help me "see"
Just maybe- just maybe.. its religion's way of explaining away why the great evils occur. Granted we learn so much about love through experiencing evils but still. we learn about love through love as well. I just don't see the reason why we need to experience extreme evil at all. There is no logic to the story. people do rape/kill young children- they use malnourished children in Africa as shark, crocoicle bait when fishing. they abuse/molest children, young women. they take in pleasure of beheading some one else to fulfill their righteousness, There are worse evils I could name here, but are they even necessary- Wait till you experience the worse and you tell me how it is justified? I would not subject my children to those kinds of extreme evils to teach them something.
We learn from our not so perfect parents, it becomes who we are. It makes us determined to do better. If we learned from the giver of life who is already perfect, we would be perfect already by the time we were adults.
Bible says our minds are already a failure because God set us to be weak. bible says we will fail anyway even if we strive after righteousness, Why subject us to failure when we can succeed?
How does that help any of us? How is that truly glorifying God? It's like making mankind handicapped on purpose then fix them? Its like God admitted to that? How is that fair?
We come here with no memory whatsoever- no memory of the truth- and we grow up in a crappy world that's filled with good and evil and we're left to fail anyway and leave only a elite few to rescue the rest of handicapped mankind that God handicapped in the first place?
We have no clue to who God really is. we can only guess so much-Why create the elite few to rescue mankind and promise them great honors, rewards, ruling with Christ, when all of mankind can do that too? its like rewarding the elites with high rewards and rewarding the rest of mankind with regular rewards, but not the same rewards for overcoming the world? comparing the many as tares or bad stuff while comparing the elites as wheat, the good stuff.. or talks about pruning the tree, pruning the bad parts and keeping the good parts so that the good parts can produce fruit. it seems to refer to the rest of mankind as bad parts and referring to the elites as good parts to make sure they produce fruit?
It doesn't make sense.. when they could have had the same thing too. They had to endure as well and they were set to fail... how is that fair in comparable to elites and the mankind?
They even mention a new Jerusalem with 12 gates named after the apostles just because they were the first "fathers" that initiated the Good news Gospel. Why didn't Jesus write his own gospels, the source from the source himself? I don't even understand the need of animal sacrifice. How does that help you or me.. How does sacrificing Jesus on the cross saves us? I would understand if it was HIS LIFE that saved us. He showed us the way, he gave us the example, I would understand that, but how does resurrection to life, how does his death, how does his virgin birth to prove his divinity prove anything? even stories of virgin births and resurrections in other religion stories before Christ are extremely popular. They're popular in Greek mythology- they're popular in eygptian mythology, They re popular in Hindu mythology. They're popular in many different religions.
Maybe it's our way of explaining things that are unexplained. Bible says God can fix everyone in an instant? Why make us handicapped in first place? why not fix our minds now and be done with it? I would understand if we are subject to evil if we understood what the truth was in the first place.. I'm just trying to understand..
Denise
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Denise, I would like to know if you have read Ray's articles on The Myth of Free will? Your post indicate to me that you lack basic understanding on this matter. It just baffles me that you are so confused if you have read these articles. Now if you have read them and still do not understand, sometimes it requires rereading again so you have some understanding to apply as you begin reading. I would just like to know where you are coming from with these questions?
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hey Kat,
Yes I have read the installments on myth of free will. I already understood it. I am totally fine with it. It just boils down to us learning and overcoming the beast within us. I will read it again later if I still don't get it. I just don't understand the need of extreme evils. I know We are suffering, enduring, and overcoming and in the end, we will be free. According to the bible, We are suffering due to the causes He caused, the laws he created to make all things operate under. I know it will be the greatest feeling in the world once we accomplish this "age". I just don't get the logic on few and the many. I am just saying There are also no logic in virgin birth to prove a divinity, Jesus' death, resurrection, animal sacrifices in OT. I do find logic in his life though. it makes sense.
