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=> Testimonies / Prayer Requests / Fellowship => Topic started by: lilitalienboi16 on April 16, 2014, 03:47:03 PM
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Today as I was driving back home after dropping off my daughter at daycare, I ran into a young man perhaps not much older than myself who was holding a "homeless, anything helps" sign. He looked a bit dirty though he was doing his best to look appropriate with what appeared to be an old dress shirt, tie, and some dirty slacks which he held up by the suspenders around his shoulders. As I approached the red light in my vehicle where this man was standing, I found myself wanting to help him out, give him some of the money I had on me but when I checked my wallet all I could find was a few 20$ bills and a 100$ bill. In the few seconds I stood there at the light waiting for it to turn green, I couldn't bring myself to just give him the 20$. As I drove past him, the guilt grew and grew and my shame became heavy. Now here I am at home.. reflecting on my conduct, wishing I had simply just given him the 20$. I know the Lord provides for us so I should not fear giving all I have but I just couldn't get the spiritual strength to do it. An ocean of doubt raced through my mind in that moment of truth such as: "What if he's not homeless?" "What if he's going to use the money to buy drugs?" In the end... I realized they were all just excuses I was making so as not to have to give him of mine. In the end, fear and selfishness triumphed. I do not live in want and I never go a day without a roof over my head or food in my belly. The Lord has been so very merciful to me but in my selfishness, the selfishness I now loathe, I could not give mercy over judgement. I could not freely give of what I have freely received. A good christian hypocrite.
Thanks for listening to my rant, I needed to get this off my chest.
God bless,
Alex
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If the Lord provided for you does He not also provide for him
All is of God
Rhys
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Don't know what to say on this one. There are many professional panhandlers around today and I know of times that people have approached someone holding a 'will work for food' sign and offered them an opportunity to go to the house and do some work and it was turned down. They wanted the money....not the work.
I guess we just have to be able to discern the Lord's voice at times like this. If I'm in a line at the grocery checkout and a young lady with a couple kids is trying to by basic foods but doesn't have enough money I would be glad to dip into my wallet and give her $20. Lots of hurting people out there today but lots of opportunists and those gaming the system as well. We just need all the discernment we can get today I'm afraid. I really don't want to be helping someones alcohol or drug habit.
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I have been young, and now am old;
Yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken,
Nor his descendants begging bread. Psalm 37:25
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work,
neither should he eat. 2Thess. 3:10
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Words of wisdom. I really needed it and you all contributed wisely to my emotional predicament.
Arion, thank you for the personal example of a time you offered bread for work but were refused.
John I especially appreciate the scriptures and they compliment nicely Arion's example.
All is of God, exactly as Rhys put it.
His family is one mind and spirit indeed. The mind of Christ.
Thank you greatly brothers and sisters.
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Reminds me of the time my wife and I were taking groceries to the car.
A woman walks up from the parking lot and ask for money.
I pulled out my wallet and hand her 5 dollars.
She starts complaining that that's not enough, and she has five kids and so on.
I didn't give her a cent more because of her attitude.
As we were leaving a guy walks up, talks to her and they enter the store.
Was he pimping her? that was my impression.
Joel
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Reminds me of the time my wife and I were taking groceries to the car.
A woman walks up from the parking lot and ask for money.
I pulled out my wallet and hand her 5 dollars.
She starts complaining that that's not enough, and she has five kids and so on.
I didn't give her a cent more because of her attitude.
As we were leaving a guy walks up, talks to her and they enter the store.
Was he pimping her? that was my impression.
Joel
Hard to believe I was that guy :P
Rhys
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I have been young, and now am old;
Yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken,
Nor his descendants begging bread. Psalm 37:25
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work,
neither should he eat. 2Thess. 3:10
Joh_17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
lets not get ahead of ourselves here that pride of having a job and revelling in it may be an idol, perhaps the answer may be - give as you are led... charity is a good thing
Our work is to serve the king - perhaps, slaving in Egypt is better though, not sure, its tough when you get put into chains, what is our bread if not spiritual food...
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I hear the 'what if he's gonna buy a beer or drugs' thing all the time. I mean even when I was a kid I'd hear my folks say something like that and now I'm an adult and that's still a common thing people say when talking about kicking down some money for a homeless guy.. Why does it bother people if a dude buys a beer with that money?
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I hear the 'what if he's gonna buy a beer or drugs' thing all the time. I mean even when I was a kid I'd hear my folks say something like that and now I'm an adult and that's still a common thing people say when talking about kicking down some money for a homeless guy.. Why does it bother people if a dude buys a beer with that money?
The "dude" should get a job and by honest labor earn the money to pay for his own beer. After of course, providing for the needs of his own family and household.
The Scriptures are replete with admonitions that a man should work and provide for his own needs.
Just flip through the Book of Proverbs and you will find multiple Scriptures along those lines.
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I hear the 'what if he's gonna buy a beer or drugs' thing all the time. I mean even when I was a kid I'd hear my folks say something like that and now I'm an adult and that's still a common thing people say when talking about kicking down some money for a homeless guy.. Why does it bother people if a dude buys a beer with that money?
The "dude" should get a job and by honest labor earn the money to pay for his own beer. After of course, providing for the needs of his own family and household.
The Scriptures are replete with admonitions that a man should work and provide for his own needs.
Just flip through the Book of Proverbs and you will find multiple Scriptures along those lines.
John you frequently make assumptions.. and then make comments based on those assumptions.. and then delete parts of your posts or entire posts all together. I think theres a lot to be said about controling your toungue in scripture as well. Proverbs also has a lot to say about the fool who is quick to speak nonsense as opposed to the wise who controls his toungue.
