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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: iris on October 16, 2006, 09:39:09 PM

Title: Christmas
Post by: iris on October 16, 2006, 09:39:09 PM
I haven't read anything in Ray's papers or the emails he gets about Christmas. I would ike to know what the Bible view is on this. I thought someone here could help me out. Thanks!
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: gmik on October 16, 2006, 10:12:09 PM
Hi Iris.  Welcome.

On his site, in the e-mail section look for holidays.  That is all physical stuff not spiritual.

Kat is really good at finding things, maybe she will read this.  I really just wanted to welcome you. :D

gena
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: Kat on October 17, 2006, 12:12:51 AM
Hi Gena,

Well thanks for the confidence,
I think I just have the time to do the hunting.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html

CHRISTMAS:

Most religious festivals of the world have something to do with sex or fertility. The Christian Holy Days are no different. They ARE in fact, little more than these same pagan festivals with Christian orientations. Christmas, for example IS the pagan Roman Saturnalia or sometimes called "The Festival of Lights." But even the Saturnalia predates the founding of Rome by centuries. This same festival can be traced to Babylon, and yes, you guessed it, to Egypt and their winter celebration of lights.

December 25 is near the winter solstice. It is the time when the sun after having been at the lowest point in the heavens, beings to rise over the world with renewed vigor and power. It was the time of heathen festivities in worship of the sun. The vernal equinox is the point where the sun crosses the celestial equator, about March 20, making day and night of equal length everywhere. This was the time of pagan spring festivals.

The day of December 25 acquired a new significance under the rule of Emperor Aurelian. He proclaimed this day as "Dies Natalis Invicti Solis," or the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun. This was because of a strange Eastern religion, Mithraism, whose god Mithras was identified with the Unconquered Sun. During the Saturnalia work of every kind ceased. Schools were closed.

The Roman Saturnalia was boisterous. But whatever the behavior of some Romans, others were simply merry. They ate big dinners, visited their friends, etc. The halls of the Romans were decked with boughs of laurel and of green trees, with lighted candles and with lamps--for the hovering spirits of darkness were afraid of light. Bonfires were lit in high places to strengthen the reviving sun in his course. Candles and green wreaths were given as presents, the streets were crowded with noisy processions of men and women carrying lighted tapers, and public places were decked with flowers and shrubs. The practice of giving and receiving presents was almost as common then as it is now at Christmas. Our present day "Christmas spirit" is actually the spirit of this old Roman festival.
All of this pagan nonsense found in the Christian Church came out of Rome and Greece and Egypt. The worship of sex and fertility pictured by symbols of sex and reproduction and fertility was a major part of pagan religion, and Egypt was the origin of many of these pagan practices. Did God reveal His truth to the Egyptians and expect Moses to learn the truths of God from the Egyptians? Moses learned all the pagan customs of Egypt, but he did not pass so much as one of them onto Israel. All that Moses taught Israel CAME FROM GOD.

SO WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?
What does God think of the religion and wisdom and customs of Egypt?
It means that virtually everything about Christendom—from its name ‘Church,’ to the architecture of their buildings, to the origin of their holy days and doctrines, is all straight out of heathenism,
of which God Almighty declares:
"LEARN NOT THE WAY OF THE HEATHEN… inquire NOT after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? Even so WILL I DO LIKEWISE" (Jer. 10:2 & Deut. 12:30).

All Christian doctrines that are not out of paganism are nonetheless, unscriptural.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hope this will help you Iris.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat



Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: hughbee40 on October 17, 2006, 12:25:13 AM
I used to be very uptight about christmas, halloween and easter.  If you do some research, it's not hard to find that they are all very pagan in their origin.  However, I have found that if you truly have your heart centered on Jesus Christ and believe in the sovereign will of God, these distractions will have very little effect upon you.  I believe, that as many christians have a"flawed" viewpoint as it relates to God, so do those who view Satan as some sort of adversary to God.  While holidays such as christmas, halloween and easter may have no true biblical significance and in many cases become a sort of worship to Satan or an anti-christ belief, to a true christian they are nothing more than a series of holidays.  One word of caution I humbly offer is to never tell your children that there is a Santa Clause.  For no other reason than to keep from lying to them.  One day they will discover that there isn't one and while they may never say "you lied to me", you have established a subliminal precedent that you can and will lie to them.  Always strive to maintain a spirit of truth which led you to L. Ray's website and this forum.

Yours in Christ
Hughbee40
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: gmik on October 17, 2006, 12:49:23 AM
Kat, I knew you'd come thru! :)

This forum has done threads on this before, and there really has been no consensus (same for go to church, don't go to church).

Don't you think in America, mostly it is observed cuz we get some time off work?? Gatherings with the family, food, gifts etc.  Think how many "churches' close their doors on the eve and the day, when years ago it was what ya did  --go to church at those times.

I don't think most people worry about what Egyptians did 4,000 yrs ago or what the germans did 200 yrs ago with the christmas tree. Now christendom holds onto the pretense that we are honoring the christchild and remembering His birth ALONG with Madison Avenues campaign to loosen our wallets.

I believe Ray nailed it but in reality with our families it is hard to NOT participate.

gena
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: YellowStone on October 17, 2006, 12:41:28 PM
This is indeed a very interesting topic.

I for one participated in many Lutheran Church festivities and activities as a child, all related to Christmas and the celebration of the birth of Christ. Never let it be said that the thought of presents and meeting with family members was always close to mind. The time was however, always a celebration of the birth of Christ.

However, commercialism has now marketed the commerce side of Christmas to the point of totally removing God and Christ from it. Is it now a pagan ritual? To many, yes. But to others, no. I, like Gena care little about what happened several millennia ago.

No way am I lost in the hype of Christmas, and neither do I see this day as greater as any other day.

I guess the question is, would I stop celebrating Christmas with my family? Would I stop playing Christmas music, giving and receiving and visiting with friends? What would this achieve?

Does celebrating a purely secular holiday (with Christian connotations) wrong? Should we ignore the holiday or instead, try to inject the true meaning of the celebration?

Who can answer this truly, for are we all not walking with and according to God.

Gena, I agree with all you said and Kat, your study is as usual, flawless. :)

Many Thanks and Love to you all,

Darren
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: Rene on October 17, 2006, 02:10:05 PM
Hi Iris,

A year ago I asked Ray about celebrating Christmas.  I was new to Bible-Truths.com and was asking Ray all sorts of questions because I was desperately seeking "truth" and only wanted to associate with those who were worshipping God in truth.  I am retyping Ray's answer to my question:

"As for Christmas, well, it's the feast of the Roman Saturnalia, and as such is not something that Believers should be actively participating in.  However, if a wife or husband insists on keeping Christmas for the kids sake, I certainly wouldn't break up a marriage over it.  Paul taught us that: "Unto the pure all things are pure."  Let the world do their thing, and remember that we are not to be "OF this world" even though we must still live IN it."

His answer satisfied me because I had done my own research on the origins of Christmas, as well as Easter, i.e. pagan.  I no longer decorate or participate in the gift giving aspects of Christmas.  I'm blessed that my family respects my decision, this includes my only child who is now 23 years old.  This does not mean that there has not been some subtle persecution surrounding this issue.  I still stiffen when I have to defend my beliefs.   

I do not rule out spending time with famiily and love ones during this time of year because that is when most people have time off from their jobs.  Whatever we do, we must do it through the spirit of love.

I hope this is of some help to you.

May the Lord's peace and grace be with you,

Rene'

Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: all4love on October 17, 2006, 03:44:20 PM
I still celebrate christmas,  however, like Darren and Gena I really don't look at this as being a celebration of Christ's birth.  I celebrate my family (so to speak)  you see, everyone knows that this is the day that all company's take off so family and friends can get together, it is also the only REAL time that I get to spend with my family (and believe me there isn't to much time left to do that with, especially with my parents)

Everyone likes to mention that the holidays are pagan.  However, how many people know that the days of the week also originated by pagan customs and beliefs?  Not only the days of the week but the fact that a week is 7 days long?  Not to mention the months of the year were originated by pagan beliefs and customs.

