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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: lilitalienboi16 on April 22, 2013, 11:43:36 PM
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So I know we are called out of babylon.
I know there are many of us.
I know God chooses and I also know that He fills us with His spirit as an earnest downpayment, a promise of the future ransom to come.
I know that only those who endure to the end are overcomers and that we can't know if we've overcome until the ressurection or I suppose in paul's case, the very last moments of our lives.
My question is, does having God's spirit in us, which I assume a great majority of us here and I'm confident to say I believe I have, equate to being chosen? If that is the case, does being chosen not necessarily mean you are an overcomer then?
Or is it that many are called and given God's spirit, but only a few from them are selected and being selected or chosen means you will overcome in the end?
Hope I'm not confusing anyone with this. I know it sounds slightly convoluted so please forgive me.
Thanks for any answers.
God bless,
Alex
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So I know we are called out of babylon.
I know there are many of us.
I know God chooses and I also know that He fills us with His spirit as an earnest downpayment, a promise of the future ransom to come.
I know that only those who endure to the end are overcomers and that we can't know if we've overcome until the ressurection or I suppose in paul's case, the very last moments of our lives.
My question is, does having God's spirit in us, which I assume a great majority of us here and I'm confident to say I believe I have, equate to being chosen? If that is the case, does being chosen not necessarily mean you are an overcomer then?
Or is it that many are called and given God's spirit, but only a few from them are selected and being selected or chosen means you will overcome in the end?
Hope I'm not confusing anyone with this. I know it sounds slightly convoluted so please forgive me.
Thanks for any answers.
God bless,
Alex
Hi Alex,
I'll take a stab at a portion of your post.
In your 2nd sentence above you state, "I know there are many of us." Did you mean to say, not many?
In Romans 11:4, Paul quoted from the OT, "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men (and women) who have not bowed the knee to Baal."
Out of the billions that have been and will be, only a small few, "a remnant" (Romans 11:5) have been called and chosen.
Only my opinion, but I believe the few feel the anointing of the Spirit within themselves. Jesus rules in the Temple of their heart. It is like a Fire within, burning out all that is not of value.
John
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So I know we are called out of babylon.
I know there are many of us.
I know God chooses and I also know that He fills us with His spirit as an earnest downpayment, a promise of the future ransom to come.
I know that only those who endure to the end are overcomers and that we can't know if we've overcome until the ressurection or I suppose in paul's case, the very last moments of our lives.
My question is, does having God's spirit in us, which I assume a great majority of us here and I'm confident to say I believe I have, equate to being chosen? If that is the case, does being chosen not necessarily mean you are an overcomer then?
Or is it that many are called and given God's spirit, but only a few from them are selected and being selected or chosen means you will overcome in the end?
Hope I'm not confusing anyone with this. I know it sounds slightly convoluted so please forgive me.
Thanks for any answers.
God bless,
Alex
Hi Alex,
I'll take a stab at a portion of your post.
In your 2nd sentence above you state, "I know there are many of us." Did you mean to say, not many?
In Romans 11:4, Paul quoted from the OT, "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men (and women) who have not bowed the knee to Baal."
Out of the billions that have been and will be, only a small few, "a remnant" (Romans 11:5) have been called and chosen.
Only my opinion, but I believe the few feel the anointing of the Spirit within themselves. Jesus rules in the Temple of their heart. It is like a Fire within, burning out all that is not of value.
John
Hi John,
Thanks for taking a stab at this ol beast here!
Let me clarify some more;
I did not miss type. When I say, I know there are many of us, I mean the MANY CALLED. Hence, many of us. (Remember this is merely a statement based on a premise i'm assuming for the sake of the question, it does not mean I necessarily mean we are merely 'called' and not 'chosen.' It does however serve to demonstrate my confusion. Hence why I offered two options.
My confusion lies in whether the MANY CALLED are US (those who are CALLED out of babylon) here at bibletruths and perhaps some others around the world as well [as opposed to the CHURCH, or the 'EARTH' - and not the 'SEA' of humanity) or are the MANY CALLED, in fact, all the 2-3billion christians around the world?
If the answer is that the MANY CALLED are the ones IN BABYLON and that we are "chosen" as we are CALLED OUT of babylon, does that mean that the CHOSEN and the ELECT OF GOD [The overcomers] are not necessarily one in the same? As in, all overcomers are chosen but not all chosen are overcomers?
If the answer is that WE [those called OUT of babylon] are the MANY CALLED, than are the FEW CHOSEN - ONLY those who overcome? Thus preventing us from knowing if we are chosen or not since only those who endure to the end are overcomers.
Did that make any sense? Like I said.. this may come off as convoluted.. its not my intent I apologize.
I believe however, in asking my question here that I Have in fact, reminded myself of what I had forgotten.
We are called to Christ and this happens in captivity, in babylon, we are called out of Babylon and if we come out of her we become chosen by God and if we endure to the end, we are overcomers aka the elect of God. We cannot know if we overcome to the end until after the resurrection. The many called [those still in captivity of babylon] don't have the spirit of God and only those that "come out of her my people" (the chosen) are imparted Gods spirit. Of course, this is all dependent upon God as we cannot do this of our own strength or will.
Am I right in believing that? I think thats what I understood but had confused myself over time, now i'm unconfusing myself.. lol. xD
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Yes, I think you are unconfusing yourself. ;D
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IF God Spirit is with us and sin no longer have dominion over us until our last race, then i would say that we are called and chosen! :) ;)
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Well I’m confused but then that’s not surprising for me. How are we called out of Babylon. I thought you were chosen or not. Isn’t if you are in Babylon you are the called. Like Ray says here:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2049.msg16705.html#msg16705 (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2049.msg16705.html#msg16705)
There are the called and the few chosen. The few chosen come out of the called masses of the congregation.
I’m thinking there is only 2 groups the called and the chosen, so if you are come out of the church where you were once called are you now chosen but then we don’t know if we are chosen so which group are we in or is there like a third group of the unsure because that’s how I feel. So I guess I’m an unsure but that’s not biblical you are either the called or the chosen so is God playing some cruel game when you feel stuck in the middle and are unsure what you are.
If you are chosen which you don’t know then you must overcome, you simply have no choice. I’m confused as have read some on here say I have such and such problems with certain sins therefore I know I’m not one of God’s elect, well how do you know whether you will or not overcome those things in this life. If God says you will then you will, no matter how you feel at the moment, why do some second guess God on these matters I just don’t understand that. If it’s God’s will then it will be.
It sounds like there is the many called and then the called out of the church and then the chosen, surely that is not right. Two groups not three, how come I feel I am in the third group then?
I found this section from Ray helpful:
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html (http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html)
THE "CALLED" AND THE "NOT CALLED"
ARE YOU "CALLED AND CHOSEN" OR JUST "CALLED?"
Maybe a lot of my confusion still comes from my time in church with the called thinking they are the chosen and then those who believe they are the real chosen ones amongst the chosen ones. They just come across as arrogant and full of themselves. There the ones who walk a bit taller than everyone else – no offence to tall people.
What are you if you are called out of Babylon but don’t overcome, then are you not still in Babylon?
What does you line mean Alex "As in, all overcomers are chosen but not all chosen are overcomers?" If you are chosen by God then you must be an overcomer to be one of His chosen ones?
Isn’t it all the matters is that many are called but few are chosen, however ALL will be saved which after all is the good news.