Controlling ones toungue is a lifelong pursuit and if one makes this his ambition then he will probably not have very much spare time to worry about whether or not the homeless guy on the corner is deserving of his charity or not... If its in ones heart to give he will give. If not he wont. Its that simple. No need to try and guess whether he's gonna buy beer or what have you. Just the simple fact that a man is asking for help and another man is either in a position to oblige or not.
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I hear the 'what if he's gonna buy a beer or drugs' thing all the time. I mean even when I was a kid I'd hear my folks say something like that and now I'm an adult and that's still a common thing people say when talking about kicking down some money for a homeless guy.. Why does it bother people if a dude buys a beer with that money?
This I have discovered is a foul arrogant spirit and it is in most beats, it elevates and is condescending and we ,instead of giving by faith, rationalize the thing and we fall into the trap. Coming from where i have, its become kinda 2nd nature to ,if i have, just give what i have with the original motive in mind which is "get something to eat or drown your miserable life out" doesn't matter ,if the motive is Godly.
Somefolks cant get a job etc anyway, we will always have the poor among us - perhaps its time to really count our blessings
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Wait, are some of you saying that it doesn't matter what they do with the money, as long as you give then you're doing good? If so, that sounds similar to some emails Ray has gotten where people say they tithe and if the minister does something wrong with the money, well that's between him and God. Then Ray comes back and says God does not bless you for giving money to a charlatan minister.
I'm all for helping the less fortunate, but I can't give money to someone I know nothing about. I can only help those around me.
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Id rather buy a homeless guy a 6 pack than tithe to a charlatan minister.
It would suck to be homeless and if a cold beer helps a guy get through his day then I'm ok with it, that's all. I don't want to judge him for wanting to numb his pain with alcohol if that's the case.
Let me also say that I equally don't want to judge a man for not wanting to contribute to a homeless guys alcoholism. That's totally understandable.
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i think it comes down to a matter of whenever in the situation alex found himself in, that being, coming upon a person standing on a corner and assuming them to be homeless (which was most likely true), and being blessed with a job ourself and having a few $20's and a $100 bill with us, the guilt from not giving of what we had was from God to your heart. i believe it honors Christ more to give out of the compassion felt when approaching the homeless person, than to judge why they are there/what they will do with the money. compassion/charity/love agape are from the Spirit of God within us. that is what Christ taught in the commandment of love. i also believe, that especially knowing we would (God willing) be receiving another paycheck, in this particular case presented by alex, the $100 bill should have been given.
i know there are many who do not believe the same way. but, that too is of God.
claudia
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ha h ha Imagine what we would say if we had to give an account for all the Money we have received from God during our lifetime - when we were part of the world and whlst being a servant, now that would be interesting.
There is Now..... no condemnation for them that are in Christ who do not walk according to the flesh (rational human Mind) but are led/walked by the spirit
so dont panic if you give, its done, and if you dont, it wasnt
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Over 30 years ago, I had an experience that still haunts me today due to my "lack of action." I was standing behind an elderly lady in the grocery store and when her items were rung up, she did not have quite enough money to pay for everything in her basket. As I stood there watching, I remember feeling so sad for her as she selected which items to return so as to have enough money to pay her bill. I also remember this little lady had the sweetest looking face, although she was obviously embarrassed by what was happening, and of course, the cashier was looking impatient because this was holding up the line.
Immediately after I left the grocery store, I began feeling this overwhelming shame for not stepping up and helping this lady. I regret to this day that I did not have, at that moment, the presence of mind to have just paid the difference that was due. Although this experience is very different from panhandlers asking for money, it has, however, affected how I handle any such situations. :'(
René
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Why are the poor always with us?
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Why are the poor always with us?
I have never thought to really ask that question- I've only accepted it's truth. But now it seems obvious the poor are with us to fulfill the will of God in their lives but also for us to show mercy and wisdom and love. Of course. Such a good question!
Months ago I saw a woman on the side of the road with a sign and she had her head down and she was crying. My heart went out to her. I was in my car on a busy road and I had a doctors appointment I was almost late for. I wanted to stop, and I didn't want the doctor to wait (well, you know they don't wait, they charge you and give up your slot). So, I went to my appointment and when I was done I came back to where she had been sitting. I thought I would park the car and get out and speak with her- but to my regret she was gone. All I could do was pray that God would lead her to safety and a better way. I don't always react like that- as some have already said we have to respond to the Spirits leading.
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Alex:
Remember, Satan loves to use guilt and shame on all of us. It is one of his major attacks on everyone. He walks about as a roaring lion, seeking WHOM he may devour. Put on the helmut of salvation, which guards your mind, (Rejoice; again I say Rejoice!), and lift up your shield of faith (like your avatar does), which extinguishes every flaming arrow of the wicked one.
Dean
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Alex:
Remember, Satan loves to use guilt and shame on all of us. It is one of his major attacks on everyone. He walks about as a roaring lion, seeking WHOM he may devour. Put on the helmut of salvation, which guards your mind, (Rejoice; again I say Rejoice!), and lift up your shield of faith (like your avatar does), which extinguishes every flaming arrow of the wicked one.
Dean
Thank you dean :) I pray all is well with you brother. I don't hear from you much!
Rene,
I know the feeling. I don't know if this situation will affect the other ones to come as every situation seems to need a: "Trying of the spirits" so to speak. I do think though that our situations were slightly different.
