bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: lareli on June 24, 2014, 11:22:34 PM
-
What is it about the great false church that makes it the false church.. Is it the hell doctrine and free will doctrine? The church that I grew up in was never big on the fire and brimstone preaching.. Actually I went to a bible study there once where the guy was teaching that hell wasn't real..
Also, why does God answer their prayers if they are praying to a false god?
-
Hi largeli,
Here is something about how the church went into apostasy, Ray painted a pretty vivid picture of what happened and it's the same to this day.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html -----
Peter thought, well this is the last days. Now he was right, he was inspired to write that because God did start pouring out His Spirit on Pentecost. So that was the last days. How long do the last days last? Until they are over. It’s been a pretty long time. But he didn’t finish the prophecy, he quoted Joel, but he didn’t finish all of Joel. Because it doesn’t all fit then. But the portion that he did quote, it does fit then.
You say, ‘but didn’t it mention heavenly signs.’ He said, you know these people aren’t drunk. These people are like the people that prophesied in Joel, where it says they shall dream dreams and see visions, all of that. And the sun shall not give it’s light and the moon shall turn to blood.
Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the day of the Lord come, That great and notable day.
Did that happen on Pentecost? Yes it did! How so? How did the sun not give it’s light? How did the moon instead of reflecting light, turn to blood?
Light is symbolic of God’s Truth. Jesus Christ is the light. The brightest physical symbol of light, brightness, this is our sun. So light comes from the strongest source. God - Jesus Christ is that light.
John the Baptist said, “that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light,” (John 3:19). But He was that light. The Son gives light, that’s direct revelation from God.
Now the moon is the reflected light. That should come through the church and through the ministry. They get it from the Son. The moon (church) reflects it’s light from the Son (Christ), it doesn’t have it’s own light (Truth). If the sun went out, the moon would go out, because the moon has no light, it’s reflected light.
So as the ministry gets light, they give it to the congregation, they feed the sheep.
But what did He say would happen, starting on Pentecost? The sun/Son isn’t going to give it’s light anymore. God is not going to give direct light to the people anymore. The light that should be coming, that was already given to the moon, to be reflected, now it’s not going to give it’s light. It’s going to be turned to blood. What is this talking about?
Their revelation from God was going to cease. Apostasy is going to set in. The church is going to go amuck and instead of teaching the light from God and passing it on, they are going to turn to blood. How so?
Well on that very day they stoned Stephen (Acts 7). Instead of giving light to the world as a secondary light, they turned to blood. They turned murderers.
Tomorrow we are going to go through and see how many men, who wanted to present God’s Word to everyday people like us, they had to pay with their lives. Well who would do such a dastardly thing? The moon! The secondary light of God’s Truth - the church - the Popes - the Bishops. If you even had…. you didn’t have to teach it or even read it, if you were found with a copy of Tyndale’s Bible, you were put to death. I mean it was pretty bad.
Tyndale was burned at the stake. Russ was burned at the stake, lots of people were burned at the stake. They kind of took the Catholics out of England for a while. Then bloody Mary came back and she wanted to bring back the Catholic church. Then she started burning people at the stake. She said, ‘I’m not doing anything to these people, that God isn’t going to do to them for all eternity. I’m not doing anything wrong.’ She didn’t see anything wrong with burning people at the stake. It’s unbelievable.
Calvin didn’t see anything wrong with burning people at the stake either. That man is so adored by so many. I mean considered the greatest theologian. He was, I mean absolutely the scum of the earth.
Martin Luther although he did a lot of good things, you just read what his attitude was towards the peasants. ‘Kill them all and make it dirty, make it fast.’ No mercy.
So it did start then. They went from teaching God’s Truth, they turned their hands to blood. They killed Stephen, a real saintly man, they killed him and gnawed on him with their teeth. They just despised that man. You don’t know what hatred is. Like I’ve said so many times, hell hath no fury like a Christian who’s just been told the Truth.
----------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
There are a lot of things, but I think hell and free will are by far the two biggest, because those are the doctrines that a) deny God's love and b) deny God's sovereignty. Ray said at the 2006 conference "the biggest blasphemers of God Almighty: the Church!" No matter how well they know the Bible, no matter how kind and caring they are, no matter how many good works they perform...if, at the end of the day, they still think most people are going to hell forever, they despise the word of God and blaspheme His name.
Remember Christ's words to the Pharisees? Fools, hypocrites, snakes....Ray noted in "Repentance and Guilty of All":
Let me tell you something, the scribes and the Pharisees never taught a doctrine this damnable. You listen to Jesus Christ. He called them everything but… I won’t say it. They never taught a doctrine half, a tenth, not a billionth as evil as what the church is teaching today. I’m telling you, this teaching of hell is the ultimate blasphemy. There is no greater sin that any human being can think or do, than to believe that the God that they worship will actually torture their mothers and fathers and some of their sisters and brothers and relatives in real fire for all eternity. It’s the ultimate sin. They think they are doing God a favor by teaching this.
As to your second question, God answering their prayers does not in any way prove that what they are teaching is right. (I have no doubt that people of other traditions and beliefs have also experienced answers to prayer, healings, etc.) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Matthew 7:22. They really did do these works, they aren't just making that up. I think that's part of Satan "appearing as an angel of light" (2 Cor. 11:14).
In that 2006 conference, Ray adds something important to keep in mind: "But we need the Church, don't be too hard on it. Let me tell you something: God doesn't call anyone to be one of His favorite chosen elect except from the Church. So we don't want to pooh-pooh the Church too bad, because that's where He gets His elect."
-
Thanks Kat and Extol..
Ray said God doesn't choose the elect except from the church... So if my wife and kids want to go to church, but I have 'come out of her' what can I do? I mean personally I don't mind going. But I've read comments on here to the effect of 'run the other way as fast as you can!' When it comes to going to church..
But then I remember listening to an audio where Ray talked about how he would go to church sometimes.. I can't find it but I think I saw it on YouTube. Ray was talking about how his son died and the pastor was super insensitive about it and used the tradgedy to challenge Ray about his beliefs pertaining to Gods will.. I hope I'm remembering that correctly.