What if All of this is NONSENSE that God is trying to free us from? There are many religions- various beliefs are part of the series of effects that he "CAUSED". They are almost similar. throughout history- with religions-even Judaism in OT, they sacrifice innocent humans and animals, and so on. What if all of this is nonsense? What if That is what God is saying to us all along, to come out of her my people? What if all this religions, including Judaism, christanity- Hindu, Islam, etc are the woman that we are to come out of? What if we are to be free from all that nonsense? they keep us from truly knowing God? Revelations says the whore will be made naked- which means- all the beliefs associated with it will be gone? Jesus never made himself any different from anyone else. I know Ray showed scripture that says God will smite the shepherd and scatter the sheep. it's somewhere. what What if this is what God is working on? The wisdom of all the religions is foolishness to God? What if God is trying to put a stop to all the crazy religions- beliefs, etc, as they rob people of their relationship with God, the giver of life.
Lets just say God is shaking the foundation of my heart right now..I really want to be free from all of this. I just want people to just love one another. I'm sick of all the indifference that divide people up. And what divides people up is mostly because of religion itself. Not the only reason of course but it is mainly the religions that divides people up.
Denise
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I just don't understand the need of extreme evils.
Denise, with all due respect I would say quit trying to figure it out. We know enough of God's character to know that he is doing what he is doing for a very good reason and he's proved his love for us time and time again. Is it not enough to accept what is....that God is smarter than we are and that all will be fine in the end? One can drive themselves nuts trying to figure out what God has not given you to figure out.
I know We are suffering, enduring, and overcoming and in the end, we will be free.
Is that not enough?
Peace......
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Arion,
Thanks! Your words hit a chord. I just need to trust that I am in good hands and everything will work out just fine in the end no matter what I do. You are right. God is smarter than any of us. Way smarter- His wisdom far exceeds ours. our is just a taste of the fullness of what he has. You are right. Thanks again.
Sometimes I just need a reminder. sometimes I just forget that I am already in good hands and I need to relax and live life and try to let God help me in his own time and way.
I know Ray talks about this often but it didn't hit a chord or click completely until now. I think my problem is Trust... sometimes I just want to know who God is. I want to know everything about him, I'm waiting and wanting for the light to come on... I want to "make it" I want to understand. I want to succeed. I want to be free... It just didn't click.... until now.. That everything will be fine in the end. Just relax... live life..life to the fullest and I just need to trust God that he will take care of me.. instead of me taking care of myself... I'm like the dog that's timid and stressed out and God is trying to tell me that everything will be OK.
Denise
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Denise, what you don't seems to understand is that this age with all it's suffering and evil, the deceptions of religion and all of this 'nonsense' is the darkness that is exactly what was meant to be, caused to be by the sovereign God. Why? Because every person that lives must eat of the tree of good and evil, that's this life... we have this physical existence so we can gain an experience in living life. All people that are living or have ever lived are learning through all the contracts in this life about good and evil, this is the backdrop we all must have and the sin we are saved from. Here is an email the helps explain this.
http://bible-truths.com/email6.htm ----------------------------
It is true that there are many mysteries that we do not understand. And yet, there is much that we do understand, at least in part.
God is GOOD. What IS good? How does anyone BECOME GOOD?
Take a very close look at ANY VIRTUE, Jake, and see HOW IT BECAME A VIRTUE! Is "truthfulness" a virtue if everyone always was and always will be "truthful?" No, because there is NOTHING TO COMPARE IT WITH! Is "patience" a virtue that one can buy at a department store? Can "patience" be developed and achieved QUICKLY AND WITHOUT DISTRESS? I think not.
There is nothing, and I mean absolutely NOTHING that we can come to understand as part of our knowledge, that is not understood by how that bit of knowledge CONTRASTS with OTHER pieces of knowledge. Everything that exists is only understood by contrasts. How does one know what "big" is if he doesn't know what "small" is, and vice-a-versa? How can we say something is rough if we don't have any concept of smooth? Up is only up in relation or contrast to down. Light is contrasted with darkness, etc., etc., etc.
Do you see where this is going? If we are to appreciate "good," it is essential that we have an experience of "EVIL." If we are to appreciate (I mean REALLY appreciate) LIFE, then it is essential that we ALL DIE!!!
And so, God in His infinite wisdom, has provided all of these things--we call it CREATION--so that mankind might experience all that is necessary to humble, educate, experience, and appreciate, the wonderful things that God has prepared for us.