Because of this reason or should I say this is one of the reasons why I feel that it is ok to Observe Christmas but not Celebrate it in the fashion that the Church Celebrates it.  This is however just my opinion.  I hope that nobody gets offended by it.

May God Bless you all,
all4love
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: Extol on October 17, 2006, 04:42:42 PM
It's ridiculous to say that Christians shouldn't celebrate Christmas. What does it matter if Romans worshipped the sun on this day? Does that mean WE are worshipping the sun by getting together with family and giving gifts to each other and remembering Christ's birth? Of course not. Is it wrong to thank God more than usual for the Resurrection around Easter time, just because Easter is "pagan"? Of course not. How absurd.
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: YellowStone on October 17, 2006, 06:48:08 PM
Extol, Althoough you came on pretty strong :) I agree 100%.

I usually do not take sides on subjects such as these, but being at least a little mature in the truth, we should be able according to the will of God, make a day of getting together with family and giving gifts to each other and remembering Christ's birth and NOT be labeled as pagans.

On the other hand, I would never tell anyone that not celebrating this day (pagan 25th dec) in this way is wrong.

The fact is, each of us holds many things dear to our hearts. Did anyone of us decide this by our own will, or was it by the will of God?

We cannot have it both ways, either all is happening according to God's will or not. Whatever truth we hold was given to us by God. Even the words of Ray a mere human (no disrespect intended) can only be understood by those given the ears to hear.

So is there anything wrong for celebrating Christmas as a season of giving with loved ones?

By judging others, are we not judging God?

There :) I finally got it out. :)

Wen we pray, does God know in advance?

If we don't pray will the outcome be different? (How could it - God is unchanging)

If we don't pray is it because we decide not to, or is it by the will of God?

Sorry about this  ::)

I am having trouble with the Puppet-on-a-String concept. I don't feel like a puppet, but like I said earlier: "either all is happening according to God's will or not".

So if anyone can help, the please do.... :)

Love to all,

darren
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: jennie on October 17, 2006, 08:05:07 PM
This isn't spiritual at all but I think Christmas is a lot of fun. All the pretty lights and all.... I love it. We always have what we call a free market at our church for parents and grandparents to come get their children gifts. Most of them aren't able to go to town and get gifts. We all buy or make things for children and our teen-agers wrap the gifts up for the families. We give them a box of groceries too so they can have a good Christmas dinner. Some of us work at the church on Christmas and Thanksgiving too and cook for our community helpers like the police and firemen that have to work all the time. We fix for the folks who work at the little convenience stores in our area. We cook their dinner and deliver to them. It sounds like a lot of work but it's fun. The sad thing I guess is that there are some big churches in our area that have a whole lot of money but they won't turn loose of a penny to help others. They even send people to us to help instead of helping them themselves.We don't mind though. God always provides even though we are a group of (money) poor people.
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: hillsbororiver on October 17, 2006, 08:05:58 PM
It's ridiculous to say that Christians shouldn't celebrate Christmas. What does it matter if Romans worshipped the sun on this day? Does that mean WE are worshipping the sun by getting together with family and giving gifts to each other and remembering Christ's birth? Of course not. Is it wrong to thank God more than usual for the Resurrection around Easter time, just because Easter is "pagan"? Of course not. How absurd.

Hi Extol,

Apparently Paul did not think it ridiculous and absurd to refrain from getting caught up in observing special days or times, especially when the origins of these days are well known. We are in the Sabbath resting in Him 24/7 not on Saturday or Sunday or Christmas or Easter. Every minute of every day is His, and ours to honor, obey and glorify Him.

We shouldn't ruin our family's holiday season by being rigid and unyielding in how we interact with them and others on these days, but to add any special significance to them, like we are honoring God even more or remembering Him especially on these days is not what where we should be at this point in our journey.

Here is an example in Galations 4 of what I am speaking of, I will use a few different translations for clarity;[/color]

Galatians 4 (New International Version)

Paul's Concern for the Galatians
 
 8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you

Galatians 4 (The Message)

 8-11Earlier, before you knew God personally, you were enslaved to so-called gods that had nothing of the divine about them. But now that you know the real God—or rather since God knows you—how can you possibly subject yourselves again to those paper tigers? For that is exactly what you do when you are intimidated into scrupulously observing all the traditions, taboos, and superstitions associated with special days and seasons and years. I am afraid that all my hard work among you has gone up in a puff of smoke!

Galatians 4 (Amplified Bible)

8 But at that previous time, when you had not come to be acquainted with and understand and know the true God, you [Gentiles] were in bondage to gods who by their very nature could not be gods at all [gods that really did not exist].

9 Now, however, that you have come to be acquainted with and understand and know [the true] God, or rather to be understood and known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly and worthless elementary things [[d]of all religions before Christ came], whose slaves you once more want to become?

10 You observe [particular] days and months and seasons and years!

11 I am alarmed [about you], lest I have labored among and over you to no purpose and in vain.

If you have any scriptural witnesses that proclaim we are to glorify Christ more on one day rather than another I will submit to that authority.

But please don't get the idea that we should be scrooges and bah, humbug away the days our loved ones hold important, we should always be a light and not a burden to those around us. I will take the opportunity again this year to witness to my family and friends how every minute of every day belongs to Him, as I do the other days of the year.

I hope you take this in the spirit it is given, it was not my intention to offend anyone,

Joe

 



Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: Kat on October 17, 2006, 08:31:12 PM
Quote
But please don't get the idea that we should be scrooges and bah, humbug away the days our loved ones hold important, we should always be a light and not a burden to those around us. I will take the opportunity again this year to witness to my family and friends how every minute of every day belongs to Him, as I do the other days of the year.

I agree with you totally on this Joe.

I understand it is between every individual person and God, to do what He leads them do.
I am not judging anyone as to this or any other thing, why would I want to anyway.
But I do have a different prospective, on this subject.  
It is not the favorite view on this, but some may want to consider both sides.

The very popularity of christmas should cause us to question it.  Anyone and everyone celebrate christmas, outright pagans, nominal Christians, and even Buddhists and Hindus. If in reality, Dec. 25th were a date of the birth of Jesus, there is no doubt that the world would have nothing to do with it.

Gal 4:8  Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. v.9  But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?  v.10 You observe days and months and seasons and years!

Celebrating Christ's birth is a form of worship. But since christmas is all about false beliefs, those who celebrate it are not worshiping in "spirit and truth" (John 4:24).]

Some feel that because of the long passage of time from their pagan inception to the present, the connection to paganism has been diminished over time. While it may be true that most symbols have lost their original meaning and significance, it is strange and ironic that Christendom seeks to commemorate Christ's birth with the faded symbols of paganism.
And even though some people may be ignorant about the source of these things, surely God is not. Can such things please Him?

Can we add mass to the name of our Christ and not blaspheme the name of Christ,  
Pro 30:6  "Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."

By taking a pagan celebration, "Christianizing" it, and calling it a celebration of the birth of Christ, is most certainly taking the Lord's name in vain.
A question- will Christ allow christmas to be celebrated when He rules the nations, during His reign on earth?

