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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: ryman on October 22, 2014, 01:28:12 PM
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I thought I came across ray not supporting those who fight the enemy.
What's your guy's take in this verse?
He doesn't tell them to stop fighting and love their enemy does he?
Luke 3:14 ESV
Soldiers also asked him, "And we, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages."
Young's literal
LK 3:14 And questioning him also were those warring, saying, `And we, what shall we do?' and he said unto them, `Do violence to no one, nor accuse falsely, and be content with your wages.'
Violence? Is that not contradicting their job?
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No one with the Spirit of God within them can kill or be a soldier, whose job it is to kill at the behest of others.
Jesus said those who take the sword will die by the sword.
Only God can kill righteously because only He has the power to give life.
P.S. For those without understanding, please do not quote the Scripture about Cornelius, who was a soldier and among the first of the gentiles to be baptized with the Spirit. The Scriptures do not tell us that he remained a centurion.
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Hi Ryman,
Can you please share the quote in question from ray where you feel their is contention? It would help greatly in addressing your question.
I searched real quickly the verse you feel is confusing. Two things to note quickly,
1. This is John the baptist speaking and the teaching of "love your enemies" came by Christ. John's understanding of God was still by way of the "veil." He still was living under the letter of the law that kills.
2. Only by the Holy Spirit come after Christ ascended back to heaven did the law of Spirit and life take affect because only by faith(that gift) and the Spirit of God in us can we abide in Christ.
As JFK stated, no one with the spirit of Christ will be a soldier whose job is to kill.
Luk 3:14 Now soldiers also inquired of him, saying, "What should we also be doing? And he said to them, "You should be intimidating no one, neither be blackmailing, and be sufficed with your rations." (CLV)
Notice here in this translation, there is nothing about not killing. Remember that the old testament commandment was "though shalt not MURDER." Killing and murdering are two different things.
That being said, Christ showed us that the law of God was and is spiritual and so goes beyond this by saying "Agape your enemies," "turn the other cheek," "leave room for the vengeance of God," (Paul) etc....
Romans 12:19 "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."
Hope this helps some,
Alex
P.S. I feel I should add here that either way there is no contradiction between what John the baptist told these soldiers and what Christ taught.
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I agree. It would go against his character and everything he taught.
Its kind of funny though, how most churches do support the soilders to kill for freedom, they say its for freedom to worship a God that now says love your enemy. Freedom to worship a God that will himself torture billions. Its amazing.
You answered while I was writing. Thanks for that.
I've been reading so much I can't tell you at the moment on ray. I thought I came across it somewhere.
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There are a lot of Christians in the military but not a lot of the chosen I would imagine. I was in the military for years and ready to kill for my country. And of course the chaplains job is to assuage the consciences of the soldier's because after all aren't we fighting for good against the 'terrorists' or in my day the 'Godless Communists'. Yep....lets kill for Christ. That boat doesn't float.
I thought at one time in my foolish youth that you can serve God and country. Then I grew up. It's simply not possible. It's one or the other. If I'm armed and someone attempts to murder me, my wife, kids, ect then I'll defend them. But I will no longer wear a uniform and kill for those that are sitting safe and secure in their cozy palaces of power and have no regards for human life.
And believe me I know all the arguments pro/con and I don't attempt to argue with people anymore. God has to do a work in the heart and show us the truth of these things.
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Here is an email on this.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1719.0.html ------
I printed EVERYTHING on your site and arranged it into books, my eyes were OPENED, my wallet EMPTIED from buying ink cartridges. LOL.. I have one question that is really bothering me. In two instances you made semi-negative remarks about serving in the military or CHURCHES that are pushing military service. Also I seem to remember some surprising remarks that our nations founding principles were not Christian in nature. I am going by memory, so forgive me if my impressions are off base. What about the scriptures that "The state does not wield the sword in vain", and that Roman soldier converts were told to be happy with their pay and not extort, but NOT told to leave their position, etc... Could you clarify your position? Certainly our nation is NOT perfect, but we have done much to "restrain evil in the world". Historically I don't think any nation with the power we have has ever used it so sparingly. I am a militar y retiree and served my country honorably and faithfully. Probably my patriotism and conservative political idealism are idols of the heart. I know my zest for politics is fading rapidly. Shouldn't we do all we can to restrain evil, as a policeman, soldier, politician,etc?
Please answer as I REALLY WANT THE TRUTH and am not trying pick an argument.
Dear Austin:
Yes, God has ordained "the powers that be," and there is no power or authority except by God. Does this somehow "prove" that these powers are "Christ like?" I think not. One CANNOT turn the other cheek while shooting your enemy in the stomach--that is what we would call a contradiction of doctrine or philosophy.
God doesn't hate soldiers, but neither has He called and chosen them to be His very Elect either, while serving in the capacity of professionally trained killers.. Suppose a professional soldier (who literally kills people for a living) becomes a Believer in Christ Jesus. We know that to follow Jesus we must first repent. Are you suggesting that "killing people" would NOT be one of the things he would repent of? That he would have to repent of telling lies, lusting after pretty girls, stealing cookies from the cookie jar, but that he would NOT HAVE TO REPENT OF KILLING PEOPLE to protect his nation? Think about it. There was a time when True Believers looked to God to protect them from their enemies, not to the number of tanks and bombers they possessed.