All the ugly, evil, and misery of life can be likened to the scaffolding of a building. While creation of the new building is in progress, the scaffolding is an eye-sore, and serves NO PRACTICAL PURPOSE except the actual creation of the building. But, when the beautiful building is completed, we tear down the ugly scaffolding and throw it away--it serves no more useful purpose to our completed building, EVER. And so we read that even DEATH, the LAST ENEMY, will be ABOLISHED (I Cor. 15:26)!!
I hope this helps your understanding a little better.
Sincerely,
Ray
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So for now and until Christ returns to usher in the next age this is what we have, people living and dying to gain an experience of good and evil. Now there is a very small exception to this and that is where the 'few' come in. You see when Jesus Christ returns He will have an army with Him that will rule with Him to bring salvation to the vast number of humans that will be raised in the resurrection of the dead, the 'many.'
So God has predetermined from the foundation of the world 'a few,' to be prepared to rule with Christ. These few are the chosen and given the Holy Spirit indwelling, required to understand the truth, and they are being taught (mainly through chastisement) righteousness. Just like Paul said "I die daily" the chosen must also give up their lives for Christ in order to rule with Him.
John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
Rom 6:3 Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
v. 4 Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.
v. 5 For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection;
v. 6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin.
v. 7 For he who died has been justified from sin.
v. 8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanks Kat for your words. It helped.
God gave me something else to think about too.
I need to keep in mind that the bible is more geared toward people who have the natural inclination in the spiritual eyes and ears department. people can try but gifts are unique. The same thing goes for people who want to know how to make unique, wacky or one of a kind clothes, or how to cut wood into art or how to paint like van gouh. It is going to be a struggle if it's not something that comes to you naturally inclined. if that makes sense?
You know the bible says we have to have the spiritual eyes and ears in order to be able to understand and see. That is God's gift to certain people. It is given by God.
It is the same example as when God gives certain people gifts to do a certain something like, for example, wood art. That takes skill to do. That is God's gift to certain people.
God gave some people the gift of being able to make unique clothes that is not any other. That takes eye, wild imagination, and skill. That is God's gift to certain people
God gave some people the gift of empathy where one can counsel one another during grieving process. That takes a gift to be able to see and relate. That is God's gift to certain people.
God gave some people the gift of writing- The ones that are so good.. that takes skill. That is God's gift to certain people.
God gave some people the gift of great love for athletics. That is God's gift to certain people.
God gave some people tthe gift of great intelligence. That is God's gift to certain people.
God gave some people the gift of wisdom. That is God's gift to certain people.
God gave some people the gift of spiritual discernment. that is God's gift to certain people.
The common denominator of all of this.. is all gifts are unique and few. the all different gifts are all divided up to all people. Not everyone can do the same gifts others have.
For some, It may be difficult that no matter how hard you try. While It may come natural to some people. It is because God gave them the skill while he did not give others.
So for those God gave the spiritual eyes and ears- It may come natural to them and they just work at it. Even people with gifts, they have to practice but they do have the skill/talent/eye to do them. It may be proven difficult for others that was not given the gift.
The common denominator for all of this is that all of them are God's children-They are no different from one another. They are just made unique. That's it.
You know how it is,
for example who try to be lawyers due to family reasons;when they were best suited as doctors or vet. They are miserable until they live up to their natural gift that God gave them. You are never truly happy until you do the things that fulfills you.
Bible says It is easier when your will is God's will. The same will. It just comes natural to you.. it just comes to you. you just know what fulfills you. You just do it. If you don't have that same will for that spiritual eyes and ears. it's hard to do it. Its like fighting yourself. It should be your upmost desire. something that fulfills you.
You are right. We are to die daily. we just need the natural inclination to do it. God has to give us that will to do it. We cannot do it by ourselves. We have to have the will to do it. God will give you that will if he wants you to do that.. Other than hat, it will be a struggle. like Jesus had the will to do God's will. That came natural to him. It was in him. He had what he needed. We all don't have that.. You know how it is, if you do something that is opposite of what you are.. you become miserable. It becomes a struggle- It requires will power. God has to give u that.
I understand now. Gifts are unique. God promises that everyone will have it one day. I need to trust that. God knows what he is doing.
