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=> Off Topic Discussions => Topic started by: Deborah-Leigh on October 24, 2006, 07:05:27 PM
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Lets talk about this please.
Compare Judas.....He did not deny that he knew Jesus... he betrayed Him. I think he will be in the second death. Is this presumptuous? Am I being judgemental? I heard Ray say (Ref Mobile Conference ) and as I understood, that King David will be in the second death Lake of Fire because he was not converted and in his dying breath asked that the blood of his enemies be spilled....Not Christ-like at all!... ;D...
Compare Peter...He denied that he knew Jesus but did not betray Him as Judus had done.( Does this then explain what backsliding is do you think?)....After acquiring the knowledge of the Truth, Judas deliberatedly went to betray Christ? This brings to mind that knowledge of the Truth is no guarantee for salvation!....It is not sufficient to know Jesus we have to be like Jesus!
The difference between the many called and the chosen few as I understand it, is FAITHFULNESS not knowledge....Our faith is therefore tested is it not?....and is "more precious than gold...."....
How do you see this?
Arcturus. :)
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Hi Arcturus,
No, I think it is a safe bet Judas will experience the second death, more surprisingly (to me at least when it was first revealed) is so will John the Baptist.
Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Only those who came after the death and resurrection of Jesus have the New Covenant, the better Promise.
Judas betrayal had more to do with his lust of being in an earthly kingdom led by a conquering earthly messiah rather than a hatred of Jesus or a need for a quick 30 bucks.
Judas did not have a clue as to our Lord's meaning when He stated repeatedly that His Kingdom was not of this earth, Judas believed he could force the hand of Jesus, get Him to use the supernatural powers at His disposal (Judas probably witnessed thousands of miracles) to throw off Rome and set up an earthly kingdom. When Judas realized this wasn't going to happen he promptly hung himself.
Judas did not hate Jesus, he did not believe His Words, thought he knew better, wanted earthly gain, the things of this world, the praise of men, he wanted power and authority, he was pure carnality.
Interesting topic.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Don't ya'll know that Judas is the Anti-Christ? At least that's what I heard a pastor say. He believed Judas would be reincarnated in the future to become the anti-christ. They'll believe anything! Anyway, I would think that Judas will have to go through the second death, but then again, we all have to go through the 'second death.' Know what I mean?
Brian
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Joe
This is a MAJOR revelation! Some questions I would like you to answer please.
Does the Father of faith, Abraham , Gods friend also go to the second death? Do the Prophets, Elija, Elisha Moses join in the second death too?
I know Jesus refered to Servants (Hirelings) and Sons (Heirs) Are the Servants OT and the Heirs NT?
I have fastened my seat belt to get ready for your answer. I do not mind being blown away!...again!
Your description of Judas rings true in my heart especially as Ray points out that Judas kissed Jesus pationately as his identifying kiss that was not a peck on the cheak.
Thank you for sharing what you know.
Arcturus :)
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Hi Arcturus,
I think one thing that must be considered here,
is that neither Peter nor Judas had been given the Spirit at that time.
It was not until after His resurrection,
that they received the Holy Spirit and their eyes were opened to understand the truth.
Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Act 15:8 God, who knows everyone's heart, showed them he approved by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us.
v.9 He made no distinction between them and us, because he cleansed their hearts by faith. v.11 We certainly believe that it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ that we are saved, just as they are."
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Christ must be in you, as you must be in Him, to be one of the chosen elect.
Col 1:27 God did this because he wanted you Gentiles to understand his wonderful and glorious mystery. And the mystery is that Christ lives in you, and he is your hope of sharing in God's glory.
1Pe 5:10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you in Christ Jesus to his eternal glory, will restore you, establish you, strengthen you, and support you.
Hope I helped with these scripture.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi Kat
I was hoping to see you on this thread....
You make a valid point....NO ONE had been given the Spirit at that time.....The Spirit came UPON some of them...Elisha and the robe of Elija in symbolic reference UPON not WITHIN as you point out in Col 1 :27..."Christ lives IN you"
The Chosen are by election by God....Marie posted a very good slant on this I have still to ponder....Ref SLAVES TO SIN...General Discussions.
What Joe writes is begging the question....Are the OT Prophets the Servants and the NT faithful the SONS. I say yes...am looking for the second witness.....am hoping Gary will come up with something good as well as others who will be thinking about this subject.....
Thanks for your contribution
Arcturus :)
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Hi Brian
Good news....in fact great news :D...we do not all have to go through the second death which is the Lake of Fire. Some of us are going through the salting of fire NOW and will miss the second time around ;D I am praying that I am in that category! ;D :D ie NOT in the second time round.
