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=> Off Topic Discussions => Topic started by: Musterseed on February 25, 2018, 12:50:04 PM
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Hello everyone,
Hope you are all well. I just came across a trailer of a movie coming out on March 23 about the Apostle Paul. Are any of you going to see it? Can’t get much from a trailer but I’m curious about
it and haven’t been to a movie in years so I think I will go. If I don’t like the movie , I know I will
enjoy the popcorn . May God Bless .In Christ,,,Pamela
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I will not watch that movie just like I never watch any biblical themed movies.
The reason is the producers of those movies are ignorant of Scriptural Truths.
By the grace of God, I do not allow Scriptural lies to enter my mind. The Great God protects me from Satan's lies and false teachings. I am grateful to God for this gift. Jesus freed me from the prison of religion lies and the false church years ago. I never take the freedom He gave me for granted.
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I’m taking your advise John and not going. I have never seen the Passion of Christ or
any other so called Religious movies so why start now, but more than that ,it is not being
obedient to Christ’s teachings.
2 Corth. 7:1
Therefore since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything
that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting Holiness out of reverence for God.
Whew,,, Thanks John for bringing me back to reality, I think Satan was trying to have me for lunch.
What was I thinking? I know these movies scripts are full of lies and free will doctrines.
In Christ,,,,Pamela 🙂
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Hi Pamela,
I understand your concerns and believe you should make your own choices about what you watch.
It can be a learning experience, just as being in a so called cult ? like Worldwide Church of God can be.
If I attended such a showing I would be looking for any errors that my understanding of scripture would
lead me to observe and taking mental notes. That is one way I have been learning over the years.
However as John noted it can be deceptive because the movie people have the means to GRAB your
attention in the midst of all the powerful images and the music and plant ideas in your mind that you
may later have wished weren't there. So called great preachers do the same.
Who knows how God may use the experience in your life.
Just remember it is a movie, it is fiction embellished to attract a larger audience and make money.
Indiana bob :D
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Hello Ibob
If I were to make my own choices I would be in deep trouble.😂 Thank God for intervening.
I think I was temped by the popcorn😂 you said” It is fiction embellished to attract a larger
audience and make money “. You are so right and I will not contribute to it. Ok, I’m back
to my senses now. Thanks be to Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Saviour who stopped me in my
tracks. Thanks Ibob, have a wonderful day.
❤️ Pamela
PS,, I think this movie will be like everything else I see, lots of deception.Paul didn’t say
everything will get worse and worse for no reason..and boy is it.
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Perhaps there will be good and evil in the movie.. The mature in Christ will discern.
Some will be led further astray by the movie.. some will be called through the movie.
God will accomplish His will in each.
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Well stated Largeli,
I agree.
Bob
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You are overreacting, my friends. This movie is going to portray the life of Paul, not the theology of Paul. It's not going to be a film which (incorrectly) analyzes the meaty doctrines of Romans. Who would want to go see that? But the story of Paul as related in Acts is very exciting indeed--a persecutor of Christians, a dramatic conversion, missionary journeys, shipwreck, imprisonment, etc. Those elements make for a film people would want to see.
JFK, if you're so sure of your freedom from religious lies, why does this film prompt such a reaction from you? Do you really think you're going to get poisoned and pulled away from the truth just by watching a movie about Paul's life story? Do you think the movie is going to preach about hellfire and man's free will, and you will get sucked back into that way of thinking?
One time when I was visiting two brothers from this forum, we watched some episodes of a television series which told Bible stories. They were stories; they were historical, not theological, like this new film about Paul. We enjoyed watching them and discussing them afterward. We weren't watching them to gain great spiritual insights; nor were we watching them to point out all the theological errors and make fun of them. We were just enjoying the show, because we like history and we like the Bible.
Here is the synopsis of the Paul film, from Wikipedia:
The setting is Mamertine Prison in Rome where Paul has been imprisoned because he has been deemed a threat to the Roman Empire. Emperor Nero has sentenced him to death. Paul's long journey to this place has been eventful. At one time—as Saul—he persecuted Christians relentlessly. And then he converted to Christianity. That is when Paul became the persecuted. His path has involved degradation, torture and shipwreck. At Mamertine he interacts with his jailer, Mauritius, and Luke, the apostle. Mauritius is curious about Paul and seeks to learn how this one man can have such a profound effect on the empire. Luke, his dutiful caretaker, takes this opportunity to write his Gospel. Meanwhile the infamous persecution of the Christians under Nero is in full effect. As the time draws near to the date of his execution, Paul worries if God will forgive him for his sins.
The part at the end is the only thing that can be theologically objectionable. Call it one of "Satan's lies and false teachings" if you wish, but I think we should lighten up. I don't think the goal of the producers is to make people think God won't forgive them. I think the goal is to tell a good story and make money.
I didn't know about this movie before, but I'm definitely interested in seeing it now. 8)
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BINGO Jesse!
Spiratual wisdom and decernment are such powerful gifts from God. Quiet freeing actually.
Makes me think of God putting good and evil into the same tree, now that's some colossal wisdom there.
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Perhaps there will be good and evil in the movie.. The mature in Christ will discern.
Some will be led further astray by the movie.. some will be called through the movie.
God will accomplish His will in each.
Some more wisdom shining through☺
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You are overreacting, my friends. This movie is going to portray the life of Paul, not the theology of Paul. It's not going to be a film which (incorrectly) analyzes the meaty doctrines of Romans. Who would want to go see that? But the story of Paul as related in Acts is very exciting indeed--a persecutor of Christians, a dramatic conversion, missionary journeys, shipwreck, imprisonment, etc. Those elements make for a film people would want to see.
JFK, if you're so sure of your freedom from religious lies, why does this film prompt such a reaction from you? Do you really think you're going to get poisoned and pulled away from the truth just by watching a movie about Paul's life story? Do you think the movie is going to preach about hellfire and man's free will, and you will get sucked back into that way of thinking?
One time when I was visiting two brothers from this forum, we watched some episodes of a television series which told Bible stories. They were stories; they were historical, not theological, like this new film about Paul. We enjoyed watching them and discussing them afterward. We weren't watching them to gain great spiritual insights; nor were we watching them to point out all the theological errors and make fun of them. We were just enjoying the show, because we like history and we like the Bible.
Here is the synopsis of the Paul film, from Wikipedia:
The setting is Mamertine Prison in Rome where Paul has been imprisoned because he has been deemed a threat to the Roman Empire. Emperor Nero has sentenced him to death. Paul's long journey to this place has been eventful. At one time—as Saul—he persecuted Christians relentlessly. And then he converted to Christianity. That is when Paul became the persecuted. His path has involved degradation, torture and shipwreck. At Mamertine he interacts with his jailer, Mauritius, and Luke, the apostle. Mauritius is curious about Paul and seeks to learn how this one man can have such a profound effect on the empire. Luke, his dutiful caretaker, takes this opportunity to write his Gospel. Meanwhile the infamous persecution of the Christians under Nero is in full effect. As the time draws near to the date of his execution, Paul worries if God will forgive him for his sins.
The part at the end is the only thing that can be theologically objectionable. Call it one of "Satan's lies and false teachings" if you wish, but I think we should lighten up. I don't think the goal of the producers is to make people think God won't forgive them. I think the goal is to tell a good story and make money.
I didn't know about this movie before, but I'm definitely interested in seeing it now. 8)
Jesse,
Pamela asked a question if anyone was going to watch the movie.
I gave her an honest answer. Why does that upset you?
All that we know about Paul comes from the Scriptures. Any deviation in the movie about Paul then is a lie.
Jesus tells us that Satan is a liar and the Father of lies. I believe Jesus.
By the Power of the Spirit, I do not allow Satan or his lies to enter my mind. Am I going to fast for you? I can see the stitches on the fast balls he sends my way.
Again, why does my answer to Pamela's question bother you so? Are you possibly overreacting?
I have no power over anyone as to what they think or do. But neither do you. There is no free will. You will do what forces will lead you to do over which you have no control.
Enjoy your movie. Enjoy the lesson.
My advice, if you want to know about Paul, and most importantly about the Truths he was led to teach, is to study the Scriptures.
John
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I agree with John. I understand the excitement and desire to see these things up on the screen. I know the feeling. But I also remember when the 2014 movie Noah, staring Russel Crowe, was released. There were numerous Christian groups who prescreened the movie and recommended that people go to see it even though it “strayed” from the original scriptural narrative because the writers took a great deal of “artistic license” to pump up the story. But that was supposed to be ok because (according to them) it might still bring some people to Christ. I watched it at someone’s house after it came out on DVD. It made me squirm with remorse. There was more truth and moral content contained in a Transformers movie than that piece of heretical garbage. As far as I’m concerned, never again.
Perhaps this movie will not be as over the top, but what is the difference? If it contains even a single added sentence of dialogue, it is no longer accurate. Not one jot or tittle.
Mike
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Howdy John (and Mike, and others),
It seems our difference of opinion comes from how we view the motives of the filmmakers. I think their motive is to make money. You seem to think their motive is akin to the false teachers of TBN who make money by knowingly swindling viewers. The filmmakers are out to make money by entertaining; they're not looking to make money by saying Give God [me] your money or people will go to Hell like some of the TBN preachers. They are not promising God will make you rich if you come to their movie, or that God will curse you if you don't. There is a big difference.
I think it is wrong to support fraudulent ministries, but I don't think there is anything wrong with supporting businesses who are "ignorant of Scriptural Truths". The producers of John Wayne films were probably ignorant of Scriptural truths too, but so what? (I know, I know, they weren't claiming to teach us the deep things of God; but neither are these people.) Maybe your barber is a Christian who believes in hellfire. So what? It's not a sin to give the man money to cut your hair. Maybe all the grocery stores in your town are supporters of gay rights. Are you going to stop eating?
For one of his conferences, Ray relied heavily on the books of an Orthodox Jew. That means that for a conference where Ray claimed we would be learning deep things that hardly anyone else knew, he was teaching us things he learned from a man who denies Jesus is the Messiah! Wow! Where was the sanctimonious vitriol then? I am not picking on Ray, I'm just pointing out the absurdity of looking for truth, or entertainment, or anything else, only from people who believe what we believe.
I'm not saying we all should go see the movie. If you don't want to see it, don't see it because you don't care about it, not because you think you're being more righteous than those of us who do see it.
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Proverb 16:9
A man’s heart plans his way.
But the Lord directs his steps.
Proverbs 16:2
All persons ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord.
Christianity is big business in politics,entertainment,sports, etc. These business people
have no problem peddling and perverting the word of God for profit and taking advantage
of people.
2 Corth. 2:17
For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God,
we speak in Christ in the sight of God.
Titus 1:11
They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things
they ought not to teach, and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
Matt 21: 13
My house shall be called a house of prayer but YE have made it a den of robbers.
Hebrews 5:14
But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice,have their senses trained to decern
good and evil.
Isaiah 7:15
He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good.
Only God directs my steps. Sincerely in Christ , Pamela
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Romans 14:14-22New International Version (NIV)
14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.
22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves.
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
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I watched the trailer. This movie is by Affirm Films which is faith-based and a division of Sony. And according to the trailer, Paul has doubts about his own salvation—will he be forgiven for his sins when he was Saul. That goes directly against scripture—Paul’s knowledge of universal reconciliation.
Here is an excerpt from the Catholic Herald by Mark Pattison posted Thursday, 22 Feb 2018 :
With the new movie “Paul, Apostle of Christ,” Eric Groth, one of the film’s executive producers, said, “it was real important to tell the story of God’s mercy.”
“His message of love and life and mercy is so important for us today,” Groth said to an invitation-only audience of about 60 at an advance screening of the film at the St John Paul II National Shrine in Washington.
Groth is head of ODB Productions; he said the initials stand for “Outside Da Box.” The company has made, by his estimate, about 250 short films for Catholic religious education programmes, and a series of 15 shorts based on each of the 15 sections of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
“All I wanted to do (in college) was play baseball. Then the Lord moved my heart,” Groth said. In addition to the film shorts, he also produced “Full of Grace,” about Jesus’s mother, Mary, helping repair the fractures that developed in the early Church. It was written and directed by Andrew Hyatt, who had the same two jobs on “Paul, Apostle of Christ.”
He gave credit to Sony Pictures for its willingness to go out on a limb with the movie. “They stretched partnering with a Catholic organisation, they stretched in the idea, they stretched in the screening schedule,” which had started a few months before its March 23 premiere, Groth said. A constant comment he said he had received from preview audiences was that the film was “imbued with Scripture without it having been read to them.”
I don’t question the sincerity of those involved, but nevertheless It's not just about money. It’s about preaching. And I have no doubt that it will be getting a big thumbs up from TBN and the like.
Mike
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My personal experience may or may not shed some light on this. I had come out of the church, that had so enslaved and brainwahed me, I could hardly think for myself anymore. I was admonished often, not to read any other religious material or I would be judged, and condemned an apostate. I was to be no part of the world, in ways that were impossible to adhere to. Now I find myself without God or friends, living in a world I'm no part of, and God let me stew in that a bit.
One day, out of the blue I thought of the movie, Passion of The Christ, this was 2015, the movie had been out for a long time, but I had never seen it. It wasn't allowed in my religion, but now I could consider it. I decided against it, because I knew the crusifiction scene would be to difficult for me to get through. However, thoughts of God the father's suffering crept in, and then the suffering Jesus endured. I questioned myself, how could I turn my back on the reality of that sacrifice, because I was weak and selfish. I also considered the possibility, not watching it might have more to do with keeping God at a distance in my life at that time.
I talked to God often about it, finally making a commitment to him, to watch it out of respect and gratitude, for the enormous sacrifice he had made for me.
The outcome was an explosive change within me. I understood for the first time in my life, the love of God. That's a Huge personal revelation in anyone's life. It was then I wanted to find and know this God, the God of love. No more man, deciding what I could read, watch or do, it would be between me and God, as it should be.
A few days later, I earnestly asked God to show me his truth, and within seconds I was reading Ray's teachings, and I continue to do so.
Was this God, using this oh so un-Godly means to awaken me?
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A man once told me that God can speak to us through a door post or a news paper.
That was back in my hell, fire and brimstone days so, I let him have a few of my stupid choice words of no understanding to set him straight about that kind of unscriptural bologna he was spewing!
A few of my favorite movies -
The Patriot
Gladiator
Kingdom of Heaven
Remember the Titans
Brave Heart
My wife and I will most likely wait for the movie about Paul to come out on Red Box and then we will rent it.
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Pamela as you can see there are many different opinions among us.
Ultimately I think it wise to have faith in the spirit of God inside you and not allow any man(kind) to gain influence over your own God given ability to discern between good and evil. You’ve heard some say that they were freed from the lies of religion.. but in my own experience with religion it wasn’t the lies or false doctrines that imprisoned me.. the church I went to was pretty open ended with their doctrines. The prison of religion for me, had more to do with a man(kind) desiring to have influence over my own perception of right and wrong/good and evil.
Heb 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
My experience of religion was being subjected to those who desired to impose their unrighteous judgement of good and evil on me. My freedom from religion was God empowering me to discern good and evil for myself, by the spirit He placed inside me.
1 John 2:27
These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him
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Hi Largeli
What makes you think I don’t have faith in the Spirit of God inside me and that I am allowing
man(kind) to gain influence over my own God given ability to decern between good and evil.?
Sincerely Pamela
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This is my reason for not going to see this movie, decern for yourselves
Actor who plays Luke who also played Jesus in Passion and will again play Jesus in the
next one.
GoogleYouTube
JimCaviezel”Paul,Apostle of Christ SLS18
Please listen to all of it.
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I watched the YouTube video, Pamela. And here is what came to mind:
Matthew 15:9 'And they revere me in vain while they teach the doctrines of the commandments of man.'
And that is why I won't go to see this movie, either. My opinion.
Mike
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Very interesting comments from everyone. Seeing a movie for whatever reason is a personal thing, and I don't believe it has anything to do with being converted or righteous. It may educate some. My own preference is not to go to those kinds of movies because they would make me cringe occasionally because of the inability of movie makers to really represent the truth. A movie can not do justice in any way shape or form to God's Word. I stay away because it bothers me to see them TRY to represent the stories in the bible. After all, isn't the motivation of these film makers to make money?
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This is my reason for not going to see this movie, decern for yourselves
Actor who plays Luke who also played Jesus in Passion and will again play Jesus in the
next one.
GoogleYouTube
JimCaviezel”Paul,Apostle of Christ SLS18
Please listen to all of it.
Thank you for sharing this Pamela.
That was one of the most blatent, in your face display of self importance, I've ever witnessed.
I think he's starting to believe he is Christ himself. He was 33 when he played Jesus, he was struck by lightening, almost died of hypothermia, as a result, had open heart surgery, and most importantly, dislocated his shoulder just as Jesus did.
God is certainly accomplishing great and wonderous things in the earth right now, lift up your heads, your deliverence is near.
I'm left with one thought...who can know the elevated wisdom of God, in using evil for his good.
Romans 11:33: "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"
Having my eyes opened, makes it clear to me, seeing the movie would have no benifit in my life at this time, even though others might, if it is Gods will for them.
Most importantly Pamela, knowing you as I do, I should have never doubted your judgment or decision, regarding this movie. I can only pray for forgiveness.
Maybe applying this scripture, would simplify our understanding of God's will for us.
Corinthians 10:31 which says, “So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.”
When I watched the Passion of The Chrst, I believed with all my heart, I was doing it for his glory, It hurt allot to face that much suffering. I wouldn't be able to see this movie with the attitude of glorifying.
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I must be looking up the wrong you tube video.
I'll see it - not in the theater but I'll see it. I usually gain something from movies like this and I know what I can see and what I can't see .
About ten years ago I was part of a conference and Jim Caviezel was one of the speakers- this is before I knew anything about the teachings of bible truths. And I remember at the time thinking how sad he was. He's adopted children from China with cancer- he tries to live out his faith. I found him to be earnest and self effacing .
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What we are seeing discussed here is the desire to experience something “more” than what can be read in Scripture—the desire to actually have a front row seat to the events. I know the feeling; I have it, too. It is a natural temptation… I would love to see this movie. But… Herein lies my problem. I believe it really does fall under the umbrella of a true temptation. And I already know, just from watching the trailer, how powerful a temptation it can be. But I also know, just from watching that trailer, just how much this movie strays from the truth. It matters not one bit how well intentioned the writers, actors, and producers may be. It matters not one bit how good a person Jim Caviezel may or may not be. Billy Graham was a good man by human standards, too. So, what? This movie is a Catholic version of Paul full of made up dialog and dogma which is: Quote, “imbued with Scripture without it having been read to them.” And that Scripture is going to be surrounded with all kinds of made up dialog and dogma. I don’t condemn anyone for going to see the movie; you will do whatever you are moved to do. Perhaps it may be simple curiosity. But, personally, I don’t see the point in paying to see something that I know is tainted, just because it may stir my adrenaline into a false feeling of worship no different than those tear driven arm wavers at a Billy Graham crusade. All the while, I’ll have to pick out the “good stuff” from the "bad," and say that’s ok because I know better. No, it's not ok because I do know better.
My opinion.
Mike
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I must be looking up the wrong you tube video.
I'll see it - not in the theater but I'll see it. I usually gain something from movies like this and I know what I can see and what I can't see .
About ten years ago I was part of a conference and Jim Caviezel was one of the speakers- this is before I knew anything about the teachings of bible truths. And I remember at the time thinking how sad he was. He's adopted children from China with cancer- he tries to live out his faith. I found him to be earnest and self effacing .
Hi friend Octoberose,
Your comment is fine with me and I suppose that I could think the same.
One addition just for something to consider. No criticism of any previous thoughts...
Jim also plays a part in the TV drama "Person of Interest" in which he coolly and without emotion executes criminals that slip through the hands of regular law enforcement. All of this while taking instructions from a secret computer that sees through posted street cameras and listens to telephone calls of citizens who according to the computer's programming may be in trouble with other persons or the law.
I have watched the program a few times during it's four seasons on TV, but I don't recommend it for the gullible who may put too much stock in the wisdom of computers programmed by a government functionary. ::)
So, should we judge Mr. Caviezel's sincerity based on the type of movie scripts he accepts or does it even matter since it is just a job?
I wonder about this with all actors and producers. After all it is mythical fiction that is produced to entertain us as opposed to real life and yet I am reminded of the old saying "truth is stranger than fiction". (smile)
We on the forum are very blessed to be able to see through much of this fiction and become enlightened by the real truth.
Indiana bob
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I'm going to see it, and suggest to Christian friends that have believed the commands of men, rather than God to hold a fact checking of the entire movie. I look it as an opportunity for good. Besides the popcorn is calling me.
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I'm going to see it, and suggest to Christian friends that have believed the commands of men, rather than God to hold a fact checking of the entire movie. I look it as an opportunity for good. Besides the popcorn is calling me.
Good point Tim. Home made popped corn is just not the same as good ole hot movie popped corn, especially during the car chase or the cowboys riding after a herd of stampeding cattle. :D
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Indianabob, I wonder about those things too. :-\
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God has recently been working in my life with regard to the things I allow into my own life, such as what type of movies I see or the tv programs I watch....they all do influence us is some way or form.
For this reason I now try and apply Paul's words in my life:
The apostle Paul said, "Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable -- if anything is excellent or praiseworthy -- think about such things and the God of peace will be with you" (Philippians 4:8).
Some things cannot be unseen so it's better to not see it in the first place.
Heidi
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Some things cannot be unseen so it's better to not see it in the first place.
Are the elect to judge all things?
How could one make a righteous judgment if they refuse to see.. how can evil be discerned from good if it’s not first considered?
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Some things cannot be unseen so it's better to not see it in the first place.
Are the elect to judge all things?
How could one make a righteous judgment if they refuse to see.. how can evil be discerned from good if it’s not first considered?
One reason may be because they have already seen and considered.
I probably won't see the movie. First, because I hardly ever go to the movies and this one won't likely change that pattern. Second, because I've never really enjoyed movies based on bible-stories or characters. As "realistic" as Hollywood can sometimes make things, my own imagination is generally superior. I prefer the book. ;D
But I might see it, eventually, somehow and somewhere. Ray Smith had to read Bill Weisse's book in order to "critique" it. He was able to do that at that point in his "walk". We each need to consider ourselves.
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I agree Dave,
Each person is progressing at the pace that God has set for them.
We all will be judging all thing with Lord Jesus AFTER we are fully prepared and ready.
At this time, in this life we have no real idea of the responsibilities and challenges that will be set before us.
God knows how much we each can handle and inspires each of us according to His perfect will.
Indiana bob
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I agree Dave,
Each person is progressing at the pace that God has set for them.
We all will be judging all thing with Lord Jesus AFTER we are fully prepared and ready.
At this time, in this life we have no real idea of the responsibilities and challenges that will be set before us.
God knows how much we each can handle and inspires each of us according to His perfect will.
Indiana bob
Is this right bob? Is each person progressing? Or hasn’t God created vessels that are not to progress in this life.. some who’s purpose is to trip up/deceive/influence others on their walk and discourage them from discerning between good and evil for themselves? All part of His plan for each..
Is it even possible to progress at all without discerning between good and evil?
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Dear friend Largeli,
Your comment gives pause to my all encompassing statement.
You make a valid point.
I should not group all members of the forum together or even all humans together as if God was granting progress to all in this age.
After some thought I will defend myself just a little.
I used to belong to Worldwide church and observed the seventh day sabbath as well as the "Jewish" holy days and some of the commandments that Jesus observed during his time on earth. The challenges I faced with my family during that time were unnecessary for those who believe in grace as opposed to keeping the law, but of course I did not know any better until God opened my eyes. So it was after my eyes were opened that God began to grant me progress in the right direction.
I don't believe that God always sends deceivers to trip up those elect that God has called according to His purpose. My thought is that God allows His chosen to be drawn away by their own human weaknesses in order to "compel" them to recognize their limitations and weaknesses and to seek God's help and strengthening.
So in that situation God is like a good sports coach who tests a team member to show them their limitations and to help them recognize that no matter how strong and talented they think that they are they still NEED God and always will.
I hope that this response may better explain my understanding.
Correction of the moderators is welcome. Indiana bob
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Is it even possible to progress at all without discerning between good and evil?
Discerning BETWEEN good and evil is actually the easy part. It can be "done" by the heathen, the godless, and by any spiritual "minor".
Gen_2:16 And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Eating you may eat of every tree in the garden;
Gen_2:17 but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die.
The Knowledge of both GOOD and EVIL was in the fruit of the tree. There isn't the fruit of the knowledge of evil on one branch, and the fruit of the knowledge of good on the other. When Adam ate, he ate the knowledge of them both in the same fruit. You can't have one without the other.
Paul put it this way:
Heb_5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Both good and evil. Both.
This can't be done by the heathen, the godless, and by spiritual "minors". "Heb 5:13 ...for everyone partaking of milk is without experience in the Word of Righteousness, for he is an infant." They may "know" their milk is "good" and may even "know" that other "milk" is evil, but that's the limit of their "knowledge". And it's difficult at best to talk to them like you would "them that are of full age."
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Is it even possible to progress at all without discerning between good and evil?
Discerning BETWEEN good and evil is actually the easy part. It can be "done" by the heathen, the godless, and by any spiritual "minor".
Gen_2:16 And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Eating you may eat of every tree in the garden;
Gen_2:17 but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die.
The Knowledge of both GOOD and EVIL was in the fruit of the tree. There isn't the fruit of the knowledge of evil on one branch, and the fruit of the knowledge of good on the other. When Adam ate, he ate the knowledge of them both in the same fruit. You can't have one without the other.
Paul put it this way:
Heb_5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Both good and evil. Both.
This can't be done by the heathen, the godless, and by spiritual "minors". "Heb 5:13 ...for everyone partaking of milk is without experience in the Word of Righteousness, for he is an infant." They may "know" their milk is "good" and may even "know" that other "milk" is evil, but that's the limit of their "knowledge". And it's difficult at best to talk to them like you would "them that are of full age."
Bare with me Dave.. I know I’m missing something here..
You started by saying that discerning between good and evil can be done by the heathen, the godless, etc.. but then your last statement says that discerning both good and evil can’t be done by the heathen, etc..
It looks like you’re making a distinction between the words “between” and “both” but I don’t see how they are different in the sense of “discerning between/both good and evil”??
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It looks like I'm making that distinction because I am. I don't doubt the value of discerning between good and evil (remembering that the word "evil" carries no explicit moral connotation). Some people don't get that far. Understanding what an EVIL is and what a GOOD is is fine, though even that much takes the refining fire of God to perfect.
Can you name me one event, or situation, or condition that actually IS both Good and Evil? Or one that produces both good and evil? Or requires both good and evil? Scripture seems to me full of them, and so does life. These are waters too deep for minors. Minors want things cut and dried.
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It looks like I'm making that distinction because I am. I don't doubt the value of discerning between good and evil (remembering that the word "evil" carries no explicit moral connotation). Some people don't get that far. Understanding what an EVIL is and what a GOOD is is fine, though even that much takes the refining fire of God to perfect.
Can you name me one event, or situation, or condition that actually IS both Good and Evil? Or one that produces both good and evil? Or requires both good and evil? Scripture seems to me full of them, and so does life. These are waters too deep for minors. Minors want things cut and dried.
Nicely put.
To answer those questions.. the movie ‘Paul, Apostle of Christ’ ;D
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Nicely put.
To answer those questions.. the movie ‘Paul, Apostle of Christ’ ;D
= = =
Well maybe, but only if we edit the script to make it follow scripture.
As it stands it is most likely a fiction praising "men's" wisdom rather than God.
We will be waiting on your first hand appraisal of the films value to believers. :)
I-bob
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Nicely put.
To answer those questions.. the movie ‘Paul, Apostle of Christ’ ;D
= = =
Well maybe, but only if we edit the script to make it follow scripture.
Well if we did that then the movie would no longer be both good and evil... it would only be ‘good’ (presumably). The question was ‘can you name me one event, or situation, or condition that is both good and evil, or one that produces both good and evil, or requires both good and evil?’.. I think I’d have a harder time thinking of something that was only good or only evil in its totality.
I had no plans or interest in seeing the movie before this Bob but if you’re looking forward to a critique of it.. perhaps (God willing) I’ll see it and let you know, friend!
Have a good weekend guys!
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Hi Largeli
Your question, can you name me one event, or situation, or condition that is both good and evil, or one that produces both good and evil or requires both good and evil.
I am going to say the crucifixion of Jesus Christ required both good and evil to achieve its
purpose . Please correct me if I am mistaken. In Christ , Pamela
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Hi Largeli
Your question, can you name me one event, or situation, or condition that is both good and evil, or one that produces both good and evil or requires both good and evil.
I am going to say the crucifixion of Jesus Christ required both good and evil to achieve its
purpose . Please correct me if I am mistaken. In Christ , Pamela
Hi Pamela,
It was actually Dave’s question but, yes, I’d say I agree with you there.
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Life - An event, situation, condition that produces and requires both good and evil.
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Whoops sorry 😐 Largeli.
Stacey your statement about life being both good and evil now has me asking another question
about the opposite.
Is death good and evil? I guess how you die , eg, murder is evil.But what about death itself,
cause to be honest some days being dead seems good to me. I don’t know if I’m making sense anymore. I’m overwhelmed with people coming out of the woodwork, neighbours dropping by
for tea, old friends from years ago calling, bad news for someone I love, sisters having
problems, my kids are having trials. I try to be attentive to all the different conversations
but I feel like I’m pretending and I don’t feel good about that. Sorry for venting guys, just
one of those days, God Bless all of you. Sincerely in Christ Pamela
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Whoops sorry Largeli.
Stacey your statement about life being both good and evil now has me asking another question
about the opposite.
Is death good and evil? I guess how you die , eg, murder is evil.But what about death itself,
cause to be honest some days being dead seems good to me. I don’t know if I’m making sense anymore. I’m overwhelmed with people coming out of the woodwork, neighbours dropping by
for tea, old friends from years ago calling, bad news for someone I love, sisters having
problems, my kids are having trials. I try to be attentive to all the different conversations
but I feel like I’m pretending and I don’t feel good about that. Sorry for venting guys, just
one of those days, God Bless all of you. Sincerely in Christ Pamela
Pamela, most of us here can empathize. Some days are better than others, I call those blessings☺
This is what scripture tells us about death.
Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Sin, is the evil and death is the consequence.
This verse sounds like, under the right coditions, death would be a blessing.
Revelation 14:13
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
This human experience is most certainly not easy, but if we draw close to God durring our most difficult trials, he will be our bridge over troubled waters. These are the times I pray the most, because I cannot endure some of these trials alone. More and more, I feel this carnal life is unnatural.
Matthew 11:28-30
28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
Draw close to the comforter and he will ease your mind and give you peace.
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Whoops sorry 😐 Largeli.
Stacey your statement about life being both good and evil now has me asking another question
about the opposite.
Is death good and evil? I guess how you die , eg, murder is evil.But what about death itself,
cause to be honest some days being dead seems good to me. I don’t know if I’m making sense anymore. I’m overwhelmed with people coming out of the woodwork, neighbours dropping by
for tea, old friends from years ago calling, bad news for someone I love, sisters having
problems, my kids are having trials. I try to be attentive to all the different conversations
but I feel like I’m pretending and I don’t feel good about that. Sorry for venting guys, just
one of those days, God Bless all of you. Sincerely in Christ Pamela
Pamela, (and Wanda) just a slight adjustment to your thinking on this. The words translated (most often) as "Evil" into English don't have a moral bias to them. In other words, they don't "mean" "sinful acts" like murder. Being murdered is certainly an evil, and committing murder is certainly an evil ACT/DEED/WORK done to somebody else. But there are other ways to die. I'll stop there. This can be a bit of a hard concept to grasp since most of us grew up with Preachers who didn't use sound language.
Yes, I think death (or rather DYING) is both good and evil--no matter how young or healthy, old or unhealthy the person is.
When Ray died, this passage jammed its way into my mind.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
I always took that verse to mean something like "We better clean up our act, (Or say the prayer, or whatever) before we die or we'll get left out."
But now (and in that moment) I understand it to mean just what it says. This corruptible MUST put on incorruption, and this mortal MUST put on immortality. Because THAT'S THE WAY IT WORKS. It HAS to happen that way. We don't take on one without losing the other. Not even those who are "alive and remain" escape this CHANGE/EXCHANGE.
So, yes---death (or rather DYING) is an evil--there's no worse thing that can befall a LIVING SOUL--but in it is the promise of better, MUCH better. How much better is Immortality than Mortality? It's more than the difference between a mustard seed and a fruit bearing mustard plant. And that's good.
Anyway...do mustard plants bear fruit? As far as I know, I've only eaten it out of a jar or squeeze bottle.
Anyway...I've had one of those weeks myself the last few days. It's burdensome at times--and that's an evil. ;D Hang in there, He's growing you up through all this and you can't fail, ultimately.
Stacey, nicely put.
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Thanks Dave, great perspective. My own experiences with much loss, as well as Gods truths, have influenced my thinking on death and it's place in his ultimate plan. I tend to view the suffering as the evil and death being a welcome relief. Maybe I need to seek out mental help🤔
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Thanks Dave, great perspective. My own experiences with much loss, as well as Gods truths, have influenced my thinking on death and it's place in his ultimate plan. I tend to view the suffering as the evil and death being a welcome relief. Maybe I need to seek out mental help🤔
You don't need help, Wanda. Over the period of a decade, I watched my brother deteriorate from a healthy and strong individual into a bed ridden, unable to communicate, tube fed, frozen stiff slug before he died of Parkinson's disease. Death may be the final enemy, but it can be a welcome relief with the sure knowledge that the awakening will come. I miss my brother every day, and sometimes it hurts me to tears, but I'm glad he sleeps. I know he is better off for the time being.
Mike
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I'm not going to be "relieved" when I'm dead. I'm going to be dead. "Suffering" is only for the living. "Relief" is only for the living.
The living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing.
http://bible-truths.com/death.htm
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I'm not going to be "relieved" when I'm dead. I'm going to be dead. "Suffering" is only for the living. "Relief" is only for the living.
The living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing.
http://bible-truths.com/death.htm
Thanks for the link Dave, very encouraging.
I don't know anyone here on BT that would disagree with you on this truth Dave. The welcome relief, would be for the living, who endured the suffering right along with the one who suffered. The dead person's spirit is returned to the father, thus they are being relieved of their suffering.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
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Thanks Dave, great perspective. My own experiences with much loss, as well as Gods truths, have influenced my thinking on death and it's place in his ultimate plan. I tend to view the suffering as the evil and death being a welcome relief. Maybe I need to seek out mental help
You don't need help, Wanda. Over the period of a decade, I watched my brother deteriorate from a healthy and strong individual into a bed ridden, unable to communicate, tube fed, frozen stiff slug before he died of Parkinson's disease. Death may be the final enemy, but it can be a welcome relief with the sure knowledge that the awakening will come. I miss my brother every day, and sometimes it hurts me to tears, but I'm glad he sleeps. I know he is better off for the time being.
Mike
I feel your pain Mike. Just to be clear though, I was interjecting a wee bit of humor about seeking mental help.I've always been considered a little abinormal by some, for my unorthodox views on many issues.☺
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Wanda, Dave, Mike
Thankyou all so much for your comforting and wise words.
There is so much suffering all around me and I know it has to be this way.
But when it’s your own it’s much harder to deal with. Sadness envelops me.
All my trust is in the Lord and He will see me and my loved ones through this trial. He
always has. His will be done. I love all of you. In Christ, Pamela
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Is it even possible to progress at all without discerning between good and evil?
Discerning BETWEEN good and evil is actually the easy part. It can be "done" by the heathen, the godless, and by any spiritual "minor".
Gen_2:16 And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Eating you may eat of every tree in the garden;
Gen_2:17 but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die.
The Knowledge of both GOOD and EVIL was in the fruit of the tree. There isn't the fruit of the knowledge of evil on one branch, and the fruit of the knowledge of good on the other. When Adam ate, he ate the knowledge of them both in the same fruit. You can't have one without the other.
Paul put it this way:
Heb_5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Both good and evil. Both.
This can't be done by the heathen, the godless, and by spiritual "minors". "Heb 5:13 ...for everyone partaking of milk is without experience in the Word of Righteousness, for he is an infant." They may "know" their milk is "good" and may even "know" that other "milk" is evil, but that's the limit of their "knowledge". And it's difficult at best to talk to them like you would "them that are of full age."
Was thinking about the topic.. discerning between good and evil.
I think most people discern between better and worse only. I think discernment between good and evil is not something many can do. I think discernment between better and worse masquerades as discernment between good and evil.
Just a thought I had and didn’t want to start another thread.
Never saw the movie by the way. I did see Jurassic Workd with my daughter last weekend though. Fun movie.