I think everyone here has offered great insight and gave me exactly what I was looking for. How to react the next time I run into this man? I'm not sure... maybe I won't react at all and wait for the right moment and time to give of my heart generously. I think its a bit of both. If I become a doctor and have my own place of business and I see someone in need, perhaps I will offer them the chance to come and do some work for a day or two, to help them earn their way back onto two feet. I like that idea much more. Besides, it feels good to work; When we can put our skills to use and know we are earning our bread (though all is of God, of course. I speak in the relativistic sense), it feels good!
I'm glad my little ordeal helped spark such discussion and I hope everyone profited from the it. I appreciate everyones contribution on the matter.
God bless,
Alex
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When you give it is a spiritual blessing to the giver.
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OK, Alex...I had a 'similar' experience just today. For the third time in six months, somebody came to my car while I was out on break from work and told me "he and his wife" needed some help (money) to get back home out of town. He used the same 'speech' as I'd heard at least once before. "I work at Such-n-such restaurant and can give you a free meal."
Can't say I was a 'cheerful giver', but I gave him $5. He asked me if I could spare more. I told him what I made an hour and suggested $5 was enough to buy enough gas to get to work. He then left me, and started up with others.
Then what seemed 'right' for me to do was spare these other people! So I started my car and pulled up along-side him, motioning him to come over. He didn't want any of that, however, and got into his car. His "wife" was a dude. And his tags said he lived in the same county the store is in, not in the town he claimed to be from. They left, and I followed. They sped up and nearly crashed into another vehicle that was going too fast through an empty part of the lot. He kept waving back at me, but I didn't reply (resisted the urge to throw my own little one-fingered wave back at him). I just followed him till he left the lot.
This is the "new covenant" for me...there IS no 'law' instructing us in every situation. There is 'wisdom' and 'action' and 'spirit' (including the manner in which it is done) behind that action. And there is 'judgement' on that action and on the spirit (and manner) behind it and on the "wisdom" (or lack thereof) which caused us to take that course. We live and learn and TRY throughout all of it to keep a soft heart while developing a sound mind.
The 'insight' I got was worth the $5. I'd pay $5 for similar lessons. ;D The 'wisdom' gained through having heard the same 'lie' at least once before and the desire to spare our other customers (most of whom are of lower income and many of whom are elderly) made me do what I did. Did I do right? I think so...in this instance. If I didn't, I expect to hear about it. I didn't flip him off. I didn't chase him. I didn't approach him with any visible malice or violence. If his heart had been pure, he might have even thought I'd changed my mind and was going to double up on my $5.
Now, THIS guy wasn't 'poor'...he was lazy and a lying scammer. In a different circumstance, I might behave differently...but that will have to wait both for the 'different circumstance' and the 'workmanship' of God in me THEN and THERE. Giving CAN BE proactive, too.
One last thing, Alex...I haven't written you a 'law' either. ;D You're situation was different, and your 'guy' wasn't approaching people on a retail parking lot who might have either been 1. Afraid to make their wallets 'available' in a wide-open public space, or 2. Afraid to NOT give to this guy.
You still have to do what YOU do WHEN you do it. There is ABSOLUTELY no way to escape life.
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This is the "new covenant" for me...there IS no 'law' instructing us in every situation. There is 'wisdom' and 'action' and 'spirit' (including the manner in which it is done) behind that action. And there is 'judgement' on that action and on the spirit (and manner) behind it and on the "wisdom" (or lack thereof) which caused us to take that course. We live and learn and TRY throughout all of it to keep a soft heart while developing a sound mind.
If this is what the lof does for us, then I want more of it!
and God know I need it!
Tks Dave for sharing this wisdom. :)
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dear forum members, i received the following email today from a member of the body of Christ who visits the forum. the email is in regard to alex's thread about giving money to the homeless. i am posting the email here so that others might be able to read it and take it to heart. i will go on record saying i agree with everything written in the email to me.
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A certain someone quoted the scripture about, "If a man will not work, he will not eat." Where is the second witness to that verse? It is a verse that is often used as a justification for people being hardhearted toward their fellow human beings, and it is a verse that self-righteous folks use to stand in judgment of others. For example, "he needs to get a job."
That same attitude was exhibited by the older brother in the parable of the Prodigal Son.
Luke 15:25-30
25 “Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27 ‘Your brother has come,’ he replied, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.’
28 “The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29 But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’
Sounds like the older brother was just a tad self-righteous, was he not? How is that attitude any different than those who judge the homeless man for not working, and consequently, would refuse to help him because he doesn't have a job? What did the Lord do for the 5,000? They weren't working. They were following him around, sitting like bums on the side of a hill, but did the Lord feed them? Yes, He did. Did the Lord demand them to “go get a job”? No, this is what He did:
John 6:5-13
5 When Jesus looked up and saw a great crowd coming toward him, he said to Philip, “Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?” 6 He asked this only to test him, for he already had in mind what he was going to do.
7 Philip answered him, “It would take more than half a year’s wages to buy enough bread for each one to have a bite!”
8 Another of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, spoke up, 9 “Here is a boy with five small barley loaves and two small fish, but how far will they go among so many?”
10 Jesus said, “Have the people sit down.” There was plenty of grass in that place, and they sat down (about five thousand men were there). 11 Jesus then took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. He did the same with the fish.
12 When they had all had enough to eat, he said to his disciples, “Gather the pieces that are left over. Let nothing be wasted.” 13 So they gathered them and filled twelve baskets with the pieces of the five barley loaves left over by those who had eaten.