Sorry I’m just getting confused with the use of the words called out, the called and the chosen. It’s making my head spin.
No offence intended Alex. I'm just trying to figure out where I stand in amongst all this stuff. At this stage it don't look so good for me being in the unsure category but thy will be done. I will be in the right place one day, just not sure which day.
Rhys
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Jos 7:13 Up, sanctify the people, and say, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow: for thus saith the LORD God of Israel, There is an accursed thing in the midst of thee, O Israel: thou canst not stand before thine enemies, until ye take away the accursed thing from among you.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
God always separates his own. But all the glory is his. History is full of people and whacko's who thought they were special. From this comes denominations and false religions. Our safety if we are the chosen is to remain humble because only God can raise us up. I left my church because I could no longer bear witness with their teachings. If perchance I am destined for greatness then it is all God. I have no glory except what he has birthed in me. But we are being refined and taken from glory to glory. It makes only sense that the road be narrower as we go forward and populated by less people.
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Hi Alex,
Here is the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
Mat 13:24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;
v. 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.
v. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.
v. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, "Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
v. 28 He said to them, "An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, "Do you want us then to go and gather them up?'
v. 29 But he said, "No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.
v. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.""'
If you noticed in verse 24 Jesus said, "the kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field." Okay the other Parable of the Sower and the explanation of it and do notice that these (seeds) are those that had "the word of the kingdom"... "sown in his heart," receives it with joy," "hears the word." These do not sound like Babylon to me, as they had heard and initially received the truth.
Mat 13:18 "Therefore hear the parable of the sower:
v. 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.
v. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
v. 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
v. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
Now in the next verse you will see what those elected to be in His kingdom are like.
v. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Isn't there also the 'not called'?
The world at large, the church out of the world, and His church out of the church?
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Hi Rys,
Sorry I confused you, I was confusing myself but all is well now!
I think perhaps you might be confused on what it means to "overcome?" Maybe..
What does overcoming, mean to you? Is it overcoming babylon or something more?
Also, as Dave said, There is the world at large, the sea of humanity which is not yet called to Christ. The earth which is a bit higher than the sea and then the heavens which are even higher than the earth.
At school right now so I must be brief! Apologies!
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No problem. I was already confused anyway. Good question though as have been thinking about the same thing. Will have to think a bit more about it and respond later.
I find the Fonz dancing helps me at times like this:
(http://i1323.photobucket.com/albums/u588/rhysos1/Giffonz_zps5f22ae42.gif) (http://s1323.photobucket.com/user/rhysos1/media/Giffonz_zps5f22ae42.gif.html)
Also known as Fonzie or Arthur Herbert Fonzarelli from Happy Days, as he use to say........... Aaaaeeeyyy!
Overcoming sins in your life Alex
Rhys ;)
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Hi everyone. I’m new here and haven’t participated in any of the discussions, but I would like to try to contribute to this one.
Before I start I would like to say that I have read virtually everything that I can find that Ray has written, some of it many times over. I absolutely believe all that he has to say, but I think that maybe I interpret a few things differently than some of you. As Ray continuously says “you have to pay attention to every word”, I think that includes his words.
When Ray talks about “No Free Will”, I believe that with all my heart, but I do believe that God grants us freedom of choice. I think there are examples of this all through scripture beginning with Adam and Eve. I believe that every day we each are presented with choices to make. Those choices will either bring us closer to God or they will move us away from God. The more “right” choices we make, the closer we get to Him and we become the “overcomers”. Of course the more wrong choices we make the further we are from Him and the more we become subject to temptations of the evil one.
In Ray’s writings he mentions that we make choices, but I cannot find where he ever teaches much on it. He does say that we need to “always do the right thing”. If he believes that we have absolutely NO CHOICE of anything that we do, then how can he make that statement? With no choice we would be left to do whatever God decides, which could be good or bad, thus it would be virtually impossible for us to always do the right thing unless God chooses for us to.
When the rich young ruler came to Jesus, he had received the word with joy and wanted to know what he must do to be saved. After Jesus explained to him what was required, he made a choice NOT to do it. In another instance, several of Jesus’ devout followers took offense at what He said and DECIDED to no longer follow Him. Judas was chosen as one of the twelve, but he decided to betray Jesus for riches. I’m sure some of you believe that God causes all of those choices, so therefore we have no choice at all. If that is true then why did He say to the Israelites…..
Deuteronomy 30:15-20 (NKJ) 15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”
So to answer a couple of the questions here, I would say that God can call you out (the called ones), but ultimately it is you who determines (by the choices you make) whether you become a “chosen one”. If your choices are to “deny yourself” and to please and obey God and you choose to be content in whatever situation you find yourself (God’s will, not yours), then you are on the right path. As long as you continue on that path, you will become an “overcomer”.
I personally know many people whom I honestly believe God has called out, but they have made wrong decisions, like they refuse to believe that God will save all, or they refuse to let go of their prideful ways, or they get mad at God for the things they went through in the church and refuse to forgive, and many other things they choose to do that leads them down the wrong path, instead of humbling themselves before God, and saying “what’s next Lord”? As a result of their choices many of these people have simply walked away from God, and all I can do is pray for them.
God bless,
Roger
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RogerH - So to answer a couple of the questions here, I would say that God can call you out (the called ones), but ultimately it is you who determines (by the choices you make) whether you become a “chosen one”. If your choices are to “deny yourself” and to please and obey God and you choose to be content in whatever situation you find yourself (God’s will, not yours), then you are on the right path. As long as you continue on that path, you will become an “overcomer”.
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. (John 15:16)
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. (John 5:30)
Some have been sealed by the Holy Spirit. Do they really have a choice as to whether they obey God or not? No.
Ray Smith - I understand, Paul, that this truth is difficult for most to comprehend. And I
am not completely sure why this is so. I think possibly because we have
been trained and programmed to see too many things in only two dimensions,
when in reality there is a third dimention, but it is an illusion created by God
giving us two eyes spaced apart at the right distances to give us the illusion of
depth perception. Well, we need a little spiritual depth perception.
Theologians and clerics would have us believe that there are only two possibilities
with regards to man's either having free choice or not having free choice.
[1] We either have free will/choice and can make decisions based on no causing factors
whatsoever. We supposedly just create thoughts and actions out of NOTHING. Or,
[2] We are dumb robots.
Their is no third alternative for them. But here is the alternative truth that is in the
Scriptures and in the real work-a-day world. We have no free choice or free will
which is not caused by anything, as such a fabled idea is not only unscriptural, but
also a physiological impossibility. But........BUT, the alternative is not that we are
then "dumb robots." No, a thousand times, NO. We are intelligent. A person can
be intelligent and yet not have free will. We can think. A person can think and
yet not have free will. We can plan, think spacially, create, imagine, analyze and
manipulate difficult numbers and concepts, and WE CAN LEARN. I do not believe
that we shall ever build such robots as ourselves, and even if we did, we would have
to conclude that it was OUR INTELLIGENCE that built them, and they still would
not have free will or free choice either.
The fact that our choices are caused by some factor does not turn us into robots. And
because we are highly complicated and intelligent, it is God's purpose for us to experience
evil and then learn from it and choose to do good. Suffering the pain of making bad
decisions or being Judged by God for making bad decisions is a GOOD thing, not a bad.
Certainly we do not punish a robot if it malfunctions, but robots don't have hearts and minds
and consciences to direct them or give them guilt when they do wrong. Humans are highly
developed mechanisms, organisms, creatures, etc., plus we have a spirit at our core. Something
that no robot will ever have It is right and good that God should judge us
for doing bad things from our hearts and minds within. Ask God to continue opening your
mind to these difficult concepts.
God be with you,
Ray
( http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2943.0 )
We cannot possibly have free choice because we DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING! haha! Now, if we know everything and understand all that will happen if we choose this or the other thing, and still choose to do evil, then, what we really are is plain stupid. Or evil. Take your pick. ;)
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Hi RogerH,
Welcome to the forum :)
Here is more excerpts that might help you understand how we make the choices we make.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html -------------
"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of His Own will" (Eph. 1:11).
"For OF HIM, and THROUGH HIM, and TO HIM, are ALL THINGS..." (Rom. 11:36).
v
"Is there not an APPOINTED TIME to man upon earth? Are not his DAYS also like the days of an hireling? (Job 7:1).
Everyone who has ever been born or will yet be born has been appointed by God to be born at that time and season according the purpose of His will. And likewise, everyone who has died or will yet die has been appointed by God to die at that time and season according to the purpose of His will. It just is not possible to alter or change anything in the purpose and intention of a sovereign God. So once more, "free will" is out the window.
If mankind had a free will to do things that only they desired to do, at the time that only they desired to do them, then there would be billions upon billions of additions and deletions to God’s original plan. For it is foolishness to argue that one is "free" to do things that God has not preordained to happen, yet the very concept of free will demands that such unscriptural things can happen every day of our lives.
Free will contradicts:
"I know that, whatsoever God does, it shall be for ever [Heb:’for the eon’]; nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it; and God does it, that men should fear before Him" (Ecc. 3:14).
Ecc. 2:23—"For all his day, pains and vexation are his experience."
Ecc. 1:13—"It is an experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it."
Ecc. 9:12—"For a man also knows not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men [mankind] snared [trapped] in an EVIL TIME."
Does a fish know ahead of time when it will be caught in a net? Does a bird know ahead of time when it might be caught in a snare? No? You say, NO? Well then that’s exactly how much you know in advance what will befall you in this life of evil. The human will is not free to change anything that God has pre-appointed. You will "will" according to the circumstances God places in your path. And you are not free to "will" otherwise.
Between the birth of humanity and the death of humanity we find all of the following taking place at their appointed time:
"plant and pluck... kill and heal... breakdown and build up... weep and laugh... mourn and dance... cast away and gather... embrace and not embrace... get and lose... keep and cast away... rend and sew... keep silence and speak... love and hate... war and peace..." (Ecc. 3:2-9).
What we have here in Ecc. 3 is "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" and every shade of gray between good and evil. God takes us through such profound experiences as "war and peace," all the way down to tearing a piece of cloth and sewing it together again-"a time to rend [apart] and a time to sew [together]." Not only do we all tear our pants or tear our shirt at some time or another, but, there is actually a God-appointed time for these things to happen.
I realize that this is a hard concept for most to believe, but this is indeed what God is emphasizing in this third chapter of Ecclesiastes: "To every thing there is a season [Heb: "an appointed season or time'], and a time to every purpose under the heaven." Can we believe it? Will we believe these grand declarations of God? Not if we are "free-willers" we won't.
The will of the entire human race combined, cannot bend one blade of grass unless it was foreknown, foreordained, and appointed by God to happen. Read Ecclesiastes 3 and tell me otherwise.
Clearly God tells us that there is an appointed time for everything that happens between birth and death. But nowhere does human free will and free choice enter into any of these God-ordained and God-caused and God-performed events in the lives of all who are born and die among the human race. Man’s "will" is indeed able to always choose what it prefers, but what it prefers will always be in concert with what God has preordained.
All the choices of all humanity are preordained by God to happen, and as such, not one is free to not happen. Therefore, no one has a will that can operate independent from or in opposition to, God’s preordained purpose.
How then is it possible to believe these Scriptures and yet believe in "free choices?" It is not possible, for these Scriptures blatantly contradict any such theory as "freely chosen acts" independent and contradictory to the will and plan of God. Seriously, if anyone can explain how someone can freely choose a course of action, [1] independent of God, or [2] bring about any course of action at a time other than pre-appointed by God, please drop me an email. I will now hold my breath....
v
Man’s will is predicated on previous circumstances and causes, all of which originate in God’s preordained plan and purpose.
Christendom and her fabled doctrine of "free moral agency" is trapped and completely book-ended between:
[1] "To every thing there is a season [appointed time],and a time to every purpose [matter or event] under the heaven" (Ecc. 3:1).
AND:
[2] "I know that, whatsoever God does...NOTHING can be put to it, nor ANYTHING taken from it: and GOD does it" (Ecc. 3:14).
Someone might see a contradiction in God’s teaching. If the two above Scriptures are true, then why does God warn against "adding to or taking away from His word?" Well, like everything else that is beyond the realm of carnal comprehension, all of these things too, have been foreordained and pre-determined to happen only at their "APPOINTED TIME." God has appointed a time for false prophets to add and God has appointed a time for false prophets to take away from His word.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Alex,
... but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, they'll never be lost, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. (John 10:26, 27, 28)
They didn't choose to not believe; they could not believe. Jesus didn't choose them. It's that simple. ( You did not choose me, I chose you.)
Remember how Ray explained that if we have so much as a desire to do the will of God and to please God and not ourselves/our flesh then our desire will come to fruition? Judas was chosen by Jesus, but Judas had NO desire to please him and wasn't battling that at all. None. That's why Jesus said, "but one of you is a devil." Judas couldn't obey Jesus. He was given a different task.
It's a daily struggle. It's not just one day we overcome the flesh and we're no longer struggling. No, it's a constant battle, but one that we will win, IF we have been chosen by God to overcome. From a relative viewpoint, it appears as though we are making the choices to overcome, when in reality it is God who is TEACHING us by GRACE (that chastises, scourges, beats the living daylights out of us - in love, of course) to flipping learn to take the "high road." Right now because you're a young man in your 20's and testosterone is "King," pretty women and lots of money are your top priorities. (That is not to say that there is something wrong with pretty women or lots of money -- God makes them both; but they should never displace God's love. "If we have food and clothing and a roof over our heads, we should be content" -Sir Paul. But we LEARN to be content with these things. We learn. ) But if God is choosing you, your conscience is battling those things. Daily. And it's a MAJOR fight.
Here you are:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7047.0.html
Can We Lose God Spirit/Eonian Life?
John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own…
Well what does that mean? Christ knows those that are His. I get from that, that we don’t know, we don’t.
Now I have read you from Peter, which is to me, it is a very inspiring Scripture. Because we are not left totally in the dark. He is like, well it’s Que Sera Sera - maybe you will, maybe you won’t. Now here are some of these promises. Peter says;
2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
v. 5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
v. 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
v. 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity (love).
v. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
v. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for IF (there that little word “if” again) ye do these things (but here is the consolation, here is the inspiration, the hope and assurance…), ye shall never fall:
Now that’s pretty good. So all these things Paul is talking about here, I bring it into subjection, I bind it, I turn myself into a slave for Christ, lest I myself should be rejected or turned away or unapproved or disqualified. But if we “do these things.”