Jesus advised us all to ask and pray that we Luke21:36..Keep awake....watch at all times and pray that you may be ACCOUNTED WORHTY....to stand in the presence of the Son of Man"
I take this to mean...Judas will fall on his face when he sees his Lord full of Glory...I do not think he will be able to stand up straight he will be so overwhelmed to see Jesus as King and ALIVE and well!.....Imagine it! I think Judas will be totally on his face!...mumbling through tears...I thought you were dead....I thought I was guilty....HOW can YOU possibly forgive me! OH...what... YOU ALREADY DID!...Sob sob sob and big big tears of overwrought emotion I imagine will be hitting Judas when he wakes up agian ;D
For me the question has been, Salting of fire NOW or Lake of Fire latter?....I have been neutral on this question....Who wants pain now? So, due to your post I can now place on record.. may God's Will be done which will be done anyway the only difference now with me is that I agree, I surrender, and I know that I haven't a clue what lies ahead that I am agreeing to now... I hope it is only tiny flecks of microscopic salt of fire now rather than a HUGE lake later! There I am on record! I have been dodging this and where do I stand? pressure to reply, for a few weeks now with even knowing what Jesus says in the Scripture...Pray Now that you will be accounted worthy to stand later!...
I believe that part of being human is experiencing that GOD can take me through ANYTHING!....Well here goes..... Note. This is not a challenge to God....just a very shy squeek.....a very small and maybe most unwise squeek.....I am not trying to get up in rank and file into Gods Kingdom. I just want to bypass the Lake....know God better and live a life in the fullness of the faith OF Christ.....in Him as Gods scriptures point out.....Yes I desire that!....YES!
Has anyone else felt this pressure to choose....pain now or later?...I know I do not choose...God designed my choice and knew before I did what I would decide!....There...I am grateful to God for this but still feel a little uncertain about just how much purification lies ahead!...Feels like I am on my way to Calvery!....Is there anyone out there who knows this place I am in?.....
I think I know what you mean....first death in Adam....second death the carnality of flesh.... That would make the lake of fire the third death if I get your drift Brian..... ??? I perfer to keep things simple though!....First death, ...Christ crusified....Second death....you don't want to be there!
Arcturus :)
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Hi Arcturus,
I have been rereading Ray's article 'Exposing the Secret Rapture, and this what Ray says.
http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm ----------------------------
Furthermore, it may be deduced that the dead and the living are raised and honored together if we look very carefully at Rev. 11:15-18. The seventh and last trumpet (verse 15) trumpets and God’s indignation arrives (Ver. 18) and it is the time to: "... give their wages to Thy slaves, the prophets ..." I believe we would have to concede that these include the prophets of old who have long been put to repose. So then, these prophets would be rising from the dead along with the living being gathered to Christ at this seventh and last trump, "... in the presence of our Lord Jesus with all His saints" (I Thes. 3:13). Lk. 13:28-30 also confirms the fact that, "... whenever you should be seeing Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and ALL the prophets in the kingdom of God ..."
I am certainly not claiming this as a major proof, only as a possibility. Even if these "lamenting and gnashing their teeth" are those not raised until the great white throne of judging, the indication is that these prophets will already be "in the kingdom of God" (Ver 28).
As to the statement that the gathering of Christ’s elect in Matt 24 is only the living, I will suggest that it doesn’t say living or dead. However, the word "elect" by itself certainly can include the dead, but I know of no law of grammar that could make the word "elect," exclude the dead. These references regarding the gathering of Christ’s elect do no state specifically whether any of them are alive or dead. However, as Rev. 11:18 includes both the "small and great," and particularly "the prophets," and "the saints," it would have to include BOTH. The "prophets" have mostly died many centuries ago (yet they will be gathered here), and the "saints" include both dead and many saints who will be alive at Christ’s coming. So clearly, both (the living and the dead), are included in the same event.
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I am still studying this subect.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Kat
Thank you for sharing.
That makes absolute sence to me. Yes I agree!
That is what the Scripture says...Yes!
...and only God will know who He calls/draggs. As I understand...Only Jesus knows His own...not even Paul took for granted that He belonged.....
I quote Ray...Jesus knows who are His. We don't. We hope. We believe...He has not told any of us for an absolute certainty that we will not fall or fail. There are those whom God will predestine to start out doing His will but who will be predestined before the end of their lives to fail. That is why God has given us such Scriptures as Heb 10 : 26-29 and 1 Cor 9 :27.....unquote
So backsliding is predestined....what do you think?..in as much as God does not MAKE us backslide...we volunteer to!...HE knows who will backslide and who won't backslide because HE CAUSES our outcomes and we volunteer our direction. ???.. I know for sure that God alone changes us and HE alone is able to make all grace abound towards us 2 Cor 9 : 8 And God is able to make all grace, every favor and earthly blessing come to you in abundance, so that you may always and under all circumstances and whatever the need be self-sufficient, possessing enough to require no aid or support and furnished in abundance for every good work and charitable donation) AMPL....am sure that there are better translations!..but this makes the point....GOD IS ABLE we are UNable....!
Arcturus :)...in learning :D..and back to the drawing board for me ::) to re-study the Myths of free will!..We SIN VOLUNTARILY..DO WE ALSO BACKSLIDE VOLUNTARILY???????? ???
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Hello Arcturus,
For me, I cannot say who will or will not partake of the second death, be in the lake of fire. I will leave that to the righteous judge, seeing He knows the intent of our hearts and minds.
Judas was of the mindset of having a earthly reign of Christ, purely carnal not seeing the inner spiritual truths that are hidden from the world. And it is widely accepted today of those waiting for a earthly reign, not seeing that He reigns in the hearts and minds of mankind, a Spiritual kingdom.