The Lord didn't demand for those 5000 people to go get jobs. He didn't judge them for not working. If they were following Him, they weren't out working. Yet, the Lord fed them. Some who responded would dare to stand in judgment of the Lord because He gave food to “those lazy bums who refused to work.” They may not say it openly, but the attitude of their hearts is exactly that. They would condemn the Lord, so they could feel justified on their ivory towers. They are the servant in this parable:
Matthew 18:23-35
23“Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. 26“At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28“But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. 29“His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’
30“But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
For those demanding the homeless should “get a job,” God has shown them mercy in that they have a job, a roof over their heads, food in their bellies, and money to purchase food with, but they (having received all they have from God) would refuse to give to their fellow servant. God calls them a wicked servant, and they need to “examine themselves” because their attitude is WRONG.
Another witness from scripture: what was the real reason why Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed? God does not provide the reason in the story itself. He gave it later through the prophet Ezekiel.
Ezekiel 16:49
49“ ‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
The typical response is, “What if he/she buys booze with it?” First, what they do with the money is none of the giver's business. Second, one of the very reasons God made alcohol was for this:
Proverbs 31:6-9
6Let beer be for those who are perishing, wine for those who are in anguish!
7Let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.
8Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute.
9Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.
If God uses one of us to give money to a homeless person, so that person can go buy a beer, so be it. It is none of our business. Is that homeless person in poverty and misery? Yes. Why would some begrudge that man/woman a beer, so he/she could forget his/her misery for a time? To be blunt, if God has that person use the money to go buy alcohol, it is none of our business, and we need to keep our self-righteous noses out of it!
What about the parable of the Good Samaritan? The “holy” people left the guy to die on the side of the road. Who did God use to show that man mercy? A Samaritan.
Micah 6:8
He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.
Matthew 25:40
"The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'
You also never know when a homeless man/woman might be an angel.
Hebrews 13:2
“Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it.”
And what about these scriptures?
Matthew 5:7
“Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.”
Luke 6:30
“Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.”
Luke 6:31
"Do to others as you would have them do to you."
Luke 6:32-36
"32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.
33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that.
34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full.
35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.
36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."
Did God give any exceptions to these commands? Did God say we could choose who we give to and who we don't? Did God give us a list of conditions that we can use to determine whether a person is worthy of our charity? No. No, and No. Does God demand you earn His mercy and His charity? Why, then, do we demand that our fellow servants earn ours?
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Nice one Claudia
Thanks for posting
Rhys
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2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, we commanded this to you: If anyone does not desire to work, neither let him eat.
2Th 3:11 For we hear some are walking in a disorderly way among you, not working at all, but being busybodies.
2Th 3:12 And we command such and exhort through our Lord Jesus Christ that working with quietness, they may eat their own bread.
2Th 3:13 And you, brothers, do not lose heart in well doing.
2Th 3:14 But if anyone does not obey our Word through the letter, mark that one, and do not associate with him, that he be shamed.
2Th 3:15 But do not count him as one hostile, but warn him as a brother.
2Th 3:16 And may the Lord of peace Himself continually give peace to you in every way. The Lord be with all of you.
How many commandments do you count? And to whom are they given?
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Here's what I come up with, trying hard not to be a lawyer. ;D
2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, we commanded this to you: If anyone does not desire to work, neither let him eat.
2Th 3:11 For we hear some are walking in a disorderly way among you, not working at all, but being busybodies.
2Th 3:12 And we command such and exhort through our Lord Jesus Christ that working with quietness, they may eat their own bread.
2Th 3:13 And you, brothers, do not lose heart in well doing.
2Th 3:14 But if anyone does not obey our Word through the letter, mark that one, and do not associate with him, that he be shamed.
2Th 3:15 But do not count him as one hostile, but warn him as a brother.
2Th 3:16 And may the Lord of peace Himself continually give peace to you in every way. The Lord be with all of you.
To "some walking in a disorderly way among you, not working at all (not desiring to work) but being busybodies".
1. Don't eat.
2. Be shamed
3. Work with quietness so you may eat your own bread.
To "Brothers"...and I'm assuming he is primarily talking to those NOT "walking in a disorderly way...not working at all, but being busybodies." :
1. Do not lose heart in well-doing.
To all he is writing to and addressing: (The Lord be with all of you):
1. Mark that one who does not obey our Word through this letter.
2. Do not associate with him.
3. But Do not count him as one hostile (an enemy).
4. Warn him as a brother.
If EVERYBODY obeys, the EVERYBODY will be completely part of the ALL, to whom he says, "Do not lose heart in well-doing" and "May the Lord of Peace Himself continually give peace to you in every way."
Is this a spiritual match to at least some of the above?
Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, (do not be weary in well-doing?) and so fulfil the law of Christ (do not count him as one hostile?).
Gal 6:3 For if a man think himself to be something (busybody?), when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. (Warn him as a brother?)
Gal 6:4 But let every man prove his own work and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. (work with quietness so they may eat their own bread?),
Gal 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden. (And may the Lord of peace Himself continually give peace to you in every way. The Lord be with all of you.)
Anyway, just wanted to get a bit past the 'verse-slinging' and look a little deeper. Your results may vary.