"TO HIM THAT OVERCOMES"
No matter how hard these things are they are benefits, all of this doing of this stuff is called OVERCOMING. I have a lot of stuff to overcome yet.
Here is an interesting thing. You live a while and you overcome certain sins. God gives you the victory over them and you feel good about that. Then your conscience is clean, because you can look back yesterday and you know in your heart and mind you were not flagrantly, willingly, willfully, knowingly sinning, practicing sin. You were trying to do what’s right, you are getting in the habit and the routine of doing what’s right.
Then low and behold you have to do it all over again. How so? God sends a bigger trial, bigger. What happens? Well with the same capacity of spirituality that you had yesterday and was making progress, it’s not enough to beat this trial today, it’s not enough. If you don’t get help from someplace, then you are going down. Is this a secret to any of you? It’s like whoa, I thought we were doing pretty good when I wiped out some of those other hurdles, you know (I kind of amuse myself with God sometimes). I thought that was a pretty good victory there. Now it’s not some strange thing from outer space, it’s the same trials you always have. Paul says;
1Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
These are things that are common, these are common to humanity, they just get bigger. I could deal with that, but now God hits me with this and this amount of spirituality from yesterday isn’t going to take care of this problem today. That’s what it means when we have to grow in grace and knowledge. Grace trains us, now you’ve got to grow in your training.
It’s like you go to boot camp in the army. They call it basic training. Why is it basic? Because what you do the first week gets harder the second week and the third and forth. It gets harder, but you get good at doing the stuff that was hard on the first day. Now they give you stuff that’s harder yet.
Low and behold if you should ever want to be an officer. Boy they really put the thumb screws to you then. I use to just hang around the corner in Fort Knox, Kentucky and watch. They would be training officers out on the grounds and I would just watch and I would pretend, could I take that kind of harassment and physical excursion, if I were trying to be an officer. It’s pretty tough, pretty tough stuff.
So it’s all overcoming. Paul likens this to overcoming and John wrote the first three chapters of Revelation, “To him that overcomes.”
Repenting of your past sins, accepting Jesus as your Saviour and receiving God’s Spirit does not pronounce you “SAVED.” It is not the conclusion of your spiritual life, but rather the very beginning.
What Paul did is called “overcoming,” and it’s the hardest thing in life to do, but the rewards are high. A few fringe benefits are:
Access to the TREE OF LIFE, which means you will be given immortality, never die again or fear death or worry about death.
You avoid THE SECOND DEATH, which is not only the second death spiritually, but all the judgment and stuff that goes with it. Why? Because you are judged now, if you are judged here you don’t need to be judged and condemned with the world later.
You get a NEW NAME, this means a lot of things, but it’s like you have to believe in the name and the name is everything that it represents and not just a new name, a better name.
POWER over the nation.
RIGHTEOUS garments, which mean we will be clothed in a perfect attitude, perfect righteousness.
Your new name will be CONFESSED BEFORE GOD THE FATHER.
Made a PILLAR, a mainstay, a vital support in the Temple of God.
SIT WITH CHRIST IN HIS THRONE.
(Rev. 2 & 3)
That’s a lot of good stuff. In fact here’s a problem with it. It’s too profound, we almost don’t even meditate on it. See if you could go into some kind of training and after so long you would be like a cabinet member of the president of the United States, you would say that would be pretty neat. You might put up with a lot to go into some kind of training like that, because you would hob knob with the president on Air Force One, that a pretty neat plane. You would meet all the other royalty around the world and so on and that would be pretty good.
Don’t you reckon this is a little higher calling then that? It is a high calling! Really high! Probably too high for our spirit to take it in. We’re just... oh okay that is pretty cool. But it really is great and I suppose, I’m thinking the further we go in life, if we believe these things, then it becomes more tangible. Not only will we believe them and think about them, we’ll start expecting them. Where the King James uses hope the Concordant uses expectation. We will expect it, we’ll be looking for it that much.
Don't lose heart. If you're struggling, that's a good sign you're on the right track. Battles are meant to be won. And God doesn't lose anyone. God saves.
I hope that makes sense.
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Thanks Shorty and Kat for your responses.
Shorty said “We cannot possibly have free choice because we DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING! haha! Now, if we know everything and understand all that will happen if we choose this or the other thing, and still choose to do evil, then, what we really are is plain stupid. Or evil. Take your pick.” There is no pick to it Gina. The Bible declares we are BOTH!
OK Kat, from what you say, we are merely puppets of God the ventriloquist. He takes us out of the box, sticks His hand in our back and absolutely controls our every movement, word, thought and reaction, and when he is finished with us he sticks us back in the box? I can completely agree that He brings about every situation in our lives and we are helpless to control any of that. He brings about good, bad, disease, poverty, good fortune, bad fortune, anything He chooses to teach us the lessons He wants us to learn. All I am saying is that we have the choice of how we will respond to those situations. No I don’t think we can make any eternity changing choices. It’s kind of like we give our children the choice of whether they want a vanilla ice cream cone or a chocolate one. Whichever choice they make will not alter the other events of the day one iota, and will have absolutely no impact on where they go to school. Now, the child gets to decide what flavor they want, but they also have a choice to make as to whether they even want an ice cream cone. So then if they decide they want the cone, they make their choice and get to enjoy it. If they decide they do not want a cone it still doesn’t change the outcome of their day, but they probably won’t get an ice cream cone until you decide they will.
Maybe that’s a little silly to you, but I’m being very serious here. If God makes every decision in our lives and even controls our every action, then we are merely puppets on a string. How can any of us be held accountable for our actions that we have no choice as to what they are to begin with? That’s like you choosing the clothing your son will wear to school tomorrow and punishing him because the school sends him home for wearing inappropriate clothing. That doesn’t make sense to me Kat. I know God is sovereign, but I think we can carry that a little too far. I know people who use that as an excuse to continue to sin in whatever capacity they desire. “You know God will make me quit that when He’s ready”! I’m not real good at quoting scripture, but I know that Paul said something like “should we use that as an excuse to continue in sin”? and then he continues with absolutely not! He exhorts us to abstain from evil appearances, and many other places he talks about things that we should or should not do. Even Jesus has instructions on what and what not to do as followers of Him. He says if we want to follow Him we must deny ourselves. He says that we must obey! In fact He says that the Holy Spirit will be given to those who obey. If we have absolutely no choice as to whether we will do any of these things then why would He tell us to do them? Then in the same breath, why will we be held accountable for NOT doing those things if we cannot do them no matter how much we want to?
I could go on and on, but I’m really not here to argue with you at all. I guess what it boils down to is what we believe to be the sovereignty of God. Here’s how I see it……. I believe that God has created lots of humans whom He desires to become His sons and daughters. I believe that He will accomplish what He has set out to do and ALL of His creation will indeed become His sons and daughters. I believe we are living in the “evil” age which God uses to teach us the difference between good and evil. I believe that we all ultimately enter into the Kingdom of God through our Lord Jesus. I believe that God has chosen those who will enter in at the end of this age and those who will not. I do believe however that the possibility exists that some of those that God has chosen to give the opportunity to enter in at the end of this age will make choices that will prevent them from being chosen AT THIS TIME! Thus, we are constantly reminded in His word that “Many are called, Few are chosen”. Doesn’t Ray teach that every parable that Jesus taught means exactly that?
So what consequences do our choices have? Nothing eternal! God has already predetermined all of that. EVERYONE will eventually make it. The only thing we can change with our decisions is whether we will be chosen at the end of this age or we will have to wait until later when God decides to clean us up from all of the bad decisions we made by putting us through the lake of fire.
After reading your response Kat, I felt like I didn’t make myself clear in my first post. Maybe I have no idea what I am talking about and I have a lot more to learn. I am definitely open to that. Maybe I need to keep my mouth shut and continue reading and praying for His wisdom in this matter. Certainly there are those here who are much further along than I am and I truly appreciate the opportunity to be here to learn from them.
God bless,
Roger
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Jesus said that a bird does not fall to the ground without the Father's say.
If the Father controls the death of birds, then does He not also control the actions of all men?
Judas was compelled to betray Jesus. Peter did not want to be a rat fink and deny Jesus; he was compelled to deny Jesus; Jesus said Peter would deny Him even before the actual event.
The Scriptures say none are righteous, no not one. The Scriptures also say all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
If any human had free choice or free will, would you not expect at least one human to have freely decided to do good? But since the Scriptures say none have done good, it then follows that God created us to disobey Him and sin. Sin is humanity's default position. Sin is what we do. When we do not sin, it is not us, but the Power of God that makes us do righteously.
All the credit for our good actions go to God. As Jesus said, there is none good but one---God.
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Hi Shorty,
Your last reply is opened with "Hi Alex" but it appears you're talking to roger?
Just looking for clarification.
THanks!
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To you, Alex. You can call me Gina.
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Thanks Shorty and Kat for your responses.
Shorty said “We cannot possibly have free choice because we DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING! haha! Now, if we know everything and understand all that will happen if we choose this or the other thing, and still choose to do evil, then, what we really are is plain stupid. Or evil. Take your pick.” There is no pick to it Gina. The Bible declares we are BOTH!
OK Kat, from what you say, we are merely puppets of God the ventriloquist. He takes us out of the box, sticks His hand in our back and absolutely controls our every movement, word, thought and reaction, and when he is finished with us he sticks us back in the box? I can completely agree that He brings about every situation in our lives and we are helpless to control any of that. He brings about good, bad, disease, poverty, good fortune, bad fortune, anything He chooses to teach us the lessons He wants us to learn. All I am saying is that we have the choice of how we will respond to those situations. No I don’t think we can make any eternity changing choices. It’s kind of like we give our children the choice of whether they want a vanilla ice cream cone or a chocolate one. Whichever choice they make will not alter the other events of the day one iota, and will have absolutely no impact on where they go to school. Now, the child gets to decide what flavor they want, but they also have a choice to make as to whether they even want an ice cream cone. So then if they decide they want the cone, they make their choice and get to enjoy it. If they decide they do not want a cone it still doesn’t change the outcome of their day, but they probably won’t get an ice cream cone until you decide they will.
Maybe that’s a little silly to you, but I’m being very serious here. If God makes every decision in our lives and even controls our every action, then we are merely puppets on a string. How can any of us be held accountable for our actions that we have no choice as to what they are to begin with? That’s like you choosing the clothing your son will wear to school tomorrow and punishing him because the school sends him home for wearing inappropriate clothing. That doesn’t make sense to me Kat. I know God is sovereign, but I think we can carry that a little too far. I know people who use that as an excuse to continue to sin in whatever capacity they desire. “You know God will make me quit that when He’s ready”! I’m not real good at quoting scripture, but I know that Paul said something like “should we use that as an excuse to continue in sin”? and then he continues with absolutely not! He exhorts us to abstain from evil appearances, and many other places he talks about things that we should or should not do. Even Jesus has instructions on what and what not to do as followers of Him. He says if we want to follow Him we must deny ourselves. He says that we must obey! In fact He says that the Holy Spirit will be given to those who obey. If we have absolutely no choice as to whether we will do any of these things then why would He tell us to do them? Then in the same breath, why will we be held accountable for NOT doing those things if we cannot do them no matter how much we want to?
I could go on and on, but I’m really not here to argue with you at all. I guess what it boils down to is what we believe to be the sovereignty of God. Here’s how I see it……. I believe that God has created lots of humans whom He desires to become His sons and daughters. I believe that He will accomplish what He has set out to do and ALL of His creation will indeed become His sons and daughters. I believe we are living in the “evil” age which God uses to teach us the difference between good and evil. I believe that we all ultimately enter into the Kingdom of God through our Lord Jesus. I believe that God has chosen those who will enter in at the end of this age and those who will not. I do believe however that the possibility exists that some of those that God has chosen to give the opportunity to enter in at the end of this age will make choices that will prevent them from being chosen AT THIS TIME! Thus, we are constantly reminded in His word that “Many are called, Few are chosen”. Doesn’t Ray teach that every parable that Jesus taught means exactly that?
So what consequences do our choices have? Nothing eternal! God has already predetermined all of that. EVERYONE will eventually make it. The only thing we can change with our decisions is whether we will be chosen at the end of this age or we will have to wait until later when God decides to clean us up from all of the bad decisions we made by putting us through the lake of fire.
After reading your response Kat, I felt like I didn’t make myself clear in my first post. Maybe I have no idea what I am talking about and I have a lot more to learn. I am definitely open to that. Maybe I need to keep my mouth shut and continue reading and praying for His wisdom in this matter. Certainly there are those here who are much further along than I am and I truly appreciate the opportunity to be here to learn from them.
God bless,
Roger
Roger,
It's okay, we're all learning. (And yes, I was being sarcastic -- the bible declares we are clay in the Potter's hand and God's ways are past finding out, except for those to whom God reveals His mysteries.) It hasn't been easy for us either, you know. I know you were addressing Kat, but the thing I want to point out is that how in the world can we possibly have free choices (that is, that we makes choices that are free from causality)? We aren't puppets, because we volunteer to sin, but we volunteer to sin because we are held down under the LAW (forced, if you will) of sin and death. We have no choice but to obey the pulls of our carnal flesh/mind until we are set free only by the LAW of the spirit. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. It only appears that we have free choice, but when you think about it, we only have choices based on those options that are set before us. And the choices get narrower and narrower based on how we are shaped as children into adulthood by the parents we didn't choose, the schools we didn't choose to go to, and the opinions of the teachers that we didn't choose to hire, and the list goes on. Do we really have "freedom" of choice? I didn't choose where I'd be born, or which parents would raise me. Did you? Yes, God did say, "choose this day whom you will serve," and He said that knowing full well that the law NEVER made anyone righteous. For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope,. There are people who struggle with sins that can't overcome and want to, but it is not their time! Yes, they would choose to change IF they could but they have to be SET FREE. Or do we set ourselves free? If we could set ourselves free -- then Christ died for nothing. People like you come along and claim that they can choose to do right. Oh really? Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil. It's one thing to say, I can't make myself want to do right, because that is basically what you're saying. Paul said that For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. Oh wretched (stupid, evil?) man that I am! Who will set me free from this body of death? And what was his answer? Jesus Christ. Thank God. But there are those who say, Yes, I am this way, and I can't help it and it's all God's fault I'm this way; and that's the wrong attitude to take. Completely wrong attitude. Instead, we should be beating our chests and saying, "Be merciful to me, a sinner!" And He will. In His time. In the right season. Every man in his own order. But we say we are robots and puppets because we get frustrated. Why is He still angry with us? And Paul says, Who are you to talk back to God? He will have mercy on whom He will, and that's just how it is.
It's okay. I know exactly how you feel. Don't give up! It will make sense. Just don't give up. Whenever we choose to do good and right, it's only and always when God grants us the ability to choose to do good, or to make it in the first resurrection. Only Jesus knows those who are His. We don't know that, only Jesus. If we've been given eyes to see, then we will see that we have one choice and that it's not optional, and that is to pray that God has mercy on us and grants us the ability to overcome. Everyday. We have to learn to pray, God, lead me not into temptation, but deliver me from evil. We, by our own lusts (which we didn't choose to have by the weak heart we didn't bestow on ourselves) are lead into temptation, but we do not and cannot deliver ourselves from evil, only God can and He does. Our ego wants the credit for having chosen to do the right things - or as you say -- to come up in the first resurrection. But if we do come up in the first resurrection, then in the final analysis, we did it only because we learned to do right, because we were taught in the school of hard knocks, to want what is right and good. Jesus learned obedience by the things that He suffered.
Ah forget it. You're just gonna have to learn the hard way. Just like the rest of us. Sorry.
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It's beyond question that we make choices. We even have a will of our own. Neither is 'free' from what caused them.
Ray says "Always do the right thing" because he is hoping to be a part of the cause of his reader desiring and choosing the right thing. Both the will to choose and the ability to choose and follow through are subject to the influence of God on our lives. Even the fact that there is a 'good choice' and a 'bad choice' is because of God. Besides all that, the fact that we exist to make the choice is because of Him. All of this creation is because of Him. Without Him there is absolutely nothing. No thing. Nothing at all.
What choice we make is also the very and only choice He knew before hand we would make.
He didn't create us so He could judge us for our choices (contrary to what is taught in most churches), though He does and will judge every man. Judgment itself is for a purpose. We're not simply "predestined" but predestined to good works. When He's ready for us to do them, He gives us both the desire and the power to do them so that no man may boast. He is the One working IN us and through us just as He works in all and through all to do His purpose.
I'm quite happy to be like a marionette. I know that some of the 'strings' that control me are short, some are long, some are internal, some are external, some are invisible, and some are visible. I'm especially happy because if my choices were strictly up to me, I would NEVER get to what God is creating me to be. First I must know that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. But had He not revealed himself, nobody would know He exists. Had He not loved me first, I could not love Him. Had He not chosen me, I could not choose Him. I'm just a beast, a creature, a vessel, a lump of clay, a pot being spun according to His purpose.
I'm also happy because some of the 'strings' which control me now will be (and are being) cut, because He is also Lord over Satan and his ministers.
I am NOT a marionette because I am not made out of wood or plastic I am a human being with a mind (which must receive input to make decisions) and a heart (which must be changed from it's stony natural state into a soft one) under His influence.
The absolute sovereignty of God is what ensures the salvation of all and the birthing of sons and daughters to create His ever expanding family.
Anyway, as Ray said often, meditate on this truth for a few thousand hours and it will be clearer to you. Hang in there, and welcome to the forum.
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Ray says "Always do the right thing" because he is hoping to be the cause of his reader choosing the right thing.
Exactly.
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I don't want to argue either, but just speak a bit to your ice-cream analogy. It may well be pretty inconsequential whether the boy chooses chocolate or strawberry. Maybe if he's allergic to strawberries it would be more obvious. But we don't know what is consequential...the Father does, seeing as how He is involved in everything.
Though his choice of flavors is just as "caused" as any other choice he makes, the Lord God is molding him even through that, as silly as that might sound.
Some things we DO know are consequential, though we're not born that way 100%. We have to learn. The message of scripture isn't whether the choice of chocolate or strawberry is inconsequential or not. The message of Scripture is "Don't worry about anything."
Choose your flavor and don't worry. Follow God when you've learned His will. Don't worry. He is able to make us stand.
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Ray says "Always do the right thing" because he is hoping to be the cause of his reader choosing the right thing.
Exactly.
In this post Gina you are quoting Dave, so that means that both of you agree that Ray wants to be the cause of his reader choosing the right thing. Then in your other posts you try to tell me that it is impossible for anyone to make choices on their own. Still in other posts I read on the forum, you are dissing people for doing things that you don't agree with. All I have to say about it is what's the use?????? If everything we do is scripted by God, then why even discuss any of this? In fact, why does God put us through all of this if He completely controls every outcome?? Why doesn't He just make us completely subservient to Him and choose for everyone to only do good things rather than evil things? Yes, I know some believe it's to teach us eventually to desire good rather than evil, but if everything we do, say or think is controlled, what is there to learn? Why should we or Ray or Paul or Jesus or anyone ever disagree with anything that anyone does if it's all God causing it to happen?? It seems to me that we should just grin and bear it since we have no hope of ever changing any of it.
Just to set the record straight, I do agree with Dave's post above. I never said that God is not entirely in control or that He doesn't put us through everything that we go through, only that I believe that He does give us the authority to choose certain things. I believe the Truth is much simpler than most of us make it out to be. I believe that God has predetermined the outcome of all things, like Dave said, "The absolute sovereignty of God is what ensures the salvation of all and the birthing of sons and daughters to create His ever expanding family." I also agree that only a few are called by Him in this lifetime, and He judges those few to see which ones will be "chosen". I believe that not one of us can do anything good because our hearts are evil all the time. I believe all of these things, but I also believe that He gives us the choice to make as to whether we will heed His call. That doesn't mean we can accomplish any of it on our own, but we must deny ourselves (our evil hearts) every day and pray for Him to change us. The word tells me I should present myself a living sacrifice to God. That means to me that I should come before Him humbly, deny all of my selfish desires and say, "what's next Lord"? "Teach me Your ways", "Renew my evil heart", "Have your way with me Lord." If we don't have the choice to accept the word and a desire to want to obey then how can we be held accountable for NOT obeying?
You say in your post that “we volunteer to sin”. Now I would like to ask you, If you cannot make a choice on your own and God causes everything, then how in the world do you “volunteer” to sin??
Ok, now I’m beginning to feel like you Gina, what’s the use of wasting all my time typing this if I can accomplish nothing by it? I guess I will go and do some more reading.
God bless,
Roger
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Hi RogerH,
This idea must be one of the hardest concepts to really understand. Though all we do is ultimately causes by things most times we do not even realize, the fact is 'we' do, say and think what we do our self. It comes into our mind and will to voluntarily do what we choose to do/say. A robot/puppet does not have the capacity to think things through and make a decision like we do.
For now in this age we are having an "experience in evil" to form a backdrop, a base, so that when the truth is finally revealed we have a comparison and can see a real difference. These experiences that we are having by living and making choices builds within us a character, this is necessary for a base foundation that we all need, it's like the clay the potter uses. Once we have something to work with and yes our carnality always makes us wicked to start with, but God will take it, for a very few now, for most later and shape it into something worth while. It is a process, it seems long and daunting, but it will product all of these unique individuals that will make up a glorious family as a outcome.
Here are a few more excerpts that may help.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=9822.0 -----------
You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?" It is BOTH. Listen: God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE. That's it. That's all there is to it. That IS the principle. That IS the Truth. That IS what the Bible teaches. It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices." You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation. It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."
I hardly know what else to tell you. God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams. They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God. So then we don't make choices, right? NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES. It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see. Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED. And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that? He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.
So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS? Well, does He? Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls? That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will. They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right? Wrong, wrong, wrong! Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them. He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things. And who created the Devil? That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things. Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money. God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT. They volunteer with little outside influence. God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak. Eve couldn't help but sin. God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.
http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility ----------------
[Ray Replies]
You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you. God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!
When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE! True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.
But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!
Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying: Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED? Why? Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.
This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them. IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT. "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.
Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.
It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.
God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well! We have this absolute promise from God:
"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!
God be with you,
Ray
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I usually regret my posts after I make them. For all I know others may feel the same way when they see a post by "Horseman". They just don't seem as smart as everyone else's posts, but I'll do it anyway.
Roger,
Everything you've written.........I understand.
Your point of view and your reasoning stands equal to my point of view and reasoning. I've struggled with the matter for the better part of 5 years. You'd think after 5 years I'd just give up and say "to hell with it". But I don't believe in hell.
Kat writes of Ray, "It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY!"
Sounds pretty. And that's all fine and well. But man gets one lifetime of flesh.
When one "chooses wrongly" and the consequences of such a decision, or decisions, result in a lifetime of undesired consequences, not only for that particular person but for anyone who may be in a direct line to feel those consequences from choices that were made, it hardly makes any difference after the deed is done. Man gets--one-- ONE--(1)-- lifetime and the consquences of choices may be a lifetime, exactly, of remorse. Millions by millions make "choices" and live a lifetime of regret, all at God's behest? Really?
It that's true then who reallys gives a s*it if God made the devil do it who then made the man do it? One life, that's it. That's not hard math and it isn't pretty either. But it sure does sound like that's the way it is. So just exactly how merciful is this God when man only gets one (1) life and can do NOTHING to rescend such terrible choice(s)?
That's my question now after the hours, as Dave reminds us, we must spend drudging through the subject to come to agreement that God is in charge and we're not.
I'm coming to believe that in a matter such as this man truly does become an island, mentally speaking, and best it be so. Man and God. Alone. You will struggle with this, and best it be that way to even begin to understand what is true and what is false. I'm beginning to believe maybe the struggle is worth it's weight in gold, even more so than the discovery.
Some get it, some don't. Some SAY they get it, when they really don't. And it usually shows in their words on differing posts from time to time. You've called that out. But they'll make a good show of convincing.
But I'm not on your side. I don't have to be and here's why:
You can't have it both ways. One can't say, "I believe in the sovereignty of God" but then say "we have LIMITED free will". That's a really true contradiction and that APPEARS to be what you're saying.
I don't think it works that way Roger. It's one or the other.
The struggle will, perhaps, bring you to this point:
Matthew 10 (Amplified Bible)
24 A disciple is not above his teacher, nor is a servant or slave above his master.
John 14:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 19:11
King James Version (KJV)
11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above:
You're either for or against but you ain't gonna be in the middle because there is no middle, and wherever your mental boots stand, be it for or against, you can believe it's you and God in that very spot, alone. And you will not be in control. That much I do know.
Jesus is either the greatest bulls*hit artist ever created, fooling billions with more to come, or he's telling the truth. That part only you and God are going to discover. You and God. No-one else will be in the equation.
I'm getting to the point I don't even care if my will is free or not. Decisions are decisions, what control do I have?
Just tell me how Jesus is going to do this biggie:
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
4 "and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes,"
Oh yea? Does everyone get a "do-over"?
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Hi Horseman,
Yeah, everyone gets a do-over.
One major truth is that of the resurrection of the dead. We don't just have this lifetime.
As Job said, "If a man die, will he live again? All the days of my life will I wait until my change come. You will call and I will answer."
So death is not the end of anything. Death is sleep. We will get a do-over until God decides we are O.K., then the last enemy to go will be death.
But you know this.
God's ways are sometimes hard to understand, but whether we understand them or not, He will always do things His way.
John
P.S. I like those Scriptures you quoted.
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Hi Roger,
I shared this in another post about accountability verse responsibility. I think it fits this theme of "choice" very well.
It's very simple reg.
Because God created man practically a sinning machine, with a weak heart and because it takes spiritual strength to do what is right, man volunteers to sin on a daily basis. However, because he was created thus, God takes full responsibility by dying and one day redeeming all creation. This is God being responsible.
Now, when you decided to sin, YOU wanted to in your heart, God did not force you or make you sin. You absolutely wanted to commit that sin when you did therefor you are accountable. This is you being held accountable.
Two examples;
The earth is naturally dark on its own. It is devoid of light. Earth can be made to metaphorically represent man. The sun, which can be metaphorically analogous to God, is what shines and gives light to the earth. So long as the sun is near the earth will be filled with light. However, take away that light and the earth instantly becomes dark again. So much like the earth, there is nothing in man that inately gives him the ability to Shine (Do good/right), this is the power of God.
Now the example ray uses is one of a bible verse a pornography magazine.
Lets assume you have a man in a closed room and there is absolutely no one around and no one who will know what he does in that room. Now lets assume before him are these two books, one the Word of God and the other all things carnal in the form of pornography. Which book do you think this man will choose?
The porno of course because it takes spiritual strength to do what is good and open up the Word of God over the images of beautiful naked women! This is the state in which man was created, a very weak heart, subject to vanity, carnal etc.. and so God says, Hey! I'm not an idiot, I know I'm responsible for this so I'm dying for all these sins mankind will commit and I will change you.
Man however, when he chose to open up that pornography magazine, absolutely wanted to. No one forced him, no one made him do it, He really wanted to do it. He had every intention in his heart at that moment to do it and so he will be held accountable. This is accountability.
Though God may have brought about the circumstances (responsible) which put this man in this position to sin, the man absolutely wanted to sin in that moment which he commited the sin (accountable).
Does that help?
Its how I understand it and I think its exactly how it works.
God be with you,
Alex
Thread: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,15006.msg133019.html#msg133019
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Hi Horseman,
You might get tried of hearing me on this subject, but I feel it is worth any and every effort and that is the point of these discussions, to try and help someone.
I think you are saying that all the suffering that some certainly do have in this life is too much and it's wrong for God to put this much on humans.
Well my signature Scripture is this...
James 4:14 whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. What is your life? For ye are a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
This lifetime that we have is but a breath in our existence... I believe this life's purpose is to give an experience in evil that we might have this backdrop, as dark and terrible as it is. But I believe it is absolutely necessary for comparative sake, we have to know evil in order to understand (by comparison) righteousness. And do realize that even all the evil that we have has limits. I mean the body just will take so much and it will die and the suffering ceases.
Now as you were saying, but we only have this one lifetime. Well what is the life in the next age then and after that as well? I believe the primary purpose for the next age is to rectify to all people what they experience in the age. Remember what Jesus said many times.
Luke 13:29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.
v. 30 And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last."
I believe that this is a very simple way Jesus states there will be justice for all in the next age. We do not know what God has in store in the next age, but how can we think He cannot make all things right? How can you think He is incapable of that?
I will try a little analogy. When I have a bad tooth I go to the dentist (understand I hate to go and have my teeth worked on), but I do it even though I hate every min I'm sitting there having the work done. So was what the dentist did bad/evil for the suffering he caused me? Of course not, I needed to have it done. So did I enjoy it? Heck no, even though I wanted it done. That might not be a real good example to this discussion, but what I trying to say is that sometimes we have to do things that we do not enjoy at all for what it brings about.
I'm saying of course God does not enjoy what must be done here... but yes He did determined that this is the best way to produce the outcome He wants. To think that what we are going through now in this life (a vapor/breath) is too much... well I believe that beyond this life we will have endless life with God in glory. For the few a bit sooner than the rest.
I know God has graced me to accept this, which I'm so thankful for. But I will try to help anybody if I possibly can, because I believe this is vital to begin to really know our God.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Been thinking about this for the past few days and want to add something I hope is encouraging.
Nobody should take anything said in this thread on the subject of the 'illusion' of free-will, or free-choice or free moral agency as meaning this truth is like some 'gnostic' knowledge hidden deep and only found by dividing the Hebrew letters in Ecclesiates chapter three by the Greek words in 1. Thessalonians chapter one or some other such freakishness. That's not what Ray meant by "meditate on this for a long time".
I think I can speak for others in saying that, when you 'see' it, you will wonder why it seemed so difficult. One reason why it is so hard is because it certainly SEEMS like we make choices un-caused by anything else. This can be 'taught' away. There are other reasons why, though, and some of those require a change of heart.
I think once we are ready to at least 'consider' the possibility, it is both through Scripture AND living/proving that the sovereignty of God and the illusory nature of 'free-will/choice' come into focus. Ray said it was in obedience (both successful and failure) we really learn the deeper things of God. That very much matches my experience, and the experience of Peter (and all the others) in his denial of Christ and subsequent "power" to declare Him openly.
I'd only add that sometimes this knowledge comes in stages, and we are not all in identical places in this transformation. How 'deep' this understanding is in us varies. It's the best possible start to understand that the sovereignty of God ensures the Salvation of all. Ultimately, the Light will shine on us all, and when it does, it will be 'sudden'...and worth it.
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Everything, every, thing, is relative, (all expressing out of Absolute God )
Relativity, by definition has therefore variables, by contrast to Absolute.
The Matrix of life is in dramatic convolution experience that eventually opens up to the unified field of consciousness. Love your enemy as yourself. Do unto others as you do unto yourself.
Arc
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I just caught up with this amazingly intense, sincere, insightful and heart wrenching thread. What a blessing you are BT Forum. What a treasure trove! And to think that you are my sisters and brothers, well ... wow! Peace to you all! -- It is interesting how the thread turned from lilitalienboi16 question 'does being chosen not necessarily mean you are an overcomer then?', to the 'free will'. Was it by accident?
In my experience there are a number of train stations one must pass, in one's journey from the Free Will end of the town to No Such Thing on the other side of the town. One of the last stumbling blocks I faced was the question, But why does God ask us to make choices, even threatening dire consequences, if He has already predetermined the outcome? In other words, to paraphrase RogerH, What is the point?
What helped me was the realisation that despite God's predetermination, at the time of me facing the choice, the will of God is unknown to me, being at that moment a matter of the future. (And Kat would rightly quote James 4:14, 'you do not know what tomorrow will bring' (ESV)).
Plus, I feel free to make my choice! For me, at that moment, it is a current, live and real life and death matter. Definitely not something predetermined or forced upon me. For 'my' choices in such a context, I believe I am accountable to God, as well as to myself and society. The fact that even my choices are predetermined, and my later discovery of its predetermination, simply does not enter into the equation at that moment.
Somebody, to me decisively, quoted Ray: 'True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.' And again: 'But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!' -- The key, I believe, is in the fact that we do not know next moment (it is hidden from us), and our perceived sense of freedom.
One day we will be like Him! There is something that is being formed 'in us' or that God is making 'of us', and it is not our physical shape.
To him who overcomes I will give of the secret manna, and I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name, of which no one has knowledge but he to whom it is given (Rev 2:17 BBE). Talk about unique, individual experience! 'Only the one who receives that name will know what it is' (Rev 2:17 NIrV).
Our 'new name' will signify our experience of evil, our victory over evil, and our becoming like God by being no longer tempted by evil. But the big question is, What goes into that name? How is our character chiselled out, if the course is predetermined by God? I am persuaded that it is our choices that play a crucial part in the formation of our 'new name'.
I love chess. One of the training facilities offered by one chess site is the option to play through a chess game between two grandmasters and guess what one grandmaster played in a particular position. You win or lose points according to your choices. After you make your choice, grandmaster's choice is revealed and you are able to compare and learn, and get ready for the next move.
Two interesting parallels emerge. 1/ I am, as the game progresses, given my score, reflecting my choices (my level of play). 2/ Never do my choices alter the course of the game (that was played many moons ago). In other words, it is a 'preset course' that I am 'running'.
Another two parallels should be noted. 1/ I do not become a GM (grandmaster) after a series of, say, five in a row GM moves, simply because soon after I also make second rate moves plus some blunders! 2/ The 'future' becomes the 'present' after I have been given GM choice in that particular situation.
Every day in all our lives the will of the Master is being revealed in the actual unfolding of the events. What was an enigma only a few moments earlier is resolved in the actual events that pass into history. For David history was but an unfolding of the mighty acts of Yahweh (Psalm 111). The task for us is, I believe, to learn the will of God in the daily flow of the events which (as they become the history) reveal the will of God.
My choices are actually 'me' because they define who I am in I Am. The fact that we all along the way experience deception (as my 92 year old Dad would say, We face deception from Genesis to Revelation) is the very spice of life in the experience of evil ordained by God in love.
Our choices are all important, not for the sake of the ultimate salvation (which was not left to us to decide) but in forming our unique, heavenly name (or character). I believe Kat was on the money when she said, 'These experiences that we are having by living and making choices builds within us a character... it will produce all of these unique individuals that will make up a glorious family as a[n] outcome'!
None of these analogies are fullproof, but the idea of a 'guided tour' comes to mind. We go on a predetermined tour, but we have an experience of our own.
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Hi Wonone,
Time and future can well be hinged together by as you say, "the will of God, is unknown...being at that moment, a matter of the future." This can be supported by the Holy Spirit who prays for us in groaning sounds we do not understand.
God neither ventures backwards or forwards but is pivoted AS, Sovereign unchanging, changelessness.
In the words of Paul, God creates a time called NOW. Jesus points to having no care for the future as even the sparrows and hairs on our heads are accounted and highly valued.
The secret manna and white stone is given in the chamber of ALONENESS I dare to say, where time has stopped. Ray's paper, PRAYING BY GOD'S RULES http://bible-truths.com/praying.htm brings to light, that Jesus made such communion with Abba, alone, not on parade or supported by fellowship.
God approved approval is best.
How else could Ray have written :
I Believe that the Holy Scriptures are God's Authorized Biography, and
I Believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God's Authorized Autobiography http://bible-truths.com/Creed.htm
You say that you are persuaded that our choices play a crucial part in the formation of our 'new name'. Of course. Our PREFERENCES for this or that have finally to focus on preferring only God all the way and in every matter of choice set before us before our name converges with His, as in the life of Christ, who Ray reveals is the Autobiography of the Biography. 8)
To be like HIM offers no handles to hang anything upon, no safety ropes, just free fall, fall for God. Ray's "creed", likewise offers no formulas, no directives, no judgements and no sentiments. Just plain straight talk that closes any door to assumptions or speculations.
As HE IS, so are we, in the world.
For me, Time is just a sentiment for those who want to argue, resist or refuse the passage of time being swallowed up into Eternity. :)
Arc