If that is all Christ is, a physical King, that would not be much of a purpose for God. He would just come here and whip all of our hides and be done with it, take control and force His rules upon us. His kingdom is far greater, a spiritual kingdom through an inner creation molding us into His own character. Now, that is a huge undertaking that far surpasses our understanding, yet His ways are higher than ours. Conquering the hearts and minds of mankind, now that truly takes a King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
When God does something, it will not return to Him void. What is the greatest gift He has given us? You are right in saying 'faith', and it is more than just knowing that He is the Christ. Judas knew that, the devil knows it, and the vast majority knows it. So, what is this faith so preciously given to us, that He would go so far to humble Himself to the flesh, to show us the Way through many miracles and the suffering He bore on the cross? This is a question that we all need to search for, seeing that God loves us that much, He deserves it.
Faith is like a seed, and as any farmer knows, one cannot plant a green seed, it must be dead to produce a harvest. Here is the importance of growing from knowing Him crucified to being crucified with Christ. Now, that seed will grow and produce good fruit. That seed and fruit must be protected and cultivated, if not the weeds will take it over and become worthless. Faith without works is dead. That faith given is tested through many trials and tribulations. God is working in the obedient followers of Christ. We are very blessed and privledged to suffer for His namesake. We are in good company.
(Psa 80:14 LITV) O God of Hosts, we beg You, return! Look down from Heaven and see and visit this vine,
(Psa 80:15 LITV) and the vineyard which Your right hand has planted, and on the son You made strong for Yourself.
(Psa 80:16 LITV) It is burned with fire, cut down; they perish at the rebuke of Your face.
(Psa 80:17 LITV) Let Your hand be on the man of Your right hand; on the son of man whom You have made strong for Yourself.
(Psa 80:18 LITV) So we will not backslide from You; make us live, and we will call on Your name.
(Psa 80:19 LITV) O Jehovah, God of Hosts, turn us again! Cause Your face to shine, and we will be saved.
God bless,
Gary
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For me, I cannot say who will or will not partake of the second death, be in the lake of fire. I will leave that to the righteous judge, seeing He knows the intent of our hearts and minds.
Gary,
Without judging anyone, but with the understanding that all who died before the death and resurrection of our Lord were still under the Old Covenant, the Law of Moses, death.
If Abraham, David and John the Baptist are not yet "saved" I think it is a given Judas isn't either.
Israel's opportunity for redemption does not come "until the fulness of the Gentiles come in."
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob
Chapter 11 of Romans is very informative on this subject.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Hi all,
Just a thought I had while reading the posts:
What about the saints who were raised after Jesus' resurrection?
Mat 27:51-53 VW
(51) Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
(52) and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
(53) and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and were manifest to many.
Joe said:
Without judging anyone, but with the understanding that all who died before the death and resurrection of our Lord were still under the Old Covenant, the Law of Moses, death.
Wouldn't the above verses negate this statement? They died before the death an resurrection of our Lord. And would it be too presumptious to think that they had the oppurtunity to believe on the Lord after they were raised?
What about Judas? Didn't he repent after he betrayed the Lord? Wouldn't that mean that he was forgiven?
Mat 27:3-4 VW
(3) Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He was condemned, repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
(4) saying, I have sinned by betraying innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? You see to it.
Also I only see the one's whos names are not written in the Lambs book of life cast into the lake of fire at the second resurrection.
Rev 20:11-15 VW
(11) And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heavens fled away. And there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God. And books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, out of the things which were written in the books.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one, according to their works.
(14) And Death and Hades were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
(15) And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire.
Any comments?
Peace,
Andy
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Hi all,
Just a thought I had while reading the posts:
What about the saints who were raised after Jesus' resurrection?
Andy,
Do you believe they were raised with incorruptable bodies and ascended into heaven?
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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What Joe writes is begging the question....Are the OT Prophets the Servants and the NT faithful the SONS. I say yes...am looking for the second witness.....am hoping Gary will come up with something good as well as others who will be thinking about this subject.....
Arcturus :)
Hello Arcturus,
The following is from Ray's paper "The 12 Truths" http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm
This is from # 9,
Turn to Hebrews 11. Although Elijah is not mentioned by name in this chapter, he is, nonetheless, included, as he certainly was "…OF the PROPHETS" (Verse 32). What do the Scriptures say regarding the present condition of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham & Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, and the prophets, of whom Elijah was one? Are they alive today? Did they receive the promises. Are they in heaven? Hold on, cause I’m about to knock your socks off:
"These ALL DIED IN FAITH, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES… For they that say such things declare plainly that they SEEK a country… they DESIRE a better country, that is a HEAVENLY… And ALL THESE, having obtained a good report through faith, [here comes the second witness that they are dead and not in heaven]… RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE: God having provided something better thing FOR US, that THEY without US should NOT BE MADE [future tense, not past tense—it hasn’t happened YET] perfect" (Verses 13-14, 16, 39-40).
WOW!