So there you have it, a unpopular point of view to say the least.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: mongoose on October 17, 2006, 08:42:30 PM
  As Joe said, it doesn't really matter if the Romans worshiped the sun on any particular day.  As for thanking God more than usual for the Resurrection around Easter time, well, I would guess that depends on why and where you are.  I haven't found any references in the NT that Peter or Paul remember the resurrection more or less on any day.  Only that they kept it in front of them always.  So, is the day when some celebrate Christmas or Easter a day to worship God and remember the birth, life, and resurrection of Christ...to me, yes...those are days on which to do them....as is every other day.  If we have entered into His sabbath rest, then every day, every minute is the Sabbath.  We have been taught that all is of and for God...so how can any one day be more special than any other?  We can work and go about our lives living every day as a Sabbath to rest in the Lord and serve Him because we know that each day and every single minute of each day is a gift from God and every bit of work we do, whether in our jobs or in our lives away from our occupations, we do for God.  It's all His.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.   Ephesians 6:5-8

Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.  Colossians 3: 22-24

As for the pagan origins, undeniably there.  And I do go to my family's for the holiday season because it would hurt them a lot if I didn't.  But also don't get into the whole "we must celebrate Christ's birth" discussions either.  I just say that Christ wasn't born then...and that has been unpopular enough to get some people really angry.  What I've always thought is that if God had wanted us to celebrate these days, then He would've been specific about when they are.  We don't even know the date of Jesus' birth..and I think that's on purpose.  We can't fix special importance to a particular day if we don't know which day it is, right?  Hope this helps.

mongoose
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: Brett on October 17, 2006, 08:53:14 PM
Hi Iris,

A year ago I asked Ray about celebrating Christmas.  I was new to Bible-Truths.com and was asking Ray all sorts of questions because I was desperately seeking "truth" and only wanted to associate with those who were worshipping God in truth.  I am retyping Ray's answer to my question:

"As for Christmas, well, it's the feast of the Roman Saturnalia, and as such is not something that Believers should be actively participating in.  However, if a wife or husband insists on keeping Christmas for the kids sake, I certainly wouldn't break up a marriage over it.  Paul taught us that: "Unto the pure all things are pure."  Let the world do their thing, and remember that we are not to be "OF this world" even though we must still live IN it."

His answer satisfied me because I had done my own research on the origins of Christmas, as well as Easter, i.e. pagan.  I no longer decorate or participate in the gift giving aspects of Christmas.  I'm blessed that my family respects my decision, this includes my only child who is now 23 years old.  This does not mean that there has not been some subtle persecution surrounding this issue.  I still stiffen when I have to defend my beliefs.   

I do not rule out spending time with famiily and love ones during this time of year because that is when most people have time off from their jobs.  Whatever we do, we must do it through the spirit of love.

I hope this is of some help to you.

May the Lord's peace and grace be with you,

Rene'



Hey Rene

Thanks for the share for us of Ray's response. I have been wondering for so long. My wife and my two kids are still celebrate of Christmas. I tried to explain them about pagan's things but I cannot control over them. I let God do all His work. If He reveal Himself to my wife and my kids, changed can happen.

Brett
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: YellowStone on October 17, 2006, 10:41:43 PM
Kat,

Your response was fine and I have no problem with it (as usual) :)

But I brought up a point and got no bites, so I will try again with something you mentioned.

Please know that this is not an attack on you. I am merely seeking understanding of a very important issue in my journey with God. :)

You wrote:

And even though some people may be ignorant about the source of these things, surely God is not. Can such things please Him?  [/b]

If man has no free will, meaning nothing happens without God's foreknowledge; how can we either please or displease him?

I'm just not getting it. Is anyone here suggesting that "I" that is little me can go against God's plans? Granted, I might kick and fight, but surely God knows that.

So Kat, how then can I displease God? How can the pagan priests?

Moderators, anyone......please join in.  :)

Love to You all,

Darren
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: hillsbororiver on October 17, 2006, 11:32:43 PM
Darren,

It is all in the heart, is it the utmost desire of a man's heart to please God? That pleases Him.

We of ourselves, in the flesh cannot please Him but Christ in us does more and more as we die to the flesh daily by consistantly seeking His will in all things.

Psa 69:30  I will praise the name of God with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving.
 
Psa 69:31  This also shall please the LORD better than an ox or bullock that hath horns and hooves.

Pro 16:6  By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.
 
Pro 16:7  When a man's ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.

Loving Him and loving our Brethren, charity, this is the greatest of the fruits of the Spirit.

Heb 13:1 Let brotherly love continue.

Heb 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Heb 13:3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.

Heb 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Heb 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Heb 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

Heb 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

Heb 13:11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

Heb 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

Heb 13:16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Heb 13:18 Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.

Heb 13:19 But I beseech you the rather to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Heb 13:22 And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation: for I have written a letter unto you in few words.

Heb 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty; with whom, if he come shortly, I will see you.

Heb 13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

Heb 13:25 Grace be with you all. Amen.

1Pe 4:8  And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

1Jo 3:22  And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
 
1Jo 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
 
1Jo 3:24  And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: gmik on October 18, 2006, 12:02:44 AM
I knew there would not be a consensus on this.  We are all at different places and stages in our journey.

One year my whole family went to DisneyWorld for the week between the holidays(holy days?).  Because that cost alot, we gave no presents to anyone-the kids agreed because well, ya know, DISNEYworld!!  That was such an easy way to get out of a tree, food with the relatives, decorating. We just ignored Christmas (well, even w/o snow, Florida was pretty decked out) in as much as we could.  I would like to do that every year.

I just finished reading Romans ch9-ch12.  Awesome chapters.  I think I would be offending weaker brethren to not be at family gatherings. My adult children celebrate Christmas (well, I did bring them up with it-but never a belief in Santa-which I took some hits from the family over). They know I have changed my beliefs but I am walking gingerly as I want them to stay open to all this. My granddaughter?? Last year I loaded her up with gifts...this year, well how do I do this?  Decreasing the gifts year by year?  I don't want to be known as Granny Scrooge either.

My son who now lives in Florida can't wait to come home to a snowy,  old fashioned christmas.  As of right now, i don't know what I will do.  Since LOVE is the best thing, that is going to be my guide toward my family.  God knows my heart, and He made me, and set up all the things that I've experienced in my life, to be at this point in my life.

We KNOW that it is not the unforgiveable sin ;) If it is an "idol of the heart" He wil deal w/ me about that.

Thanks for "listening" to my rambling.
Love ya all, (I enjoyed ALL the posts)

gena
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: YellowStone on October 18, 2006, 12:05:07 AM
Joe may God bless you :)

Your simple answer removed the confusion. duh!  ???

Joe wrote:

It is all in the heart, is it the utmost desire of a man's heart to please God? That pleases Him.


I cannot fault your reasoning here.

Gen 1:31  

We of ourselves, in the flesh cannot please Him but Christ in us does more and more as we die to the flesh daily by consistantly seeking His will in all things.  

These few words are amazing to me. Joe you have absolutely know idea how God has used you tonight.

2Cr 2:14

How else, but by Christ. It is he alone that has taken us out of this world, and his Father that feeds us knowledge as we grow. I grew some tonight for sure.

Thanks everyone for a great discussion.

I love you al and so does God! :)

Darren
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: gmik on October 18, 2006, 12:19:19 AM
Jennie, as I was reading your post about your church I got this picture in my mind of a Currier & Ives painting.  You know, snow gently falling, carolers singing, hot chocolate steaming for the ice skaters........aaaahhhhhh.....

Maybe that is why some of us still "do" christ-mass==all those memories of a Victorian type era, dreams unfulfilled, dolls we didn't get, the time we got exactly what we wanted, for me it is memories of my mom & dad together before they divorced.. a time when my own children were young & innocent....

Time has a way of flying.....I am getting myself sad over nothing!! :'(

me
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: Kat on October 18, 2006, 01:52:03 AM
Hi Gena,

I sympathize with your situation.  Going against the flow is not easy :)
I too am in a difficult situation.
I was in a church 10 yrs ago, where we did not celebrate christmas at all,
I was in that church for 15 yrs, not keeping christmas.
But I left and went back to a mainstream church, and gradually but totally was involved with christmas again, that's been the last 10yrs.
So now I have to stop all over again, and my 3 girls (17,19,and 23) are not happy about it.
Well, it was kinda simple for me, I just told them I would not do any of it myself,
but they could do it all on there own and I would not oppose them.
It really does not bother me that other people, even my girls, want to do it.
I feel like it really matters how I deal with the situations as they come along.
I love my family and I will not try to force them to do or even understand, what I have to do.
So just do what you feel is the right thing, God will guide you as you go.
Hope you can have peace and trust God to help you through it.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: gmik on October 18, 2006, 02:37:24 AM
Thank you Kat! :-*
gena
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: mongoose on October 18, 2006, 01:28:39 PM
Gena,
   You didn't tell your kids about Santa?  Sorry for the curiosity.  My husband and I don't have kids but if God brings kids into our lives, we dont' want to tell them all that garbage either.  Did your family object?  What did you say to them?  We made a brief foray into saying we didn't believe in teaching kids fairy tales about santa and the tooth fairy and 4-5 of our relatives all decided to yell at us at once.  Sorry if this is inappropriately curious.

mongoose
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: gmik on October 18, 2006, 02:15:46 PM
Hi Mongoose, Yes, I got a similar reaction from the family as you did. We didn't deny the fact of Santa to the kids, they just knew he was pretend, so I never forbade Santa dolls and what not. My kids went to a Christian school and even there lots of kids Believed in him! But they got thru it....the worst was Halloween!  My family thought we were nuts- my kids couldn't dress up or go trick or treating-and they thought we were depriving them of so much!  One year when the kids were older, church started offering an alternative type party and we let them attend that.