-
Hi largely,
I think what you heard Ray say about going to church was before he understood these truths and exactly what the is.
If your family want to go to church and even you for that matter, then go. When it is time for you to come out the Holy Spirit indwelling will make it so uncomfortable to listen to their rhetoric you will have to come out.
We keep calling the organized church "THE church"... now the group that became the body of Christ, He called "MY church." Here is where this is explained in the article 'What Happened to the Church Jesus Built?.'
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html -------------
Jesus Christ said,
"I will build MY CHURCH and the gates of hell [hades/ unseen/ grave] shall not prevail [be prevailing] against it" (Matt. 16:18).
Prevail means to be of greater strength, to overcome, or to win out. So clearly from this statement, our Lord is telling us that His church will be under GREAT ATTACK AND ADVERSITY, however these evil forces will not prevail or be victorious in totally defeating His Church or bringing it to naught.
Let’s see just how the "gates of hell" have been attempting to annihilate the Church of God ever since its inception. And maybe even more important to my readers: Will everyone in the Church that Jesus built be in the first resurrection and rule and reign with Him in His kingdom? I will state right here, that the majority which make up the Seven Churches of Revelation will, most assuredly not, be in the first resurrection.
Let’s pick up at our parting Scripture from Part VII of this Series:
"And Saul [Paul] was consenting unto his [Stephen’s] death. And at that time there was a GREAT PERSECUTION AGAINST THE CHURCH which was at Jerusalem; and they were ALL SCATTERED ABROAD throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles… As for Saul, he made HAVOCK of the church, entering into every house, and hailing men and women committed them to prison. Therefore they that were SCATTERED ABROAD went every where preaching the word" (Acts 8:1,3-4).
"THE" CHURCH VS. "MY" CHURCH
During Jesus’ ministry, He spoke of "the" church and "My" church. There already existed "the church" (Matt. 18:17), at the very time that Jesus said He would build "MY CHURCH" (Matt. 16:18). For fifteen centuries God established Israel as a church:
"This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, ‘A Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; Him shall ye hear.’ This is HE, that was in the CHURCH in the wilderness with the angel which spoke to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers who received the lively oracles to give unto us: To whom our fathers WOULD NOT OBEY, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt" (Acts 7:37-39).
We could, of course, trace the church back through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, back to Noah, and indeed, back to Adam.
------------------------------------------------------
I thought of another place in an article specifically about who is in charge of the church after it's apostasy. Here is an excerpt from the article 'The Synagogue of Satan - There's One Near You.'
http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html ------------
A TRUTH NO LONGER TOLD IN SUNDAY SCHOOL OR CHURCH
John tells us that Satan has a "synagogue." Synagogue means "a gathering together, an assembly, a congregation." This should not sound strange to our ears, seeing that we have already learned from Paul’s writings:
"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed as into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the minister of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their work."
And so Satan has "false apostles," and "ministers of righteousness." Where then would we expect these false apostles and ministers of righteousness that belong to Satan, to reside? Why in "The synagogue of Satan," of course! And what do Satan’s ministers do that enables them to "deceive the whole world?" Paul again tells us:
"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."
And just where might we find such a "synagogue of Satan, with false apostles, and false ministers of righteousness, witnessing to the world with power, and signs and lying wonders?"
Certainly not in some macabre-looking, haunted-house structure with a giant marquee out front reading: "COME AND WORSHIP WITH SATAN AND HIS DEMONS"!
WHERE IS THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN?
The synagogue of Satan is located in the churches—in The Church!
"…you have tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and have found them liars" (Rev. 2:2.)
Where did the Ephesians try those false, lying, apostles? In some pagan temple or church down the street, or across town, or in some foreign land? Or maybe in the pagan religion of the Roman occupation? No, in the Church. Jesus Christ says:
"Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write… thou have tried them which say they are apostles [in the church of Ephesus], and are not" (Rev. 2:1a & 2b.)
Where did Jesus know these lying apostles? Why, in the Church, of course. Of what consequence would "lying apostles" of some pagan religion be to the churches of God in Asia?
And where did Jesus say the synagogue of Satan is located? Same place—in the Church:
"And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write… I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews [in the Smyrna church], and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan… And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write… I will make them of the synagogue of Satan [in the Philadelphia church], and are not but do lie…" (Rev. 2:8 & 9; 3:7 & 9.)
All seven of the churches were well aware of many pagan gods and pagan religions. These seven cities in Asia were filled with MANY PAGAN GODS.
The non-believing Ephesians worshipped Diana, who was associated with Artemis. Smyrna had temples to Apollo, Asclepia, Aphrodite, Cybele, Emperor Tiberius, and Zeus, and maybe most important of all, the Temple of Athena. Pergamum worshiped Zeus, Olympus, Athena, Dionysus, Asclepius ("The Saviour",) and also the God-Serpent and the God-Bull. Thyatira worshiped the Emperor, Thyatiran, Tyrimnos, and Pallas Athena. Sardis worshiped the goddess Artemis, and both goddesses Artemis and Cybele were commemorated on their local coinage. Philadelphia worshiped the sun god and serpent gods, although Dionysis was their major god. Laodicea worshiped Zeus Azeus and Men Karou.
Were these the false apostles and lying Jews of the synagogue of Satan. Was it the priests of these pagan gods and religions of the seven cities in Asia that God was warning the churches about?
Since when are the priests of paganism called APOSTLES? Since when are the followers of pagan religions and pagan gods called LYING JEWS? Since when are the temples of Zeus and Athena and Diana called SYNAGOGUES? No, these false apostles and lying Jews of the synagogue of Satan are in the churches of God.
And isn’t it ironic that in the two congregations that religious chart-makers tell us had NO spiritual flaws whatsoever, we find those residing who are specifically called lying Jews? No, Smyrna and Philadelphia, down through the centuries, have exactly the same spiritual flaws and heresies as did all of the other five churches of Asia.