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But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." John 5:17
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my result is this dave. in the verses you brought forth from galatians, paul was speaking directly to brother believers. even the ones who were not working and were just hanging out sticking their noses into the business of others.
but, if you continue past the verses you used we find that in galatians 6:10, paul writes: "therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers."
the "all people" in vs. 10 surely includes homeless people standing on corners, suffering scorn and everything else going on in their particular lives, asking for help. all is of God.
the scripture verses in 2 thess. 3 were also paul exhorting the body of believing brothers to not be idle, but to follow his example of working for your own food so as not to be a burden on others. and he highlighted that some of the brothers were leading unruly lives, not working, and being busybodies. and if you read further down to verse 15 paul tells the believing brothers to not regard the idle gossiping brothers as an enemy, but to warn him as a "brother".
obviously the verses in 2 thess. 3 are directly to the believing body of brothers. they are not being spoken to the hopeless, homeless "all people" of galatians 6:10. we find many of those "all people" who, through God's working circumstances in their lives, now find themselves on a corner asking for help. some even with children and a pet.
so i stand on my earlier statement that i believe all contained in the email i posted from a fellow believer to be truth. and, in alignment with the written Word of God, and Jesus Christ the Word in the flesh.
claudia
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I really don't think this is too difficult. If God tells you to help someone than do that. If he doesn't tell you to help someone then don't. It's discernment and we're supposed to be able to hear the shepherds voice....are we not?
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i will go on record saying i agree with everything written in the email to me.
I would not say I agree with everything written. But I would not say disagree either. I would tweak a few statements before giving my stamp of approval. I have been watching this thread, and could only stand back and shake my head.
I didn't put in my two cents because I think laying the truth out here would violate the "do not bring a new teaching" policy to this forum. I'm not aware of any of Ray's teachings that have gone where this needs to. Although he came close when he was talking about carnality.
The only thing I can think of is Jack Nicholson shouting "You couldn't handle the truth".
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Seems clear to me, Claudia, that it is indeed BOTH 'sets' he is talking to and about in Thess 3.
Makes Heb 4:12,13 "...for the reckoning of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart; and there is not a created thing not manifest before Him, but all things are naked and open to His eyes--with whom is our reckoning." that much more sensible, I think.
When His judgments are on the earth, the WHOLE WORLD will learn righteousness. Amen. Him that "works", and him that "doesn't work".
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in re-reading thessalonians chapter 3 several times this evening, i still believe in this chapter paul is speaking to the believers at thessalonica only. not to any unbelievers standing on a corner somewhere asking for help.
some of the believers there were following the example paul and his men set of working for your own food, and others among their number of believers were not following paul's example of work, but were instead being idle busybodies.
so i guess i am not understanding how this particular scripture reference is speaking of the poor, lost souls standing on street corners asking for help. no matter what town, city, county, state, or country the corner is found.
yes, the poor and less fortunate, no matter how they got there, will always be among us. and yes, God's love will also always be present with us.
all glory and praise to God the Father of Christ Jesus our Saviour! :)
claudia
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"...so i guess i am not understanding how this particular scripture reference is speaking of the poor, lost souls standing on street corners asking for help..."
Perhaps they aren't, Claudia...but as I said, I just wanted to get past the verse-slinging and dig a little deeper into the passage from which it was 'lifted'. Whether it applies to all the poor of the world or not, "If a man will not (has no desire to) work, let him not eat..." is NOT a commandment to the 'feeders'.
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I'm not opposed to helping people that are in need, and are asking for a handout.
God is merciful to me, why shouldn't I show mercy, and concern for those less fortunate then myself?
I would like to do more to help the poor, fatherless, and widows that are widows indeed, than I currently do.
There are billions of people that Satan is out to steal, and to kill, and to destroy (John 10:10) in one way or another.
Do I always do the right thing? certainly not, but I hope to some day. Being sensitive to the Spirit, and following his lead will never be the wrong thing to do. That in it's self is a work in progress.
I could relate a story about an able bodied man, and his wife living with her elderly mother who draws a very meager S.S. check, and neither one have held a legitimate job in years. They have their reasons, but I won't go into all the details because I know God has his reasons for all that going on.
The Bible has many verses that requires help being given to the poor, and the needy. A person can be rich and also be poor in spirit needing a loving God, and assistance from fellow human beings.
I would suggest that there are at least two witnesses in the scriptures where we can know God's mind concerning work.
2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither shall he eat.
Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Also check out Proverbs 6:6-11, Proverbs 20:4, and Proverbs 26:13-16.
slug'gard, n. lazy person.
Joel
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As I mentioned in an earlier post, making a judgement based on an assumption is a fools business.. Aren't a lot of these posts based on an assumption that a homeless person asking for help is a lazy bum who chooses to beg for help rather than have a steady job? I think most homeless people work harder than me.. Digging through dumpsters in order to eat food that you and I throw away would be a terribly hard job and humiliating too. I think the homeless guy pushing a cart full of cans and bottles to recycle is working harder than me.
I think assuming that all homeless people are lazy bums is a convenient way to justify the love of money in the one doing the assuming.
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I think assuming that all homeless people are lazy bums is a convenient way to justify the love of money in the one doing the assuming.
And now you are assuming......... and I assume that this entire tread is about each of us trying to justify our OWN thoughts and actions......... and we sure love it when we can get others to agree with us!
Just sayin.........
Sorry folks, I'm not trying to come down on anyone, but reading this thread makes me wonder........ if ALL is OF GOD as I read here almost every day, why is so much time and energy devoted to defending one's actions, and or dissing one another for their actions?????
Do we REALLY believe what we preach?????
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I think assuming that all homeless people are lazy bums is a convenient way to justify the love of money in the one doing the assuming.
And now you are assuming.........
I prefaced my statement with the words 'I think' which is showing that the statement is only my opinion. If I had made the same statement minus the words 'I think' then that would be an assumption.
I said 'I think' as an acknowledgement that my opinion may be wrong.
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2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither shall he eat.
Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Also check out Proverbs 6:6-11, Proverbs 20:4, and Proverbs 26:13-16.
slug'gard, n. lazy person.