I have a "christian" aunt who would fill me in on all the gossip that my family was saying about me. I always sent Christian greeting cards, birthday cards etc.  They would even comment about that-Oh, guess who this is from?? sneer sneer. I always was pleasant around them and never brought up anything controversial. After awhile (years) things calmed down.

One time, the kids were staying at my mom's and she showed them a scary movie called the Devil Dog...they had never seen anything like that!  She knew I would be mad but did it anyway.  My kids still talk about how scaird they were!!

It is not always easy to know the best thing to do with your kids. I wish I knew then all the stuff I know now- you will have it easier I think when your kids come along.

My kids never felt deprived, or wierd, or anything. But I found out years later that as teens when they went to a sleep-over they would trick or treat or toilet-paper houses!!!!

 ;D
gena
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: Andy_MI on October 18, 2006, 02:24:29 PM
Good thread eveyone!

My 27 year old son called me about a month ago and we got on the subject of beleifs and such. He thanked me that I never taught him the whole "christmas" lie about santa claus and all the gift giving rutuals that most people like to partake of. He said that he really appreciated me telling him the truth about christmas being a pagan holiday.

Back when I made that decision (prayfully) to not go along with my family's desire to teach my son to believe in santa claus I was given a lot of grief from my mom and dad and sister. They thought it was such a horrible thing not to tell my son that santa claus is real.  They wanted me to tell him the same lie that they told me as a child.

I shared with my parents how much that lie messed me up as a child when I found out that it was all a lie! I felt angry, confused, let down etc. Because of that I refused to follow that same trend and rather give the truth. And I was rewarded last month with my son's phone call to me thanking me for that. He also has two children of his own and he is going to be truthful with them as well.  That really blessed my heart!

I think our Father is always pleased when we want to please Him and do what's right and true in His eyes. Even and especially when it goes against the majority.

I like what Kat brought out in Ray's teaching on the subject especially this quote:

Quote
SO WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?
What does God think of the religion and wisdom and customs of Egypt?
It means that virtually everything about Christendom—from its name ‘Church,’ to the architecture of their buildings, to the origin of their holy days and doctrines, is all straight out of heathenism,
of which God Almighty declares:
"LEARN NOT THE WAY OF THE HEATHEN… inquire NOT after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? Even so WILL I DO LIKEWISE" (Jer. 10:2 & Deut. 12:30).

I feel that if we are lacks concerning one pagan holiday than participating in others becomes easier also.  Can anyone say Halloween??? Easter???

The only holiday we have that isn't pagan in it's roots seems to be Thanksgiving.

We and I mean (me) should make pleasing our Father the number one priority in our life.

Peace,

Andy

Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: longhorn on October 18, 2006, 10:16:19 PM
Christmas just hasn't been the same since old Bing left us.   :D

Longhorn
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: iris on October 18, 2006, 11:06:41 PM
I would like to thank everyone for sharing their christian views and scriptures. Kat and Rene thanks for posting what Ray had to say about Christmas. It has given me a lot to think about, and to pray about.

Love to All
Iris
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: TimothyVI on October 19, 2006, 09:33:06 AM
I would like to share just one more side to the santa clause thing.

My Mother raised my two brothers and I all by herself. We were rich in love but very poor
in monetary things. My Mother let us enjoy getting a present on Christmas without feeling
guilty about her sacrifice. She did this by allowing us to believe that someone else, santa clause, gave it to us.

When I was finally old enough to realize that santa was a fairy tale, I really did not enjoy
getting any kind of present on Christmas because I knew that my mother could not
afford to buy those kinds of things.

I don't know if believing that some kindly old man gives little children presents on Christmas
is wrong or not. Giving santa a position above jesus in importance is of course wrong.
My mother never did that. In our house Christmas was a celebration of the birth of Jesus,
and santa was someone that gave little children a gift because he was also celebrating the
joy of the birth of Christ.

I don't know, I guess that when I was very young, I am glad that there was a santa
in my growing up.

Would I do that again with my children, maybe not.
Tim
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: jennie on October 19, 2006, 01:51:12 PM
One of my favorite Christmas memories was when I was about 14 years old. Our Daddy was an alcoholic and he and my Mama had divorced when I was 10 years old. I got a work permit and got a mill job to help pay the bills. Our Mama sort of had a breakdown and didn't want us anymore. She did her thing and I took care of me and my little brother. I had saved a dollar a week out of my paycheck and was able to get my Mama a pair of earrings and a book. I got my brother some little toys to put under the tree. I was so happy to be able to get those little presents for them. I did get my Daddy a little gift too. Me and my brother got to stay in our home. We didn't get taken away or anything. We just didn't let anyone know we didn't have parents at home all the time. I was big enough to take care of us. I was already 10 years old and my little brother  was 8. Life sometimes throws hard things our way but  I think in our case it made us appreciate the good times even more.Much love, Jennie
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: Bill on October 19, 2006, 02:11:26 PM
Hello,

Thanks to all that posted.  A lot of good stuff here and this came just about a perfect time as we are evaluating how we are going to handle christmas in our household and with family.  Odd thing is my wife and I both see christmas as a pagan holiday but our reason for not celebrating are a little different.

One thing to note that many of those and I believe including Ray and Mike stopped celebrating christmas while in Babylon.   

I think we should ask ourselves why celebrate christmas?  And then evaluate those reasons to determine if they align with the spirit of God.

God Bless
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: ned on October 21, 2006, 12:55:16 AM
To quote Darren:

Joe may God bless you :)

Your simple answer removed the confusion. duh!  ???

Joe wrote:

It is all in the heart, is it the utmost desire of a man's heart to please God? That pleases Him.


I cannot fault your reasoning here.

........

These few words are amazing to me. Joe you have absolutely know idea how God has used you tonight.
end quote



2Thes1:3  (KJV) 
We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly,
and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth...

  :)  :) 


Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on October 22, 2006, 07:36:22 PM
I like what everyone is saying here. :D

For me a birthday is actually an EARTHday!...What do you think about this idea?...I base it on 2 Cor 5:16 Consequently, from now on we estimate and regard no one from a purley human point of view ( that was NO ONE... Any thoughts?)...in terms of natural standards or value (could Paul mean here Birthdays ?) No even though we once did estimate Christ from a human viewpoint and as a man, yet now we have such knowledge of Him that we know Him no longer in terms of the flesh.

1 Cor 2:2 For I resolved (I think he meant it!) to know nothing, and to be conscious of nothing among you except Jesus Christ the Messiah and Him crucified.

It is important what you say Joe,  Paul was not interested in human parties or man made traditions. We are no longer under the law.
Mark : 2 27 And Jesus said to them, The Sabbath was made on account and for the sake of man, not man for the Sabbath.

I think everyday is the birth of Christ because He is born..... everyday is Easter because He has died and for us now there is no condemnation.  everyday is a present because of His Spirit .. because HE is the same Yesterday Today and Tomorrow.

The first miracle performed by Jesus was at a Wedding.....would he have been there if it were a earthday party?....What is an earthday party....it is a carnal celebration...I think that is what Paul was alluding to when he admonished and cautioned us in the spirit! Nothing wrong with that either! :D

1 Cor 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, b ut the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God ".....(not knowing any longer the things that are given or offered by the world!)

Arcturus  :)




Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: gmik on November 02, 2006, 12:22:06 PM
I like that:     "Everyday is a present"   

Life is a Gift and we should rejoice everymorning when we get up! ;D

From the rising of the sun, tothe going down of the same....

