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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Ian 155 on November 24, 2014, 07:13:34 AM
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All sin leads to death however we have this
1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin "which is" not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. ""= spurious
(1Jn 5:17) All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
there is A sin....?
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Hello Ian,
This does seem like a curious statement. This is how I see it right now. Feel free to agree or disagree, just sharing.
Firstly, I think its important to address the matter of "death" as seen in these verses.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
So with that in mind, there are certain sins where we are admonished to deliver that person up unto satan for the destruction of the flesh that they may be saved.
1 Corinthians 5
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
I think paul's example is more apt as to its relevance to what John said about a sin being unto death, or delivering up for destruction, but there is also this in Matthew that pertains to "excommunication" as it might be termed by some:
Matthew 18:15-17
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Now we also have examples where we are to be forgiving one another. Perhaps this is what John is talking about when he says making "requests" and then NOT making requests. I'll share that verse as you have it from concordant after this.
Luke 17:3-4 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
2 Thess 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
2 Thess 3:11-14 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread. But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing. And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
So now back to your verse:
1Jn 5:15 And if ever we are aware that He is hearing us, whatever we may be requesting, we are aware that we have the requests which we have requested from Him."
1Jn 5:16 If anyone should be perceiving his brother sinning a sin not to death, he shall be requesting, and He will be giving him life for those sinning not to death. There is a sin to death: I am not saying that he should be asking concerning that."
1Jn 5:17 All injustice is sin, and there is a sin not to death."
I really see a very close relationship to this verse and what Paul says in Corinthians. Either way, it appears from these different verses that this is a complex matter as far as discerning when we are to forgive, separate ourselves, or deliver one up unto satan for the destruction of the flesh.
As for the specific "A sin..." I feel that there could be many sins that are not "unto death" (Worthy of deliverance unto satan for destruction of the flesh) and I don't think John is saying that there is only ONE That is not unto death so much as he is saying if a person commits A SIN of THE category or type that pertains to those which do not lead to death then make your requests for him (pray for him etc..). You can really see that when you look at "a sin" in 5:17 in the context of how "a sin" was stated in 5:16.
Feel free to agree or disagree.
In Christ,
Alex
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This subject is confusing to me because I believe if one is of god’s elect their salvation is guaranteed so it would be impossible to sin a sin which leads to death concerning the elect.
Christ is the author and finisher of our faith, so to say one of the elect can sin a sin that leads to death is to say Christ failed as Christendom believes He will.
Also one who is not the elect can sin whatever sin they sin and their salvation is still guaranteed as they emerged from God’s judgement from the lake of fire.
Perhaps the translation is off, maybe, I’m not really sure tho. ???
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Great addition rick!
Yes, the second death, the lake of fire. That brings it full circle in my humble opinion. To sin a sin to death is to become subject to the second death which we know those who overcome will have no part in. In my opinion, this all harmonizes nicely together; However, I am totally open to more input but I think you added some great food for thought rick.
As you pointed out, its not possible for the elect to be deceived or end up in the lake of fire ("sin a sin that leads to death") but you have to remember that we ourselves do not know who the elect are so from our perspective all these admonishments must be taken seriously.
God bless,
Alex
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Okay I believe these Scripture are additional witnesses, that show that the believers are to help one another if we see somebody needs help in understanding.
James 5:19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back,
v. 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.
This makes it clear that we should help another brother/believer who we think is being drawn astray into falsehood. This is the same thing that the Scripture in 1 John is speaking of, I will put my comments in brackets.
1John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin (an error/sin, but not so grave as to have lead them totally astray yet, so...) which does not lead to (spiritual) death (in this lifetime), he will ask (pray to God and if it's according to His will), and He will give him life (return that one to a right understanding) for those who commit sin not leading to (spiritual) death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
Now this is speaking of a "brother," or somebody that believes these truth... but are all brothers/believers elect? What I mean is does everybody that starts out and shares this understanding of the truth go on to be faithful to the end and are actually an elect? What about the wheat and the tare? They go all the way to the end among the elect (and even appear to be elect) before they are separated (Matt 13). Now there is also Scripture that speaks of somebody who is "enlightened," yet do "fall away" and that cannot be brought back to the truth in this lifetime, or as it's put at the end of 1John 5:16 "...there is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that."
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
v. 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
v. 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Now this seems to be speaking of those that do receive and even embrace this truth, but do not continue in it for one reason or another... makes me think of the parable of the sower and the seed.
Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
v. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
v. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
v. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
v. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.
Hope that is helpful.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Great addition rick!
Yes, the second death, the lake of fire. That brings it full circle in my humble opinion. To sin a sin to death is to become subject to the second death which we know those who overcome will have no part in. In my opinion, this all harmonizes nicely together; However, I am totally open to more input but I think you added some great food for thought rick.
As you pointed out, its not possible for the elect to be deceived or end up in the lake of fire ("sin a sin that leads to death") but you have to remember that we ourselves do not know who the elect are so from our perspective all these admonishments must be taken seriously
God bless,
Alex
its not possible for the elect to end up in the lake of fire! I guess they won't be that elect if their still as carnal as hell , lol Alex ya better go back and read the lake of fire series, I don't think that's what LRay teaches!!! But if you are the elect it probably gets pretty hot some times!! In Christ Mike
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Great addition rick!
Yes, the second death, the lake of fire. That brings it full circle in my humble opinion. To sin a sin to death is to become subject to the second death which we know those who overcome will have no part in. In my opinion, this all harmonizes nicely together; However, I am totally open to more input but I think you added some great food for thought rick.
As you pointed out, its not possible for the elect to be deceived or end up in the lake of fire ("sin a sin that leads to death") but you have to remember that we ourselves do not know who the elect are so from our perspective all these admonishments must be taken seriously
God bless,
Alex
its not possible for the elect to end up in the lake of fire! I guess they won't be that elect if their still as carnal as hell , lol Alex ya better go back and read the lake of fire series, I don't think that's what LRay teaches!!! But if you are the elect it probably gets pretty hot some times!! In Christ Mike
If for some reason I have overstepped my bounds then I believe the moderators would be kind enough to inform me. If I contradicted anything ray said or the scriptures then the mods are here to give the warning. Perhaps it is you, mike, who should return to the series and read again. You have offered no witnesses to your claims and nothing from ray. What I said does not contradict what the scriptures say. The elect will not have take part in the lake of fire which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
The elect are those who overcome.
Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Ephesians 2:19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcomethwill I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Luke 13:23-24 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
They will not be hurt by the second death.
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall NOT be hurt of the second death.
The elect will have already been judged by the time the world is judged at the great white throne of judgement where the lake of fire will consume them and the elect will be apart of this process in judging the world and ruling with Christ.
Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lord's.
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
In Christ,
Alex
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Okay I believe these Scripture are additional witnesses, that show that the believers are to help one another if we see somebody needs help in understanding.
James 5:19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back,
v. 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.
This makes it clear that we should help another brother/believer who we think is being drawn astray into falsehood. This is the same thing that the Scripture in 1 John is speaking of, I will put my comments in brackets.
1John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin (an error/sin, but not so grave as to have lead them totally astray yet, so...) which does not lead to (spiritual) death (in this lifetime), he will ask (pray to God and if it's according to His will), and He will give him life (return that one to a right understanding) for those who commit sin not leading to (spiritual) death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
Now this is speaking of a "brother," or somebody that believes these truth... but are all brothers/believers elect? What I mean is does everybody that starts out and shares this understanding of the truth go on to be faithful to the end and are actually an elect? What about the wheat and the tare? They go all the way to the end among the elect (and even appear to be elect) before they are separated (Matt 13). Now there is also Scripture that speaks of somebody who is "enlightened," yet do "fall away" and that cannot be brought back to the truth in this lifetime, or as it's put at the end of 1John 5:16 "...there is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that."
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
v. 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
v. 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Now this seems to be speaking of those that do receive and even embrace this truth, but do not continue in it for one reason or another... makes me think of the parable of the sower and the seed.
Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
v. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
v. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
v. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
v. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.
Hope that is helpful.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Very good addition kat as well. I think your post and rick's reminder of the second death really brought everything together for me.
God bless,
Alex
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I personally don’t see any important’s of worrying about anything in this life. The creation is not responsible for its self in any way, one has no say or control over their own life. If anyone feels differently and thinks they can control their life, then they have denied the very sovereignty of God, who they say they believe in.
If we have spiritual understanding, if we do anything that is honorable or that is good or that is right in God’s sight it is only by the grace of God we are able to do these things. All good things come from God and from God only. All honor and praise belong to our creator we call God who is our heavenly Father.
There is not a person alive or that ever lived or ever will live that would not commit that sin which leads to death, we know this because scripture tells us this, when it says.
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is non that doeth good, no, not, so much as one.
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
It is Gods choice, it is the council of God and all His declaration that will come to pass in each and everyone’s life.
What are His plans for your life and for my life ? If one commits the sin that leads to death, it must be understood that they made the only choice possible at that precise moment in time where thousands of circumstances caused that one to choose death over life which God is the cause of all things in heaven and earth.
No one can commit suicide until God says so, no one can do anything on their own, man does not direct his own footsteps , and all footsteps lead us to do the things we do.
If one believes in God then one has to believe in the complete sovereignty of God, or the truth is not in that one. And we know that we worship God in spirit and in truth. :)
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Well Alex read away! ...Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? (Jeremiah 23:29 KJV)...And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God. (Zechariah 13:9 KJV).....That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 1:7 KJV)....Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: (1 Peter 4:12 KJV)... Now alex this one you really have to understand that every mans work, means every mans work!!!...Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:13-15 KJV)... Now this will take some spiritual discernment, to know which lake of fire you are in or going to be in!! But the natural man receives not the things of the spirit for they are foolishness to him,neither can he know , because they are spiritually discerned.... In Christ Mike
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P.S alex , Jesus is the lake of fire, are God is a consuming FIRE... In Christ Mike
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Well Alex read away! ...Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? (Jeremiah 23:29 KJV)...And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God. (Zechariah 13:9 KJV).....That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 1:7 KJV)....Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: (1 Peter 4:12 KJV)... Now alex this one you really have to understand that every mans work, means every mans work!!!...Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:13-15 KJV)... Now this will take some spiritual discernment, to know which lake of fire you are in or going to be in!! But the natural man receives not the things of the spirit for they are foolishness to him,neither can he know , because they are spiritually discerned.... In Christ Mike
For the sake of brevity I've edited my original post.
Mike,
I do not disagree with any of the verses of scripture you shared and I don't think that the elect will be hurt by the second death which is the lake of fire as scripture says.
Rays paper on gehena (Link: http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm) and what revelation states leads me to believe that the elect, the house of God, the saints, and the chosen, undergo Gehenna fire right now, voluntarily, because they desire to become more and more like Christ. The rest of the world, and infact, those who do not overcome, will end up in what is termed the "lake of fire." The fire that tries the house of God in gehenna fire and the fire that is used upon the world in the lake is the same fire. For some, the lake of fire will be a rough time of judging, such as hitler, for others, perhaps the chosen who did not overcome, they may receive "few stripes" as is written. Either way, I believe Christ taught the judgement upon the house of God "Gehenna fire" and not "the lake of fire" for a reason. The distinction was made because they are not identical though their purpose is the same, to save mankind. Another important distinction is that the lake of fire will also be not just Christ but the elect as well. They will bring judgement upon the earth with Christ during His reign to teach the world righteousness.
I'm open to discussion.
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Hi Alex,
To become subjected to the second death is to suggest one was at one time not subjected to the second death, One is either subjected to the second death or they are not subjected to the second death.
Everyone will go through the lake of fire either now before the resurrection or after the resurrection, no one will escape the lake of fire whether they are the elect or not.
Not all will end up in the second death such as God’s elect but all will end up being made in the image of God and God will be everyone’s God and Father because God will be all in all.