Joel
[/qu
I have noticed this scripture quoted many times on the forum .. this, I believe is talking about the word - Jesus said the words that i speak they are spirit, so lets break these down and you may find that the bread you sweat for is the study of Gods word, If you do not work for this word you will not be fed ///you will not grow, we on the forum can get into the physical realm as well sometimes.
Why was Paul so grateful to the Philippians check Phil ch 4 v 13-19 out.
It is said Paul made tents for a living ... were these physical tents or spiritual tents ??
Jesus said the work that I do is to do the will of my father"My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to finish His work," Jesus told them. John 4 ...
Lastly but not least, when you get tired of slaving for pharaoh let us all know -
It is no eazy walk,this walk of faith, especially when the physical security we thought we have, starts getting dismantled by the Father.
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Ian, I believe it is talking about BOTH. Paul made physical tents AND "spiritual tents". I work for my employer, BUT I work as unto the Lord (at least when I do). The church met house to house and fed one another. The church also met heart to heart and "fed" one another. The down-side also exists in both 'realms'. There are the 'busybodies' who don't desire/will to work. There is an equivalent in the Spiritual.
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Ian, I believe it is talking about BOTH. Paul made physical tents AND "spiritual tents". I work for my employer, BUT I work as unto the Lord (at least when I do). The church met house to house and fed one another. The church also met heart to heart and "fed" one another. The down-side also exists in both 'realms'. There are the 'busybodies' who don't desire/will to work. There is an equivalent in the Spiritual.
Dave I actually removed an earlier reply, I see a little veering off the subject on my part, I hear you and it does make for logical sense I think what is going on in me is a tug between things spiritual and a forcing of things logical - logic says if one does not do physical work he shall go physically hungry and resort to begging physically - Perhaps we start by being spiritual dogs begging spiritual crumbs who can know, this word is so huge I feel like a crumb myself.
As for the rest it is all spiritual we are fed and we feed others spiritual things as we are led,most times we don't even know how we are being used by Our God .
We are told to walk not after/according to the flesh so that should leave no speculation regarding physical and spiritual work?
It has crossed my mind "how then does one survive a Physical world" few answers that dont quite make logical sense "Seek 1st the Kingdom" "the Just SHALL live by faith"don't worry for anything but in all things by prayer...
Faith is the only thing that is able to accomplish these needs, when the physical realm we so easily fall back on, is removed by God.
It is a PHYSICAL,FEARFUL, SWEAT though.
this however is only my 2 cents
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Ian, I really appreciate what Ray said pertaining to this. He said "we are not spiritual beings having a physical experience. We are physical beings having a spiritual experience." That clarified so much for me. Add to that the understanding that things "spiritual" are not necessarily "good"--despite how some people use the word. There is "spiritual wickedness" also.
I could preach now, but I'll spare you. ;D I'll just say life makes sense now.
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Ian, I really appreciate what Ray said pertaining to this. He said "we are not spiritual beings having a physical experience. We are physical beings having a spiritual experience." That clarified so much for me. Add to that the understanding that things "spiritual" are not necessarily "good"--despite how some people use the word. There is "spiritual wickedness" also.
I could preach now, but I'll spare you. ;D I'll just say life makes sense now.
Not to sure im with u.... perhaps type in the word spiritual in the search bar and see some of your responses to earlier Questions you responded to on matters spiritual.you cant move the goalposts now, I am not being argumentative either - this is important to me.
is it Physical bread we work for or is it Spiritual bread,
If all roads are blocked concerning employment am i an infidel Or not?
if folks con us for money to buy dope and get away with it, should we pray for such people or should we bitch an moan?
if folk are in need and we give should it be cheerfully or begrudgingly.
When Jesus left the disciples "Died" did they go back to there original physical disposition "I go a fishing"or is it a spiritual matter where without Christ we resort to/lean to our own physical understanding in order to survive
I may not have the finesse you guys have but i do know this, the word is spirit, the whole word. It is not understood by those who do not have spiritual ears.
What did that clarify for you? is spiritual wickedness a twisting of Christ[the word]? - wicker is the original word and it means to twist /weave, Im told
please be more specific like i said im not as sharp as you mods so if possible spell it out
Ian
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Maybe I had that coming. :-\ I can't necessarily 'explain it', but maybe illustrate it?
I work for physical bread. But in doing it, I learn spiritual lessons. I have the opportunity to love my co-workers, to work "as for the Lord", and challenges such as what to do with my money, and own up to my many failings. That's just a partial list. I am sure that genuine love is Spiritual. It's the first mentioned of the fruit of the Spirit, after all. For someone like me who really doesn't naturally LIKE many people and is rather naturally intensely self-absorbed, this is something of a miracle. But it's 'growing', not fully developed. The fact that I know this, is spiritual. I wasn't always like that. Life-experience under a sovereign God and my own weakness, stubbornness, and ignorance made me like this...so life experience under a sovereign God will 'unmake me' like this.
If all roads are blocked concerning employment, you are simply currently unemployed. There are reasons for it, and remedies too. Some of them may be 'physical' and some may be 'spiritual'--both reasons and remedies. I have absolutely no idea. Examine your own heart. The 'example' in that passage above wasn't about a man who had no job, but about people with no will to work. The first is physical, the second is spiritual. Spirit is about attitude, motive...things like that. That 'list' is incomplete too.
If folks con us for money to buy dope and get away with it, should we pray for such people or should we bitch and moan? Don't know. We will have done what we did. I might not feel 'inspired' to do either one. Then we examine our hearts (or not) and learn. Some of what we 'learn' may be wrong...always or in some situations. So we keep learning. Or not. Whatever we do, we're going to do SOMETHING. We'll get our 'report card' later...even if it is 5 seconds later. "Dave works and plays well with others, but needs to improve his study habits".
If folk are in need and we give should it be cheerfully or begrudgingly? The Lord loves a cheerful giver. When you give alms, don't be as the Pharisees who make a big show of it. How much is too much of a 'big show'? That's a spiritual question. How much 'cheer' must we muster? Is it OK to fake it? These are spiritual questions. The Lord knows the motives of our hearts. What's hidden will be made manifest.
"When Jesus left the disciples "Died" did they go back to there original physical disposition "I go a fishing" or is it a spiritual matter where without Christ we resort to/lean to our own physical understanding in order to survive."
I reckon they went fishing because they didn't know what else to do. But then they learned. And I don't know whether they never went fishing again. I'm just sure that if they did, they remembered every word that Jesus said to them...maybe the parable of the fishes especially? They physically went fishing and learned from the Lord a spiritual lesson. More than one, actually. But they wouldn't have learned it if they hadn't gone fishing...at least not that way and then. And part of the spiritual lesson involved them 'doing' literal things...can't be a fisher of men if you don't fish for men. You don't fish for men "symbolically" either.
Maybe "spiritual lessons" is too loaded a term too. I develop God's spiritual traits. I am conformed to the image of Christ. I become less of a babe and more of a mature person. I become less riddled with lust of the flesh, the eyes, and the pride of life and gain more 'contentment with Godliness'. I need these things more than a job, but having a job puts me in a better position to gain them. God has plopped us all down here in the flesh and in our circumstances. He has surrounded us with good and evil, both of which He uses to 'create us in His image'. In other words, we are physical beings having a Spiritual experience.
Better?
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I was beginning to think I'm spiritually wicked and sucking in theories rather than higher meanings.
Out of your response I'm getting - "an experience in literal/logical understanding is evil and an experience in spiritual enlightenment is good"... is that what you are saying ?
it does help some
thanks
Ian
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The way I see it Paul spent the first part of his life living, and acting according to the letter of the law.
When the Lord appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus his whole life was changed from that point on.
He was taught by the resurrected Savior for some time in the desert.
The letters that Paul wrote to the Churches are instructions, and teachings he obtained from inspiration (revelation) given him by the Lord.
Can the things Paul wrote be expanded on in Spiritual directions other than what is written? Sure, But we can back ourselves into a corner we can't get out of if we aren't careful.
Simply stated, Paul's writings are Spiritual revelations.
Joel
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interesting Joel, least im not the only one getting excited bout certain scriptures opening up - I do believe that the spiritual is in each and every word, that is why we need to take care with how we use it. The Word is holy, think about it, acts 27/28, to shake of a poisonous viper that appeared out of a piece of dry wood [the viper, the wood ,the ship ,the wrecked ship, the pieces of wreckage ] each has a greater meaning. If one is enabled to see the greater meaning then it is not literal anymore and this is good news we have grown up a wee bit - in those higher meanings are the keys to the kingdom
not sure what u mean by getting backed into a corner though
Ian
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Don't want to speak for Joel, but it could be what he is warning about is confusing 'spiritual' with 'symbolic' and leaving out the "physical" altogether...what some people term "spiritualizing ", though I think that's a basic misunderstanding of "spiritual".
We can get into thinking that 'this' always means 'that'. Circumcision is literal. They actually cut off the foreskin of 8-day-olds and converts to Judaism. They still do. Circumcision is symbolic. It's a symbol of the cutting away of the fleshly nature and convenant with God. Circumcision is Spiritual. The 'circumcision without hands' that Paul talks about. That doesn't happen to a foreskin...it happens in the heart. No matter the presence or absence of your physical foreskin, if one is "spiritually" circumcised, he is undergoing the 'cutting away' of his carnal-mindedness and a new covenant with God.
Jesus took up His cross. He literally and physically died. Paul said "I am crucified with Christ." Literal, symbolic, or Spiritual? As I understand it, Peter WAS crucified...but he was "crucified" many years before that happened, and many times too.
I was beginning to think I'm spiritually wicked and sucking in theories rather than higher meanings.
Out of your response I'm getting - "an experience in literal/logical understanding is evil and an experience in spiritual enlightenment is good"... is that what you are saying ?
it does help some
thanks
Ian
Well, no that's not what I'm saying...but I'm going to have to leave this there.
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yp definitely missing each other on this one
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Hey Alex,
Look at all the controversy you caused. One day you will be this rich doctor.
Next time you see this bum begging a handout (which no decent man would do), give him the $20.
It will bring peace to the Forum. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hey Alex,
Look at all the controversy you caused. One day you will be this rich doctor.
Next time you see this bum begging a handout (which no decent man would do), give him the $20.
It will bring peace to the Forum. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Oh if only John! If only! I don't even think I'd know what to do with too much money, I've never had alot of it though I've been blessed to have very supportive parents so that I never go in need.
A strange work the Lord is doing.. where will it go? I don't know. I Just hope it ain't in the opposite direction of Him. I don't want riches and fame, I Just want to do what I know in my heart is right and good the days of my life so that in the end, when the time of my rest is upon me, I may not be entirely ashamed of my conduct. Though I'm not going to lie.. a nice house, a pool and a spa as well, and some vacation time every now and then certainly sounds really nice...
Here's to all the future bums and future 20$! May God have mercy on us all.
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alex, i was running some errands earlier this afternoon and came up to a red light where a homeless man was standing. i gave him a $20 bill and told him it was from alex. he looked at me puzzled but said thank you, then with a few more words from him giving thanks to God, he went back up into the grove of trees where he was living.
claudia
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Claudia, what a good heart God has given you. I think when God nudges me I will do the same thing - from Alex in God's name. :)
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alex, i was running some errands earlier this afternoon and came up to a red light where a homeless man was standing. i gave him a $20 bill and told him it was from alex. he looked at me puzzled but said thank you, then with a few more words from him giving thanks to God, he went back up into the grove of trees where he was living.
claudia
That was very sweet of you Claudia, thank you!
There is no need though to mention me! Give as God moves you, a cheerful giver, right? I think that's the lesson here.. no one can tell you when it is an appropriate time to give or when it is not. No one can judge you on these matters either. It is between the spirit of God and the person.
God bless and thank you everyone for a very edifying discussion.
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Thanks a lot Alex. You cost me $40 today. God put me to a test.
I got back from lunch about an hour ago. I just got out of my vehicle. Two people came from nowhere; they were a young man and woman. The young man asked me for money for food. I'm surprised anyone asks me for a handout because I always wear my Winston Churchill war dog face in public. I rolled my eyes and reached into my wallet. The young woman then rubbed her very skinny stomach and said she was pregnant. I said, "I don't believe either of you." I gave the young man two twenty dollar bills. He thanked me. The woman repeated that she was pregnant. We went our separate ways. End of story.
I thought about you Alex. This makes me more righteous than you and proves an accountant is more generous than a potential physician. ;D
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Thanks a lot Alex. You cost me $40 today. God put me to a test.
I got back from lunch about an hour ago. I just got out of my vehicle. Two people came from nowhere; they were a young man and woman. The young man asked me for money for food. I'm surprised anyone asks me for a handout because I always wear my Winston Churchill war dog face in public. I rolled my eyes and reached into my wallet. The young woman then rubbed her very skinny stomach and said she was pregnant. I said, "I don't believe either of you." I gave the young man two twenty dollar bills. He thanked me. The woman repeated that she was pregnant. We went our separate ways. End of story.
I thought about you Alex. This makes me more righteous than you and proves an accountant is more generous than a potential physician. ;D
Oh john, you're such a hoot and a holler! The way healthcare is going and with all the negativity and hatred I see in the media towards physicians, even if I do become a physician, I won't have much of anything to give if things continue as they are. Hey... at least the government and the insurance companies will have their piece. Unfortunately for the average person, its the physicians that treat patients and help ameliorate, by the grace of God, each individual's condition and NOT the insurance companies or government. In other words, at this rate, soon there won't be any practicing physicians or at the least not very many of them!
I'm glad you called it like it was john. There is power even in that.
God bless,
Alex
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when people say to me "don't give to the homeless they might spend it on beer" I think to myself...do I always do the good and righteous thing with the money that God gives me?
The answer if your wondering ...is NO I don't. So if God gives to me without putting a string attached to it then why should I feel I can do the same for others?
If they ask, and you are able, and your heart wants to...then give freely
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If they ask, and you are able, and your heart wants to...then give freely
I also appreciate how Jesus admonishes us not to broadcast to the others the good deeds that we do, because when we do this, we have received the only reward we will get. Just food for thought. 8)
Matt 6:1-4 - "Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. 2 “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
René
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Lighten up people. Save the sermons. I was just kidding with Alex.
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.
Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph. 2:8-9 8)
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Lighten up people. Save the sermons. I was just kidding with Alex.
No, I like to keep things nice and HEAVY. ;) ;D :P
René
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Lighten up people. Save the sermons. I was just kidding with Alex.
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.
Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph. 2:8-9 8)
Hey now.. i thought you were serious about being an accountant? Dangit! I thought I had finally figured out what you do for a living john!! ;D ;D
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Lighten up people. Save the sermons. I was just kidding with Alex.
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.
Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph. 2:8-9 8)
Hey now.. i thought you were serious about being an accountant? Dangit! I thought I had finally figured out what you do for a living john!! ;D ;D
Everything I said was true. It had just happened and I thought of this email and decided to kid you about it.
I am an old dog of an accountant. Been a CPA for over 35 years.
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there is a point here that is being missed. two scriptures If we live by the
spirit let us walk by the Spirit. the other scripture is you sow in the flesh you reap the flesh sow in the Spirit you reap in the Spirit.
There is just too many situation we don't know what to do about so we must be led by the Holy Spirit because God knows what we should do. The answer doesn't come from our minds but from God, by the Holy Spirit and you have the right to mess up and learn. You will take the test again if you fail. Prayer,
gives us a lot of answers and many times I do nothing rather than do something but when it comes to giving personality i would rather get taken for a few dollars than not give when some seems to be in need and i have my heart strings playing. that is an personnel opinion about giving.
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there is a point here that is being missed. two scriptures If we live by the
spirit let us walk by the Spirit. the other scripture is you sow in the flesh you reap the flesh sow in the Spirit you reap in the Spirit.
There is just too many situation we don't know what to do about so we must be led by the Holy Spirit because God knows what we should do. The answer doesn't come from our minds but from God, by the Holy Spirit and you have the right to mess up and learn. You will take the test again if you fail. Prayer,
gives us a lot of answers and many times I do nothing rather than do something but when it comes to giving personality i would rather get taken for a few dollars than not give when some seems to be in need and i have my heart strings playing. that is an personnel opinion about giving.
Hi ez2u,
I just wanted to take the time to acknowledge your contribution and greatly appreciate it. Every bit of insight from my brothers and sisters in abundantly helpful to me. I'm trying to learn from those who have been through this infinitely more times than I have and apply what understanding God has given me to these insights. Going back through this thread is some great reminders of the Godly wisdom shared. I am so very thankful!
God bless,
Alex