Thank you Jesus for this present!!!

gena
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: Madeline on November 02, 2006, 09:55:39 PM
I sort of disagree with those who celebrate Christimas. We are told to separate ourselves from the world and its traditions.

Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

John 4:24 - God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
 
I am open to correction.

Love,
Madeline
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: Bill on November 02, 2006, 11:34:21 PM
. We are told to separate ourselves from the world

How does one separate themselves from the world?

To me it is a spiritual matter not physical.


Bill

Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: Madeline on November 03, 2006, 12:44:49 AM
The physical world sometimes reflects the spiritual. If someone has a fancy car, goes to clubs and loves to dress in rich clothing—this physical reflects whats in the inside of this person.

Love,
Madeline
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: Michele on November 03, 2006, 08:10:22 AM
Well, I am feeling odd after reading this discussion.  Everything that goes on in daily life is "pagan"  it seems.  Birthdays, all the fun childhood holiday's Easter, Christmas and halloween.  Days of the months, days of the week, seasons.  All of it.  All of the traditional holiday's that are the very foundations of close families.

It frightens me when i see all the different responces to it.  Sometimes all I know to do is ask myself how I feel about something...as I've always thought of God as being my conscience.  Does doing this that or the other make me feel bad is the way I answer things when everything else is confusion to me.

I love Christmas and the other holidays as they were always times when famillies got together to spend time together and have fun fellowship together.  I know now that the tree/lights/etc are pagan derived. (as is nearly everything in daily life)  I know that a birthday is "pagan".  I do not consciously worship anyone but Jesus/God.  Some of the most wonderful memories of my life are the beautiful holiday's when my mother did everything she could to make our lives a little "magical" and she did it out of pure love, the same as I do with my child.  I told her (my kid)l from the get-go about the holiday's and their origins and that santa isn't real just because i didn't want to lie to her. 

 I understand what you're saying as much as I"m able but at this point I do not feel bad about any of this and it makes me feel sad to think that I am supposed to feel  bad about it?

 

I don't know.  I guess were all in different places in this journey. I must confess deep inside my heart I"m afraid to be or maybe afraid I never will be all the things that people here say we're supposed to be.  We all still live in this world and while I'd never want to be a part of anything bad in this world and I do not wish to displease God either.   

I just feel only happiness and love and goodness when I remember all of the holiday's of my childhood.  I only feel that same happiness now, until I come here and read something to the contrary. 

I love giving and making gifts and spending time with my family, I love the pretty decorations.  I told my daughter that the star on top of the christmas tree was to represent the star over bethlehem when christ was born, that the gifts we give one another represent the gifts that the  wise men gave to jesus. That's what my mother taught me.  Those things always felt good and happy.  Are those things supposed to be wrong or just the special observance of days that used to be pagan that we try to convert into special rememberances of particular christain occasions?   Is it better to keep our family traditions and use them to love our family even more or to give them up and cause family strife? If we dont' want to give them up does that make us bad?
Personally I can truthfully say that I don't want to give them up.   I guess if it's wrong I pray that God will forgive me. 
Ever seen A Christmas Carol?  That's how I feel inside at christmas time.

I like to "Celebrate" with my family.  I am thankful for them, I am thankful Jesus, I am thankful that I can give a gift or bring a smile to someones face by giving them a gift or just sharing a good meal together.  I used to look with love upon a nativity scene...

Everything is just so complicated...........

Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: hillsbororiver on November 03, 2006, 09:17:41 AM
Hi Michele,

I would not stress over this issue, continue to seek Him first in all things and this stuff will sort itself out. I don't think anyone here was advising that we should be so rigid as to ruin our families' holiday.

The point is that one day is no more "holy" than any other, every day should be in celebration of our Lord and Saviour.

Enjoy the fellowship with family and friends.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: gmik on November 03, 2006, 01:56:58 PM
I agree with Joe Michele, don't stress.  We basically are all gonna do what we feel right about doing.  Don't celebrate, do celebrate.  Me, I don't have the total say in the matter since my husband loves Christmas, so we celebrate.  But as Joe says, we can celebrate HIM everyday. Whatever, the Lord loves us SO much that if HE is bothered by it HE will let us know.

Michele, I just wanted to tell you I named my daughter Leah Michele.  I just love the one "l".

gena

I just reread this thread from start to finish.  So many good thoughts.
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: ned on November 04, 2006, 01:21:15 AM
One thing about Christmas for me is because I thought it was to be a Christian holiday celebrating the birth of Jesus, I for so many years was expecting to feel something "spiritual" at Christmas. I always yearned for some supernatural feeling because I was "celebrating for the right reason".
No special aura, no spirituality, no supernatural feelings ever came. I actually cried one year because this was lacking.

I think this is the kind of rudiment of the world we are too avoid.

Following man's traditions leads you to think you are doing the right thing, when really you are so far from the truth it's unbelievable!

God knows our hearts. Christmas is another day, it's a gift. If anything, enjoy it for that reason alone.

Love,
Marie

Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: Bill on November 04, 2006, 11:39:46 AM
Hi Madeline,

Again how does one physically separate oneself from the world?

The physical world sometimes reflects the spiritual. If someone has a fancy car, goes to clubs and loves to dress in rich clothing—this physical reflects whats in the inside of this person.

Love,
Madeline

OK, can you tell me then if someone physically celebrates christmas what does this reflect spiritually?  Is this an absolute?  Or is it possible to physically celebrate christmas but not spiritually?


God bless


Bill

Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on November 04, 2006, 02:52:53 PM

Bill

You ask...."if someone physically celebrates christmas, is this an absolute? Or is it possible to physically celebrate christmas but not spiritually?

Relatively speaking, I think that if someone celebrates christmas it may not necessarily be spiritually celebrated for that person. I think is is absolutely possible to spiritually celebrate christmas evey day but not necessarily only on one day of every year!.... yes Bill. Absolutely speaking I think absolutely not ;D ;D

Arcturus... :)
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: gedeon on December 25, 2006, 09:57:22 AM
 I have just read some of your responses to Christmas.  I was feeling a little bad for my children this morning because we have decided to come out of this holiday again.  I say again,  because for years we did not celebrate Christmas and then our church decided that maybe there is nothing wrong with celebrating this day sjo for a few years we also celebrated it in a secular way just physically.  I would buy gifts for my children each year, and they loved it .  This year we decided to come out of it all together again and I was encouraged by the  posts here regarding the day. Kat your response is well researched. 
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: Kat on December 25, 2006, 05:55:04 PM
Hi gedeon,

I hope your children will come to appreciate your devotion to your beliefs, maybe in time they will.
I've been wondering how I was going to feel about today myself,
because I have decided to come out of this holiday again too.
I was in Worldwide Church of God for many years and did not abserve xmas then, when my children were young. 
But when I left that church and went to a Baptist I eventually went totally back to xmas, and was going along with it all for 10 yrs., untill this year. 
My girls are about grown now, so I didn't interfere we whatever they wanted to do.  So I have been kind of the odd man out around here, while they keep on going with it all. 
But it has not been that bad, they respect what I have decided, and I understand their wanting to continue with it. 
So we can take comfort in the knowledge that many of us are dealing with difficulties in this  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: Beloved on December 25, 2006, 07:16:07 PM
I am taking a break from house cleaning (throwing out all outdated stuff (flour beans cans etc).  All year I have been giving away a lot of things as an attempt to simplify my daily living and eliminate the clutter and distractions in my life so I can devote more time to my study of the Word.

I usually do not get into these discussions about Christmas but this year I have I am really more aware of futility of these discussions. This Sunday I listened to Kennedy expound on the need for Christians to stand up and take back Christmas and then listened to a Town Meeting show with various Theologians who argued in the other direction. I laughed at some of the nonsense they each side posited to support their view. As usual I was very saddened by the scriptural quotes that came from their own mouths that they may hear them replayed again at the Great throne.

I think Christmas is and will be like a lot of things ...another learning lesson for people. Since God has revealed some of His Truth to us we too now look at things differently 

For the Christians they think they are 'keeping' the birth of Christ… when it is actually it is more likely the time of his conception.   Christ truly brought light into the world when it was physically the darkest.  John the Babptist was the first earthly witness, though in utero.  The prolifers will have egg on their face and the world church will too.