I would venture to say that not a thousand people alive on earth today have ever seen or had the above Scripture explained to them. Yet this Scripture is in perfect harmony with ALL other Scripture, but TOTALLY CONTRADICTS ALL CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.
ALL of the men and women of faith, the fathers, the patriarchs, and prophets are DEAD.
ALL of them died "looking for a country & home afar off," which they never received.
ALL these received a "good report," but they received NO PROMISES.
ALL these "desired a heavenly" home, but they NEVER RECEIVED IT.
ALL these will remain dead until WE are given OUR promises.
OUR promise is better: "God having provided some BETTER THING FOR US."
WE are to become "perfect" Col. 4:12; Eph. 4:13; Gal. 3:3; Phil. 3:15; Col. 1:28; etc,
WE are to become "perfect" BEFORE the saints of old; BEFORE Moses & Elijah.
THEY are not only made perfect AFTER us, but are made perfect THROUGH US!
Not even John the Baptist is as great as the very least in the Kingdom of God (Matt. 11:11).
Grace was not given to save the saints of old. Grace came by JESUS CHRIST, not by Moses, neither to nor for Moses (John 1:17). Hebrews 11, speaking of ALL the saints that were before us clearly declares that, " for they without [Gk: ‘apart from’] US should NOT be made perfect [or ‘complete’].
Hebrews was written at least a whole generation after the crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord, and at that time the saints of old had not yet received their promises, so guess what? They are all still dead in their graves awaiting the Second Resurrection, as they cannot be made perfect or complete except though those who come up in the First resurrection. And no one is ever made "complete" except through Jesus Christ (Col. 2:10).
Have you not read:
"Unto whom it was revealed, that NOT unto themselves, but unto US [‘Now ALL these things happened unto them for examples, and they are written for OUR admonition, upon whom the ends of the eons are come’ I Cor. 10:11] they did minister the things, which are now reported unto YOU by them that have preached the gospel unto YOU with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Wherefore gird up the loins of YOUR mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the GRACE that is to be brought unto YOU [not ‘them’—they DIED not receiving the promises made to them] at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:12-13).
Jesus Christ is the "wave sheaf" and the "firstfruit," but the saints and patriarchs of old were not "firstfruits" at all. Jesus, not they, was the FIRST of the firstfruitst" (I Cor. 15:20& 23), and WE, not they, are also "firstfruits" (James 1:18 & Rev. 14:4). When will we believe the Scriptures? The FIRST to be called will be the LAST TO BE SAVED, and the LAST to be called will be the FIRST TO BE SAVED (Matt. 19:30 and 20:16). My, what we can learn when we begin to obey the commandments of GOD.
All Scripture is inspired, and all Scripture is true, but no one Scripture fully explains and interprets itself. Remember that should someone wants to show you from "a" single Scripture that there is no end to the lake of fire, for example.
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Hi Andy,
I think I see what your saying.
The saints of Jesus' day, died before His death and resurrection, so could not be in the kingdom.
But they were resurrected back to physical life, after Christ had risen.
So now they were able to receive the Holy Spirit and Christ could live in them,
and if they were one of the chosen, would be in the kingdom.
I had never looked at it that way before.
They were so close, lived at the time of Jesus,
but died before they could receive His Spirit.
So God, in His astounding love for those few, miraculously brought them back to life,
to give them what they just barely missed.
How great is our God :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi all,
Just a thought I had while reading the posts:
What about the saints who were raised after Jesus' resurrection?
Andy,
Do you believe they were raised with incorruptable bodies and ascended into heaven?
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
Sorry Joe, you missed my point... You said:
Only those who came after the death and resurrection of Jesus have the New Covenant, the better Promise.
That's the point I'm trying to make,,, since there was a resurrection of "Old covenant" saints at the time of Christ's resurrection.. wouldn't that quaify them for the "New covenant?" Do you see what I'm saying? It Has nothing to do whether they were raised incorruptable.. or if they assended,,, (that's a study I'll have to do before I can digress into that). But I just was thinking that they would have been given oppurtunity to receive Jesus while alive and resurrected. Wouldn't that be qualifaction for old covenant saints to receive the new covenant promise? We also don''t know the names of those who were raised either,, Maybe John the Baptist was among them.. Do we know for sure?
Also I think we need to be careful who we judge to be destined to the lake of fire.
That's why I brought up the verses about Judas repenting. I don't think we have the qualifacations of be the judge of Judas's heart.
You also said:
No, I think it is a safe bet Judas will experience the second death, more surprisingly (to me at least when it was first revealed) is so will John the Baptist.
Do you know that for a fact? Do you know his heart? and do you know the Lord's plans and intentions for Judas? Only those whos names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. Do you know if his name is not in the book of life.
Rev 20:15 VW
(15) And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire.
I'm thinking that we need to be careful about judging who's who in the lake of fire. Only God knows the heart. And His Plan and Will is perfect, not ours.
Peace,
Andy
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Hi Andy,
I think I see what your saying.
The saints of Jesus' day, died before His death and resurrection, so could not be in the kingdom.
But they were resurrected back to physical life, after Christ had risen.
So now they were able to receive the Holy Spirit and Christ could live in them,
and if they were one of the chosen, would be in the kingdom.