God be with you,
Ray
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Here is an email on this.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1719.0.html ------
I printed EVERYTHING on your site and arranged it into books, my eyes were OPENED, my wallet EMPTIED from buying ink cartridges. LOL.. I have one question that is really bothering me. In two instances you made semi-negative remarks about serving in the military or CHURCHES that are pushing military service. Also I seem to remember some surprising remarks that our nations founding principles were not Christian in nature. I am going by memory, so forgive me if my impressions are off base. What about the scriptures that "The state does not wield the sword in vain", and that Roman soldier converts were told to be happy with their pay and not extort, but NOT told to leave their position, etc... Could you clarify your position? Certainly our nation is NOT perfect, but we have done much to "restrain evil in the world". Historically I don't think any nation with the power we have has ever used it so sparingly. I am a militar y retiree and served my country honorably and faithfully. Probably my patriotism and conservative political idealism are idols of the heart. I know my zest for politics is fading rapidly. Shouldn't we do all we can to restrain evil, as a policeman, soldier, politician,etc?
Please answer as I REALLY WANT THE TRUTH and am not trying pick an argument.
Dear Austin:
Yes, God has ordained "the powers that be," and there is no power or authority except by God. Does this somehow "prove" that these powers are "Christ like?" I think not. One CANNOT turn the other cheek while shooting your enemy in the stomach--that is what we would call a contradiction of doctrine or philosophy.
God doesn't hate soldiers, but neither has He called and chosen them to be His very Elect either, while serving in the capacity of professionally trained killers.. Suppose a professional soldier (who literally kills people for a living) becomes a Believer in Christ Jesus. We know that to follow Jesus we must first repent. Are you suggesting that "killing people" would NOT be one of the things he would repent of? That he would have to repent of telling lies, lusting after pretty girls, stealing cookies from the cookie jar, but that he would NOT HAVE TO REPENT OF KILLING PEOPLE to protect his nation? Think about it. There was a time when True Believers looked to God to protect them from their enemies, not to the number of tanks and bombers they possessed.
God be with you,
Ray
Excellent find Kat!
Indeed, God is our strength!
Some of my favorite verses regarding our faith and hope in God:
Isaiah 33:22 "For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, the Lord is our king; he will save us."
Psalm 46:1 To the choirmaster. Of the Sons of Korah. According to Alamoth. A Song. God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
Psalm 31:1-3 In thee, O Lord, do I put my trust; let me never be ashamed: deliver me in thy righteousness. Bow down thine ear to me; deliver me speedily: be thou my strong rock, for an house of defence to save me. For thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for thy name's sake lead me, and guide me.
Psalm 7:10 My defence is of God, which saveth the upright in heart.
Psalm 34:19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the Lord delivereth him out of them all.
Psalm 34:7 The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear him, and he delivers them.
Isaiah 51:7 "Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings." 12-13, "I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass; And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?"
Yup.... I could pretty much go all day with these awesome emphatic declarations of our Mighty God! Truly there is no other god above our God!
God bless,
Alex
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Jesus said those who take the sword will die by the sword.
Once one 'takes up the sword' one dies to the things of this world and one lives unto Christ (I have a two edged sword in my mouth) ;)
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Once one 'takes up the sword' one dies to the things of this world and one lives unto Christ (I have a two edged sword in my mouth) ;)
Yes Ian that is a good example of there being a natural/physical understanding, but the same also has a spiritual application as well.
1Co 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
People in the world/church can only see the physical/natural/literal meaning of the words in Scripture and there is a truth to that, BUT that holds only the meaning for this temporary physical world and holds only death, physically and spiritually.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Even "for all who take the sword will perish by the sword" has a real physical application (as Alex showed) and a higher spiritual meaning (as you showed) as well. But there is also levels of understanding the spiritual as well, as you gain knowledge you can gain more spiritual insight... you can see a spiritual meaning in a Scripture one time and come back later and gain even more meaning in the same Scripture.
Here is a piece from the article 'Twelve Truths to Understanding His Word' that shows how the whole physical creation in this age, what all must experience first, is only carnal minded vanity, as Paul said is nothing but a body of death.
http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm --------------------
Here is how GOD says He created Adam and Eve:
"For the creature was made subject to vanity [King James Margin: "futility"], not willingly, but by reason of Him [God] Who has subjected [Gk: ‘subjects’—aorist tense—subjecting is still going on] the same in hope" (Rom. 8:20).
In Dante’s inferno, "all hope is gone…," but in God’s realm He subjects the entire creation "…in HOPE,"
God willfully, wantingly, knowingly, purposely, and wisely, created mankind "subject to vanity," subject to failure, but beyond the failure, God also subjects the same in "hope." Once again, contrary to all orthodox doctrine, there is hope for all of God’s carnal-minded, God-hating people on planet Earth. God Himself says so, in the same breath: "because the creature itself [the same creation that God subjects to vanity, futility, failure, and carnal-minded hatred against God] also shall be [ah, did you catch that? ‘shall be’], delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God" (Rom. 8:21). Do you believe the Scriptures? Really—what about this one?