John the Baptist said, He must increase and I must decrease, the measure in which one believes in the sovereignty of God is equal to the measure they have decrease to self. All this is of God who wills and does all His pleasures in us.
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Hi Alex,
To become subjected to the second death is to suggest one was at one time not subjected to the second death, One is either subjected to the second death or they are not subjected to the second death.
Everyone will go through the lake of fire either now before the resurrection or after the resurrection, no one will escape the lake of fire whether they are the elect or not.
Not all will end up in the second death such as God’s elect but all will end up being made in the image of God and God will be everyone’s God and Father because God will be all in all.
John the Baptist said, He must increase and I must decrease, the measure in which one believes in the sovereignty of God is equal to the measure they have decrease to self. All this is of God who wills and does all His pleasures in us.
Hi Rick,
Thanks for your contribution. I do agree that everyone is salted by fire and the fire tries every man's work. That there is no two separate fires. I guess my only difference of opinion here is that the elect will not be (or are not) judged in the lake but are rather judged in Gehenna. At least... that's what I thought all of ray's paper on Gehenna was about. I do agree though that it is the same fire just that its given a different name while it is happening to us in this lifetime as opposed to at the great white throne of judgement after the Resurrection of the dead.
Perhaps my use of the word "subjected" was not the best.
Is there a piece in ray's lake of fire series where he calls the judgement upon the house of God the "lake of fire?" Because he seems to attribute this judgement that has began now to "Gehenna" but I could be wrong.
Alex
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What about this
One is born naturally OK, into this place... this person is an "automatic" sinner ;)
During the course of his/her days,this particular person gets handed over into Satans hands for the purpose of destroying all carnality (logic reasoning) Flesh
(now I know some may say this process is reserved for folks that sleep with their mother and queers and stuff like that but really, looking a Job and other characters that represent things we go thru they were not fornicators in the Physical sense they were however spiritual fornicators and idolised their "achievements")
During this phase you loose everything and eventually become accustom to the process happening, it then becomes a distant memory this is like unto death,Job describes this process pretty well as does Jesus (now before anyone screams at me... Im not saying he had to be purged of sin) He had to Die though, and is our (physical)example.
The death of Jesus represents our "spiritual" death either in this life for some or in the next for most.
Now those that are dead to this world and the concerns thereof, including sin those who take every thought captive, those who shun evil those who walk in his light all the time,those who no longer live to appease the flesh,these are who I would call reborn sons of God "this is my son with whom I am well pleased..."
Since we understand one cannot assume they are elect, ok I know Ray did speak on "knowing" referring to paul's statement "now I know there awaits for me a crown..." this seems pretty straightforward but then we read in revelation and john talks about these same crowns the elders had and the elders had to cast their crowns down,in his presence.
So it is I have often grasped a spiritual truth and run with it on one level then tried to apply it to everything and have heard the words "who is this that darkens my council"
This to me is a sin that does not lead to (spiritual)death as instruction is coming from on high which leads to repentance ,forgiveness and a higher level of understanding don't forget the humbling part
To die to this world is pretty awesome its our carnality that perverts everything
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Now alex this one you really have to understand that every mans work, means every mans work!!!
Well Mike I believe your indication is that the elect must be judged in the Lake of fire if/because 'every' man's work is to be judged there. Well there are Scripture that state there will be a 'separation' at Christ's coming/return, where He will bring a few into the kingdom as spiritual beings that serve with Him in His reign over the world for the next age.
Mat 25:33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
v. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting (eonian, CLV; age-abiding, Rotherham) fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
It's every or all of the rest of the people "great and small" that go to the Lake of fire, because the elect are now part of the kingdom ruling/judging with Christ.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;
v. 12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls--according to their works;
v. 13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;
v. 14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;
v. 15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.
So as you can see by this Scripture that "every" is a relative term for those that are still physical/goats. All do have to be judged and the elect have already been during their physical lifetime, as some of the Scripture you posted indicate, that was there 'second death' in fire, but not the lake of fire.
P.S alex , Jesus is the lake of fire, are God is a consuming FIRE... In Christ Mike
Mike, Yes of course Jesus is the Lake of fire, but the elect will have joined with Him and they will be sons of God and Christ will do the judging through them "or know ye not that, the saints, shall judge the world?" (1Cor 6:2). Here is where Ray expressly states that the elect are 'the' lake of fire with Christ.
http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html --------------------------
"…they were judged every man according to their works," and "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE" (Rev. 20:13 & 15).
Therefore, we, the Saints, the Body of Christ, the consuming fire ministers of God, the saviours of Mt. Zion, the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, along with our Head, Jesus Christ, also ARE THE LAKE OF FIRE!
THERE IS NO LITERAL LAKE, AND THERE IS NO LITERAL FIRE. Jesus Christ and His Body of Saints ARE THE LAKE OF JUDGING, PURIFYING, CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!!
The lake of fire is a metaphor written in symbols that stand for what is being symbolized, not the symbols themselves. The lake of fire is composed of Jesus Christ the Judge of the world, Christ’s divine spiritual fire and brimstone, and the Sons of God who are the body of Christ who are also FLAMES OF FIRE (Heb. 1:7).
And the whole world will be judged BY US! After death, all the dead will be resurrected, they will all be judged, they will have to pass through the purifying lake of fire, they will have to PASS THROUGH US! WE will be their judge along with our Lord.
"Know ye not that the SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD?"
And so, the GREAT SEA OF HUMANITY will be judged in the safety and security of the LAKE OF SAINTS!
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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To add to what Kat said, in ray's paper on Gehenna he states this:
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm
Gehenna fire is first and foremost for Christ's disciples (the Elect), and is first taught by Jesus on the sermon on the mount to His disciples. It is therefore not literal fire, nor is it everlasting fire. "Gehenna fire" (Matt. 18:9 is also called "eonian [NOT 'everlasting'] fire" in Matt. 18:8, and also in Matt. 25:41 where this eonian fire prepared for the devil and his ministers will be judged in the resurrection to Judgment in "The Lake of Fire" (Rev. 20:15 & 21:8). The Gehenna fire, eonian fire, lake of fire, are all the Judgment of God. These fires are all the same ONE fire that come from the same ONE God, and "Our [One] God is a consuming FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
and..