I had never looked at it that way before.
They were so close, live at the time of Jesus,
but died before they could receive the Spirit.
So God, in His astounding love for those few, miraculously brought them back to life,
to give them what they just barely missed.
How great is our God :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Yes! thank you Kat!
I have sure a hard time conveying my thoughts and you cleared up what I was trying to say very nicely,
Bless your heart Kat
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Well Dangit, I guess I was pre-destined to backslide. Oh well, hello Lake of Fire.
Love in Christ
Longhorn
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Thanks Joe,
That is what I was looking for,
but I could not remember where it was.
That makes it clear, no one that came before Christ will be in the kingdom.
It takes all of us working together, to come to understanding of a thing.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Thanks Joe,
That is what I was looking for,
but I could not remember where it was.
That makes it clear, no one that came before Christ will be in the kingdom.
It takes all of us working together, to come to understanding of a thing.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Kat,
You are very welcome.
There are 2 judgements, the elect in their lifetime, and everyone else at The White Throne Judgement.
Read Hebrews Chapter 11, the OT Prophets were not given the same promise (Old Covenant) as those who came after the death (sacrifice) and resurrection of Jesus.
Andy,
I certainly agree and can see (as Kat wrote) that those who were raised from the dead at the time of Jesus' resurrection were given the opportunity to receive the "better promise," the New Covenant, but they were still "in the flesh" and were yet imperfect, they were not raised to immortality.
Judas died before Christ did, are you saying Judas was one of those who were resurrected at the time of Jesus' resurrection? John the Baptist also died before Jesus, that is why it is written that the least in the Kingdom is greater than he, John the Baptist was still under the Old Covenant.
This statement by Jesus would have to be untrue if John the Baptist was raised and given the New Covenant, unless of course he backslid and followed his flesh after his resurrection, but that is way too much speculation for me.
Luk 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
Kat, I love your statement "It takes all of us working together, to come to an understanding of a thing." It is so true, I am always thankful for the iron sharpening iron as we study together in this Forum.
His Peace and Wisdom to you all,
Joe
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(Rom 11:30 LITV) For as you then also disobeyed God, but now have obtained mercy by the disobedience of these,
(Rom 11:31 LITV) so also these now have disobeyed, so that they also may obtain mercy by your mercy.
(Rom 11:32 LITV) For God shut up all into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.
These verses are amazing to me. We obtain mercy because of their disobedience, and they will obtain mercy by our mercy. Yet we only receive mercy because of their disobedience. It is definetly all of and because of Him, there can be no boasting of one over another. We all, whether under the old or the new are totally reliant upon His mercy, because we all have been disobedient.
God bless,
Gary
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Amen Gary,
Excellent post.
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Hi Joe,
You said:
I certainly agree and can see (as Kat wrote) that those who were raised from the dead at the time of Jesus' resurrection were given the opportunity to receive the "better promise," the New Covenant, but they were still "in the flesh" and were yet imperfect, they were not raised to immortality.
Yes, that is my point exactally. On that we agree 100%. No where did I say that they were raised to incorruption and immortality.
Actually they would no longer be under the old testment but under the new. See what I'm saying? So that would not contradict any scripture pertaining to Heb 11.
You said:
Judas died before Christ did, are you saying Judas was one of those who were resurrected at the time of Jesus' resurrection? John the Baptist also died before Jesus, that is why it is written that the least in the Kingdom is greater than he, John the Baptist was still under the Old Covenant.
All of the saints that were resurrected after Christ were also dead before he died,, weren't they? or am I wrong? I'm not nor did I say that Judas and John the Baptist were among them. I believe I stated that we don't know the names. Now here's what the scripture says about John the Baptist.
Mat 11:11 CLV
(11) "Verily, I am saying to you, Not among those born of women has there been roused a greater than John the baptist. Yet he who is smaller, in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he.
This verse could indeed conclude that John the Baptist will not be in the first resurrection but does it conclude that his name is not written in the book of life and therefore is cast into the lake of fire along with the unbelievers?? That's my question concerning the Old testament saints.
Now Judas is another story. Was he a saint? Do we know. The scripture says that Jesus chose the twelve and one of them was a devil.
Joh 6:70-71 KJVR
(70) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
(71) He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
But it also says about Judas:
Mat 27:3-4 KJVR
(3) Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
(4) Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
So in your statement:
No, I think it is a safe bet Judas will experience the second death, more surprisingly (to me at least when it was first revealed) is so will John the Baptist.
My question is ,,, how can we know for sure that Judas' name is not written in the book of life? Only those whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:12-15 KJVR
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
I'm not saying one way or the other. I'm saying that we cannot and should not be sitting in judgement over him at this time. We are not in that position to do so.
He may very well end up in the lake of fire,, I don't know and I don't think that can be proven. He may end up getting anywhere from 1 to 40 stripes rather that given the portion with the unbelievers.
Luk 12:46-48 KJVR
(46) The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
(47) And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
(48) But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
God is the righteous judge and he gives every man acording to His righteous judgement. I don't see every receiving the exact same judgement at the second resurrection, but according to the things that are written in the books, and according to our deeds done in our flesh.