THE THRONE OF SATAN THE DEVIL ALSO LOCATED
Now then, as the false apostles, and lying Jews, and synagogue of Satan are all located in the Church, where do you suppose we would find Satan’s throne, and Satan’s dwelling place to be located? Yes, that’s right: In the Church. Here is the Scriptural proof found in the messages to the church at Smyrna and Pergamos:
"Fear none of those things which you shall suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison…" (Rev. 2:10.)
"I know your works and where you dwell, even where [the same place where] Satan’s seat [Greek: throne] is… were Satan [also] dwells" (Rev. 2:13.)
Satan cannot imprison members of the Church unless Satan is in the Church. His throne is in the Church. His dwelling place is in the Church. His synagogue is in the Church.
And think not that Satan merely makes an occasional visit to the Church. No, Satan is permanently in the Church until God removes him. The Greek word from which the translators give us "dwelleth" in the KJV is kataoideo, and its meaning is: "To house permanently" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary, page 136.) Satan not only has his false apostles in the Church, and his congregation of unconverted lying Jews in the Church, and his synagogue in the Church, and his very throne in the Church, but Satan himself dwells permanently in the Church.
------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
If your family want to go to church and even you for that matter, then go. When it is time for you to come out the Holy Spirit indwelling will make it so uncomfortable to listen to their rhetoric you will have to come out.
Kat are you sure you're not taking your experience and making it the rule for everyone? Are you assuming that I haven't 'come out' because I'm not as uncomfortable as you are in a church service?
-
Hi largely,
Yes it is my experience, but I would not be an exception, the Holy Spirit would work the same way in all believers. If you believe what you are studying here is the truth, then you know the church does not teach the truth. When you come to a place where this truth/God is the most important thing, then you should realize that you have very little in common with those in church and certainly would find what they preach disturbing to your spirit. The church is very carnal mind and worldly...
James 4:4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
It will come a time when you will have to make a choice or at least you should get to a point when you can see the glaring difference in the truth and what the church teaches... why remain a part of that?
Mat 6:24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
v. 16 So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of My mouth.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
largeli,
As 'Ray said at the 2006 conference "the biggest blasphemers of God Almighty: the Church!" No matter how well they know the Bible, no matter how kind and caring they are, no matter how many good works they perform...if, at the end of the day, they still think most people are going to hell forever, they despise the word of God and blaspheme His name.'
I suppose that to hear 'christians' blaspheme your heavenly Father and His Name does not make you uncomfortable. To hear that God will condemn the majority of humankind to endless and indescribable torment and suffering should make you cringe and wiggle in your seat. They are assaulting the character of God and, in response, you shout a 'Praise the Lord' ? Hmmm!
It is to the degree that you reject these blasphemies that you will be ready to 'come out of her my people'.
I continued to go sporadically. But I realized that I could not continue to hear their lies and blasphemies. I had enough! They made me fume and wanted to rebut them, but I knew it would be useless. Honestly, they made me angry. But then I was reminded of their blindness.
May the Lord God continue to reveal His word to you.
-
largeli,
I don't think I'd feel terribly uncomfortable at church (I've actually gone once a year the past three years, when I'm visiting family out of state), but a church making you feel welcome and comfortable....that's the seduction of the harlot. If there were big screen TVs outside the doors showing people burning in fire and screaming in torment, it wouldn't be a very comfortable place, would it? Of course they don't want to show that, but it is what they believe.
Granted, not all churches are "fire and brimstone," but they still teach eternal separation from God (or at least annihilation.) Actually, when they are not in-your-face hell preachers, it is even more seductive. C.S. Lewis, for example. I am a big fan of C.S. Lewis--not his theology, but his writing. He was an exceedingly learned man, very smart, and when he talks about hell, it can make a lot of sense to the carnal mind. He says (I'm paraphrasing) that God is not torturing anyone and does not send anyone to hell. Rather, hell is reserved for those who forever want their own way and not God's way. The people in hell say to God "MY will be done, not THY will be done" and God says "Okay, have it your way." And guess what? Being in hell does not change their minds! They are saying "MY will be done" for all eternity, thus God is just in keeping them there. Lewis rationalizes this and makes it seem not so bad. By not mentioning the fire and placing all the blame on the carnal man, human reasoning says "Yeah that makes sense!" This is the sweet seduction of the great whore of Babylon. But the bottom line is he despises the word of God, thinks God is a liar and Jesus is a failure.
All major Christian denominations agree on that point: God is a liar and Jesus is a failure. None would say it in those words, of course, but it is a great blasphemy nonetheless.
-
largely, if you would feel so confident about your opinion on the matter, then, I don't think you would have started this thread.
And you have got a lot of good answers... so far. I believe.
-
It is my experience that very few people who go to church go because of the preaching of the word and fewer the number who really understand it. Most people enjoy the social activities, which could be where your family is. Social interaction can definately be beneficial. We can't all be heretical hairy faced hermits living in caves. Why does that describe me? Hmmmm....
I do miss that part about church. But my personal scriptural convictions have drawn me away, but not everyone is like me.
Maybe have bible studies at home with your family. Sow the seed. It is God who brings the harvest. 8)
-
I suppose that to hear 'christians' blaspheme your heavenly Father and His Name does not make you uncomfortable. To hear that God will condemn the majority of humankind to endless and indescribable torment and suffering should make you cringe and wiggle in your seat. They are assaulting the character of God and, in response, you shout a 'Praise the Lord' ? Hmmm!
Truth is Truth and needs no one to defend it. It defends itself. No need to feel offended when someone blasphemes my heavenly father because my heavenly father can defend Himself.
If I felt threatened, offended, or angry towards them then that tells me that I am not so sure about my convictions.
I once had a guy tell me that God is an alien and that when the Hebrews were wandering the desert for 40 years that they were being led by a flying saucer beaming down a pillar of fire, etc. etc. I did not feel offended or threatened by this guys beliefs because, to me, it was all nonsense and totally absurd... I feel the same way about the church doctrine. Because I believe its totally absurd, I can hear it and not feel threatened or offended.
If you get angry when defending your beliefs, or if you feel like you have to defend your beliefs at all.. then you're not very secure in your beliefs.. In my opinion.
-
largely, if you would feel so confident about your opinion on the matter, then, I don't think you would have started this thread.