Notice how Paul's statement is in perfect agreement with that of Jesus: "And if your right eye offend you, [you] pluck it out... And if your right hand offend you, [you] cut it off..." (Matt. 5:29-30).
Isn't that amazing? That's how Jesus Judges US. He helps us judge OURSELVES! It is voluntary. But if we do not volunteer to judge ourselves, guess what? "...for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish [voluntarily] and not that your whole body should be cast [Gk: ballo-'throw violently or intensely' against your will] into Gehenna [fire]" (Ver. 30)
"For if we would judge ourselves we should not be judged... we should not be condemned with the world" (I Cor. 11:31-32).
No man's physical eyes has ever lusted after anything. All lust comes from the heart, the carnal mind, and that part of the carnal mind must be "plucked out," or "cut off." But you must be the one who does the plucking and cutting or God will intervene and "cast your whole body into Gehenna fire" in a later Judgment where this spiritual fire is called "The Lake of Fire."
We can either volunteer to stop sinning now, in this life, or God will volunteer us to stop sinning later, in the resurrection to Judgment. Yes, of course, it will be God in us regardless of which Judgment we find ourselves.
Now we learn something very specific from Christ's statements regarding Gehenna fire in this Sermon on the Mount, but we must look very closely to see this truth.
One of the ways that Jesus Judges His disciples is through spiritual "Gehenna fire." If one doesn't "pluck out an eye" or "cut off a hand," the result will be that "your whole body should be cast into hell [Gehenna fire]" (Matt. 5:30). Read it carefully now: By not plucking out one's eye or cutting off one's hand, the result is that one's whole body is cast into Gehenna fire. What then does plucking out an eye or cutting off a hand represent, but the fact that only part of one's body at a time is being destroyed in Gehenna fire. We can either have the different parts of our carnal mind burned by this spiritual Gehenna fire, and reign with Christ, or we can have our whole body burned by this Gehenna fire and miss out on reigning with Christ.
This harmonizes perfectly with what Kat said about those not found written on the scroll of life/book of life. They end up in the lake of fire. Those who overcome (The elect) are not hurt by it, they cannot be hurt by it, because THEY ARE the lake of fire and they were judged already in Gehenna which contains the same fire that they now have become.
Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Isaiah 33:14-15 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall NOT be hurt of the second death.
because again... "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world." (I Cor. 11:31)
In Christ,
Alex
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Hi Ian,
I found this in matthew about gehenna fire that matches up nicely with some of the verses kat shared and what ray said.
1Jn 5:15 And if ever we are aware that He is hearing us, whatever we may be requesting, we are aware that we have the requests which we have requested from Him."
1Jn 5:16 If anyone should be perceiving his brother sinning a sin not to death, he shall be requesting, and He will be giving him life for those sinning not to death. There is a sin to death: I am not saying that he should be asking concerning that."
1Jn 5:17 All injustice is sin, and there is a sin not to death."
James 5:19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back,
v. 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell[lit. Gehenna].
Ray's words:
No man's physical eyes has ever lusted after anything. All lust comes from the heart, the carnal mind, and that part of the carnal mind must be "plucked out," or "cut off." But you must be the one who does the plucking and cutting or God will intervene and "cast your whole body into Gehenna fire" in a later Judgment where this spiritual fire is called "The Lake of Fire."
We can either volunteer to stop sinning now, in this life, or God will volunteer us to stop sinning later, in the resurrection to Judgment. Yes, of course, it will be God in us regardless of which Judgment we find ourselves.
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Seems all these above things are very closely related.
Just more food for thought.
Alex
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I personally don’t see any important’s of worrying about anything in this life. The creation is not responsible for its self in any way, one has no say or control over their own life. If anyone feels differently and thinks they can control their life, then they have denied the very sovereignty of God, who they say they believe in.
If we have spiritual understanding, if we do anything that is honorable or that is good or that is right in God’s sight it is only by the grace of God we are able to do these things. All good things come from God and from God only. All honor and praise belong to our creator we call God who is our heavenly Father.
Rick, I can understand where you are coming from about the sovereignty of God, no we should not sorry, but you sound like we have absolutely no involvement in what's going on at all. We are not just spectators and do not sit back and wait on God to tell us what to do or we will never do anything. I do not believe we actually audibly hear God, and certainly when we do bear fruit it is of the Spirit, but the Spirit of God is working in our own mind to motivate us and bring us to Him.
Luke 17:21 nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."
If we have the Spirit indwelling God is teaching US how to serve and obey Him, and that is by Him changing the way WE think and do things, making US into a "new man/woman."
Eph 4:24 And you should put on the new man, who according to God was created in righteousness and true holiness.
God is working in and through the elect for their benefit, for the chosen few He is teaching/preparing them to think and understand His will and THEY will do good works by the Spirit "in them," that is the process, that is how the elect learn by 'doing' the good works.
1Tim 6:11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness.
v. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
1Ti 6:17 Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy.
v. 18 Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share,
v. 19 storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
There is not a person alive or that ever lived or ever will live that would not commit that sin which leads to death, we know this because scripture tells us this, when it says.
1John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that
Now about this Scripture from the op, understand that particular Scripture is speaking of a "brother" or somebody that believers these truths, not everybody in the world. Now what I think that may be confusing is that people think that anybody called a "brother" is an elect... there is no way of knowing that. There are many that hear these truths and seem to embrace them, yet do not continue. There no way to say what happens with most that have come through here, but I do know of some that have gone on to a different understanding.
Mat 7:14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
v. 15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
I already mentioned the parable of the sower and the seed and how it indicates that most that accept these truths do not continue in them. I believe that is what this Scripture is speaking of, those who are being drawn away and deceived. Now it is true that the very elect will not be deceived. But it is mentioned in Scripture and who is to say if God may use that very process of somebody being swayed by deception, then being pulled back by another brother concerned for them, to teach them how subtle deception can be.
