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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Deborah-Leigh on January 10, 2007, 04:37:41 PM
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Hello Forum
Jesus said in Matt 5 :13 You are the salt of the earth but…BUT…if the salt looses its saltiness……
What is the second witness to the above scripture?
What do you think would make salt loose its saltiness?
What are the qualities of salt that this scriputure could be pointing out that we should cultivate and value.?
I have been reflecting on what SALT means and would appreciate your insights, reflections or testimonies regarding the meaning and relevance of SALT. :D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi Arcturus,
Mark 9:50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost
his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves,
and have peace one with another.
Col. 4:6 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt,
that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.
Rom. 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make
for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Iris
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I kinda look at it this way. I know salt makes things taste better. I do not know anyone who does not like salt.Now really think about that.
bobby
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Hello Iris and Bobby
Thank you for your valueable input.
.... salt is good in SMALL doses IF only it has not lost its saltiness. Of course grace and peace and preserving the bond of peace among the brethren is scriptural and common sense. In support of your insights we are cautioned that there are six things that the Lord HATES and indeed seven are an ABOMINATION to Him the seventh thing being one who sows discord among his brethren. Proverbs 6 : 19
So WHAT is the test of saltiness? Is the preservation of peace and the presence of grace = saltiness? What is this then......
...."Woe to you"....and..."You poor and silly and thoughtless and unreflecting and senseless...".......
What is that? Where is the grace in that? Where is the peace in those words?.....Do these words show grace or peace?
Certainly the persons to whom this was addressed by Jesus first and secondly Paul to the Galatians Chapter 3 might show something deeper about salt and its applications.
i can see that edification might have been the result of such a responce.....is there a key to understanding this SALT in edification?
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Ray's paper on winning souls for Jesus explains this some. I think severe persecution can make one loose their saltiness, along with fear - which is one of the enemies greatest weapons.
Lisa
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Hi Arcturus,
The way I am looking at this, is most foods are dull of themself,
but when you add salt, this makes food come to life.
Same for the elect, when they have Christ in them,
they bring life to the world.
John 6:33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
John 8:12 Then Jesus spoke again to them, saying, I am the Light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the life of life.
Mat 5:13 You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt loses its savor, with what shall it be salted? It is no longer good for anything, but to be thrown out and to be trodden underfoot by men.
As for Matt 5:13, it seems to be referring to someone who has Christ in them, but goes back into the world and falls away.
I believe it is saying they can not be restored in this life, but must go to the White Throne Judgment.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi Arcturus,
Interesting subject, I am going to look into this more. What struck me first off is how salt is used, a little bit is sprinkled or distributed over the entire area to be consumed. You don't put the whole amount on one small bit of your meal.
Kind of like the elect, spread or placed apart all over the world.
Thank you for starting this thought provoking post.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Kat,
Heb. 6:6 has always bothered me because I have fallen away a few times myself, yet here I am. Why do you think it says that it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance? Is this a bad translation? I mean loosing its saltiness and impossible to renew them seems to match, doesn't it? Nothing is impossible with God. Its like the unforgivable sin. Anyway, I could sure use some clarification on this.
In His love,
Dwight
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As I was contemplating this through the scriptural references to salt I remembered that salt is a unique compound, it is comprised of sodium (a metal so dangerously unstable that it can burst into flame when exposed to water). The other element is chlorine (a lethal gas).
Put them together and you have salt, very low toxicity and non flamable.
I think there could be some significance here...............
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Kat,
Heb. 6:6 has always bothered me because I have fallen away a few times myself, yet here I am. Why do you think it says that it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance? Is this a bad translation? I mean loosing its saltiness and impossible to renew them seems to match, doesn't it? Nothing is impossible with God. Its like the unforgivable sin. Anyway, I could sure use some clarification on this.
In His love,
Dwight6
Hello Dwight,
Falling away is expected, it is part of our growth and spiritual development as we realize we are nothing and He is everything. If we are not humble enough to forgive we will not be forgiven and are not one of His chosen. Recognizing how weak our flesh is and beginning to despise the worldly things we once loved should tell us that He is working us unto perfection, we are not nor will we be perfect in this flesh but we have the covering of Christ's blood.
We fall, He lifts us up, if we are truly chosen He will keep us and cover us.
Prov 24:1 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
Matt 18:21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Matt 18:22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Matt 18:23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Matt 18:24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Matt 18:25But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Matt 18:26The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Matt 18:27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Matt 18:28But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Matt 18:29And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Matt 18:30And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Matt 18:31So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Matt 18:32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Matt 18:33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Matt 18:34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Matt 18:35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
The chapter of Hebrews 6 is speaking of the called who were not of the elect, not of the elect who may stumble along their walk with Him because He will lift His own again and again. Remember He will not lose any of those whom the Father has given Him.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Interesting!! I like a little salt-dispersed-but if the top comes off the food becomes inedible. Too much of a good thing??
Dang, I want some chips now!
love,
gena
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Joe and Arcturus,
Thanks Joe for your post it really helped me. You know, right after I posted that, I listened to the last message Ray gave at the Sept. conference in Mobile. Ray goes into great detail of how none of the elect can be lost. This has really cleared up alot of things for me. Arcturus, I think the elect won't lose their saltiness because God won't let them. They are the salt of the earth and if the earth loses the salt.....you get what I mean.
God bless,
Dwight
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This is great everyone! Already a revelation and homework !
Dwight I will need to rep-visit the Mobile Conference.
Joe in ref to what you wrote : salt is a unique compound, it is comprised of sodium (a metal so dangerously unstable that it can burst into flame when exposed to water). The other element is chlorine (a lethal gas).
Put them together and you have salt, very low toxicity and non flamable.
Do you think that 2 Cor 2 : 16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death, and to the other the savour of life unto life.
Jesus was flammable and most likely seen by the Pharisees as dangerously unstable, bursting into flame and a lethal gas but to us He is a sweet fragrance ref “ Cor 2 : 15. What do you think? Could this be the tie to "Woe" as was percieved by the rebellious?
This thread so far is extinguishing fear and that is very sweet!
Peace to you
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Hello everyone,
This thought came to me a few months ago. If we are salted by His grace, then we will thirst for His righteousness.
God bless,
Harry
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Harry,
Very good thought. Thanks for sharing. That to me brought up memories of the best steak we have ever had. Just by the act of salting it, it does make one hunger more. I know was hungriere when I could smell the salt on my steak. So yeah I can see how it would work spiritually.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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"Salt was once considered a very precious commodity; as important as money has grown to be. Because it was so valued within ancient societies and was very expensive to buy and also very difficult to extract, it has had quite a lot of symbolism and superstition attached to it over the course of human history. Salt was used as a preservative and, in this sense, began to symbolize life and the avoidance of decay. It became a sign of hospitality, trust and friendship because of its high price. Soldiers in Rome were often paid in salt and, in this way, it was also a form of currency. This latter use of salt is the source of the expression that a person was "not worth his salt."
idioms:
salt of the earth
A person or group considered as the best or noblest part of society.
worth (one's) salt
Efficient and capable.
Salt was very valuable during the time when Jesus was on earth. If the salt lost it's saltiness it lost it's value.
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Thank you for sharing your thoughts so far everyone.
Here is what I am thinking.
Mark 9 : 49 Everyone EVERYONE will be salted with fire.
I agree that the salt is used spiritually as it is also applied physically to food to enhance taste. That means it is used sparingly not overwhelmingly. :D
Now observing what Jesus says in Mark 9….that we will be salted with fire…
1 Cor 3 : 13 The work of each one will be come plainly, openly known, shown for what it is; for the day of Christ will disclose and declare it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test and critically appraise the character and worth of the work each person has done.
1 Peter 1 : 7 So the genuineness of your faith may be tested, your faith which is infinitely more precious than the perishable gold which is tested and purified with fire.
If this is to be done as in being SALTED with fire….then the salt will get in to places that are hidden and unexposed. Their little granules will penetrate every area and this will be a fire test for those who’s works are wicked and it will be an enhancement for those who are faithful. Salt can burn in the open wounds of deep secret wickedness.
Both the fool and the faithful will be salted…..with fire. EVERY ONE will be SALTED with fire. ie as in salting food....sprinkled with salt not overwhelmed in salt. But to the wicked, this sprinkling with fire as in sprinkling with salt will be painful and undesirable.
If we compare the consequences, then the fool will gnash teeth and the wise will be grateful. Or, the Son will not resent the chastisement but the ******* child will gnash teeth when the salting with fire commences.
Is this not how we are to keep our peace by being the salt in every situation? Aren’t our words and thoughts and deeds our works? If we expose a fool with a salty response will that fool not be exposed. If we expose a wise person with a salty response will not that wise person be grateful.
Should we withhold salt in order to sound sweet all the time? Ray doesn’t. Jesus didn’t……neither did Paul. I believe that the answers we see Ray giving to his detractors and to those who hate the word of God, is as salt in the context of the life of the person. Hey….just one e-mail with salt from Ray may be all they ever get in this life time!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Some people shouldn't eat salt at all, like those who have high blood pressure.
Q: What's the significance of that?
A: Maybe some people should stay away from us! LOL :D (Sorry, I couldn't resist!) :)
Sandy
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Sandy,
I had thoughts about that, but I am glad you had the guts to post that. Here's to two people thinking alike. I drink to that [NOTE: sprite that is. Alchohol is way to early in the morning for that.]
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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Hello Sandy and Anne
Some people shouldn't eat salt at all, like those who have high blood pressure.
;D ;D
Good one Sandy!....still....what about salt? If some one has high blood pressure should we be guilt tripping if we are salty?
Like if we are the light and some one needs dark glasses to stay comfortable, should we carry the dark glasses just in case we meet some one with light sensitive eyes or who enjoys darkness instead of light?
I am sure that many of the e-mails that are sent to Ray are from weak eyed high pressured holier than thou persons who prefer darkness instead of light and who have high blood pressure when it comes to demonstrating their approval of Hell and that we who do not follow them are ear marked for eternal damnation.
Will Christ find much faith when He returns? NO.
How do we apply our salt? Have you ever thought about whether or not you might be salty to someone?
Some one just phoned me now to tell me that they have been listening to a person who claims to have experienced Hell and Heaven. You know the type…they saw Jesus and Jesus told them and showed them etc and then low and behold a book is published! I replied that if some one takes LSD has a trip and comes back to publish a book on what they saw, that I would not be one to believe or agree or endorse such idiocy. I would not buy the book either! I asked for scriptures on what this person was teaching and of course there were non because their teaching is out of their imagination that raises itself up against the true knowledge of God.
I think that my response was the salty answer....We agreed to disagree without hostility, grievance or umbrage but with acceptance that we do not stand in the same insights and that THAT can only be changed if and when God decides.
Not everyone however is so easy to accept diversity and differences. Many will throw away good will because of disagreement leaving in a huff of high blood pressure! Should we be tolerant of evil or wickedness or blindness? I say no. We should be able to say what we think despite the high blood pressure or weak eyes of the party that would have us go into agreement with them at all costs and threaten to leave us if we do not agree with their errors.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Arcturus,
This was a creative post. Jesus never seemed to mind that the hypocrites had high blood pressure. In fact things turned out really good no matter what they did. Object lesson for us?? I agree with you in us being to stand up for beliefs no matter what. Thanks for you post. This has been a blessing.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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You are part of the blessing too Anne :)....and our Blessing is of Chirst who reveals His ways and truths. Without responce, I too would not have the joy of revelations I recieve in abundance!.....
Peace and joy to you
Arcturus :)
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Some people shouldn't eat salt at all, like those who have high blood pressure.
Q: What's the significance of that?
A: Maybe some people should stay away from us! LOL :D (Sorry, I couldn't resist!) :)
Sandy
That makes since but then there are those with high blood pressure (like me) who eat things they probably shouldn't, but those things taste soo good (hanging round here) its hard to resist! ;)
Peace,
John
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John,
I too can relate. hee hee hee. There's so much to get done and is it getting done? Nope becuase everyone is posting onine and getting things done. I love this.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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Not everyone however is so easy to accept diversity and differences. Many will throw away good will because of disagreement leaving in a huff of high blood pressure! Should we be tolerant of evil or wickedness or blindness? I say no. We should be able to say what we think despite the high blood pressure or weak eyes of the party that would have us go into agreement with them at all costs and threaten to leave us if we do not agree with their errors.
A very astute observation Arcturus. I believe that we are being salted with His Fire at times right here in the Forum. It is a given that we are not all going to have 100% agreement in all things at all times, so what do we do? How do we handle this?
Our response to things we don't see or agree with is a direct gage of spiritual maturity, when someone has a legitimate question or does not comprehend something most of us understand to be true requires a different tone and approach than someone who comes in teaching or making bold proclaimations, both of these scenarios can prove to be frustrating but the test is how we ourselves respond, in the spirit of charity and brotherly love, or in a prideful self righteous spirit?
This has been a very interesting informative thread!
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Thank you Joe
You wrote : but the test is how we ourselves respond, in the spirit of charity and brotherly love, or in a prideful self righteous spirit?
Do you not think that some of the responses that Ray presents results in his detractors belief that he is being prideful and self righteous? If you put the shoe on the other foot, and imagine getting an answer to you personally, like the ones Ray gives to some of his detractors.....without spiritual maturity.....is it not easy to become hostile and offended by his answers? Even the Disciples of Christ were worried enough to advise Jesus that He had offended the Pharisees. Personally I would be most upset if Ray sent me a scathing sarcastic responce! I would not enjoy it no matter how spiritually mature I think I am :o..or am not ;D
So the observation here is this. What is my MOTIVE? Do I seek agreement or a following or am I able to at any time...any time...face rejection? Can I follow Christ alone? Am I sure of myr facts enough to keep going alone if necessary? Or is the test....have I got a following or have I lost the crowd the guage I use to see if I am in rightstanding with God?
If I am inspired of God to speak the truth it should be with edification, exhortation and comfort and not only comfort. How can anyone speak with comfort to a Pharisee! Jesus spoke with edification and sarcasm to Nicodemas who came to Him under the shadow of darkness and even then Jesus used ridicule to irk Nicodemus to think! What might have sounded offensive actually became conducive to change in Nicodemus. Was it not Nicodemus who was the among the first Jews to convert to Christ and was he not the one who arranged to bring the mixture of myrrh and aloes, weighing about a hundred pounds to the preparation for the burial of Jesus? Can this not happen to us too in this sense that we say something that may sound offensive to a person who then disappears from our radar screen and is changed without us knowing it! Jesus had already died and Nicodemas then appeared in the scriptures with the Disciple Joseph of Arimathea. John 19 : 38
This is my point Joe. Sometimes the soft answer that turns away wrath also will turn away our reward if we want to have friendship with man at the cost of loosing fellowship with Christ.
I just see so much luke warmness and resistance to being fearless because like mindedness with our brethren is so precious we do not want to loose it. I do not think I will loose your friendship Joe and I value being able to be candid without risk but what about others. Do I or should I temper my responces to accomodate or am I able and comfortable to receive alternative, challenging and what could to the untrained spirit seem darn right provocative, self righteous sounding views. I have to admit...not always. Jesus as our role model and Ray in this generation certainly is ready willing and able to answer back with forthright edification and exhortation to those who seek comfortable agreement who turn away perhaps to change later outside the radar screen of Ray. Like Nicodemas, how many go away from being offended to later perhaps change because of the stinging sarcasm that unveils the truth and shows them up as followers of the lie?
John 6 : 60 When His disciples heard this, many of them said, This is a hard and difficult and strange saying, an offensive and unbearable message. (I can just imagine that some of Ray’s detractors think like this towards what Ray writes in response to them!) ….61…But Jesus said to them, Is this a stumbling block and an offence to you? Does this UPSET and DISPLEASE and SHOCK and SCANDALIZE you?….64 But still some of you fail to believe and trust and have faith. …65…This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him, unless he is enabled to do so by the Father. 66 (]Here is the clincher…)After this, many of His disciples drew back and returned to their old associations and no longer accompanied Him. (Jesus did not care for agreement or a following. He was quite willing to go it alone to the cross with or without human accompaniments.) 67. Jesus said to the Twelve, Will you also go away?
This is what I am reflecting on Joe…..MOTIVES of the heart and attachments of the flesh. My questions to myself….am I willing to follow Christ alone? It certainly is much easier with fellowship and family and companionship and agreement of the brethren but surely not at the expense of the spirit of truth. :o
This is what I am reflecting on and Ray’s responses to his detractors is a catalyst to my present pondering searching desire to understand Jesus and to follow more in His ways.
How do you see this?
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Thank you Joe
You wrote : but the test is how we ourselves respond, in the spirit of charity and brotherly love, or in a prideful self righteous spirit?
(All of my responses are in purple)
Hi Arcturus, This is where discernment comes in, I think you will see in Ray's responses a different tone when a babe asks a question that underlines their (as yet) spiritual immaturity verses the "know it alls" who refuse to consider or be receptive to new light and instead seek to teach or make definitive proclaimations of things they know little to nothing about.
Do you not think that some of the responses that Ray presents results in his detractors belief that he is being prideful and self righteous?
Absolutely! This next comparison is an example that some detractors will run with, how about Moses and Pharoah, what was Pharoah's reaction to the words Moses spoke to him on behalf of the Lord? I can just hear some folks now; "How can you comapare Moses & Ray??!!? Easy, they are both men, men who are sharing and teaching things that are led by His Spirit.
If you put the shoe on the other foot, and imagine getting an answer to you personally, like the ones Ray gives to some of his detractors.....without spiritual maturity.....is it not easy to become hostile and offended by his answers? Even the Disciples of Christ were worried enough to advise Jesus that He had offended the Pharisees. Personally I would be most upset if Ray sent me a scathing sarcastic responce! I would not enjoy it no matter how spiritually mature I think I am :o..or am not ;D
Actually, I have been on the receiving end of a couple of Ray's "no holds barred" answers, ;) we have exchanged many private e-mails where I ask him questions, in retrospect some pretty stupid assumptions were included in my question(s) and Ray (as he does) got straight to the point. One advantage I may have is that I have attended a couple Conferences and he speaks much the same as he writes but I have never seen him respond with anger, when you see the body language, see the smile, hear the voice intonations you tend to get a fuller picture than what appears in the written word.
Ray's sarcasm is is something that does not offend me personally, this is the way my family (even Aunts, Uncles, Cousins) communicated with each other my entire life, it is also the way I communicate with friends and coworkers, if you only read a transcript of some of the things we have said to each other it could seem rather rude and callous, but if you saw and heard the exchanges your perception would be totally different.
So the observation here is this. What is my MOTIVE? Do I seek agreement or a following or am I able to at any time...any time...face rejection? Can I follow Christ alone? Am I sure of myr facts enough to keep going alone if necessary? Or is the test....have I got a following or have I lost the crowd the guage I use to see if I am in rightstanding with God?
That is a great question, if we continually ask that when we are responding to others we disagree with it will keep us humble enough to seek His will, patience, easier said than done.
If I am inspired of God to speak the truth it should be with edification, exhortation and comfort and not only comfort. How can anyone speak with comfort to a Pharisee! Jesus spoke with edification and sarcasm to Nicodemas who came to Him under the shadow of darkness and even then Jesus used ridicule to irk Nicodemus to think! What might have sounded offensive actually became conducive to change in Nicodemus. Was it not Nicodemus who was the among the first Jews to convert to Christ and was he not the one who arranged to bring the mixture of myrrh and aloes, weighing about a hundred pounds to the preparation for the burial of Jesus? Can this not happen to us too in this sense that we say something that may sound offensive to a person who then disappears from our radar screen and is changed without us knowing it! Jesus had already died and Nicodemas then appeared in the scriptures with the Disciple Joseph of Arimathea. John 19 : 38
Good example, often we are like teenagers who think they know more than they do, sometimes they must be grabbed by the shoulders and shaken to get a point across to them, sometimes it will sink in and other times it will give them inspiration to rebel even more.
This is my point Joe. Sometimes the soft answer that turns away wrath also will turn away our reward if we want to have friendship with man at the cost of loosing fellowship with Christ.
The Word itself is a two edged sword, very sharp and it cuts both ways (foreswing and backswing) using it as the primary tool of admonishment should get the attention of anyone truly seeking understanding. Using our own words, thoughts and reasoning may only fuel the fire of strife and division.
I just see so much luke warmness and resistance to being fearless because like mindedness with our brethren is so precious we do not want to loose it. I do not think I will loose your friendship Joe and I value being able to be candid without risk but what about others. Do I or should I temper my responces to accomodate or am I able and comfortable to receive alternative, challenging and what could to the untrained spirit seem darn right provocative, self righteous sounding views. I have to admit...not always. Jesus as our role model and Ray in this generation certainly is ready willing and able to answer back with forthright edification and exhortation to those who seek comfortable agreement who turn away perhaps to change later outside the radar screen of Ray. Like Nicodemas, how many go away from being offended to later perhaps change because of the stinging sarcasm that unveils the truth and shows them up as followers of the lie?