And you have got a lot of good answers... so far. I believe.
You'll get no argument from me here Moises.. If I believed %100 that my opinions were facts instead of opinions then I would not bring them up for discussion. I'm very happy with all the different opinions and perspectives that have been shared. My perspective is only 1 out of 7 billion people in the world. I'd be foolish to think that my perspective alone is the 'right' one. I'm here to learn and to gain more perspective..
-
It is my experience that very few people who go to church go because of the preaching of the word and fewer the number who really understand it. Most people enjoy the social activities, which could be where your family is. Social interaction can definately be beneficial. We can't all be heretical hairy faced hermits living in caves. Why does that describe me? Hmmmm....
I do miss that part about church. But my personal scriptural convictions have drawn me away, but not everyone is like me.
Maybe have bible studies at home with your family. Sow the seed. It is God who brings the harvest. 8)
You're exactly right on this... its not that they want to get spiritually fed, its the social aspect. My wife knows that I think its a total pagan religion that contradicts clear scripture. She believes and trusts me but she likes having friends for her and the kids.. our church friends never talk about theology or anything and like you said, I don't think they go there for that either, or even understand it..
-
I suppose that to hear 'christians' blaspheme your heavenly Father and His Name does not make you uncomfortable. To hear that God will condemn the majority of humankind to endless and indescribable torment and suffering should make you cringe and wiggle in your seat. They are assaulting the character of God and, in response, you shout a 'Praise the Lord' ? Hmmm!
Truth is Truth and needs no one to defend it. It defends itself. No need to feel offended when someone blasphemes my heavenly father because my heavenly father can defend Himself.
If I felt threatened, offended, or angry towards them then that tells me that I am not so sure about my convictions.
I once had a guy tell me that God is an alien and that when the Hebrews were wandering the desert for 40 years that they were being led by a flying saucer beaming down a pillar of fire, etc. etc. I did not feel offended or threatened by this guys beliefs because, to me, it was all nonsense and totally absurd... I feel the same way about the church doctrine. Because I believe its totally absurd, I can hear it and not feel threatened or offended.
If you get angry when defending your beliefs, or if you feel like you have to defend your beliefs at all.. then you're not very secure in your beliefs.. In my opinion.
Given enough time, I could argue the phrase "Truth is Truth and needs no one to defend it. It defends itself." is a vacuous one.
It is your existential experience that feeling offended when the character of your Heavenly Father is assaulted means that you are not secure in your convictions. Not mine. Otherwise, I could be persuaded to embrace the heretical teaching of hell again. At the time that I felt this way, I was still trying to convince myself that I could continue attending church to participate in group worship. In my case, the social aspect was secondary. To you the social aspect might be primary.
During some of my visits, the pastor would coincidentally preach on hell. He would even talk to me after the service about continuing to congregate, about stopping to question God and the bible, etc., etc. I, for one, could not continue doing this.
Mind you, I didn't try to 'defend the truth'. I didn't argue with the pastor or anybody in the church. I had already learned it was a fruitless endeavor.
Presently, I could attend any church service. It wouldn't bother me like it did in the past. But it wouldn't bless me spiritually either. This is MY experience. If YOU feel blessed attending, participating, taking part and communing in a local congregation, I can understand why you would continue to go. May God bless you on your journey.
-
It is my experience that very few people who go to church go because of the preaching of the word and fewer the number who really understand it. Most people enjoy the social activities, which could be where your family is. Social interaction can definately be beneficial. We can't all be heretical hairy faced hermits living in caves. Why does that describe me? Hmmmm....
I do miss that part about church. But my personal scriptural convictions have drawn me away, but not everyone is like me.
Maybe have bible studies at home with your family. Sow the seed. It is God who brings the harvest. 8)
Yep, it's a social club.
-
What is it about the great false church that makes it the false church.. Is it the hell doctrine and free will doctrine? The church that I grew up in was never big on the fire and brimstone preaching.. Actually I went to a bible study there once where the guy was teaching that hell wasn't real..
Also, why does God answer their prayers if they are praying to a false god?
They're not praying to a false god though. Remember, Jesus didn't give doctrinal pop quizzes to people before he healed them - he just healed them. It's interesting that only some people sought him out again to thank him.
-
What is it about the great false church that makes it the false church.. Is it the hell doctrine and free will doctrine? The church that I grew up in was never big on the fire and brimstone preaching.. Actually I went to a bible study there once where the guy was teaching that hell wasn't real..
Also, why does God answer their prayers if they are praying to a false god?
Largeli - another thing. The people who stay in the churches are not, generally, the "wicked', they are just fooled - foolish. They are the foolish virgins that Jesus spoke of; praying to and professing God, but not following Him (John 10:27). They sill get saved, but not the first go 'round; the wedding feast is for the wise, the elect. It's not possible to fool the elect, because they're following God and have been given truth. So the earnest churchgoers are not "the wicked", just fooled as long as they remain in the church. Remember that Jesus was kind and patient to his disciples who were also fooled, yet angry with those that profiteered off of fooling His sheep.
I for once am convinced that the identity of the five foolish virgins = churchgoers with terrible manmade doctrines about the impotence of God. Why? because there are TEN virgins, not eight or six. The ten symbolizes the scattered ten tribes that are all over the world, being drawn to God. Only some of those called will become wise, but all of the ten are spiritual Israel. If churchgoers were really wicked, they would not be described as "virgins" - they are virgins because they DO have the right God and generally, in my opinion, their heart is mostly in the right place, which is why in the parable our longsuffering God will let them join "the party" next time - by way of the elect (the wise virgins) who tell them "go instead to them that buy and sell!" - that is, go back to church. Recall that the bible says that the elect will be responsible for bringing the correct gospel to the nations.
The reason why the "groom" in the wise and foolish virgin parable doesn't know the five virgins is because they held blasphemous doctrines about the character of God, not because God sends us down the "bad egg" chute if we lack perfect academic understanding of scripture. But, God still can choose to answer the prayers of anyone, perhaps as a way to drawn them to Him, or just because He's generous. Long before I knew anything about repenting or living right, God answered many of my prayers.