It's funny- I read about it in the bible. It just didn't click or hit close to home. I thought i understood but when the right words come- when people explain it from a different angle- it clicks. Thanks Arion and Kat.
About the necessary of extreme evils. I don't understand that part yet- I know we are experiencing the consequences of partaking of the tree of good and evil.
Thoughts come to me as this... Adam and Eve did partake of the tree of good and evil. we did not. But then again, Adam and Eve are our ancestors. Once they evolve, the rest of their seed has to evolve as well. We evolved to a point where we start seeing what is not there. Before they had the perception of evil, All they knew was Life. that's it. They don't see anything evil about it. They just saw everything as life. perception of evil is what separates us from God. Bible seems to say that the evils has to worsen before we gets better? maybe that is the purpose of extreme evils? Sometimes it requires extreme evil for us to see the truth? I don't know.. one day we'll understand why.
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I began partaking of the fruit of the tree of good and evil the day I was born. I don't think I'm 'special' that way, but I only want to speak for myself. :)
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Hi Denise,
I need to keep in mind that the bible is more geared toward people who have the natural inclination in the spiritual eyes and ears department.
You are thinking in the right direction, but :) It is not 'natural' to have spiritual eyes and ears, actually it's the opposite of what is natural.
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
Yes it is a gift from God that anyone is given eyes to see these truths and that gift is the Holy Spirit indwelling.
John 14:26 and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and remind you of all things that I said to you.
The Holy Spirit from God is what must increase within us and we (our carnality) must decrease or die daily, so to become more like Jesus Christ. That's what the Holy Spirit will accomplish in us.
Php 3:10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and may share His sufferings, becoming like Him in His death,
Adam and Eve did partake of the tree of good and evil. we did not.
The tree of good and evil that Adam and Eve ate/partook of was a representation of what all of humanity will/is doing. We are all eating/living/partaking of good and evil as we live this life in all it's many degrees and extremes. Though I believe that the whole garden scene was literal, it represents/symbolizes something far greater. Because we all have followed in their footsteps and eat of the tree of good and evil (symbolically). Since our natural mind is carnal and enmity to God, in doing so we sin, as we are far to weak to resist it, and all that sin shall die.
Rom 8:6-7 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace, because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
1Co 15:21 For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man.
v. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
So the Holy Spirit is a gift and God has already chosen who He will give it to, none of us know who those chosen are, so keep on seeking.
Act 17:26-27 Besides, He makes out of one every nation of mankind, to be dwelling on all the surface of the earth, specifying the setting of the seasons and the bounds of their dwelling, for them to be seeking God, if, consequently, they may surely grope for Him and may be finding Him, though to be sure, not far from each one of us is He (CLV)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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denise, i have never met you, but i know what it's like to want to know the details. how over thinking some things is futile. and exhausting. i read an article online today, and it made me think back to you, and the many questions that swirl around in your head and your heart. i am not saying that you suffer from depression or ocd. the woman who wrote the article does.
the following is the part of her article which reminded me of you. and i pass it on out of love for you denise.
"your ocd is in your thoughts. you think about things to the point of obsessing about them." (to which,
when the author of the article was told these things by a psychologist said, "well, that's just awesome." ??? )
anyway, i just wanted to tell you not to fret about the things that have no obvious answers. One Day, all things will be made known.
stay hungry for His Word denise. seek and ye SHALL find. knock, and it SHALL be opened unto you. His Words feed us and bring us strength in our spirits. through Jesus Christ. the Living Word. the Door which we knock upon.
claudia
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Thanks Claudia-
You are right. It does sound like an obsession. It was due to selfish reasons. Wanting to "make it" Wanting to understand everything, wanting to understand what God is - I Know no one can answer that. No one knows. All we have is this bible that tells us limited details about God. We can only know so much- why push myself over the edge just trying to over think things..
You know what? I am just going to relax a whole alot. Thanks to some wisdom that was shined recently. There is very little you can do with the limited knowledge and wisdom. You can only do things that God gives you. not the things God did not give you.
I am just going to have to trust God with my life and know that I am in good hands. All i can do is focus on my life and live my life to the fullest. God gave us the basics to focus on.. Learn to love one another- love my enemies.