Thanks Joe for this discussion. I'm enjoying this and I hope you don't think that I'm arguing with you. I have nothing but love and respect for you my brother.
Peace,
Andy
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Hi Andy,
You are right only those whose name is not in the book of life, will go to the lake of fire.
Do you know that for a fact? Do you know his heart? and do you know the Lord's plans and intentions for Judas? Only those whos names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. Do you know if his name is not in the book of life.
But is there scripture that may give us the answer about Judas in particular?
Mat 26:24 The Son of Man goes, as it has been written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
It is pretty clear to whom these verses are referring to, Judas.
'That the Scripture might be fulfilled.'
Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, Who did eat of my bread, Hath lifted up his heel against me.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi Andy,
You are right only those whose name is not in the book of life, will go to the lake of fire.
Do you know that for a fact? Do you know his heart? and do you know the Lord's plans and intentions for Judas? Only those whos names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. Do you know if his name is not in the book of life.
But is there scripture that may give us the answer about Judas in particular?
Mat 26:24 The Son of Man goes, as it has been written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
It is pretty clear to whom these verses are referring to, Judas.
'That the Scripture might be fulfilled.'
Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, Who did eat of my bread, Hath lifted up his heel against me.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
God bless you Kat! You always come up with the right things to say. You're such a blessing to this fellowship.
I leave all judgement to the Righteous Judge.
Joh 5:22 KJVR
(22) For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Peace,
Andy
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I GOT IT!.....
Thank you Joe! ;D..quoting Ray...
..".THE SAINTS OF OLD HAD NOT YET RECIEVED THEIR PROMISES SO GUESS WHAT! THEY ARE......AWAITING THE SECOND RESURECTION...."
I GOT IT JOE......THE SECOND RESURECTION.....THE WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT!....the White Throne judgement.... :'(.......
I had read this before from Ray's 12 Truths's but had not SEEN IT
Does this scripture open up for us another issue?....Matt 5 : 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness, your uprightness and your right standing with God is more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven....
Why didn't Jesus say...For I tell you, unless your righteousness, your uprightness and your right standing with God is more than that of the SAINTS AND PROPHETS....etc....? Could this mean we are in the 11 hour...Matt 20: 1, 6,7...For the Kingdom of heaven is like the owner of an estate who went out in the morning along with the dawn to hire workmen for his vineyard. 6 And about the eleventh hour, he went out and found stillothers standing around, and said to them, Why do you stand here idle all day? 7..They answered him, Because nobody has hired us. He told them, You go out into the vinyard also and you will get whatever is just and fair....
This forum looks like a vinyard to me...."You are the branches, He is the vine..... :)
Arcturus.... :)...straining to SEE :D
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Just some thoughts...
Speaking about judgement now (dying daily) as opposed to judgement later (Lake of Fire), isn't this scripture telling us something about how this is balanced by God?:
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted, and thou art in anguish. (Luk 16:25 ASV)
A lifetime of judgements is better than Lake of Fire, but it seems that they are similar experiences. We know that the timing is different:
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming. (1Co 15:23 ASV)
[...] that God may be all in all. (1Co 15:28 ASV)
and that:
For God appointed us not into wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, (1Th 5:9 ASV)
Salvation is ultimately for all in Adam, but God's elect receive a great reward ahead of the rest of mankind. They begin to receive this in this present age:
For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
instructing us, to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world;
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works.
(Tit 2:11-14 ASV)
and what are those who endure to the end given?:
Faithful is the saying: For if we died with him, we shall also live with him:
if we endure, we shall also reign with him: if we shall deny him, he also will deny us: (2Ti 2:11-12 ASV)
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev 20:6 ASV)
That should be a huge enough reward, it is a marvelous privilege to have Christ in you in this present wicked age, and then to reign with Him for the millennium. Everyone gets the same payment in the end:
For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that was a householder, who went out early in the morning to hire laborers into his vineyard.
And when he had agreed with the laborers for a shilling a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing in the marketplace idle;
and to them he said, Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise.
And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing; and he saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard.
And when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the laborers, and pay them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a shilling.
And when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received every man a shilling.
And when they received it, they murmured against the householder,
saying, These last have spent but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.
But he answered and said to one of them, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a shilling?
Take up that which is thine, and go thy way; it is my will to give unto this last, even as unto thee.
Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? or is thine eye evil, because I am good?
So the last shall be first, and the first last. (Mat 20:1-16 ASV)
We all walk by the same rule:
Brethren, I count not myself yet to have laid hold: but one thing I do, forgetting the things which are behind, and stretching forward to the things which are before,
I press on toward the goal unto the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye are otherwise minded, this also shall God reveal unto you:
only, whereunto we have attained, by that same rule let us walk. (Phi 3:13-16 ASV)
and should take heed:
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (1Co 10:12 ASV)
and put ourselves low:
When you are invited to a wedding feast, don't sit in the best place. Someone more important may have been invited.
Then the one who invited you will come and say, "Give your place to this other guest!" You will be embarrassed and will have to sit in the worst place. (Luk 14:8-9 CEV)
Please, your thoughts on this!
God bless you and keep you,
Eirik
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Thanks Joe for this discussion. I'm enjoying this and I hope you don't think that I'm arguing with you. I have nothing but love and respect for you my brother.
Peace,
Andy
Hello Andy,
The feeling is mutual Brother, I never felt you were arguing or debating, just seeking clarification. The Spirit has blessed me through your posts many times and I am truly thankful for your fellowship here, I am sure there are quite a few others here who would agree with me.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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There is not really a lake and there is not really fire. The elect who reigned for 1000 years is really the LOF.
Am I correct in this??
Those 500 who were resurrected I just always assumed were an average class of people, I never included the prophets in that bunch. I always wondered if they just continued living out another lifespan (much to the amazement of their family I would think). Does anyone know if Paul ever mentions them or what the spiritual *not-allowed* means. Thats another whole study topic. Why did that even happen???
gena
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Hi Gina,
Many of your questions are answered here;
http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html
The following is a portion from the article.
FIRE IN THE LAKE
The lake of fire presents us with another enigma if taken literally. A literal lake is a body of water, not fire. We learned that the Divine purifying presence of God is in this lake in the form of spiritual brimstone. If it were water in the lake, we might conclude that those thrown into this lake are to be washed. The Bible does use water as a symbol of washing away our dirty sins. However, giant spiritual character flaws need more than washing, they need to be obliterated if they are "wood, straw, and stubble." And even the "gold, silver, and precious stones" need to be purged and purified if they are to be perfected.
One cannot wash away the impurities of the carnal mind any more than one can wash away the impurities in gold ore by water. It takes power, and heat, and the molecular separating qualities of fire to purify gold ore. And likewise, water has little effect on eliminating wood, straw, and stubble. But put fire to this same wood, straw, and stubble, and it will be obliterated, annihilated, eradicated, and exterminated.
This is the lesson we are to learn from God’s spiritual fire. Spiritual fire will purify good qualities to total perfection but will obliterate character flaws to total extinction. And so it is that God uses spiritual fire to produce the greatest possible good, not to cause the severest possible pain and torture.
GOD IS CALLING YOU
TO BE A PART OF HIS MARVELOUS PLAN
Here is God’s plan:
"And God said, Let us make man in OUR IMAGE…" (Gen. 1:26).
"Ye [‘ye’ means ‘all of you’] therefore shall BECOME [it’s a process] perfect even has your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt. 5:48).
"But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to BECOME [it’s a process] the SONS OF GOD…" (John 1:12).
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the SONS OF GOD" (Rom. s8:14).
"The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the CHILDREN OF GOD: And if children, then heirs, HEIRS OF GOD and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also GLORIFIED TOGETHER. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature [and the whole creation] waits for the manifestation of THE SONS OF GOD" (Rom. 8:1618).
"And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For ye ARE the temple of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell IN them, and walk IN them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them [‘my people’ Rev. 18:4] and be ye separate, says the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be MY SONS AND DAUGHTERS, says the Lord Almighty" (II Cor. 6:16-18).
"But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the ADOPTION OF SONS. And because ye ARE SONS, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts crying Abba, Father. Wherefore you are no more a servant, but a SON; and if a SON, then an HEIR OF GOD through Christ" (Gal. 4:5-7).
"That ye may be blameless and harmless, THE SONS OF GOD, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world" (Phil. 2:15).
"For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing MANY SONS UNTO GLORY, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings" (Heb. 2:10).
"According as He has chosen us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight, in love designating us beforehand for the place of A SON…" (Eph. 1:4, Concordant Literal New Testament).
"Behold, what manner of love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called THE SONS OF GOD: therefore the world knows us not, because it knew Him not" (I John 3:1).
Now then, did God plan to call these sons? Did He have it all worked out in advance? Is there any chance of failure in bringing these Sons to glory? Let’s read it:
For whom He [GOD] did FOREKNOW, He also did PREDESTINATE to be conformed to THE IMAGE [Remember Gen. 1:26—"Let us make man in OUR IMAGE…"] of HIS SON, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did PREDESTINATE, them He also CALLED; and whom He called, them He also JUSTIFIED: and whom He justified, them He also GLORIFIED" (Rom. 8:29-30).
It should be noted that the verbs in this verse are in the Greek aorist tense and should more properly be translated, PREDESTINATES, CALLS, JUSTIFIES, AND GLORIFIES. This is not a past and completed act only, but a continuous process into the future.
God is calling Sons and Daughters into Glory! All that He "foreknew" He will bring to fruition. But for what purpose? To roll ‘round heaven all day? To play harps and sing gospel music for all eternity? To glut ourselves on dainty foods like some fat monarch? What is God’s first order of the day when all these SONS of God are manifested? Just what will they do? Or will they do nothing? We read part of the answer in one of the Scriptures quoted above. Let’s read a little more. There is a GRAND CHALLENGE AND MARVELOUS WORK waiting to be accomplished by the manifested SONS OF GOD:
THE WORLD IS GROANING FOR IT KNOWS NOT WHAT
"For the earnest expectation of the creation waits FOR THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD" (Rom. 8:19).
Notice this verse in a few other translations:
"For the EAGER outlook of creation ARDENTLY awaits the revealing of the Sons of God" (The Emphasized New Testament).
"For the LONGING of the creation LOOKS EAGERLY for the time when [the glory of] the sons of God shall be revealed" (The Epistles of Paul by Conybeare).
"All creation is YEARNING, LONGING to see the manifestation of the sons of God" (The New Testament in Modern Speech).
Or the creation waits with EAGER LONGING for the revealing of the sons of God" (The Revised Standard Version).
"THE WHOLE WORLD IS ON TIPTOE to see the wonderful sight of the sons of God coming into their own" (Phillips’ Translation).
To be sure, it is GOD Who is telling us that the whole creation is groaning in earnest expectation. It is groaning for it knows not what, but GOD KNOWS! In other words, God is telling US, who are growing in spiritual truths, what it is that the whole world and indeed the whole creation is in desperate need of—the saving power of the Sons of God. We ARE the BODY OF CHRIST! What Christ does, he DOES THROUGH US!
WHY? Why are they waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God? Of what value will these Sons be to them? We can see why the Sons themselves would want to be manifested as such with God their Father and Elder Brother Jesus Christ, but why would all the wicked humanity of the entire "CREATION" be "waiting in EARNEST expectation?" What in the world is taking place here?
The church teaches that after all the Sons and Daughters of God are in their glory, the rest of the world will be tortured eternally by real fire in a terrorist hellhole of hopeless doom (never mind the fact that God says "there will be NO MORE DOOM") (Rev. 22:3, Concordant Literal New Testament).
Seriously, when all the Sons and Daughters of God are manifested IN THEIR GLORY, why would the ENTIRE CREATION be awaiting this event with almost uncontrollable bated breath, excitement, and anticipation? WHY? What is it that the churches have never told you? What is God going to do with all these glorified Sons and Daughters?
You have heard enough lies, now let’s read God’s Truth. Here is one of the most profound and all-encompassing Scriptures in the entirety of the Bible:
"For the earnest expectation of the creature [creation] waits for THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD. For the creature [creation] was MADE subject to VANITY [‘…surely, EVERY MAN IS VANITY’-- Psalm 39:11], NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [GOD] Who has subjected the same in HOPE. Because the creature [creation] itself also shall be DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption [corruption includes DEATH] into THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD. For we know that THE WHOLE CREATION GROANS AND TRAVAILS IN PAIN together until now" (Rom. 8:19-22).
WOW! Let me point out a few marvelous things in this verse. Notice the chronological order of things in this Scripture and see how it contradicts the terrible teaching of orthodox doctrine:
First the Sons of God are manifested or shown to be what they really are—SPIRITUAL SONS OF GOD (and DAUGHTERS—II Cor. 6:18)! No longer flesh and blood. No longer subject to the pulls of a carnal mind, but True Sons in the very IMAGE OF GOD and His Son, Jesus Christ.
But what happens next? What happens to all the rest of humanity who are not sons and daughters and are not saved? What will happen to them? Just why, pray tell, are they eagerly awaiting the manifestation of these Sons and Daughters? Of what value is the salvation and manifestation of the few chosen saints to those left behind who are not saved?
The Church teaches the world that the rest of humanity will be tortured for all eternity in the lake of fire. Is that true? Is that the purpose of the lake of fire is?
Next we read what the condition of the rest of humanity is, how they got that way, and what is the solution to the problem.
"For the creature [creation] was made subject to VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope" (Rom. 8:20).
God MADE man subject to vanity. God did not ask man’s permission to do this. God did it for His own wise purpose. But God is not a fiend that takes pleasure in the failures of weak humanity. God did not make man in a condition of vanity so that most of humanity would fail of the ideal, and God would then torture most of his creation eternally, when it was He Who created them weak and subjected them to every form of vanity in the first place. God created the whole creation subject to vanity. It is, therefore, God’s responsibility to get man out of this mess.
God supernaturally made a way for the "manifested Sons of God" to conquer the flesh and the carnal mind and be formed into the very image of God with the very mind of Christ! They will be no longer subject to vanity when they are manifested. They will be no longer subject to "the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION." They will be FREE!
And it is they who will then FREE the rest of humanity from their bondage! What was the purpose for this subjection to vanity? So that they will eternally fail and God would eternally torture them for their failure? No! Let’s read it:
God has, "subjected the same IN HOPE" (Verse 20). Wait a minute, am I saying that all of humanity, who fail to be in the first resurrection and become the manifest Sons and Daughters of God, will nonetheless still have "hope?" Is there really hope for all the lost and unsaved? How can this be? Aren’t they going to be subjected to the "lake of fire?" Yes, but there is "hope" in the lake of fire. In fact, the lake of fire is their ONLY HOPE! They will not be eternally tortured just because they did not attain to the first resurrection, but will rather be "DELIVERED!" Let’s read it........................................
This article also addresses these issues;
http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Excellent Joe, Thanks for the links!!
gena
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Eiriik
I think you have some very precious insights there. :) Especially where you expound the Scripture regarding timing!
:)