We are admonished to privately council a Brother or Sister first, then take a second or third of the Brethren to voice any concern, this should be done as often as possible rather than a public admonition before the other avenues have been explored. I do not think there is a one size fits all answer, each scenario requires its own prayerful meditation best done seeking the council of the Head and body of Christ.
John 6 : 60 When His disciples heard this, many of them said, This is a hard and difficult and strange saying, an offensive and unbearable message. (I can just imagine that some of Ray’s detractors think like this towards what Ray writes in response to them!) ….61…But Jesus said to them, Is this a stumbling block and an offence to you? Does this UPSET and DISPLEASE and SHOCK and SCANDALIZE you?….64 But still some of you fail to believe and trust and have faith. …65…This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him, unless he is enabled to do so by the Father. 66 (]Here is the clincher…)After this, many of His disciples drew back and returned to their old associations and no longer accompanied Him. (Jesus did not care for agreement or a following. He was quite willing to go it alone to the cross with or without human accompaniments.) 67. Jesus said to the Twelve, Will you also go away?
This is what I am reflecting on Joe…..MOTIVES of the heart and attachments of the flesh. My questions to myself….am I willing to follow Christ alone? It certainly is much easier with fellowship and family and companionship and agreement of the brethren but surely not at the expense of the spirit of truth. :o
It is all about the heart, the motives that inspire us to action. I agree we should not trade or compromise Truth for fellowship or popularity but we pray for understanding in any trial or lesson He places before us. I really try to keep kneejerk reactions (not always successful) out of my posts I would rather be silent for a while than to be a blowhard hothead who also happens to be wrong. :D
This is what I am reflecting on and Ray’s responses to his detractors is a catalyst to my present pondering searching desire to understand Jesus and to follow more in His ways.
This is our present journey my dear Sister.
How do you see this?
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Hello Joe
Of VITAL SIGNIFICANCE in your response is this : I have never seen him respond with anger, when you see the body language, see the smile, hear the voice intonations you tend to get a fuller picture than what appears in the written word.
THAT is what I was looking for! Never….no ….NEVER respond with anger! Got it! This is an insight that is sorely missing in the e-mail responses that do not reveal the smile, intonation and language of the heart that is peace, patience, wisdom, long suffering and self control! It is one thing to be righteously angry as when Jesus took a whip and over turned tables in Gods House of Prayer and quite another thing to loose control become impatient unwise, given to loosing control and being hostile. That is not the way or the truth or the life and now I can imagine how Jesus talked to Nicodemus, with kindness and intonations that Ray exhibits as you have pointed out. It is like punnishing a child with anger which is a NO NO or with wisdom with the view to correction not anihalation!
You say : Using our own words, thoughts and reasoning may only fuel the fire of strife and division.
That is a very good pointer.2 Tim 3 : 16 Every Scripture is God-breathed, given by His inspiration and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience and for training in righteousness in holy living in conformity to God’s will in thought ,purpose, and action.
Now that requires practise,practise practise! ;D :D
I appreciate the thoughtfulness and sobriety of your responces Joe.
Your Sister
Arcturus :)
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Hello Joe
Of VITAL SIGNIFICANCE in your response is this : I have never seen him respond with anger, when you see the body language, see the smile, hear the voice intonations you tend to get a fuller picture than what appears in the written word.
THAT is what I was looking for! Never….no ….NEVER respond with anger! Got it! This is an insight that is sorely missing in the e-mail responses that do not reveal the smile, intonation and language of the heart that is peace, patience, wisdom, long suffering and self control! It is one thing to be righteously angry as when Jesus took a whip and over turned tables in Gods House of Prayer and quite another thing to loose control become impatient unwise, given to loosing control and being hostile. That is not the way or the truth or the life and now I can imagine how Jesus talked to Nicodemus, with kindness and intonations that Ray exhibits as you have pointed out. It is like punnishing a child with anger which is a NO NO or with wisdom with the view to correction not anihalation!
You say : Using our own words, thoughts and reasoning may only fuel the fire of strife and division.
That is a very good pointer.2 Tim 3 : 16 Every Scripture is God-breathed, given by His inspiration and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience and for training in righteousness in holy living in conformity to God’s will in thought ,purpose, and action.
Now that requires practise,practise practise! ;D :D
I appreciate the thoughtfulness and sobriety of your responces Joe.
Your Sister
Arcturus :)
Thank you for the very kind words Arcturus,
There are times I am sure that everyone goes through, periods where they (we) do not especially like being told their beliefs are wrong or that they yet have eyes to see in certain areas. Although we should address fallacy we should err on the side of charity unless we can be sure our discernment is from Him rather than ourselves. A babe should be handled with the utmost care while the "teacher" of errors should be confronted with scripture, a two edged sword. All of this should be motivated by love though, as we are admonished to even love our enemies not just those we find ourselves in agreement with.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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excellent, thank you all for your wisdom :D
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This has been an interesting thread.
It has helped me to see things clearer.
Thank you very much!
:) :)
Iris
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Acknowledged with thanks Joe!
Peace and the continued council and love of His Spirit be with you
Arcturus
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Hello everyone who helped pass the salt! A big thank you to all!
The subject of salt and its applications was very much on my mind prior to posting the thread. I am grateful for your insights and participation that were a catalyst to me receiving deeper insights and revelation into the mysteries of Gods word.
I have re-read the thread again and this is what has come up for me in conclusion.
God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. We are being made into His image and likeness. Therefore as He makes us become stable, unchanging, steady in the fruit of His Spirit of Love, Joy, Peace, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-control, so too will we be able to remain steady in the face of the raging storms of emotions that can be unleashed against us even if we are in a little boat crossing over to get somewhere else and minding our own business when a storm hits.
What comes up is the lesson to not become too easily integrated with the storm or give access to emotions of anxiety that come from external circumstances whose aim is to drive in fear, pain or confusion. Being anxious for nothing is the result of being more in the image of Christ and less in the image of volatile fickle man.
In Africa we have a unique creature called the chameleon. Apart from its ability to swivel its eyes and look backwards and forwards at the same time, this little creature can change the colour of its skin. :o I have learnt from this thread that Jesus was not a chameleon. Can you believe some of the things God is teaching me…Dahhh! ;D Any one of you bright sparks in the USA and Europe, Asia or Australia could have told me that hey? ::) Well Okay but for those who do not know what a chameleon is, this small creature is able to change the color of its skin to suit its environment so as to be camouflaged and blend in to protect it from being eaten by predators.
Yet we read in the scripture
John 8 : 59 So they took up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus, by mixing with the crowd, concealed Himself and went out of the temple.
Did Jesus camouflage Himself or vanish? No! He mixed with the crowd, blended in and made His Exit. 8) He was able to camouflage Himself in order to leave the scene. Jesus was also able to appear and disappear very effectively. This scripture really invites deeper reflection
Luke 24 : 31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
They lost sight of him literally when their wyes were open spiritually. Is that the same for us here in the Forum as we discern each other from the abundance of our mouths showing what is in our hearts? I think yes. It matters little to me what our literal physical parameters are. It matters much more to me what our hearts speak. This in turn does reveal the spiritual condition as being in close conformity with the image of Christ or in distant conformity to His likeness.
The chameleon can not disappear! Swivel eyes…Yes…change colour to conceal itself…Yes but vanish from sight….NO!…only Jesus could do that and in His image and likeness we should know when to vanish from sight! Like when to keep quiet! ….when anger, violence and intent to do harm raises itself up against us as stones ready to be thrown at us, we should leave and not fight, or you can see a stoning coming, then turn and leave the area. Disengage and remove oneself, make an exit and do not stay in the area. Common sense hey? Dust off your shoes and leave, duck!….vanish, split or remove yourself from the communication. Have no part with commotion, debates, fighting or siding for or against a brother or sister. Doing so might not puff up one but it could deflate and dis-encourage an other. This may sound like chameleon talk looking backwards and forwards at the same time but seriously; here is what I have found out. We are going to become made more into the image of Christ and as a result of this we will become more constant as God is constant. We will learn how to appear and disappear....to be invisible. The Spirit is invisible, its presence felt and seen. This is decidedly not the same as going with the flow or joining the crowd. It is the contrary! I believe our training ground is in our conversations because our words will either justify or condemn us.
I have seen that Jesus was a master of camouflage and appearing and disappearing. When he was expected he didn’t show up ref the death of Lazarus, when he was not expected He did show up walking on the water! We can do the same in this sea of words between one other as we practise in the spiritual mastery of Christ and as we grow into the conformity of His image and learn to love one another as the consequence of His work in each one of us here.
Peace to all
Arcturus :)