They think it righteous because they celebrate the birth, when the scriptures clearly show that only earthy kings had b-day parties and even then no good came out of them (ie salome’s dance etc). They cannot and will not believe that Christ is most interested in death.... (death to self and carnal things)

(Joh 6:63 KJVR)
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

They like all the glitter and decorations and gifts because they are carnal. It is not their fault that they are blind and deaf. Those of us who do not celebrate these things should not feel that they are doing a better thing because if it were not of God you would be right in the middle of all of the celebrating and covered in tinsle and drooling over all the gadgets and things. 

I like what Joe said about the 24 / 7 Sabbath rest in Christ,  we really need to stop acting like Peter and asking “what about that guy (John)?  Christ laid it out… Never mind him… you ...follow Me.

God put each of us into our unique worldly situation… like Paul we each need to focus on our own maturity and run the race. We are to enjoy our families and friends, we are "in" the world but we are no longer “of” the world. So let your light outshine those artificial ones and let you love overfloweth and overcome the sentimental gush.    
 
I for one have put all of my treasured and gorgeous Christmas stuff to good use and have given them to people who are still living in the world.  I have used up the last of my paper and ribbons and now will give gifts (all year) wrapped in whatever theme I decide .

Whenever I hear the Christmas songs movies etc  I reflect on the Truth, that is often missing from them and truly enjoy the parts where it is present. On the other side I did excused my self during my office Christmas party because it was a totally carnal event. 

When someone wishes me a Merry Christmas,  If they are non believers .....I retort with a big smile ….”May God shine His light on you this year” because I truly want them to know what He has shown me and know that I cannot do this but that He can and will   

If they are Christians who know me a little more...., I will say in response   “My soul doth magnifies My Lord and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior”  There are so many other such verses that I use simply as a witness.

I no longer want to debate about issues that the other side is oblivious to. The clueless do not understand the spiritual.

(Mat 7:6 KJVR) 
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Dogs cannot eat this spiritual meat and you really p'd off the pigs because they cannot eat this truth either and they will only get upset with you.... Right now.... they are unlike the woman of Canaan who came from Tyre and Sidon to ask Jesus to heal her daughter…..they would be highly offended with this quote or remark. Since they are only doing what is natural ..... you still gotta love these dogs and pigs .....because God loves them

Beloved  (that goes for us donkeys, bovines chickens etc)


(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/Fool/kngt.gif)   
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: hebrewroots98 on December 25, 2006, 09:10:32 PM
Greetings everyone,

After reading all of the posts, I would like to share what I have persoanlly experienced at the expense of giving up these holidays. My husband and I gave up this 'christmas' about 10 years ago after learning from a book called "FOSSILIZED CUSTOMS" and a video called America's Occult Holidays (which we have both still and use it as a tool for those wanting to learn more about where America's Holidays have come from; and these are only available at certain places, not your traditional bookstores.)  We literally had a time with having withdrawl symptoms, but nothing we didn't get through.

However, our family members  thought that we had gone off of the deep end.  They just didn't get it at all, and  they still don't- even after attempts to explain it.  WE HAVE LITERALLY BEEN WRITTEN OFF BY SO MANY IMMEDIATE FAMILY MEMBERS OVER THIS ONE ISSUE (not participating in their hollidays anymore)THAT WE ARE HARDLY CONSIDERED 'FAMILY' ANYMORE. (We wonder if these holidays aren't idols of ones' heart perhaps?)    However, we wanted to OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MAN; (Jer.10 and Duet. 12.)  We had learned that not only were these American kept 'holidays' very pagan in origin but also that God said (in Duet 12) "do not say that I say that it is ok to celebrate like this b/c BABIES ARE DYING in the fires to molech (their pagan god.)".  Knowing of people in the occult whom have 'come out of her my people", and knowing what they did (AND STILL DO IN THE OCCULT WORLD TODAY, 2006) to innocent babies; just to please their 'god' (satan); there is NO WAY that we can participate and condone what is going on behind the scenes (illegally)in satanism TODAY.  TODAY MANY BABIES IN ALL PARTS OF THE WORLD HAVE BEEN SACRIFICED TO A FALSE god named satan!!!  IT has already happened TODAY AND LAST NIGHT in your city and you just didn't know it!!!   
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: hebrewroots98 on December 25, 2006, 10:16:04 PM
Sorry everyone; the last half of my previous post got deleted somehow??

What I was saying was that "the traditions of men make void the word of God", and that all of the American (traditional) Holidays that are on the American calendar (also called the Gregorian calendar) (except for Thanksgiving) have been handed down to we Americans from pagan sources.   Each holiday comes from pagan sources whom have just 'christianized them to cover up their origional roots.  God didn't like these holidays then (b/c babies were dying for the false gods back then;) and He doesn't like our holidays today b/c innocent babies are still dying on every major American Holiday (in this country and in every city the USA as well as in every city around the world.)  My husband and I dread and grieve these holidays (Halloween;IshtarEaster; Christmas etc..) b/c we know what happens and we can't control it, thus we don't feel very celebratory in our consciences when we know what some satanists are doing to please their god satan.  Our 8 yr old son has known and understood these things now for a few years.  We tell him the truth and he accepts it for what it is. He has no desire to celebrate these holidays.

We do however, celbrate hanukkah (even tho we aren't Jewish), b/c Jesus celebrated this 'tradition' of the Miricle of Lights".  Our (Daniel Isaiah) absolutely loves this time; he gets presents and we have a positive alternative and experience for him.  Of course we make Yeshua (Jesus) the center of it all as being our Miricle of lights and how we are supposed to follow HIS example of bieng a light in a dark world.  We do celebrate Thankskgiving as well.  We also try and bless someone everyday with some good deed, not just on a holiday.  This is not the easy life (it is easier to just go with the flow), yet, we feel good about 'doing the right thing' here that we feel that God has shown to us.

I hope that I cleared up some issues with you and that I did not offend any of you, as that was not my intention here.  We are told to uphold the truth and this is how I see the truth in this matter.

MUCH LOVE IN HIM, 
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: YellowStone on December 25, 2006, 10:25:22 PM
Arcturus, this is Golden and beautifully spoken :)

You wrote:

Bill

You ask...."if someone physically celebrates christmas, is this an absolute? Or is it possible to physically celebrate christmas but not spiritually?

Relatively speaking, I think that if someone celebrates christmas it may not necessarily be spiritually celebrated for that person. I think is is absolutely possible to spiritually celebrate christmas evey day but not necessarily only on one day of every year!.... yes Bill. Absolutely speaking I think absolutely not  

Arcturus...  


I agree with you 100%.  :)

There is a big difference between being "religiously" tied to Christmas and being spiritually free. For we are told to "Come out of her" (Scripture below) but what use is not going to church but still being spiritually strangled by its pagan beliefs. Coming out surely means being free from the stranglehold. This then provides a great opportunity to show love and share love with family and friends. I have found that at such times, many opportunities arise to share the truth. You are so right, we should spiritually celebrate the birth of Christ every single day. :)

Rev 18:4
Much Love to you,
Darren
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: Craig on December 25, 2006, 10:56:05 PM
I think this Christmas thread, or thanksgiving or easter, or birthdays, or, or, or.............. is getting away from what we should be concerned about.

Romans 14 should be studied.

Rom 14:14  I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Now, if you don't want to celebrate a holiday or other festive occasion, then by all means don't.  If you wish to celebrate then by all means do.  It is between you and God, I for one won't tell you what you should do, I think the verse in Romans speaks volumes.  If I tell you I don't celebrate Christmas or any other holiday it may be a stumbling block to some brothers/sisters, if I tell you I do celebrate holidays it may be a stumbling block to others. 

If what we do outwardly is of our own strength of spirit rather than God working in us, what have we accomplished? 

The great thing about this forum is, I believe, that all here are seeking the same goals and prize, and I hope we are not viewed as judgemental, legalistic, etc. 
We must let Christ work through US, not...US... through Christ, because if we do that then we my as well spit in the wind.