The thing is.. I don't know God. How can I truly love God with all my might, my mind, my soul, my spirit, if I don't even know him? There are many things bible says about him. It doesn't seem to answer my questions about God, That's the reason for my drive..but then again, we are limited. We have limited knowledge and wisdom. I just have to learn where to stop and just let it go.. and experience life. learn from it with what God gives me. not with God did not give me.
the scriptures says things like at judgement day- Jesus or God told the sinners to get away from him because he never knew them. That's the scary part. But I am just going to have to trust GOd with my life. If He wnats me to know him, He will make it so. He will make it apparent. no point driving- no point trying to direct. Im just gonna give up. God knows what he has to do if he wants me to truly know him.
Thanks again
Denise
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Hi Denise,
I need to keep in mind that the bible is more geared toward people who have the natural inclination in the spiritual eyes and ears department.
You are thinking in the right direction, but :) It is not 'natural' to have spiritual eyes and ears, actually it's the opposite of what is natural.
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
Yes it is a gift from God that anyone is given eyes to see these truths and that gift is the Holy Spirit indwelling.
John 14:26 and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and remind you of all things that I said to you.
The Holy Spirit from God is what must increase within us and we (our carnality) must decrease or die daily, so to become more like Jesus Christ. That's what the Holy Spirit will accomplish in us.
Php 3:10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and may share His sufferings, becoming like Him in His death,
Adam and Eve did partake of the tree of good and evil. we did not.
The tree of good and evil that Adam and Eve ate/partook of was a representation of what all of humanity will/is doing. We are all eating/living/partaking of good and evil as we live this life in all it's many degrees and extremes. Though I believe that the whole garden scene was literal, it represents/symbolizes something far greater. Because we all have followed in their footsteps and eat of the tree of good and evil (symbolically). Since our natural mind is carnal and enmity to God, in doing so we sin, as we are far to weak to resist it, and all that sin shall die.
Rom 8:6-7 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace, because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
1Co 15:21 For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man.
v. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
So the Holy Spirit is a gift and God has already chosen who He will give it to, none of us know who those chosen are, so keep on seeking.
Act 17:26-27 Besides, He makes out of one every nation of mankind, to be dwelling on all the surface of the earth, specifying the setting of the seasons and the bounds of their dwelling, for them to be seeking God, if, consequently, they may surely grope for Him and may be finding Him, though to be sure, not far from each one of us is He (CLV)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Thanks Kat.
The spiritual eyes and ears may not be natural to humans but it is given by God regardless. It is a gift that many of us do not have. same applies to other gifts God gives to humans. not everyone has the same gifts. I just have to trust God with my life. Whatever he wants. He's the boss. He's doing all the work. Fine.. He is just making it hard for many of us to know him. but I understand the reasons. It's frustrating though. Honestly, I have no clue who God is. I don't know him personally. If he wants to me to know him, like Jesus did.. he will make it so. no point fighting it. He will do the work, the dragging. I just have to trust him with my life.
Thanks again,
Denise
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Denise,
I really admire your honesty. What you say is not "pretty" but I don't think it shocks God. I sincerely believe that if you just wait for God, He will reveal Himself to you and show you the plans and purposes He has for your life. It seems to me that you are totally bare before Him, angst and all. One thing's for sure He could never accuse you of hypocrisy:) I will pray for you and you can pray for me.
Onelove
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Greetings all, thanks to those who gave me some insight on my post. It had taken many decades to learn how to forgive. I had got to a point in my life where the hate was a cancer that just ate me up. My mom and dad was not reaching out to me in forgiveness. They had many yrs to do so. I just got tired and prayed everynight for The Lord to show me HOW to forgive. I did not know how. Anyway I learn some hard and valueable life lessons. I would not treat my family the way I grew up. Yrs latter I can see the lessons. Not at that time.
Revilonivek: I hear ya, Why extream evil? Good n evil, right n wrong, to be or not to be. That is the question I asked of me. I been hear at BT since Katrina 06 and I have come to understand through Ray's teachings 3 undeniable truths.
1. There is a God
2. I am not HE
3. there are things that I will never understand until and if ever God shows me.
I just try to leave certain question alone and not dwell on them. I need to make it through today. Tomorrow will bring its own troubles. I deal with tomorrow when It gets here.
Thanks BT.