Those fooled (foolish) have a form of Godliness by deny the power thereof (2 Tim 3:5). They have the correct God, but deny His omnipotence. They can benefit from His answered prayers and blessings, but they don't get to know Him in this life.
-
I really have a problem calling the Roman Catholic Church, and her many protestant daughters CHURCH.
Some scriptures that came to mind while reading this thread;
Mark 9:38-40 And John answered him saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followed not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us in on our part.
1st Corinthians 12:3
Werefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Each of us today has to at some point in time hear and act on the words commanded in Revelations 18:4-And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
A Church denomination has a portion of Truth like currency has various denominations. 1$, 5$, 10$, 20$, and so on.
Nobody comes out until God opens their eyes, or ears as in Rev. 18:4. "My People" hear the loud voice from higher up. (heaven)
Joel
-
Joel, if you're referring to my post - I don't consider the RCC, EOC and the daughter churches "the church".
-
John 2:16-17 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
16 He told those who were selling the doves, “Take these things out of here! Stop making my FATHER'S HOUSE a MARKETPLACE!” 17 His disciples remembered that it was written, “ZEAL for your HOUSE will CONSUME ME.”
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Or do you not know that your body is a temple [my Father's house] of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you were bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body [temple/Father's house].
-
Riddles I agree that they are fooled and deceived. I think maybe that's why I don't feel threatened or offended by them.. I know they blaspheme God with their doctrine but it's easy to not be offended by their doctrine once one understands that they're not aware of what they're doing. I think some opinions around here are that the church actually knows that they're blaspheming and that they're purposely and knowingly leading the flock astray.. I don't see it that way.
On another note.. Does anyone think that a church's position on war and violence has anything to do with it being the great false church? We are blessed to have BT but throughout the centuries there wasn't a BT for believers. But they're has always been the doctrine of non violence plain as day in the sermon on the mount. Just War doctrine made it possible for churches/christians to support the military and war. It made a loophole to obeying Christ's commands on non violence. Hence the 'why do you call me Lord but don't do what I say?'
-
Heres an excerpt from one of Rays audios..
I knew a lovely man when I was in Worldwide. He came down and gave some Bible studies for us and I really did love the man. His name was Ray too. But he made the comment once… now he understood about universal reconciliation, he just did not get the spirit. He said, ‘we can be thankful we live in a nation and in a time where we are not persecuted.’ And he said, ‘I’ve never been persecuted.’ Guess what? He was not living completely Godly in Christ Jesus, that’s why.
When you always do what’s right, you will be persecuted and probably by some of your closes friends. Maybe your wife or husband, your mother or father, your children or neighbors or working associates. Not the least of which is your own brethren in the church will persecute you, if you always do everything that is right.
They say - Oh we’re going to make little ribbons and hang them on the trees, to say bless our soldiers, may they kill many Arabs today.
You say - well I don’t want to do that.
Them - what?
You - I don’t think it’s right that we do that.
Them - well what’s with you? You’re not patriotic? You don’t believe in killing?
You - no.
If you don’t think you will be persecuted, I’ll tell you that you will be persecuted.
Throughout history people have "come out of her" because they recognized the hypocrisy of the church's support of a state institution and war... These people may never have known about hell or free will being blasphemous but they did indeed come out of the church's because they could see that the church taught opposite what Christ taught when it came to violence.
-
About the churches:
Php 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
-
Thank you Dennis,
Understanding comes only with long experience and testing and the gift of a mature mind based upon practice and appreciation of the fact that God works with all manner of people and circumstances His work to perform.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
-
Is Jer 50:6 talking about the "Church?"
Jer 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.
-
Personally I would rather prefer social interaction and face to face interaction with non-religious fine individuals
than with totally deceived church rats.
(because of many reasons)...
-
Largeli - I wish I'd copy-pasted what a Messianic Jew once said to me when he walked me through the identity of "the wicked" because it made sense, brought peace and I haven't found if L. Ray wrote about it.
The default "my country, right or wrong" pro-war stance speaks to spiritual cowardice (it's only OK in U.S. to be anti war if you have no political, media or religious voice) on the part of pastors and congregants. Because the chief concern of these churches made with hands, it appears, is to perpetuate themselves, the preachers HAVE to tickle ears and not alienate their public - scriptures be damned. These churches get government tax exemptions that they just CAN'T turn down, so basically every church is in the government's pocket, spiritually (Rev. 17:2). These pastors need money from churchgoers like TV studios need ratings. The real teachings of Jesus weren't popular in His time on earth, and they aren't very popular now. Goliath is this world's sociopolitical structure.
I was listening to a podcast from a guy who happens to be atheist. He pointed out that there are probably far more people in the world who adopt sociopathic traits than are textbook sociopaths. He said that a guy who sells a used recreational vehicle off of his lot for $16,000 (though it's worth $4,000) to an elderly couple, goes home and thinks of himself as a great salesman, not as a schmuck. I think this relates to your comment. If we don't judge ourselves, then we do whatever we want and then invent excuses in order to live with ourselves. So it is with wolves in the visible church.
But, largeli, I think that there were individuals and groups of people in the last almost 2,000 years that put 2 and 2 together - but outside of scripture the story and beliefs of those persecuted aren't widely understood. So L. Ray isn't the first to notice and write about the scriptural truths that bring us here.
Theophilus - Back when I was still checking out local churches, I noticed that some of them sold things in the lobby area (not in the pews, that would be gauche!). One church has an espresso and pastry cart. On your first visit to their church service, you got a free coffee of your choice. This church of course taught all sorts of false doctrines and de-emphasized scripture reading. The people were super nice, but it felt like a love bombing tactic to make me feel understood and at home. At least Esau was actually starving (Gen 25). Imagine giving up your birthright for a mocha latte. :-[
-
Theophilus - Back when I was still checking out local churches, I noticed that some of them sold things in the lobby area. One church has an espresso and pastry cart. On your first visit to their church service, you got a free coffee of your choice. This church of course taught all sorts of false doctrines and de-emphasized scripture reading. At least Esau was starving (Gen 25). Imagine giving up your birthright for a mocha latte. :-[
A mocha latte is much less than a stew! No Winchell donuts???
But seriously, we are to be inmensly grateful for having been revealed the truth about these things. Thank the Lord God that it pleased Him to do it.
-
It's obvious that the physical Church of the old covenant is no longer in existence, having been destroyed around 70 A.D.
And that the Church that Jesus Christ is building has never had the gates of hell to prevail against it.
There are however many similarities when comparing the two, such as the evil, and corruption, and false idols that permeate both.
God has never left himself without a witness that has stayed true to him throughout the many hundreds of years, and only God knows for sure who they are.
Joel
-
Hi All:
In the transcript from Ray's "How we got the Bible". I question Ray's acount of the day Stephen was stoned. Below is an excerpt from that transcript.
"Well on that very day they stoned Stephen (Acts 7)."
I have read most of Ray's work and I do believe he was the most knowledgeable writer that I have ever known. But I do believe Ray may have miss spoke here. I do believe Stephen's stoning came at a much later date.
Let me know what you think.
Frank
-
Hi All:
In the transcript from Ray's "How we got the Bible". I question Ray's acount of the day Stephen was stoned. Below is an excerpt from that transcript.
"Well on that very day they stoned Stephen (Acts 7)."
I have read most of Ray's work and I do believe he was the most knowledgeable writer that I have ever known. But I do believe Ray may have miss spoke here. I do believe Stephen's stoning came at a much later date.
Let me know what you think.
Frank
Ray never said his writings were perfect. But how would this affect anything? How would this change your beliefs?
-
If you suspect you are chosen in this life then this describes you:
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
If anything church people are better than we are until we are converted and endured more than a few trials.
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
-
Hi Frank,
Well I can't say what Ray was implying when he said "that very day," he had mentioned Pentecost though. But this was at a conference where he was just speaking freely, if it had been a written article he probably would have been more precise. But actually I don't think that Stephen martyr was very long after Pentecost. Here is a timeline on those events surrounding it.
Crucifixion - Resurrection - and Ascension of Jesus Christ, 30-31CE
Pentecost, falls on the tenth day after Ascension, 30-31CE
Stephen was stoned to death by an infuriated mob, approved by Saul of Tarsus in Jerusalem in 30/32CE
Conversion of Saul to Paul the Apostle, it is normally dated by researchers from 32 C.E. (most likely) and all the way to 36 C.E.
As you can see the date of Stephen's death is not stated in Scripture, but it can be deduced from the book of Acts that it was probably soon after Pentecost. Because it was sometime 'before' Paul conversion. Stephen was appointed as one of the deacons, which must have taken place fairly soon after Pentecost, since there are thousands of followers of Jesus after the two sermons Acts 2 and 3. There was probably only a couple of years from Pentecost till Paul's conversion and sometime during that period was when Stephen was killed.
Anyway Ray was speaking of the prophecy that's in Joel 2 about the sun would be darkened and the moon turned to blood... and it certainly was very soon after Christ started His church at Pentecost that the Apostasy set in, when Stephen was martyred in a brutal/bloody way.
Just wanted to give you my take on this, hope it made sense :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
God blinded some and the Devil blinds too......
John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
2Co 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
-
Santgem, I was just reading where L. Ray says that 2 Cor. 4:3 refers to God not Satan.
-
Santgem, I was just reading where L. Ray says that 2 Cor. 4:3 refers to God not Satan.
Hi Riddles,
Greetings!
2007 Nashville Conference:
Somebody ask me if "the god of this world" could possibly be referring to God rather than Satan. I considered it a long time ago, because Satan deceives and God blinds. God blinded them, Satan deceived.
2Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine upon them.
Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God. NLT
Maybe it will be a big help if you could explain it further!
-
Right Santgem. I think everyone at this forum has read that. L. Ray wrote that that passage is talking about God; that it's God who has the power to blind us or not.
-
2007 Nashville Conference:
Somebody ask me if "the god of this world" could possibly be referring to God rather than Satan. I considered it a long time ago, because Satan deceives and God blinds. God blinded them, Satan deceived.
2Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine upon them.
Riddles, in that quote from the conference Ray said he "considered it," not that he changed his mind and then saw that Scripture another way. This is what he had taught on this previously, in an excerpt from the Lake of Fire article no. 9 'The Lucifer Hoax and the Mission of Satan.'
http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html ----------------------------------------------------
Let’s notice a few things overlooked by most Sunday school teachers (and most of the world’s greatest theologians as well). Ready? Are you sure? Okay, here goes: ALL THE NATIONS OF THE ENTIRE WORLD BELONG TO SATAN THE DEVIL!!! Heaven and Earth are God’s possessions, however, God has delegated the nations to Satan. Satan could not offer all these kingdoms of the world to Jesus if he did not possess them to offer them in the first place. They are Satan’s ignorant kingdoms:
"In whom the god [SATAN] of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, Who is the Image of God, should shine unto them" (II Cor. 4:4).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
2007 Nashville Conference:
Somebody ask me if "the god of this world" could possibly be referring to God rather than Satan. I considered it a long time ago, because Satan deceives and God blinds. God blinded them, Satan deceived.
2Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine upon them.
I remember when Ray made that comment and it certainly gave me pause for thought. Although every bible translation I could fine does use a lower case "g" for god, I still wonder about the true meaning.
I have found scriptures that refer to satan as a "ruler of this world" (John 12:31) and as a "prince" of this age" (Eph 2:2), but I could not find another scripture referring to satan as a "god."
I have to admit, it is a repulsive thought to feel confused about whether a scripture is talking about Almighty God or satan. Yikes! :o
René
-
I can't yet find the quote from L. Ray that I refer to. I will post it when I do.
-
Back to the OP:
Mar 4:14 The sower sows the word:
Mar 4:15 and these are they by the wayside where the word is sown, and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.
Mar 4:16 And these are they in like manner who are sown upon the rocky places, who when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy,
Mar 4:17 and they have no root in themselves, but are for a time: then, tribulation arising, or persecution on account of the word, immediately they are offended.
Mar 4:18 And others are they who are sown among the thorns: these are they who have heard the word,
Mar 4:19 and the cares of life, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things, entering in, choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
Where are those people? Some of them quit going to church and just became your basic booger-heads. You know some, and so do I. Most of the rest are still there, however. And worse, many are in the pulpits.
He said it...so shall it be.
-
This question has probably been asked before (I'm still a babe) but I would like to see your comments. If one has stopped going to church (or has come out of the church), how does this person's spouse or children hear Christ being preached if they do not attend "the church"? Or one who never has attended church and does not listen to religious TV etc.? How does God draw them? or are they to be spiritually blinded until they physically die?
Diane
-
Hi friendofJC,
Actually the church of Christendom is not God's church.
http://bible-truths.com/email15.htm --------------------
Jesus Christ said, "I will BUILD My church..." (Matt. 16:18). James understood that there was a church to be built among the Gentiles, "After this I will return and will BUILD again the tabernacle of David..." (Acts 15:15-16). Paul instructs us further in this building process of the church,
"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another builds thereon. But let every man TAKE HEED HOW HE BUILDS thereupon" (I Cor. 3:10).
This most stern warning is given to us because Paul is not speaking of properly laying or building with bricks and mortar, but with the LIVES of precious people, "...YE ARE God's building" (Verse 9)!
"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this TEMPLE, and in three days I will raise it up. [how much MONEY do you suppose that would take, Pastor?] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and will you rear it up in three days? But He spake of the TEMPLE OF HIS BODY" (John 2:19-21).
"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a BUILDING of God, an house NOT MADE WITH HANDS [how much money you reckon a fine building like this would cost, Pastor?]..." (II Cor. 5:1).
"Know you not that YOU ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD, and that the Spirit of God dwells IN YOU?" (I Cor. 3:16).
That's because,
"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, DWELLS NOT IN TEMPLES MADE WITH HANDS" (Acts 17:24).
No, God does not "dwell" in temples and buildings made with hands, but SATAN "DWELLS" in carnal churches made with hands (Rev. 2:13)!
The reason the church today is bankrupt is because they have FAR TOO MUCH MONEY and FAR TOO LITTLE SPIRIT!
----------------------------------------------------------
HoneyLamb, God can draw people to Him in many ways, there are all kinds of causes, most unseen and we are totally unaware of. Usually it is initially through a church that they hear the basic gospel and learn the Bible stories. I think there are some people that do not attend a church and read the Bible on their on or just with family. But a lot of people will not even be drawn to God in this age at all.
The church is a carnal gathering of people seeking religious socialization. Those in the church hardly hear the truth, they are blind leaders of the blind.
Mat 15:14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."
I do not think it is necessary to make sure your family gets churched. If you have learned the truth about the church it's hard to understand that you would desire them to be a part of that. A person that has their eyes opened would be a far better teacher for their family than any church would be. But if a family member wants to go with other family members or friends I wouldn't stop them either.
Now of course this is my personal stance and others can have their own opinion.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Dear friend Diane,
God has provided a better teacher for your spouse and children in the person of you, one who's mind has been opened.
One who has truly been called, even though a babe in Christ in their own mind, is better able to present the truth in a loving sincere manner than almost any seminary graduate with all their biases, myths and fairy tales.
You have the scripture and can prepare very simple bible lessons if the family is willing. Please be sure that they are willing, don't force.... Plus you have the spirit of Christ, the counselor, the Paraclete at your side to give you the thoughts that will matter.
Also please do not be concerned about having to "get them convicted" in a hurry or before it is too late. With a loving God it is never too late and even so God can open their mind instantly, when God is ready to do it and not before.
Please be patient with yourself and your family and friends and simply do your best with God's spirit in your heart to be a better living example. Your family will see the improvement and will learn to trust your counsel in due time.
I have four adult children who love their Mom and Me and show it regularly. They also love one another and yet they all are different in their core beliefs. None of them are church members.
Regards, Indiana Bob
This question has probably been asked before (I'm still a babe) but I would like to see your comments. If one has stopped going to church (or has come out of the church), how does this person's spouse or children hear Christ being preached if they do not attend "the church"? Or one who never has attended church and does not listen to religious TV etc.? How does God draw them? or are they to be spiritually blinded until they physically die?
Diane
-
Kat said
I do not think it is necessary to make sure your family gets churched. If you have learned the truth about the church it's hard to understand that you would desire them to be a part of that. A person that has their eyes opened would be a far better teacher for their family than any church would be. But if a family member wants to go with other family members or friends I wouldn't stop them either.
I completely agree.
Indianabob said
God has provided a better teacher for your spouse and children in the person of you, one who's mind has been opened.
One who has truly been called, even though a babe in Christ in their own mind, is better able to present the truth in a loving sincere manner than almost any seminary graduate with all their biases, myths and fairy tales.
So well said.
As for me, Diane - I had a bible with Jesus' words in red since I can remember, but I only got curious enough to read the rest of it when a friend who I really respect just out of nowhere one day said to me "I'm reading the bible to my [infant] daughter." She said no more about it. This was enough for met to get curious about the bible, realizing that I hadn't the faintest idea what it said. Even little children can feel it when someone is trying to "sell" an idea to them, Diane, and people naturally resist. But that is why the gospel is good news - accepting and knowing that God reconciles all people to Himself IS the good news which changes YOU so that you (and we) don't have to strive to change other people.
Much of the fervor to "win souls" I think, stems from an anxiety about eternal punishment which does not exist.
I'm not sure how you ought to do things, Diane, but I look back at my friend's casual mentioning of reading the bible as planting a seed in me. She didn't make a show of being at peace - she just was. She gave me nothing to reject or resist, so of course I thought reading the bible was my own idea!
-
Friend Riddles,
Very well put. Reminds me of some of my history.
Thanks, Indiana Bob
-
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a ..
-
How does God draw them? or are they to be spiritually blinded until they physically die?
Hi Diane,
If it is God's plan that someone is going to be given "spiritual sight" in this age, He does it by changing their hearts. It is God Who will put the desire in their hearts to know the truth, and then they will seek Him, and He will open their eyes. If a family member is going to be given "spiritual sight", God may use you as an instrument in this process or He may use another source.
No need to worry whether your family goes to church or not. Besides, the vast majority of people who are "in the church" in this age, will remain spiritually blind. If God is choosing one of your family members to be spiritually enlightened, it will not fail, no matter what you do. 8)
René
-
Question.. Do you guys listen to christian music? Klove?
-
Question.. Do you guys listen to christian music? Klove?
Never. Ever.
I never do anything Christian. I do not participate in our family prayers at Thanksgiving or other Holidays. I stay away from all things religious.
I am a stranger in a strange land. A sojourner on the earth. A wanderer in the spiritual wilderness. And I do not want it any other way.
The reason? I am not a Christian. Neither is Jesus.
-
John are you being sarcastic or serious?
-
John are you being sarcastic or serious?
If you are using sarcastic or serious as adjectives, I do not believe they are comparative.
Grammar aside, my post was dead on serious.
I do not engage in any type of public prayer per Jesus' commands. I do not do any type of religious thing in public, nor do I fellowship with religious people.
Away with all that nonsense. I walk with Jesus. Neither of us are Christians, thus we do not do Christian things.
I despise and reject the great false church in all its forms and manifestations. And the world systems upon which she rides.
-
When you said you don't participate in family prayers at thanksgiving, does that mean you stay in the other room till their done? Or do you join hands but keep your eyes open? How does your family react?
I assume you also wouldn't stand at a ball game during the national anthem?
-
When you said you don't participate in family prayers at thanksgiving, does that mean you stay in the other room till their done? Or do you join hands but keep your eyes open? How does your family react?
I assume you also wouldn't stand at a ball game during the national anthem?
;D ;D ;D Duh! I don't go into another room. My brothers-in-law would then get the best of the food, which it is my birthright, being the senior family member since my father is dead. Also, I'm not ashamed of following scripture.
I have no problem with standing. I don't really want to make a scene or bring attention to myself. But, I don't hold hands (with a brother-in-law, yuck), bow my head, or participate in the prayer.
My family knows my views. I don't speak about Scriptures or God's ways, unless someone asks me a direct question, then they get a direct answer. They never try to change me since they know my strong will and personality.
Thanksgiving Day is my favorite holiday of the year. I find it very family oriented, which I love.
-
Lol.. I hear you John.
-
Ray said that he was an ambassador for Christ and an ambassador is not allowed to vote in a host nation. He wrote this in 2 different emails that I've read so far.
He also wrote, as I quoted on page 2 of this thread, that it's not right to support the troops, or to be patriotic.
I can count on one hand the number of times that I've even heard the word 'hell' in the church that I went to for 25 years. I'm not convinced that half the people there really believe it to be honest. BUT.. Loyalty to your leaders is big. Voting is your duty as a good responsible christian. So to me, the great false church is not only comprised of hell and free will doctrine but loyalty to the governments of man. Every church structure with its head pastor or denominational president or whatever.. They're all modeled after mans government just like a pyramid. All the power and authority condensed down to a select few or one and all the subjects underneath holding it up with their tithe dollars. Every church is married to the government but also claim to be married to Christ.. As if she can have two masters.
These are just my observations, please critique.
-
Friend Largeli,
Military service and home defense are often very touchy subjects for discussion within a Christian forum. We aren't exactly Christians the way most people would define the term from their natural perspective of having learned the dogma or creed of a particular denomination.
Please allow me to partially separate home defense or self defense from either voluntary or conscripted military service.
Start with a basic precept of home defense or defense of ones own family in ones owned or rented house. Suppose that a thief breaks into your home and attacks your wife or child. Would you use whatever force necessary to protect that family member? I think that most parents would automatically do their best to stop the attack no matter how much force it took and with no serious consideration of what injury the attacker might suffer. If anyone breaks into my home and attacks my wife the chances are that one of us is going to suffer great bodily harm and I do not plan for it to be me or my wife. I think that God understands that about me and I do not plan to change myself in that regard. Perhaps God will protect me from having to ever make that decision, I hope so.
On the other hand, if I come home and find a man running from my home and upon entering find my wife injured, bleeding, clothes torn etc. what will I do?
First of course I will see to her needs and call for help. Then I will probably think to call the police to come and protect us from further harm from this same individual. While waiting I may secure a weapon of some sort and prepare to defend ourselves until the police arrive.
All of those choices are natural, normal actions and not prohibited in scripture as far as I can determine.
However, if I become extremely angry and begin to think to seek revenge for the attack upon my family member, that is when I need to fall to my knees and pray for divine guidance, BECAUSE the scripture tells us that vengeance belongs to God alone; God will repay.
Now as I pray for guidance where is my trust? Is my trust in God or in my own strength and my own (sovereign ?) choices as to how to respond?
This is an area where a true believer has to plan for the future and seek truth from scripture and through meditation and prayer. We need to count the cost of our future actions and develop an attitude of careful obedience to what God has shown us is the correct path to follow.
Of course we all may fail to carry out our prayerful plan when the fight or flight adrenalin is pumping through our veins. We may act in anger and have a lot to repent of before God after the incident is over and done, but we cannot in good conscience plan for retribution against another of God's children. Living that way will only eat away at our own spirit.
Now then, how differently should we handle military service?
Should any "true" follower of the Lord Jesus volunteer to serve in their own nation's organized army as a trained killer of the government designated enemies of that nation.
Where does one draw the line? Is there a place for a "bright" line of difference between defense of ones home and family and the planned and premeditated killing of another human being that the President or military authority orders the soldier to kill, by whatever means?
What is a citizens obligation in this situation? What is the obligation of a visitor to the Nation, a citizen of another Nation such as the Kingdom of God, a person who happens to be a law abiding ambassador of what may be seen as a superior sovereign government who's seat is in the heaven of God.
There is a lot to consider in this situation and God knows how difficult our choices are, but in the final analysis God must show us what we must do and the answer may be different for each person.
Pray and seek God's mind and be content to wait until the answer for you becomes evident in your own heart.
Warm regards, Indiana Bob
-
Rev 18:4.