Merry Christmas! :D ;)

Craig
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: rocky on December 26, 2006, 01:23:00 AM
I think this Christmas thread, or thanksgiving or easter, or birthdays, or, or, or.............. is getting away from what we should be concerned about.

Romans 14 should be studied.

Rom 14:14  I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Now, if you don't want to celebrate a holiday or other festive occasion, then by all means don't.  If you wish to celebrate then by all means do.  It is between you and God, I for one won't tell you what you should do, I think the verse in Romans speaks volumes.  If I tell you I don't celebrate Christmas or any other holiday it may be a stumbling block to some brothers/sisters, if I tell you I do celebrate holidays it may be a stumbling block to others. 

If what we do outwardly is of our own strength of spirit rather than God working in us, what have we accomplished? 

The great thing about this forum is, I believe, that all here are seeking the same goals and prize, and I hope we are not viewed as judgemental, legalistic, etc. 
We must let Christ work through US, not...US... through Christ, because if we do that then we my as well spit in the wind.

Merry Christmas! :D ;)

Craig

Thanks Craig.  your post enspired me to read the 14th chapter of Romans and i love the ending. 

Rom 14:23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.


and this one

Joh 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.


Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: stego on December 26, 2006, 02:10:21 AM
Hey all,
    Craig I thought that was a very good scripture you brought out.  I think it doesn't matter what physical thing we do or don't do as long as whatever we do is done in the spirit of love.  Love for God, and love for each other. 


Peace,
    Sean
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: mari_et_pere on December 26, 2006, 12:57:32 PM

It's sad that our country is so caught up in the nonsense of Christmas. That being said, God is in control. If His will has room for Christmas to be so shameless and disgusting, then so be it.

M@tt
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: kennymac on December 26, 2006, 03:23:29 PM
Hello,

The meaning of Christmas, today, is the birthdate of Jesus, regardless of it's origen, the average person believes this day to be the day that Christ was born. God has allowed this day to be a day when a large portion of humanity comes together to celebrate His being.

Please excuse my ignorance, in reading the posts it left me wondering about these things.  I was hoping that one of you would share with me your personal feelings. I am not talking about doctrine, history supports that Christmas has it's roots in paganism, but truly what is it that you are feeling on this day?? What do you do on Christmas, what are your thoughts??? Do you  feel that you are glorifying the Lord in some way or that by seperating youself there is some type of spiritual reward?? Do you feel that family that chooses to participate in traditional Christmas activities are benefiting from your decision not participate??  Do you feel society as a whole benefits in some type of way?? Is it just so repulsive for you to know the origen behind the day, the only way you can have peace is to seperate yourself??

My intent is not to offend, I would like to have a deeper understanding of what you are feeling and what motivates you to isolate yourself from friends and family on Christmas day? I know that this must be difficult for you so there must be many reasons for your choice that I have never thought about.

I have always viewed Christmas as a great day to share truth. The world is starving, there is a famine of the true word.

19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.  

God bless,

Kennymac

Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: hillsbororiver on December 26, 2006, 04:47:33 PM
Hi kennymac, I will answer some of your questions to the best of my understanding all my reponses are in purple .

Hello,

The meaning of Christmas, today, is the birthdate of Jesus, regardless of it's origen, the average person believes this day to be the day that Christ was born. God has allowed this day to be a day when a large portion of humanity comes together to celebrate His being.

While I agree that "God has allowed" this day (Christmas) to be what it is, I don't believe that a very large portion of humanity meditates on the significance of the birth, life & death of our Lord, nor does much of humanity contemplate what His Spirit is accomplishing now.

What I do see is crass commercialism which merchandises away most of what many claim this day represents, greed, envy, resentment and many lusts are encouraged even as many charitable functions do works in helping the less fortunate among us, why is it more important to feed a hungry person on December 25 rather than June 19th? or August 11th?
 

Please excuse my ignorance, in reading the posts it left me wondering about these things.  I was hoping that one of you would share with me your personal feelings. I am not talking about doctrine, history supports that Christmas has it's roots in paganism, but truly what is it that you are feeling on this day??

My own personal feelings are that I enjoy seeing friends and family (as I do most days) but the pressure to follow traditions that often give people a sense of anxiety especially in regard to buying, decorating, giving, etc. can be overwhelming to those who feel they are not "measuring up" to some TV commercial that is propagating the ultimate retail bonanza.

My own feelings are that Thanksgiving is a more "spiritual" day for many since this day carries very little baggage or expectations other than gathering with family to share a meal together thankfully for all that has been provided for us and our families and friends. But again this is something that I do way more than one day a year, it is becoming a constant state of mind even if the gathering is not an every day occurance.      

 What do you do on Christmas, what are your thoughts???

Is the food ready? What time does the game come on?  ;D

Just kidding (sort of), I tend to go with the flow, if anyone wants to discuss the life and ministry of Jesus all the better.  

Do you  feel that you are glorifying the Lord in some way or that by seperating youself there is some type of spiritual reward??

I personally do not seperate myself but I can understand those who do, the bigger question is what example do we set or how consistantly are we there for family, friends and neighbors the other 364 days a year? How often do we contemplate the significance of Jesus Christ in our life during Christmas or any other day?

Do you feel that family that chooses to participate in traditional Christmas activities are benefiting from your decision not participate??  Do you feel society as a whole benefits in some type of way?? Is it just so repulsive for you to know the origen behind the day, the only way you can have peace is to seperate yourself??

As I alluded to previously I feel that if we are consistant in how we live our lives day to day, a kind or encouraging word, a helping hand, a sympathetic ear and a willingness to share the source of our joy when presented with the opportunity (no matter the calander date) then we are definitely benefitting those who are in our circle of friends, neighbors and family.

My intent is not to offend, I would like to have a deeper understanding of what you are feeling and what motivates you to isolate yourself from friends and family on Christmas day? I know that this must be difficult for you so there must be many reasons for your choice that I have never thought about.

I hope this has helped in your understanding.

I have always viewed Christmas as a great day to share truth. The world is starving, there is a famine of the true word.

As there is the other 364 days (365 in leap year)  ;)

19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.  (Only or especially on December 25? Or every day?)

God bless,

Kennymac

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe


Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: Kat on December 26, 2006, 05:04:28 PM

Hi kennymac,

I realize that you are sincerely trying to understand why some choose not to participate in Christmas.
And I will try to explain my feelings about it. 
I know that most people do not understand the pagan origin of Christmas and don't care or want to know about it.  But I do know it and I do care about it. 
I am honestly trying to look at this from Christ's prospective, seriously what does He think about all this.
I do not feel that the things I would be doing at Christmas, would be serving Him spiritually.  Not that I'm trying to be superior to those who do observe Christmas, but because I believe it is worldly, and for me personally, that's what I am trying to get away from.
I am the only one in my family, immediate and extended, that does not participate in Christmas.
When I decided to stop participating, I gave a brief explaination of why, anybody that wanted to know more I explained more for them. 
Do I go around telling them what they are doing is wrong, no, I let them do what they desire and keep my peace. 
I do not seperate myself from them, but I didn't go Christmas shopping, I didn't help set up a tree, I didn't go caroling, I didn't go to any 'Christmas' parties, and I didn't exchange presents Christmas day.  I did prepare a meal that day, like I do most other days.  We all shared a nice day together, and I do not feel like my not participating in those particular things hindered them, so we all feel like things were ok this way.
So I hope you can better understand my feelings.  This is something I have decided, it is something that I do not want to go along with anymore, this is for me  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on December 26, 2006, 05:49:06 PM
These scriptures and thoughts came to my mind as I was reading this thread.

James 1 : 27 External religious worship, religion as it is expressed in outward acts that is pure and unblemished in the sight of God the Father is this : to visit and help and care for the orphans and widows in their affliction and need, and to keep oneself unspotted and uncontaminated from the world.

2 ;14. What is the use my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no good works to show for it. Can such faith save his soul?

For me the above scriptures warn against being a hypocrite for the sake of saving or preserving other peoples emotions or comfort zones in Babylonian practises….yet we need to have wisdom, understanding and compassion for those who are still blind. We need not join them either or unite with them but we can be separate and holy without being full of prideful condemnation and merciless superiority.