James 5:19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back,
v. 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Just giving you something to think about here.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I personally don’t see any important’s of worrying about anything in this life. The creation is not responsible for its self in any way, one has no say or control over their own life. If anyone feels differently and thinks they can control their life, then they have denied the very sovereignty of God, who they say they believe in.
If we have spiritual understanding, if we do anything that is honorable or that is good or that is right in God’s sight it is only by the grace of God we are able to do these things. All good things come from God and from God only. All honor and praise belong to our creator we call God who is our heavenly Father.
but the Spirit of God is working in our own mind to motivate us and bring us to Him.
Hi Kat,
God has complete sovereignty over all things, there is no getting around that fact. Whatever one is doing is a direct result of God’s intentions. No one gets to be a spectator, everyone is an active participant in Gods plan.
If we had free will then we could be a spectator but our will is subjected to Gods will and what God wills in our life, will come to pass.
Everything we do has been planed down to the smallest of detail and not one detail can be eluded.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.
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Okay Rick, that is a good basic premise to have... but we do not see the workings of God, that's why free will is so easy to believe, yet we few have come to see it's a totally false concept. Though God has what He wants us to be planned out, we are mostly unaware that what that is, it's only when we look back that we can usually see what He was doing with us.
The point I want to make is that yes there are causes that bring about what we do, we just don't see them, so we are operating from a perspective of "working out your own salvation with fear and trembling," even though it is "God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure" (Php 2:12-13).
We cannot be lackadaisical or too laid back, "Strive G75 to enter through the narrow gate" does not seem to be a laid back term He used there to me.
G75 agōnizomai - to struggle, literally (to compete for a prize), figuratively (to contend with an adversary), or generally (to endeavor to accomplish something): - fight, labor fervently, strive.
I guess I'm thinking we need to be careful not to have an attitude that's lukewarm, because we know what Christ said about that.
Rev 3:15 "'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot!
v. 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.
Anyway I just wanted to get across that we can't be unconcerned and just think God is doing this... yes He is, but we are "working out our own salvation" and have to "strive to enter through the narrow gate." As Ray said it...
"I’m going to show you today that “getting saved” is the hardest most difficult thing that any human being in the history of the universe will ever do. There is nothing harder than “getting saved”. Are you hearing me? It is the hardest thing any human being will ever do in all of eternity. It’s the ultimate hard task.
But, when you read the scriptures, it doesn’t sound that way."
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3849.0
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat,
You bring out some great points, however my awareness of God’s sovereignty is constantly on my mind.
What’s amazing to me is that I only came to this website as a result of a ( great fear ) of hell which I once believed in but no longer do.
I found much more here than I expected or maybe even wanted to. I believed it was me searching out the truth but through hind sight I can see how God used a false doctrine to instill a great fear in me which caused me to search out the truth.
You had mentioned not being lackadaisical, what I’m trying to understand, knowing that God is completely sovereign and that our will is completely subjected to His will, is it possible for anyone to be lackadaisical ? Or in other words can anyone thrwat Gods purpose or intentions ?
Before reading Rays papers I never understood these wonderful truths of just how much God really is in control, complete control, and I find comfort, security and peace of mind knowing these truths.
I discovered my entire life has been directed by God not me, I know that now, I realize everything I have ever experienced in my life came straight out from the council of God before the earth ever was.
When I read the word of God, I see many scriptures that are telling me what to do and how to do it, I have already concluded that whatever God is telling me to do, I can’t do it for the life of me.
Although I can’t do God’s will for the life of me His will is being done in me and through me because God determined what my life will be, where I’ll live and how far I’ll travel from where I live, what type of job I’ll have, who I’ll marry, etc. etc. before the foundation of the earth was ever laid.
I think when one understands the sovereignty of God ,the easier it is to understand that believing in free will is a false belief but its God who determines who will believe they have free will and those who will come to the knowledge of knowing they have in no wise free will.
So then I conclude that whatever I’m doing must be the will of God, thus fulfilling His every intentions in my life without ever realizing it because I cannot detect God through my five senses.
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Alex and Kat! How can we have two different lakes off fire? LRay said there all the same...Gehenna fire is first and foremost for Christ's disciples (the Elect), and is first taught by Jesus on the sermon on the mount to His disciples. It is therefore not literal fire, nor is it everlasting fire. "Gehenna fire" (Matt. 18:9 is also called "eonian [NOT 'everlasting'] fire" in Matt. 18:8, and also in Matt. 25:41 where this eonian fire prepared for the devil and his ministers will be judged in the resurrection to Judgment in "The Lake of Fire" (Rev. 20:15 & 21:8). The Gehenna fire, eonian fire, lake of fire, are all the Judgment of God. These fires are all the same ONE fire that come from the same ONE God, and "Our [One] God is a consuming FIRE" (Heb. 12:29). So you guys really never read what I wrote! Now your saying opposite of what LRay teaches, that there are different fires that we go through! Then if that's the case we must have two different gods...Ray says the fire is the same fire and the scriptures say that God does not change....For I am the Lord, I change not; (Malachi 3:6 KJV)...Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (Hebrews 13:8 KJV)...so we know He's the same lake of fire!... Now alex said that the elect will not be harmed by the lake of fire! So alex are you saying that God is a respecter of person?.... The scriptures say different....Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (Acts 10:34 KJV)....For there is no respect of persons with God. (Romans 2:11 KJV)...when the elect become the lake of fire it does not change, it will still be Christ!!... Now that will take some discernment..... P.S the lake of fire isn't something to hurt you! It's to heal you! In Christ Mike
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To those of us whom God has called and chosen we see His sovereignty everyday of our lives and in every part of His creation. From the good to the evil. God is creator of all, Lord of all, and in control of all. We see demonstrated in our lives when we obey and bring forth good fruit just that its all God. Even before we bring forth good fruit it is all God. We are His workmanship. When we have a desire, a hunger, like a fire, to draw near to God as much as humanly possible, this is God! When we desire to know Him above all things. People often asked ray in emails (I should know, I was one of those people once upon a time, nothing more than a boy back then), and even in the studies he did, how do we overcome sin in our lives? Ray talked about coming to a place where we get so sick of doing a particular sin that it literally nauseates us to think about it (Sin should not reign in us). Of course, this could not happen without God bringing us to that place and ray also made that point; nevertheless, when God puts that desire in us to stop wanting to sin, even though we can't, when He puts that desire in us to stop sinning, when He puts that desire in us to want to obey Him, When He puts that desire in us to obey Him, even though we can't of our own selves, we see God "working in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure." The purpose of all the admonishments and warnings against becoming complacent is because none of us know what God's plan is. Yes, no one can go against God's plan, His intention, His purpose, and almost all go against His will daily, and yes this is all of God, but because 'you oh man' know not what is on the morrow, you cannot afford to become complacent, not if you want to win the prize. If you want to overcome. If you want to rule with Him. If you want to reign. If you walk after Him and obey Him, this is His power being made manifest in your life. If you become complacent and do not, cannot, will not obey Him, this too is His doing (For faith is a gift and what have you that you did not receive?). Now, when we sin, it is not God who makes us sin, but we are drawn away of our own lusts which begin in the heart but because the creation was subject to vanity through reason of Him, God is responsible. He created us with weak hearts and it takes the power of God to do good. So as Paul would say, "who are you, oh man, that responds to God? Shall the thing that is created be more than its creator? Therefor it is not of him that willith nor of him that goeth but of God who shows mercy." So you run a race knowing only one can win it. You set aside every weight and you strive to enter the narrow gate because you don't know what God has planned for your life. You don't know if you will overcome but if you've come this far in your life its because God has put these things on your heart and that is a very good thing!! If you strive to enter the narrow gate its because of God. So do not become lukewarm! Though it is not possible for the elect to be deceived or lost, you don't know who the elect are, you don't know if that is you! So run!! Run! Buy the whole field and sell everything you have. Do not slumber, don't let the Lord return and find you fast asleep at the watch. Make sure your lamp is burning bright, don't forget the oil! Study to show thyself approved! This is why the apostles where always teaching the saints and admonishing them. The encouragement and uplifting they showed for one another is a tremendous example of how we should encourage each other also. How we should treat fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Those called and chosen by God. We 'agape' the world. We let God sort the it out and we don't return evil with evil giving place for the vengeance of God. We overcome evil with good for God is our defense; but, we 'phileo' our brothers and sisters in Christ.
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Romans 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Romans 12:7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Romans 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
Romans 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
Romans 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
Romans 12:11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
Romans 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
Romans 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
Romans 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
Romans 12:15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
Romans 12:16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Romans 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
1 Cor. 1:1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
1 Cor. 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
1 Cor. 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
1 Cor. 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
1 Cor. 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
1 Cor. 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1 Cor. 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 16:13 Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.
1 Cor 16:14 Let all your things be done with charity.
1 Cor 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)
1 Cor 16:16 That ye submit yourselves unto such, and to every one that helpeth with us, and laboureth.
1 Cor 16:17 I am glad of the coming of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus: for that which was lacking on your part they have supplied.
1 Cor 16:18 For they have refreshed my spirit and yours: therefore acknowledge ye them that are such.
1 Cor 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.
1 Cor 16:20 All the brethren greet you. Greet ye one another with an holy kiss.
1 Cor 16:21 The salutation of me Paul with mine own hand.
1 Cor 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.
1 Cor 16:23 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
1 Cor 16:24 My love be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen.
Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Ephesians 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Ephesians 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Ephesians 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Ephesians 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Ephesians 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Ephesians 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Ephesians 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Ephesians 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Ephesians 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Ephesians 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
Ephesians 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you
Now these things could continue... but I suppose this post has become rather long and will grow legs and walk away if I give it anymore life! So I will end it here. I will only add that the parable of the talents that Christ taught is very reminiscent for me of becoming lukewarm and complacent (Matthew 25:14-30) even calling the servant "slothful."
All the glory and honor to God. "Ye will know them by their fruit."
God bless,
Alex
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Now alex this one you really have to understand that every mans work, means every mans work!!!
Well Mike I believe your indication is that the elect must be judged in the Lake of fire if/because 'every' man's work is to be judged there. Well there are Scripture that state there will be a 'separation' at Christ's coming/return, where He will bring a few into the kingdom as spiritual beings that serve with Him in His reign over the world for the next age.
Mat 25:33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
v. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting (eonian, CLV; age-abiding, Rotherham) fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
It's every or all of the rest of the people "great and small" that go to the Lake of fire, because the elect are now part of the kingdom ruling/judging with Christ.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;
v. 12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls--according to their works;
v. 13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;
v. 14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;
v. 15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.
So as you can see by this Scripture that "every" is a relative term for those that are still physical/goats. All do have to be judged and the elect have already been during their physical lifetime, as some of the Scripture you posted indicate, that was there 'second death' in fire, but not the lake of fire.
P.S alex , Jesus is the lake of fire, are God is a consuming FIRE... In Christ Mike
Mike, Yes of course Jesus is the Lake of fire, but the elect will have joined with Him and they will be sons of God and Christ will do the judging through them "or know ye not that, the saints, shall judge the world?" (1Cor 6:2). Here is where Ray expressly states that the elect are 'the' lake of fire with Christ.
http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html --------------------------
"…they were judged every man according to their works," and "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE" (Rev. 20:13 & 15).
Therefore, we, the Saints, the Body of Christ, the consuming fire ministers of God, the saviours of Mt. Zion, the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, along with our Head, Jesus Christ, also ARE THE LAKE OF FIRE!
THERE IS NO LITERAL LAKE, AND THERE IS NO LITERAL FIRE. Jesus Christ and His Body of Saints ARE THE LAKE OF JUDGING, PURIFYING, CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!!
The lake of fire is a metaphor written in symbols that stand for what is being symbolized, not the symbols themselves. The lake of fire is composed of Jesus Christ the Judge of the world, Christ’s divine spiritual fire and brimstone, and the Sons of God who are the body of Christ who are also FLAMES OF FIRE (Heb. 1:7).
And the whole world will be judged BY US! After death, all the dead will be resurrected, they will all be judged, they will have to pass through the purifying lake of fire, they will have to PASS THROUGH US! WE will be their judge along with our Lord.
"Know ye not that the SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD?"
And so, the GREAT SEA OF HUMANITY will be judged in the safety and security of the LAKE OF SAINTS!
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi Kat! Are you saying that once your called and chosen you just sit back and relax and wait for the resurrection and that's when you will be made Christ like? That's what it's sounds like your saying! That's what the church does, they just wait because Jesus has done it all. Is this just another church? Jesus doesn't come to the elect and do a work,I don't think that's the way it goes. If Jesus calls you then chooses you I think when He comes to you, He is still a consuming fire! The lake of fire, He's doing a Circumsizion of the heart! I think everything I said is in line with what LRay teaches and what the bible tells us!! I am saying the same thing Lray says! You are either in the fire now or your in the fire after the resurrection! I don't care what fire it is, it is all the same,it is CHRIST...!!
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We are all guilty and MUST die (spiritually)John 12:25
"all full blown sin leads to/is a death sentence.
I believe the sin not leading to death is when one "wanders"from the truth after being reborn (spiritually)... Peter wandered Paul "brought" him back
We are also instructed to come back to our "senses"
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Hi Kat! Are you saying that once your called and chosen you just sit back and relax and wait for the resurrection and that's when you will be made Christ like? That's what it's sounds like your saying! That's what the church does, they just wait because Jesus has done it all. Is this just another church? Jesus doesn't come to the elect and do a work,I don't think that's the way it goes. If Jesus calls you then chooses you I think when He comes to you, He is still a consuming fire! The lake of fire, He's doing a Circumsizion of the heart! I think everything I said is in line with what LRay teaches and what the bible tells us!! I am saying the same thing Lray says! You are either in the fire now or your in the fire after the resurrection! I don't care what fire it is, it is all the same,it is CHRIST...!!
You must not read many of my posts if that's what you think I was saying....
So you guys really never read what I wrote!
I most certainly did.
How can we have two different lakes off fire? ...
Now your saying opposite of what LRay teaches, that there are different fires that we go through! Then if that's the case we must have two different gods...
Heb 12:29 "For our God is a consuming fire."
As Christ is one with the Father, He is also this "consuming fire" and that is where the judgment on the house of God comes from now in this age. When the elect join with Christ when He returns, they also will become one with God and be a "consuming fire" and that will become the lake of fire that judges the world in the next age.
Now alex said that the elect will not be harmed by the lake of fire! So alex are you saying that God is a respecter of person?....
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Rev 2:11 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." '
http://bible-truths.com/lake5.html ---------------------------
WE ARE GOD’S BUILDING
In what "certain ways" are we "like" God’s "building?"
"Know ye not that YE [that’s us] ARE the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells IN YOU" (I Cor. 3:16). "For ye are the temple of the living God…" II Cor. 6:16).
Notice that "ye are the temple of God" is another metaphor. In what certain ways are we like the temple of God? Answer:
"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief corner stone; in Whom ALL THE BUILDING fitly framed together grows unto AN HOLY TEMPLE in the Lord: In Whom YE [that's us again] ALSO ARE BUILDED TOGETHER for an habitation of God through the Spirit" (Eph. 2:19:23).
The Lord of heaven and earth "dwells not in temples made with hands" (Acts 17:24). Where does God then dwell? Are you ready for this? This is heavy stuff!
"If a man love Me, He will keep My words: and my Father will love him, and WE [both Jesus Christ AND His Father] WILL COME UNTO HIM [this is US if we love God], AND MADE OUR ABODE [our home] WITH HIM" (John 14:23)! WOW!
http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html --------------------------
GOD’S MINISTERS ARE FLAMES OF FIRE
I showed you earlier that Jesus Christ is not only IN the lake of fire, He IS THE LAKE OF FIRE. He is the Divinity in this spiritual fire.
Ponder this:
Like Christ, we too are raised with a "SPIRITUAL body" (I Cor. 15:44).
We are in fact called, "the BODY of Christ" (Eph. 1:23).
We will literally "be LIKE Him [Christ]" (I John 3:2).
God will make us into "ministers [of] FLAMING FIRE" (Psalm 104:4).
We too then will be like our God, "a CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
God promises us that, "…the saints shall JUDGE THE WORLD…" and "we shall JUDGE ANGELS" (I Cor. 6:2-3)!
God tells us WHERE this judgment will take place:
"…they were judged every man according to their works," and "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE" (Rev. 20:13 & 15).
Therefore, we, the Saints, the Body of Christ, the consuming fire ministers of God, the saviours of Mt. Zion, the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, along with our Head, Jesus Christ, also ARE THE LAKE OF FIRE!
THERE IS NO LITERAL LAKE, AND THERE IS NO LITERAL FIRE. Jesus Christ and His Body of Saints ARE THE LAKE OF JUDGING, PURIFYING, CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!!
The lake of fire is a metaphor written in symbols that stand for what is being symbolized, not the symbols themselves. The lake of fire is composed of Jesus Christ the Judge of the world, Christ’s divine spiritual fire and brimstone, and the Sons of God who are the body of Christ who are also FLAMES OF FIRE (Heb. 1:7).
And the whole world will be judged BY US! After death, all the dead will be resurrected, they will all be judged, they will have to pass through the purifying lake of fire, they will have to PASS THROUGH US! WE will be their judge along with our Lord.
"Know ye not that the SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD?"
And so, the GREAT SEA OF HUMANITY will be judged in the safety and security of the LAKE OF SAINTS!
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The lake of fire is not in this age, it is in the next age, because it is symbolically formed by Christ and the elect, they are the lake, they are the temple, they are New Jerusalem - the kingdom coming down with Christ when He returns.
Rev 21:2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
The elect will judge the world by the consuming Holy Spirit/fire of God in them. Just like Christ represents the Father perfectly, we will represent Christ perfectly in the next age... it's all by/from God the Father.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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We are all guilty and MUST die (spiritually)John 12:25
"all full blown sin leads to/is a death sentence.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?
also did you mean ( carnal ) not ( spiritual )
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We are all guilty and MUST die (spiritually)John 12:25
"all full blown sin leads to/is a death sentence.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?
also did you mean ( carnal ) not ( spiritual )
No I meant all must die (to the flesh) ....our own understanding,CARNAL WAYS,AND THOUGHTS
otherwise one cannot live - spirit BEGETS spirit
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Hello Ian,
Say, everyone has one issue or another in this life, so at the time of ones death, they will still have some issue remaining, now we know that when Christ returns those who are still alive on earth will still have some issue but will be change in the twinkling of and eye.
Does that change include losing any and all carnality and becoming completely spiritual , not that being completely spiritual means being sin free because we also know Satan is spiritual but has no righteousness in him.
Now if your answer is yes we lose all carnality but however we are sin free unlike Satan then Christ must have given those a new heart instantly and now no longer desires to sin.
Now that they have a new heart but are left with the memory of an experience of good and evil have now become the image of God.
Now look at Adam and Eve, they were completely carnal minded but had not really sinned until they stretch forth their hand and did eat from the tree of good and evil. My point is one can learn to do right but as long as we are carnal minded the potential to sin is always with us.
Unless God gives us a new heart it matter not how much we learn to do righteousness because again the potential to sin remains.
old heart = bad boy.....new heart = good boy
What do you say to these things.
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You may or may not understand ....sin is carnality, which is death.It is Blasphemy to construe spirit with Flesh (carnal) interpretation.
Jesus said MY Words are SPIRIT and they are Life so any other interpretation of his word is DEATH.
By interpreting his words as physical/literal we bring him down to carnal level. Rom 10:6 and Gen 44v22
I believe that is why the miracle of sight is needed, so just as the blind man prayed, begged "open my eyes that i may see" we need to do likewise
In the case of those elected/chosen ? Yes... Now is the transformation/now is salvation albeit still a work in progress - Matt 16 vs 28.
Let me put it this way you cannot/ will not be able to resist the holy Spirit (those that are chosen), those not yet chosen ... remain "stiff necked"
Your thoughts will change you wont know how...your attitude, your way of living and you will not have a clue as to what happened (He gives his glory to no one, nor will you be able to boast in this work) then, looking back over what you have lived you will see why what and when all this happened. the concerns and things of this present world will become "strangely dim" (this is dying) I believe.
There are instances where I believe we can "grieve" the Holy Spirit...this will bring about conviction not condemnation.This is ,once again I believe, a sin not leading to death (as one is already dead to the things of this place)
Without Judging, I believe the "church" has got the cart before the horse so to speak, what they are saying and teaching re confessing the word and it coming to pass is truth, but they have not the power/authority to use the word, as the Spirit of truth has not been revealed in them yet so they are kinda "jumping the fence" instead of entering by the narrow gate.
Acts 19v15
This authority and the power of his resurrection, comes thru/by suffering and (dying)
Once again I don't know if Ray has spoken on these things, this is my testimony
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Say, everyone has one issue or another in this life, so at the time of ones death, they will still have some issue remaining, now we know that when Christ returns those who are still alive on earth will still have some issue but will be change in the twinkling of and eye.
Does that change include losing any and all carnality and becoming completely spiritual , not that being completely spiritual means being sin free because we also know Satan is spiritual but has no righteousness in him.
The elect upon resurrection will join Christ in the air... they will not fly up there, they will be born into the kingdom, changed and given glorious Spirit bodies "...that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6) and they will rise up to join with Christ, who is Spirit... think about how Christ was after His resurrection.
1Thess 4:17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
v. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten (guarantee/earnest 2Cor 1:22; 5:5 - promise Heb 9:15; 2Tim 1:1) us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
v. 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
To become "incorruptible" - that cannot be bribed; inflexibly, just and upright; and "undefiled" - pure at resurrection, then they will become one with God, they will no longer be subject to the flesh. That certainly means they will be completely spiritual and totally free from sin, that's the only way they could rule with Christ. That process has/must already start in this life, the elect are prepared now and will be ready for the first resurrection.
Now if your answer is yes we lose all carnality but however we are sin free unlike Satan then Christ must have given those a new heart instantly and now no longer desires to sin.
Now that they have a new heart but are left with the memory of an experience of good and evil have now become the image of God.
Now look at Adam and Eve, they were completely carnal minded but had not really sinned until they stretch forth their hand and did eat from the tree of good and evil. My point is one can learn to do right but as long as we are carnal minded the potential to sin is always with us.
Unless God gives us a new heart it matter not how much we learn to do righteousness because again the potential to sin remains.
old heart = bad boy.....new heart = good boy
What do you say to these things.
Those that are begotten and given the promise/earnest/guarantee in this life, who have received the Spirit indwelling, will begin the process of becoming a new man/woman now. The Spirit indwelling circumcises heart and renews the spirit/mind/heart, so the person is most certainly changed into a new creature/creation (Gal 6:15).
2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Eph 4:23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
v. 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
When the Spirit is indwelling sin is no longer held against the elect, they belong to Christ (Gal 3:29; 2Cor 10:7). Though the elect are still in the flesh now and do sin, but it does not have dominion over them (Rom 6:14), and all their sins have already been covered by the sacrifice of Christ Jesus.
Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
v. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
v. 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
1John 2:12 I write to you, little children, Because your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake.
Rom 4:7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
v. 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."
1John 3:5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away sins; and in Him is no sin.
v.6 Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither knoweth Him.
v. 9 Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because His seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Let's end with that.
Somehow I feel like I am being led through a maze in this thread. Seems to me to have started with a theological assumption and continued through several iterations of agenda. That's enough.