And so God, "made the creature subject to vanity"—failure, but later in mankind’s development, the creature "shall be"— [future tense]… shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption." Ah yes, God created them in a condition of "bondage" and "corruption," and therefore not "immortal" as is taught, but rather in "bondage of corruption." But thanks to God, in the resurrection of the dead, ‘…this corruption must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality’ (I Cor. 15:54).
Yes, of course, first comes the PHYSICAL (death), and then the SPIRITUAL (life). There it is—the hope of all humanity. Corruption and mortality (the physical first) must put on incorruption and immortality [the afterward spiritual).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hey Kat I have no problems with this ...I was moved to look up Peters removal of the soldiers ear, and the prompt restoration of his hearing by Jesus ...that is pretty "loaded" in itself .
Awesome word this
apologies,
soldier should read "servant" of the high priest -hope i'm not responsable for cutting off spiritual ears
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Right Ian, just wanted to bring what you and Alex was saying together for the sake of those newer ones here that have not heard all these discussions before.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Jesus said those who take the sword will die by the sword.
Once one 'takes up the sword' one dies to the things of this world and one lives unto Christ (I have a two edged sword in my mouth) ;)
Sometimes you give us a spiritual meaning of a verse, which is just your opinion. Two witnesses are needed to establish a spiritual truth, which takes discernment from God.
I don't see the Scriptures that say humans have a two-edged sword in their mouths. I see where the word of God is like a two-edged sword, and that Jesus has this two-edged sword because He is the Word of God.
Your teaching contradicts what Jesus said, so I hit the snooze button.
The point is, the true followers of Jesus are like Him, we do not kill or follow the ways of violence. We trust in Him for our protection.
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John,Just stating, the sword\word does have two edges - you're right Kat sometimes I dont think of those that are new to the forum .thanx for the wake up call.
The sword Peter used was not necessary bad for the servant of the high priest, though Jesus did say "enough now" my translation - the same servant was used in a confrontational/exposure role ,a little while later which as you know caused a dimension shift in Peter.
Paul also had to use the sword correcting a later indiscretion of Peter.
Re the scriptures there are a few - john 15v7,8 "if you abide in me and my word abides in You .... Duet 6v6 Prov 4v4
There was a stage where i was involved in the armed forces and killed with intent, what is the difference If I say to my brother "RACA" or even if I happen to just think the thought"I could just Kill you " right now.
Certain understandings I once had were put to death by the sword.
The word is the sword of God yes? (btw that is a genuine question)
There is Lots to contemplate in the original question Ryman posed.
Show me where you think what I stated contradicts, so I can repent and move on.
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John,Just stating, the sword\word does have two edges - you're right Kat sometimes I dont think of those that are new to the forum .thanx for the wake up call.
The sword Peter used was not necessary bad for the servant of the high priest, though Jesus did say "enough now" my translation - the same servant was used in a confrontational/exposure role ,a little while later which as you know caused a dimension shift in Peter.
Paul also had to use the sword correcting a later indiscretion of Peter.
Re the scriptures there are a few - john 15v7,8 "if you abide in me and my word abides in You .... Duet 6v6 Prov 4v4
There was a stage where i was involved in the armed forces and killed with intent, what is the difference If I say to my brother "RACA" or even if I happen to just think the thought"I could just Kill you " right now.
Certain understandings I once had were put to death by the sword.
The word is the sword of God yes? (btw that is a genuine question)
There is Lots to contemplate in the original question Ryman posed.
Show me where you think what I stated contradicts, so I can repent and move on.
...and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. Eph 6:17
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Heb 4:12
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So that is your proof Scripture John? Surely you know the passage in Ephesians is speaking to the "brethren" to "take... the sword of the Spirit."
Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might.
v. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
v. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
v. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
v. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
v. 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
v. 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.
v. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;
Surely you know the those believers who have the Spirit indwelling do learn how to wield the truth of the Scripture.
2Tim 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (NKJV)
2Tim 2:15 Give diligence, thyself, approved, to present unto God,—a workman not to be put to shame, skillfully handling the word of truth. (Rotherham)
2Tim 2:15 Endeavor to present yourself to God qualified, an unashamed worker, correctly cutting the word of truth." (CLV)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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So that is your proof Scripture John? Surely you know the passage in Ephesians is speaking to the "brethren" to "take... the sword of the Spirit."
Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might.
v. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
v. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
v. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
v. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
v. 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
v. 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.
v. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;
Surely you know the those believers who have the Spirit indwelling do learn how to wield the truth of the Scripture.
2Tim 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (NKJV)
2Tim 2:15 Give diligence, thyself, approved, to present unto God,—a workman not to be put to shame, skillfully handling the word of truth. (Rotherham)
2Tim 2:15 Endeavor to present yourself to God qualified, an unashamed worker, correctly cutting the word of truth." (CLV)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
No need to get all riled up, Kat.
Ian asked a question, I quote, "The word is the sword of God yes? (btw that is a genuine question)".
I answered the question with two Scriptures. End of story.
The Scriptures explain its own symbols. A sword in many places symbolizes the word of God, which is Jesus. In Genesis, we have the flaming sword turning every which way guarding the Tree of Life, which is also Jesus. Flames and Fire also represent Jesus. And of course, the Cherubim guard the throne of God (Jesus), see Genesis and Ezechiel 1.
However, in the Garden, when Peter was going commando on that guy and cut off his ear, Jesus was not using the word sword in its symbolic sense. He was literally telling Peter not to take the way of violence. Jesus' Kingdom is not of this world. Jesus said that he could have called upon twelve legions of angels (around 72,000) to defend Himself, if force were needed.
But Jesus did not take the way of violent force in this age. Neither should we. That's my point. Easy peasy.
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Peter partially removed Malchus ability to hear Jesus restored it -- Fully
The spiritual implications of Peters actions are huge is what im saying
If you believe this was only a little physical altercation where Peter is "sticking up for Jesus", we best leave it there and continue with the topic.
There were/are those who defend the "gospel" by torturing people literally thru incorrect interpretation
And there were/are those who defend the gospel who have caused great harm spiritually
There are those who believe the good report and some the bad report ---2 edges
whos report do you believe
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So that is your proof Scripture John? Surely you know the passage in Ephesians is speaking to the "brethren" to "take... the sword of the Spirit."
Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might.
v. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
v. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
v. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
v. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
v. 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
v. 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.
v. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;
Surely you know the those believers who have the Spirit indwelling do learn how to wield the truth of the Scripture.
2Tim 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (NKJV)
2Tim 2:15 Give diligence, thyself, approved, to present unto God,—a workman not to be put to shame, skillfully handling the word of truth. (Rotherham)
2Tim 2:15 Endeavor to present yourself to God qualified, an unashamed worker, correctly cutting the word of truth." (CLV)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
No need to get all riled up, Kat.
Ian asked a question, I quote, "The word is the sword of God yes? (btw that is a genuine question)".
I answered the question with two Scriptures. End of story.
The Scriptures explain its own symbols. A sword in many places symbolizes the word of God, which is Jesus. In Genesis, we have the flaming sword turning every which way guarding the Tree of Life, which is also Jesus. Flames and Fire also represent Jesus. And of course, the Cherubim guard the throne of God (Jesus), see Genesis and Ezechiel 1.
However, in the Garden, when Peter was going commando on that guy and cut off his ear, Jesus was not using the word sword in its symbolic sense. He was literally telling Peter not to take the way of violence. Jesus' Kingdom is not of this world. Jesus said that he could have called upon twelve legions of angels (around 72,000) to defend Himself, if force were needed.
But Jesus did not take the way of violent force in this age. Neither should we. That's my point. Easy peasy.
Isn't it possible that there could be a spiritual application to this account though? A spiritual lesson to be learned from peter's physical actions?
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
1 Cor. 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Granted I don't have a scripture verse that matches the "cutting off of the ear" as offending or harming someone's spiritual well being. Though there are many reference to the importance of not simply "seeing" the words of the spirit but "hearing" it too. Without an ear, you can't really hear quite as well now can you?
Just some thoughts.. I don't know where I stand on this interpretation of peter's actions in the garden but I have heard it before. I will pray about it.
God bless,
Alex
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there are a few I discovered Alex
Rev 11v1-14
psalm 149v6\
Prov 5v4
Judges 3 v 13,14,15 and many more
Point is the word is duel two meanings /2 edges
1st your literal understanding which is then divided when one gets spiritual enlightenment.
carnal ears 1st then spiritual - water 1st then wine
“But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22 v36-Rev 3v18
the process of a literal sword being beaten into a spiritual ploughshare takes on new meaning
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I don't see the Scriptures that say humans have a two-edged sword in their mouths. I see where the word of God is like a two-edged sword, and that Jesus has this two-edged sword because He is the Word of God.
Well John this was the comment I was addressing in particular. I totally agree that "A sword in many places symbolizes the word of God, which is Jesus." My point in the Scripture I posted was that believers certainly can wield the two edged sword as well.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I don't see the Scriptures that say humans have a two-edged sword in their mouths.
[/quote]
there are
THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART
Rom 10 v8 and Duet 30v14
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Hey kat.....I already asked about the resurrection of the "wicked" in another topic....
You did mean that only the overcomers will rise with incorruptible immortal etc etc?
To all thanks for all the verses and taking my question further....
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Hi ryman,
I think you must be referring to the part I put in bold here.
http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm --------------------
Here is how GOD says He created Adam and Eve:
"For the creature was made subject to vanity [King James Margin: "futility"], not willingly, but by reason of Him [God] Who has subjected [Gk: ‘subjects’—aorist tense—subjecting is still going on] the same in hope" (Rom. 8:20).
In Dante’s inferno, "all hope is gone…," but in God’s realm He subjects the entire creation "…in HOPE,"
God willfully, wantingly, knowingly, purposely, and wisely, created mankind "subject to vanity," subject to failure, but beyond the failure, God also subjects the same in "hope." Once again, contrary to all orthodox doctrine, there is hope for all of God’s carnal-minded, God-hating people on planet Earth. God Himself says so, in the same breath: "because the creature itself [the same creation that God subjects to vanity, futility, failure, and carnal-minded hatred against God] also shall be [ah, did you catch that? ‘shall be’], delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God" (Rom. 8:21). Do you believe the Scriptures? Really—what about this one?
And so God, "made the creature subject to vanity"—failure, but later in mankind’s development, the creature "shall be"— [future tense]… shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption." Ah yes, God created them in a condition of "bondage" and "corruption," and therefore not "immortal" as is taught, but rather in "bondage of corruption." But thanks to God, in the resurrection of the dead, ‘…this corruption must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality’ (I Cor. 15:54).
Yes, of course, first comes the PHYSICAL (death), and then the SPIRITUAL (life). There it is—the hope of all humanity. Corruption and mortality (the physical first) must put on incorruption and immortality [the afterward spiritual).
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You did mean that only the overcomers will rise with incorruptible immortal etc etc?
Yes Paul is speaking to the brethren in that passage in 1 Cor 15.
1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Arion
You said
' If I'm armed and someone attempts to murder me, my wife, kids, ect then I'll defend them'
Remember that we should love Christ above ALL(including your wife and kids). As a follower of Christ you can't say:' If I'm armed and someone attempts to murder me, my wife, kids, ect then I'll defend them'. You cannot kill for ANYONE if you are a follower of Christ.
Remember Matthew 10:37 'He who is fond of father or mother above Me is not worthy of Me.And he who is fond of son or daughter above Me is not worthy of Me.'(from the CLV)
2nd witness Luke 14:26 'If anyone is coming to Me and is not hating(Love less) his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, and still more his soul besides, he cannot be My disciple.(from CLV)
The command 'turn the other cheek' is an EXTREMELY difficult one especially when you are married. In fact all the commands of Christ are EXTREMELY difficult to follow when you are married because a married man's attention is divided.
Remember 1 Corinthians 7:28 'It isn't wrong to marry, even if you have never been married before. But those who marry will have a lot of trouble, and I want to protect you from that.'(from CEV)
Remember 1 Corinthians 7:28 'But if you decide to marry, that is not a sin. And it is not a sin for a girl who has never married to get married. But those who marry will have trouble in this life, and I want you to be free from this trouble.'(from ERV)
Remember 1 Corinthians 7:35 'What I am saying is for your own good--it isn't to limit your freedom. I want to help you to live right and to LOVE THE LORD ABOVE ALL ELSE.'(from CEV)
I pray that God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ will be good to you and give you peace.
Rinus
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Hello Rinus;
If you could stand back and watch your wife be murdered, your children be raped and you have the means to protect them and yet do nothing then you can pat yourself on the back and believe that you did what God wanted you to do. You stated;
You cannot kill for ANYONE if you are a follower of Christ
God himself kills and yet is without sin. The commandment of course is that 'thou shalt not murder' and the commandment is true and good. I can very well forsee the day as a follower of Christ that I might allow someone to kill me without resistance.
My prayer of course is that I finish my life without God every putting me into a situation where I have to make such a decision for myself or others. We could come up with a lot of hypothetical's of what one would or would not do in certain situations. But if you had the means to intervene and yet stood back and allowed a child to be raped or an innocent to be murdered then you can live with your own conscience on the matter.
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I have seen this discussion before here on the forum. Here is the Scripture mentioned that Jesus spoke.
Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder (from Exo 20:13); and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.'
So it is an old covenant law "You shall not murder (done with malice)," lets not forget we are no longer under the old covenant, but now the new covenant, "but if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law" (Gal 5:18). Believers have a totally different standard than the world does.
You can take any hypothetical bad situation that can possibility arise, say a murderer/rapist set on evil enters your home... is the Lord not right there with you?
Psa 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all His ways, Gracious in all His works.
v. 18 The LORD is near to all who call upon Him, To all who call upon Him in truth.
v. 19 He will fulfill the desire of those who fear Him; He also will hear their cry and save them.
v. 20 The LORD preserves all who love Him, But all the wicked He will destroy.
Psa 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; For You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
Do we fear what a man can do or the Lord more? "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell/gehenna" (Mat 10:28). Is there a single Scripture that says it is okay to kill to protect yourself or even your family? Do we have any reference in Scripture to one of the believers using violence to protect themselves or family, even when most of them were being struck down and killed? We do have an incidence where Peter struck the high priest's servant with his sword and cut off his ear what did the Lord say...
Mat 26:52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
v. 53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?
What Christ said reminds me of a passage that I think of when these questions come up.
2Ki 6:15 And when the servant of the man of God arose early and went out, there was an army, surrounding the city with horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, "Alas, my master! What shall we do?"
v. 16 So he answered, "Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them."
v. 17 And Elisha prayed, and said, "LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see." Then the LORD opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.
Just some of my thoughts on this.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
p.s. I will add that I think this is a much more difficult for a man, who is head of the household and considered protector of his family.
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Regarding our defense, it is of God.
Matthew 26:52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."
Matthew 26:53 "Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?"
Romans 13:1 "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God."
Romans 13:2 "Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."
Romans 12:17 "Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all."
As a man who intends to marry very soon to make his home right in the sight of God, I wrestle with the thought of doing nothing in the defense of my earthly family. However, I would be resisting God and through my actions declaring Him unfit to do with my life as He wills.
We are to be an offering unto God, our lives, we must trust Him fully.
Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."
Ephisians 5:1 "Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children."
1 John 4:17 "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world."
Remember that it was by FAITH that all the patriarchs pleased God.
Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the convinction of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:2 "For by it the elders obtained a good report."
Hebrews 11:3 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."
Hebrews 11:4 "By faith Abel offered unto God..."
Hebrews 11:5 "By faith Enoch was translated that..."
Hebrews 11:7 "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet..."
Hebrews 11:8 "By faith Abraham..."
Hebrews 11:11 "Through faith also Sara herself received..."
Hebrews 11:20 "By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come."
Hebrews 11:21 "By faith Jacob, when he was a dying..."
Hebrews 11:22 "By faith Joseph, when he died,..."
Hebrews 11:23 " By faith Moses, when he was born..."
Hebrews 11:29 "By faith they passed through the Red..."
Hebrews 11:30 "By faith the walls of Jericho fell down..."
Hebrews 11:31 "By faith the harlot Rahab perished not..."
Hebrews 11:32 "And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:"
Hebrews 11:33 "Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions."
Hebrews 11:34 "Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens."
Hebrews 11:35 "Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:"
Hebrews 11:36 "And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:"
Hebrews 11:37 "They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;"
Hebrews 11:38 "(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth."
BY FAITH....TRUST GOD.
Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
God will always protect those that trust in Him and believe on Him.
Isaiah 33:22 "For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, the Lord is our king; he will save us."
Psalm 46:1 "To the choirmaster. Of the Sons of Korah. According to Alamoth. A Song. God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble."
Psalm 31:1-3 "In thee, O Lord, do I put my trust; let me never be ashamed: deliver me in thy righteousness. Bow down thine ear to me; deliver me speedily: be thou my strong rock, for an house of defence to save me. For thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for thy name's sake lead me, and guide me."
Psalm 7:10 "My defence is of God, which saveth the upright in heart."
Psalm 34:19 "Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the Lord delivereth him out of them all."
Psalm 34:7 "The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear him, and he delivers them."
Isaiah 51:7 "Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings."
Isaiah 51:12-13 "I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass; And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?"
So brethren I will repeat what was said once many many many years ago but is very relevent to us.
Acts 5:29 "Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men."
Matthew 10:16 "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."
Obey God and trust Him!
Mark 11:22 "'Have faith in God,' Jesus answered."
Psalm 62:8 "Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah."
Matthew 14:30 "But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
Matthew 14:31 "And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, why did you doubt?"
God will repay those who do evil.
Rom 12:9-21 "Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another; not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer; distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion. Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."
Philippians 4:4-8 "Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice. Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."
God bless,
Alex
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Hi Arion
If you could stand back and watch your country be attacked and your men be murdered,your brothers and sisters in christ, your children and their friends be raped and you have the means to protect them and yet do nothing then you can pat yourself on the back and believe that you did what God wanted you to do.
YES I STATED:"You cannot kill for anyone if you are a follower of christ.What?Are you against what i said?
You say :"God himself kills and yet is without sin". Now whats that got to do with my post to you?
You also say:"The commandment of course is that 'thou shalt not murder' and the commandment is true and good.'Again, whats this commandment got to do with my post to you? I didn't even speak about this commandment. My post was about what you said and i'll remind you. You said:"' If I'm armed and someone attempts to murder me, my wife, kids, ect then I'll defend them".
Remember that these countries that are attacking USA are trying to(I'll borrow your words from you statement) murder you, your wife, kids, and i 'll add your family, friends and other citizens and Yet YOU DO HAVE THE MEANS to protect them, you can join the army and go to war. Your government is giving you the means to protect them. You wanted the armour and means, well there you go!There's your means! But ofcoz you not gonna take those MEANS because you ARE NOT WILLING TO KILL ANYONE FOR CHRIST.
You say:"If you(thats me) could stand back and watch your wife be murdered, your children be raped and you have the means to protect them and yet do nothing then you can pat yourself on the back and believe that you did what God wanted you to do"
Well your country gives you the means to protect your family and yet you are doing nothing about it.So are you gonna pat yourself on the back?Can you live with your own conscience on this matter?
I must say though i understand.We love our family and i pray God doesn't put you(Arion) in such a hard and difficult position.
I pray that God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ will be good to you and give you peace.
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This whole discussion leads me to believe that God’s intentions are no longer considered and that people have free reign of their will.
I don’t think anyone would disagree with me that the sermon on the mount is so beautiful but who can live by its message with their so called free will ?
When one ask, what would you do ( if )........I know you’ll do God’s intentions to the tee, nothing more and nothing less.
But lets not say, we will do this or that but lets say, if its Gods will, we will do this or that or maybe you think you direct your own footsteps and can do all the desires of your heart not remembering that God owns your next breath and when God takes back His spirit the only thing you’ll do is sleep until the resurrection. ;)
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Rick, it is very true what you say, we have no free will and that God certainly directs our every step. But we are all trying to learn how to live according to righteous from what we see instructed in the Scripture. That is what makes the Scripture that says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," have so much meaning to us.
Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
v. 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Yes we are totally dependent on God for everything, but we must (only by His Spirit) put into effect in our lives what we are learning and these discussion are our "working" it out in our minds first. First we study - discuss - learn these truths and come to an understanding, then we can apply what we have learned/believe. See what I mean?
I don't think we are saying 'this is how righteous I am and this is what I will do,' I think it's more like what we believe is the right thing to do and we are encouraging each other in that, by what we are seeing in Scripture. These discussion are a good thing and are helpful to many... I believe they are uplifting our God, certainly not trying to lift up ourselves (free will), not at all.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Nobody can know exactly what they would do unless and until they are in such a situation. We can quote scripture until the cows come home but until your faced with such a situation you really don't know exactly what you would do. Some of us however have been in that sort of situation and it has been removed from the theoretical and into real life as it were. My prayer for all of you is that God will never put you into such a situation that you have to make a split second life/death situation. My further prayer is that if you can't make such a split second decision that God will by his providence put into place someone who can make such a decision. Police officers, even believers are thrust out of the theoretical and into real life on a daily basis.
If you can't/won't defend your family then I hope that someone else will do so for you. All religiosity aside I can't conceive that I could allow my wife to be raped or my children to be ravished while I had the capacity to change the situation. May you do better if you are thrust into such a situation. And to prevent myself from saying something I might later regret this will be my last posting on this particular thread, This sort of thing is real life ladies and gentlemen....and perhaps real soon to be something we might have to deal with considering the situation in this country. I will defend the helpless and innocent while breath remains in my body and if God gives me the means to do so. With that being said I need to withdraw from this thread lest I utter words I may later regret. Cowardice in the face of adversity is something I can't whitewash over with scripture quotes.
For myself...yes. My life doesn't mean very much. But for the sake of innocent or children that have not yet had a chance to live then that is different. I would gladly give my life for such and even for those who deal in the theoretical and have not had real life experiences slap them up against the head. Best for you to pray that God never puts you into such a dilemma. You might think now that you would know in advance how you would react. May I say that until you have been there you simply don't know....and I'll leave it at that.
Peace......
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Nobody can know exactly what they would do unless and until they are in such a situation. We can quote scripture until the cows come home but until your faced with such a situation you really don't know exactly what you would do. Some of us however have been in that sort of situation and it has been removed from the theoretical and into real life as it were. My prayer for all of you is that God will never put you into such a situation that you have to make a split second life/death situation. My further prayer is that if you can't make such a split second decision that God will by his providence put into place someone who can make such a decision. Police officers, even believers are thrust out of the theoretical and into real life on a daily basis.
If you can't/won't defend your family then I hope that someone else will do so for you. All religiosity aside I can't conceive that I could allow my wife to be raped or my children to be ravished while I had the capacity to change the situation. May you do better if you are thrust into such a situation. And to prevent myself from saying something I might later regret this will be my last posting on this particular thread, This sort of thing is real life ladies and gentlemen....and perhaps real soon to be something we might have to deal with considering the situation in this country. I will defend the helpless and innocent while breath remains in my body and if God gives me the means to do so. With that being said I need to withdraw from this thread lest I utter words I may later regret. Cowardice in the face of adversity is something I can't whitewash over with scripture quotes.
This statement is striking. Is our faith somehow less real than the situation you described? Is God less real? Trusting in Him is an act of cowardice? Ouch...
You are absolutely right Arion that none of us can know with certainty how we will react, only God, but as Kat said, it helps us to know how we should act so that we might strive closer to God. None of us are saying that anyone who has acted differently is somehow less than the rest because in the end only God can give us the power to do right in His eyes during such a situation. We know that without Him we can do nothing. We are all far from being perfect and upright. It takes the power of God to do good and to walk in His ways and that includes in situations as evil and terrifying as the ones you described. No one is saying anything less. We have no free will in the matter.
As brothers and sisters, we should pray for one another, that God keep us from such an evil day and that he make safe the path that leads to Him.
My post was never meant to offend you but to edify the brethren and strengthen us in the Lord that we might seek Him and, by His grace and mercy, walk after Him.
God bless,
Alex
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Hello Arion,
why get so hot with anger ? All who use scripture are well versed in scripture but as you must realize knowing scripture and living scripture are not one in the same.
But one can not live scripture unless they know scripture and one cannot live scripture unless God intends for them to live it out in their life . ( The chosen only )
Wisdom tells me your absolutely right , until anyone is confronted with any situation, one does not know how they will respond / react until that precise moment.
The carnal mind is a strange thing to behold, who can know it or the works there of, for it in its self is a slave to sin not righteousness. :(
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Dear friends in the family of God,
I'm sure that I cannot provide any better answer than has been given, but I would like to add a couple of thoughts for your consideration.
I have been a police officer and presently have an Army .45 in my possession. I know how to use it and have thought deeply whether I ever would kill in defense of myself and my neighbors.
So since I'm just as likely as anyone to "react" to a situation that I had not anticipated I have decided (partly) to do my best to avoid that difficult choice.
I plan to pray every night as I prepare for sleep that God will not test me in any manner for which I am not prepared. I pray that God will protect my family and neighbors too and spiritually cloud the eyes of any who would intend to do us harm.
Now then the question is; can I trust that God will do what is best for my situation? I think yes, but that trust is a faith that doesn't come easily or quickly and I have struggled with wondering what my conduct will be if tested.
I just try to keep in mind that God can, and I pray will grant me the protection of just one of His holy angels to intervene and watch over us and to "inspire" me to trust that whatever happens it is God's will.
I also keep in mind that God does NOT test us above what we are able to handle.
God put a "hedge" around JOB and all that was his.
There are many examples in scripture such as that of Abraham's sacrifice of his only son Isaac that are provided to guide us. Or do we think that God is not as concerned with EACH of us as much as God was with Abraham?
I assure you that God is personally concerned, through God's son the Lord Jesus, in the development of the least of us. AND that gives me the comfort that I need.
Respectfully offered, indiana bob
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Absolutely true! One does not know how they will respond/react until that precise moment. But thank God he didn't leave us in the dark, cos he has told us how to respond/react when these situations come to us.
These commands are difficult guys. I'm reminded of Ray's words when he said:"Being saved is the MOST DIFFICULT thing all human beings will ever go through." So judging by those words we can be sure that these ARROWS of God will strike all those who have been chosen. These the same arrows that struck Job, the same arrows that struck Paul,Jacob,L Ray Smith,King David,Samson just to name a few.
God has not kept us in the dark but has kept us in his light on how to live our lives and act when these situations come. I just hope and pray that we don't loose heart when these trials/mountains/situations/arrows/judgements are thrown in our path.
Remember brothers and sisters! These same mountains are going to make us rich.
I pray that God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ will be good to you all and give you peace!
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Wisdom tells me your absolutely right , until anyone is confronted with any situation, one does not know how they will respond / react until that precise moment.
The carnal mind is a strange thing to behold, who can know it or the works there of, for it in its self is a slave to sin not righteousness. :(
Pro 23:7 For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.
So we cannot possiblly know what we would or would not do? Don't we think about these things and come to some ideas of where we morally stand on issues? Sounds like some people have thought this thing through quite a bit. So do we trust God to protect us and our family... or do we keep a gun handy as a backup just is case He forgets about us and 'we' need to do something?
Luke 12:7 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.
Psa 46:1 God is our refuge and strength, A very present help in trouble.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi kat
Talk about telling it like it is.Your wise words always put a smile on my face,and reveal your experience.Absolutely love your response!
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No, we cannot possibly know what we will or will not do. Sorry. We work out our salvation with fear and trembling because we KNOW that it is God working in us both to WILL and to DO His good pleasure.
I know of people who seem to be itching for some evil to befall them so they can pull out their gun and get 'em some justice. But even if they plan THAT, theLord may still soften their hearts and give them another way. And I know of one mild-mannered youg man who tried to endure persecution and be a 'good christian' and wound up hurling a desk across study hall at his tormentors. Nobody was injured, and I--I mean HE--didn't get in trouble.
Away from the 'personal' and back to the OP. I can't help it. I'm glad the allies won WWII. I'm glad the Union prevailed in the American Civil War. I'm glad for the fall of communism in central and eastern Europe. Even though in all of those instances when the will of God actually became KNOWN instead of often claimed by all sides and speculated about, there were evils that came out of those "goods". I'm thankful for those God has ordained to do His will, and forgive the rest. I also forgive those who are ordained to do His will and am thankful for the rest. The only ones I have no real feelings for are the one who don't do a d--n thing. What am I supposed to feel for 'nothing'?
EVIL has no moral component. Perhaps "good" doesn't either. People have done "good" things with "evil" consequences and "evil" things with good consequences. Wisdom tells me there is such a wide-range of outcomes to every major occurrence that only God Himself can make sense of it all. Good thing, because He is at the helm of it all in the first place. God is sovereign over ALL that happens. HE created evil and INTENDS EVIL FOR GOOD. HE is reconciling ALL THINGS unto Himself. He is still at it, even though many are sure they have it all figured out.
I reckon I am so radical that not only do I not place the Law of Moses on gentiles--I don't place the Sermon on the Mount on the world at large. The "option" or "choice" or power to love your enemies is NOT open and available to the world. If it IS, then they aren't really the "world" any more, are they?