 For me, we know about the origin of Christmas and Easter and in my family we recognise  that there is  no separation of State and Church on this one. Both State and Church we believe have united against God in their hatred for His Son to celebrate Christmas and Easter. Individually each of us will have our own way to negotiate our particular circumstances and deal with the relevant persons involved in our respective families.

We have declared ourselves to the family. We have made our stand and have not done so to coerce or condemn or change or put pressure on anyone. Only the Spirit of God can make the blind see but we also believe that we do not have to act as if we too are blind to make anyone feel accepted or approved. We will not exchange gifts on or because of being made merchandise of by the worldly systems of man made traditions.  This stand has been accepted because we have stated that giving should not be once a year but a way of life just like going to Church should not be once a week but should be continuously mindful of the presence of Christ within and not confined to a Church address. We are educating our son into this understanding that giving is all year not once a year and the carnality lust of the flesh and eyes is being weaned off of him through our new found liberty in the spirit of Christ.

2 cor 5 : 16 Consequently, from now on we estimate and regard no one from a purely human point of view in terms of natural standards of value. No even though we once did estimate Christ from a human viewpoint and as a man, yet now we have such knowledge of Him that we know Him no longer in terms of the flesh…….as the carnal world and the Babylonian system would have us follow and assist in keeping alive in the flesh what is resurrected in the Spirit that being Christ. Christmas and Easter is a direct resistance to the resurrection as we see it…but that we see it we are grateful that we are  set free to see and realise this corruption and darkness that mis-leads and makes merchandise of many who do not see or know. These worldly celebrations of the flesh are heinous crimes of ignorance pride idolatry and carnality. It is part of the plan that we are no longer party to for which we have only God to thank and Jesus to praise for setting us apart in |His awesome style and Sovereignty and timing. ;)

This little story comes to mind……. :)

There was a poor Negro beggar who always occupied the bench in front on the pristine Church in the immaculate gardens of the Church. The Church goers always avoided to walk near him because he looked so poorly and they wanted to have nothing to do with him. One day a young princely man visited the Church….He saw the poor beggar and went straight up to him and took a seat right next to him.

“What are you doing here outside friend ? “came the soft poignantly tender voice from this stately princely man.

Without glancing up, the beggar sobbed…”I love Jesus and for years I have tried to get into that Church and they just won’t let me in.”

The Princely man took his arm around the beggar and consoled him saying,
“Don’t cry. I am He who you seek and I too have been trying to get into that Church they too will not have me either.!….so I just visit occasionally. “ :)

The beggar felt the compassion and understanding and love in the voice of the King of Kings and as he looked up to show his tear stained face….the Princely prince of peace had vanished to his sight leaving his peace, presence and love in the soul of this once poor beggar.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: rrammfcitktturjsp on December 26, 2006, 06:20:50 PM
To All,

  My heart is aching right now.  I hope and pray to the Lord that I am not stepping out of place.  This thread has seemed to darken the forum.  I believe that whether if one should celebrate a Holiday or not should be up to the individuals.

  I just feel so much tension in those that are participating in this thread.  I know that some of you have posted passionately about what you do and why.  But I believe based on what I have read that we have forgotten the most important thing.  We have forgotton our friends and our relationships with eachother.  This topic is creating some strife and dissension.  I know that this forum is to discuss our beliefs and questions and should be an open forum, but when it is going against this aim, then it creates tension and strife.

  Phillipians 4:8 - In conclusion, brothers, focus your thoughts on what is true, noble, righteous, pure, lovable, or admiarable, on some virture or on something praiseworthy.  I do not want to judge, I just simply wish to present the standard that should govern what we post and how we reply.  What we need to remember is this verse.   If you think that the posts would not edify or live up to this verse, then I would exhort you to post something that does live up to this verse.  It is possible to be able state your practices and beliefs in a way that is not offensive to others and represent your point of view. 

  I am asking that each of you pray before posting on this topic.  This topic is seeming to open a whole bad can of whoopi worms, which are 25 feet long and very poisonous to those affected.  I am almost to the point of not even reading new topics on this particular thread, beucase I do not feel encouraged but I feel lowered in my spirits and things of that nature.

  I know and love all of you and am exhorting you to please let not let Christmas or anything divide us into camps.  What we need to realize we are all one on this journey no matter how walk or what path we take.  We need to see beyond the differences and show respect for eachother no matter what we believe in.  I am asking that careful thought and prayer go into each post. 

  This is perhaps my most negative posts uptodate, becuase I do not like to focus on the negative.  We need to look beyond and see eachother as God sees us.  As perfect children of God.  And when we can accept this point of view for eachother, then and only then, can we truly be one.  How can we get here, by not focusing on the negative and by looking beyond ourselves.

  Thanks for listening.

  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire
Title: Re: Christmas
Post by: hillsbororiver on December 26, 2006, 06:28:51 PM
Hi Gena,

Well thanks for the confidence,
I think I just have the time to do the hunting.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html

CHRISTMAS:

Most religious festivals of the world have something to do with sex or fertility. The Christian Holy Days are no different. They ARE in fact, little more than these same pagan festivals with Christian orientations. Christmas, for example IS the pagan Roman Saturnalia or sometimes called "The Festival of Lights." But even the Saturnalia predates the founding of Rome by centuries. This same festival can be traced to Babylon, and yes, you guessed it, to Egypt and their winter celebration of lights.

December 25 is near the winter solstice. It is the time when the sun after having been at the lowest point in the heavens, beings to rise over the world with renewed vigor and power. It was the time of heathen festivities in worship of the sun. The vernal equinox is the point where the sun crosses the celestial equator, about March 20, making day and night of equal length everywhere. This was the time of pagan spring festivals.

The day of December 25 acquired a new significance under the rule of Emperor Aurelian. He proclaimed this day as "Dies Natalis Invicti Solis," or the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun. This was because of a strange Eastern religion, Mithraism, whose god Mithras was identified with the Unconquered Sun. During the Saturnalia work of every kind ceased. Schools were closed.

The Roman Saturnalia was boisterous. But whatever the behavior of some Romans, others were simply merry. They ate big dinners, visited their friends, etc. The halls of the Romans were decked with boughs of laurel and of green trees, with lighted candles and with lamps--for the hovering spirits of darkness were afraid of light. Bonfires were lit in high places to strengthen the reviving sun in his course. Candles and green wreaths were given as presents, the streets were crowded with noisy processions of men and women carrying lighted tapers, and public places were decked with flowers and shrubs. The practice of giving and receiving presents was almost as common then as it is now at Christmas. Our present day "Christmas spirit" is actually the spirit of this old Roman festival.
All of this pagan nonsense found in the Christian Church came out of Rome and Greece and Egypt. The worship of sex and fertility pictured by symbols of sex and reproduction and fertility was a major part of pagan religion, and Egypt was the origin of many of these pagan practices. Did God reveal His truth to the Egyptians and expect Moses to learn the truths of God from the Egyptians? Moses learned all the pagan customs of Egypt, but he did not pass so much as one of them onto Israel. All that Moses taught Israel CAME FROM GOD.

SO WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?
What does God think of the religion and wisdom and customs of Egypt?
It means that virtually everything about Christendom—from its name ‘Church,’ to the architecture of their buildings, to the origin of their holy days and doctrines, is all straight out of heathenism,
of which God Almighty declares:
"LEARN NOT THE WAY OF THE HEATHEN… inquire NOT after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? Even so WILL I DO LIKEWISE" (Jer. 10:2 & Deut. 12:30).

All Christian doctrines that are not out of paganism are nonetheless, unscriptural.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hope this will help you Iris.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat





Since many folks do not read through an entire thread to familiarize themselves with all that was written (highly recommended) I am quoting Kat's early response which included a portion of an article dedicated to this subject and a link to the entire paper.

This is a matter between every individual and our Lord, ultimately there are no "winners" in a debate such as this, we should act in accordance to the wisdom and understanding He has granted us rather than temporal traditions of men, it is all of the heart. Not to glory in ourselves but to glorify Him.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe