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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Dean Peterman on June 30, 2007, 05:32:48 PM
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Dear Friends,
Joe, provided some excellent information in his reply to my question on the immortal soul. He makes an excellent point that the Bible does not specifically say anyone is going to be with God immediately after they die. At least that is what I think Joe is saying. However, I want to streamline this question a little more so we can focus more narrowly on where my confusion lies. The Bible seems to indicate in some verses that when people physically die they immediately go to be with God or go to paradise or go to be with Jesus. To me this seems to contradict everything else in the Bible that teaches we do not have an immortal soul. But I know the Bible does not have any contradictions. So, I am trying to understand what these verses mean if they are not telling us that people are going to be with God when they die. This is the last piece of the puzzle for me. If someone can explain this to me I would be very grateful.
Luke 23:43 Today you will be with me in paradise. (But they were going to be dead within an hour so how could they be in a place called paradise that very day)
Luke 23:46 Father into your hands I commit my spirit. (What does this mean? Is his spirit going to God)
Acts 7:59 And as they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. (Again, it sounds like Stephens spirit is going to be with Jesus)
There are other verses such as Paul saying he would rather die and go to be with Jesus but it is better if he stays. But these verses all convey the issue I am trying to understand.
I would appreciate any insights someone may have.
Sincerely,
Dean
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Hello again Dean,
Ray writes on this topic extensively throughout his papers, here is an article that specifically addresses your questions;
AN ENCOURAGING THOUGHT ABOUT DEATH
Death has two different meanings that are essential for us to differentiate:
The ACT OF DYING or termination of life.
The STATE OF BEING DEAD.
All humanity will experience "the act of dying," but absolutely no one will ever experience the "state of being dead." And this is because:
"For the living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything…" (Ecclesiastes 9:5).
This may be comforting to some, but scary to others. It all depends on your point of view; your perspective; your emotional stability; your up-bringing; your understanding. What I want to do in this little article is give you an encouraging perspective of death. "How can anything be encouraging when it comes to death?" you are probably asking. Well, let me try and answer that for you.
Virtually every time that I have read that verse (dozens of times), it was to prove to someone that we do not have an immortal soul that lives on after death of the body, nor do we have consciousness as is taught in Christendom. But this past year I took another look at this verse and saw something else that I had never contemplated before.
Not only is there no consciousness in death, but there is no consciousness OF death either. This is the encouraging part.
"The living KNOW that they shall die, but the dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING."
Let’s think about that for a few moments and see if this is not quite encouraging.
"The living KNOW… the dead know NOTHING." The dead don’t know that they are dead. When you die, you will NOT KNOW THAT YOU ARE DEAD! But it gets better. Not only will you never know that you are dead at some point in the future, but from your perspective YOU NEVER EVEN LOST CONSCIOUSNESS. This to me was a marvelous revelation.
Once God creates consciousness in a human they will NEVER EVER know anything BUT CONSCIOUSNESS. From my perspective and from your perspective we will never "know" ANYTHING but life and feelings and emotions and consciousness. From our perspective we will never "know" what it is like to be dead. Oh we will probably die some day (assuming that the Lord doesn’t come first), but we will never know that we were dead; we will never know what it is to BE dead, or to BE unconscious. Others will know and sorrow (maybe?) that we are dead and gone, but from OUR perspective we will never lose conscious reality, and we will never "experience" being dead.
Now I didn’t say we would not experience "dying." Most (albeit not all) people who die, experience dying, but they do NOT experience death itself, nor will they ever. It is impossible for someone to experience the death state, seeing that where there is no consciousness, there is no experience, and therefore there is no memory of it. I will carry this one step further. Even if there was no such thing as a resurrection from the dead, the dead would never know that they died and would never know that they are dead.
This to me is an amazing thing. Once God created consciousness, cognizance, awareness, perception, sensation, emotions, and the like; we never ever loose it from OUR PERSPECTIVE, and after all, whose perspective counts the most when it comes to death—ours or someone else’s?
We may all go through the fear of dying or even the pain of dying, but there is no pain and no fear IN DEATH ITSELF. No one who is presently dead is aware of it, or experiencing it, or being frightened by it, or anything else.
DEATH IS SLEEP
I was tempted to make that caption: DEATH IS LIKE SLEEP, but that would be Scripturally inaccurate, as nowhere do the Scriptures state that death is "like" sleep, but rather that death IS SLEEP. God prepared Moses for death with the following:
"And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, you shall sleep [Heb: shakab—to lie down, to rest, to sleep, to decease] with your fathers…" (Deut. 31:16).
David said:
"Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death" (Psalm 13:3).
When Lazarus was dead (John 11:14), Jesus said:
"Our friend Lazarus sleeps: but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep" (John 11:11).
Do you fear when your children "sleep" at night? You know that they are safe in sleep. Even in sleep we have a slight awareness of life, especially when we are dreaming or falling in and out of sleep, but in death there is no consciousness nor sub-consciousness, and so you will never know that you are sleeping. You know that your children will awake in the morning. We all who died IN CHRIST, shall awake in the morning of resurrection. And when we do, we might remember dying, but we will not remember ever being dead.
On five different occasions I came very near to death. Three of the five times I was unconscious. For all practicality, I was dead. I remember what happened before and after being unconscious, but I remember nothing of BEING unconscious. Yet I knew that I was, but only after the fact by the evidence, not from my actual experience of having been under. The actual fact of death is no different from what I already experienced several times. And you have all experienced it already as well. We all sleep, and unless we have bad dreams, the experience of sleep itself is nothing fearful or painful.
Sleep is a way that God can set people aside for a little while as He works with our children and our children’s children. Centuries and millennia will pass for some, yet they will know no death, only consciousness. From our perspective we will never know anything but life and consciousness. Death won’t even be an illusion: it won’t be AT ALL. And that is because "The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything."
The Apostle Paul was familiar with this verse, seeing that he earnestly studied the Hebrew Scriptures. With relation to this concept that "…the dead know not anything," Paul made the following statements:
"For we know, That if the tent of our earthy dwelling be taken down, we have a building from God, a house not made by hands, aionian, in the heavens. For indeed to this we are groaning, earnestly desiring to be invested with that habitation of our which is from [not ‘in’] heaven: surely, having been invested, we shall not be found destitute.
For, indeed, those being in the tent are groaning, being oppressed; in which we desire not to be divested [naked], but invested [clothed], that the mortal may be absorbed by LIFE. Now He Who has produced this for this same thing is that God Who has given to us the pledge of the Spirit.
Therefore, being always confident, and knowing that being at home in the body [our body, in the flesh] we are from home [our real home, our immortal home], away from the Lord; for we are walking by Faith, not by sight [‘Blessed are they that have NOT seen, and yet have believed’ John 20:29] But we are confident, and well-pleased rather to be separated from the body, and TO BE [not instantly, but at a future time] at home [with our new spiritual bodies like Christ’s] with the Lord" (II Cor. 5:1-8, Emphatic Diaglott).
Yes, Paul knew that once he died the next waking moment would be in resurrection with a new body (I Cor. 15:49), and although it would happen in an instant (from this life to the next life without missing a heart beat), in the twinkling of an eye (less than a second), nonetheless, it would have to wait until "the LAST TRUMP’ (I Cor. 15:51). But to Paul from his perspective, it would only be but a moment in time, seeing that, "the living KNOW that they shall die, but the dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING."
"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that SLEPT" (I Cor. 15:20).
Soon we too shall be like Him and see our Creator as He is:
"Beloved now are we the sons of God, but it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that when He shall appear, we shall BE LIKE HIM; for we shall see Him as He is. And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as HE is pure" (I John 3:2-3)
Make no mistake: death is an enemy, but it is "being ABOLISHED" (I Cor. 15:26) by the One who has already had victory over it. And although we will never experience being dead, we certainly experience the loss of our loved ones who have died, and they will experience loss when we die.
So take courage: If you are reading this little article then you are alive, and that is all you will EVER KNOW… LIFE!
http://bible-truths.com/death.htm
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Here is an email from Ray addressing the spirit returning to God at death.
Every person (and animal) has a "spirit." There is no life without spirit. At death OUR spirit return to our God Who gave it to us. Spirit does not die. But, spirit has no consciencousness of its own. It must be united with a body. That is why there is coming a Resurrection of the DEAD. Adam's body had the spirit of God breathed into it and then Adam became a LIVING SOUL. God's Holy Spirit is His Spirit of Holiness which imparts spiritual knowledge and spiritual character to those who possess it. The wicked and unbelievers have a spirit that keeps them alive, but they have no spiritual perception of spiritual truths because they do not possess the Holy Spirit of God living in us through Jesus Christ our Lord. ETc. Sorry, but it would take days to answer your question in detail.
God be with you,
Ray
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Luke 23:43 Today you will be with me in paradise. (But they were going to be dead within an hour so how could they be in a place called paradise that very day)
Ray explained this in an email, hope this helps:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4646.0.html
> Ray...in a past e-mail a woman commented on Jesus going to Paradise after
> his death on the cross, you commented that nowhere does the Bible state
> Jesus was ever in Paradise... Luke 23:43 ..."Assuredly I
> say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." Either Jesus was in
> Paradise that day or you are stating that Jesus was a liar.
> Amber O'Brien
>
Dear Amber:
That's pretty strong language to accuse me of making Christ a LIAR, Amber.
You are assuming numerous things that are not necessarily Biblical at all.
What is "paradise?" Where is it? Are you sure? Do you have Scriptural proof?
Jesus "DIED" for our sins according to the Scriptures (I Cor. 15:3). And after
Jesus DIED, He was DEAD (a Scriptural and scientific truth denied by most
of Christendom). God the Father raised Jesus 'FROM THE DEAD' (Gal. 1:1),
which is proof that Jesus WAS DEAD! And if He was DEAD in the tomb,
He was not LIVING at some other location called "paradise." Do I also make
the Scriptures LIE when I present these Scriptural truths? If as you suggest,
Jesus was LIVING IN PARADISE on the very day that the Scriptures say Jesus
would be DEAD IN A TOMB, then there is a contradiction, is there not?
There was no punctuation in the original manuscripts from which our modern
language bibles have been translated. Not that punctuation did not exist in
the SPOKEN language, but it was not put into the written language. Hence,
the very placement of a simple coma (,) can totally change the meaning of
statement: Even in speaking, we can place comas and change emphasis.
Example: "What's that up in the road ahead?" Versus: "What's that up in
the road, a head?"
Here is this same verse from a few other translations:
"Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me SHALL YOU BE [at a future time] in paradise"
(Concordant Literal New Testament).
"And he said unto him—Verily, I say unto thee this day: With me, shalt thou be in Paradise"
(Rotherham's Emphasized Bible).
God be with you,
Ray
PS One day I will write a paper on all the Christian nonsense about Jesus taking a trip
to an alfter-life holding pen, where He supposedly preached the gospel to "spirits in prison,"
when He was supposed to be dead in the tomb, paying for the sins of the world, but not today.
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Boy, 2 years later, re reading this is as good as it was the first time I read it!!
Thanks.
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Its the comma,
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Yes Christ said to him on "that day" Thou shalt be with me in paradise,
So if i said to you today, that you will die, as all men eventually do...does that mean that you will die today?...of course not.
Best way i can explain part of your question.
Chris R
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Thank you everyone for helping me.
It is amazing when I look at the replies and how widely dispersed people are. I am getting help from all over the country and even the world. Keep the insights coming. They are very helpful.
Sincerely,
Dean
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Hi Chris,
There is a wonderful witness to your placement of the comma, and that is that Christ himself did not (as far as we are told) return to heaven to be with his Father immediately following his death. Christ walked this earth before the crucification as a 100% human mand. When he died, his spirit returned to the one whom gave it just as our spirit will likely return when we die.
Mar 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
Ghost - ek-pne'-ō (Key) [G1606]
1) to breathe out, breathe out one's life, breathe one's last, expire
Which is in perfect agreement with the following:
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Kind of deflates the argument of whether or not the forgiven criminal did or not got to paradise that same day, when Christ himself did not return to his Father until much later. (Acts 1:1-11)
Even given this, could not the "paradise" mentioned by Christ refer to the coming Earthly paradise, foretold by Christ? :)
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.
Love in Christ,
Darren
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Rodger,
I think I know what the problem with Dean is He believes the immortal soul and the spirit are one and the same
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Dizzy
I agree with you.
Many inserts from Ray's articles and scriptures from the Word of God, explaining this spirit = soul fallacy, were sincerly posted to his thread. Yet.....YET.... now he thinks a 2nd streamline thread on the imortal soul is needed. ((brillant)) This i do not even get ???
Rodger
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Well Lord help any other new person that has the nerve to not catch on quickly enough for Roger.
That wasn't a rebuke, it was a tirade. Don't use Jesus as an example of that kind of sarcasm
Jesus used sarcasm when rebuking the pharasees, but even after three years of living and teaching
his desciples, he was not harsh with them for not understanding.
I thought that this was a discussion forum. A discussion is a discourse among multiple persons.
It doesn't mean, I tell you once and I don't want to hear from you again.
Roger, you were tearing apart things like sentence structure. What were you so angry about.
I knew that when Dean said "again" that he meant and here is another example, another verse, not that Stephen was dieing more than once. I thought that Dean was confused about the difference between soul and spirit. So he hasn't fully read and understood all of Ray's articles yet. I am starting on my fourth time around on his articles, and still learn something new that I missed the other times. through.
If I had been responded to as Dean was by you, I would not post again if I thought that your's was an example of the kind of welcome that I would get from others on this forum.
I am embarrassed for this forum. :'(
Tim
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Thank you Tim for your post.
I agree with your sentiments. It breaks my heart to see a new person being spoken to in such a disrespectful way. Dean seems quite sincere in his question. He deserves encouragement and council and not sarcasm.
Ursula
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When I was studying a little on the book of Enoch, I found this:
Chapter 8 verse 5 (Slavonic Enoch or 2 Enoch)
"And paradise is between corruptibility and incorruptibility."
Does this get the gears going anyone?
If you want something else to look at, do a search on each time the "tree of life" is mentioned and look up what "paradise" translates to. Remember 1 Cor. 15:53? "For this corruptible must put on incorruption"... What happens in between where there are no activities or thoughts of any kind?
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Well Lord help any other new person that has the nerve to not catch on quickly enough for Roger.
That wasn't a rebuke, it was a tirade. Don't use Jesus as an example of that kind of sarcasm
Jesus used sarcasm when rebuking the pharasees, but even after three years of living and teaching
his desciples, he was not harsh with them for not understanding.
I thought that this was a discussion forum. A discussion is a discourse among multiple persons.
It doesn't mean, I tell you once and I don't want to hear from you again.
Roger, you were tearing apart things like sentence structure. What were you so angry about.
I knew that when Dean said "again" that he meant and here is another example, another verse, not that Stephen was dieing more than once. I thought that Dean was confused about the difference between soul and spirit. So he hasn't fully read and understood all of Ray's articles yet. I am starting on my fourth time around on his articles, and still learn something new that I missed the other times. through.
If I had been responded to as Dean was by you, I would not post again if I thought that your's was an example of the kind of welcome that I would get from others on this forum.
I am embarrassed for this forum. :'(
Tim
I agree Tim, this is just one of the reasons I don't post much here, I am new to the truth also and this is abusive.
Rodger Ray is no where like that... if that is what you are trying to do act like him.
Are we supposed to be so self righteous?
I think not.
I seldom say anything, just read but I can say Rodger you are really a problem.
Rodger you may need to reconsider yourself, you have a problem with anger and lack of self control.
Not everyone has the answers like you seem to think you do.
I have been reading here for about 6 months and posted also, as long as you are allowed to abuse God's people this will be my last post.
I hope I don't have a problem with the mods but you are tearing down not building up.
You can consider there are people searching for the truth and you are a hinderance. Jackie
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Dear Jackie Lee,
Rodger apologized and we are ok with each other. He made an honest mistake. We all have our buttons pushed the wrong way sometimes and say things we later regret. This is the case with Rodger. He didn't mean any harm. He is a good man. Don't let this discourage you.
Sincerely,
Dean
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Hi Dean,
Here are more verses for you in addition to the ones already given. It's become my practice to compile theme papers of verses that relate to whatever subjects I'm interested in. It's easy to copy and paste them from online bibles. As I find a verse that pertains to one of the many theme papers I've got going, I add it to the list. Over time they really start to add up.
These verses refer to death as being like sleep/rest or actually being dead.
Here are some verses from the O.T.
Eccl 3:2, Psa 13: 3, Job 17: 13-16, Gen 2: 7 Eccl 12: 7 [Note: Man, the living soul, is dead], Job 34: 15, Eccl 8: 8a, Dan 12: 2 [Beware the word everlasting], Dan 12: 13, Ezek 18: 4, 20, Josh 1: 1-2 [Our Lord said he was dead], Job 7: 9-10, Eccl 9: 5-6,10, Psa 146: 4, Job 14: 12-14, 21, Psa 89: 48, Psa 6: 5, Psa 17: 15,Isa 38: 18, 2Chron 33: 20, Eccl 3: 18-19.
Here are some verses from the N.T.
John 11: 25-26, 1Tim 6: 15-16, Acts 13: 36-37, Eph 5: 14, John 8: 51-52 [Implied: The 2nd death], 2Cor 4: 14, Acts 2: 29, 34, 1Thes 5: 10, Luke 8: 52-53, Acts 7: 59-60, 1Thes 4: 13-16, 1Cor 15: 5-6, 12-18, 20-23, 29-32, 35, 42-44a, 1Cor 11: 30, 1Cor 7: 39, Matt 27: 50-53 [Some people were raised from the dead back to physical life when Jesus died. Without any doubt, they died (again) later in their lives.]
If you should take the time to copy and paste them then print them out, you will have great evidence that when you die, you really are dead. ;)
By the way there more verses than listed here.
Wishing you the best, Janice :)
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Dear Janice,
Thank you for the verses. I will definitely look them up. I am very close to being 100% convinced of this. I did read Ray's article before starting this post. In fact, he personally e-mailed me and told me where to read. However, I needed a little extra boost so to speak to help me get over the last few hurdles. I find that the insights of other people can often be a great help. Sometimes they can phrase something in just the right way that helps me to see a particular truth more clearly. These types of discussions can put the moderators in a difficult situation because the forum is dedicated to discussing Ray's articles. There is a legitimate concern that people can inadvertently teach falsehood when they act in the role of a teacher. I do understand the moderators viewpoint on this and agree with them that it is reasonable to ask people to abide by these rules. The difficulty is knowing exactly when we are crossing the line and going off on a tangent of our own. I don't want to mislead anyone by making it seem that I agree with everything Ray teaches but I do have the obligation and duty to abide by the rules. I have done my best to do this. I have learned a lot from Ray and hope to continue learning more. Thanks again for providing me with so many verses to look up.
Sincerely,
Dean
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EDIT.................
Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
God says ,Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die
all have sinned and come short.
hows that?
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Hi Rodger thanks for the response, I do read Ray's teaching daily and also read the words of Jesus.
What I was and am saying is when someone asks a question or needs an answer we have to respond with a little kindness.
Dean said you had it worked out between you so I am fine with that.
I really like the way Kat responds always firm but seldom harsh.
She gets her point across very well.
I am not here to cause division so how you respond from now on is between you and God.
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Jackie lee
well said........what can i say ...it's me ;)
Rodger
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ADDENDUM
Some to begin with perhaps....
"You Fools! You Hypocrites! You Snakes!"
Why Jesus Used Scathing Sarcasm
"The Kiss of Death"
"An Encouraging Word About Death "
http://www.bible-truths.com/ (http://www.bible-truths.com/)
No one has to take on any role as a teacher and post unrelated scriptures pulled off E-sword to compound the message already conveyed so vividly in the articles.
No one needs to get on a soap box and proclaim thier own/clik understanding of the Word of God.
The Spirit is your comforter!! not anyone of us are.
Rodger
Well then there's no need for a forum is there? I mean, how much can you discuss SCRIPTURE without using Scripture? If all people did was copy and paste Ray's teachings or just tell people to read it and discuss it without posting scripture, this wouldn't be much of a forum, would it? I understand that you want people to read the whole thing and ask questions later. That's a great desire to have. Guess what. Not everyone will be taught (from God) everything that you have. Some people WILL miss things that God has not chosen to reveal to them yet.
Let me ask you this...What does a teacher teach? what they've been taught just as it was taught to them, or what they've been taught according to the way they they understand how to convey it to others? When I learn something at my job and someone eventually asks me a question related to what I've learned, do I tell them to go read it because it's been covered somewhere else? No. What if they've already seen the answer somewhere and forgot. Do I remind them that they should have already learned that and they should go back and look again? No. Should someone scold me for "trying to take on any role as a teacher" If I do in fact answer a question that they might have?
It doesn't really matter what you tell them has been covered. The Scripture HAS in fact been covered. It's called SCRIPTURE!
These people are only human. Ray teaches as God instructs him and I don't think it helps anyone by imagining a soap box to put people on that don't understand something to the extent that either you or Ray do. Let the moderators determine who is taking the role of a teacher.
your friend,
-Beau
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Jackie lee and Tim
I am not Ray nor try to be ! But in whorshipping God in Spirit we are like minded.
If you do not have the common courtesy to read the articles Ray has written, then post on here questions, ALREADY COVERD to your hearts content and explained.
Then you show the audacity to ask for love, from people who have asked your stuborn selves to read, you will not get everything handed to you here, unlike in the world churches where your preacher, deacon, reverend, gives you a song and dance of salvation and SPOON FEEDS you heresy and blasphemies.
Here you have to READ and let loose your Spirit, is that too much to ask of you to DO !!
I DO NOT take on any role of teacher. By God's will Ray is an inspired vessel used.
Articles explaining your What's,, Why's,, Who's,, Where,, and When's even.
On the Bible-Truths web site articles is:::
Explained is the undisputed, unchallenge Turth, there is no hell !!
Explained is the undisputed, unchallenge Turth, all man will be saved !!
Explained is the undisputed, unchallenge Turth, WE all must die !!
Explained is the undisputed, unchallenge Turth, the Lake of Fire is not eternal torment !!
Explained is the undisputed, unchallenge Turth, man has no imortal soul !!
Explained is the undisputed, unchallenge Turth, man has no FREE WILL !!
Explained is the undisputed, unchallenge Turth, tithing is unscriptual !!
And many more beutifully Spiritual treasures.
STOP being lazy and READ, the rest of us did ! we read them over and over and over and over...ect.
God has brought you here , WHAT do you expect now , for God to open the web site to the articles you should read,, perhaps you want God to surf the web site for you,, and maybe print some articles for you,,, then do a litte research on scripture.
This is an entire study on the SPIRITUAL word of God, and well.......you have to study. You learned to study in your grade school years, remeber ?
Ok 1st time around they may ask what pencil , paper , book and study are we using, but comon then in the same breathe they ask.....
DUH.....What's this pencil for ? DUH.....What's this paper for ? DUH.....What's this book for ? DUH....What are we studying ?
Oh the pain of READING, but you must. Oh the pain of searching but you must. Oh the pain of opening your spiritual eyes but they must. Oh the pain ,,the pain......
Now some may ask " but Rodger why you so mean and forcing people too read...you meany.."
Answer is i am directing to where God is ! God is WAITING for YOU in those SPIRITUAL SCRIPTURES, in those WORDS OF LIFE, IN ALL THOSE INSPIRED WRITTEN ARTICLES by Ray.
I am but a measly hierling to show YOU WHERE THE SHEPHERD IS, OPEN the BOOK of LIFE and enter.
CHOICE IS YOURS
Rodger
Thank you Rodger for those inspiring words. When I read the papers two or
three times, each time I see something I didn't see before.
Thank you!!!
Iris
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Iris you are most welcome
Just a reminder i myself need in times. please never hold back in reminding me.
God bless
Rodger
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What is going on with this topic? We should study the Bible, ask questions and try to understand more each day. No one is a prophet that I can think of or even able to write the inspired Word of God. All of us are just babies in the overwhelming knowledge of God. The Bible has been written and by people who were there! Ray is a man with some articles he wrote. Many other writers, teachers, professors study and write papers relating totheir field. We read and understand what we can but shouldn't be pounded down if we do not agree with something or we have a question about something. Someone wrote something about this being Ray's site that he maintains. I still don't know if it is his or Craig's or who owns the forum. If questions and thoughts are not permitted it really isn't a forum of discussion. I realize in the rules it says the forum is to discuss what you learn at Bible Truths. Questions sometimes lead to a better understanding of the subject the forum is about.
All we have to go on here online is how we speak to one another. Respect can lead to a great discussion.
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I still don't know if it is his or Craig's or who owns the forum.
It's definitely not mine, Dennis and Ray started things. I just help guard the hen house :D
If questions and thoughts are not permitted it really isn't a forum of discussion.
Wrong, But I agree it is not like the other 99% of the forums out there. And the restrictions won't be to everyones liking.
I realize in the rules it says the forum is to discuss what you learn at Bible Truths
As long as you realize this and don't push the envelope you will have very little problems here.
Respect can lead to a great discussion.
Agreed, and it must go both ways. When members join and agree to the rules and terms of membership, they need to respect what is asked of them.
Craig
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UncleBeau
I WROTE::
No one has to take on any role as a teacher and post unrelated scriptures pulled off E-sword to compound the message already conveyed so vividly in the articles.
NOW ! where did i say not too post any scripture at all? I do not see it, can you please POINT it out to me UncleBeau ?
wait a minute Rodger....where did I say "any scripture at all"? Could YOU please point that out to ME? Let's see if you go to extremes and absolutes any where else...
UncleBeau WROTE::
If all people did was copy and paste Ray's teachings or just tell people to read it and discuss it without posting scripture, this wouldn't be much of a forum, would it?
WHERE DID this even come out of, yourself perhaps. No way did i convey the above, less you add more into what you read.... ::)
I think you are the one who is reading into my word more than what was said. I love to hear people "compound" a message if it's correct. Does that not show that they understand it? Is it not a good thing to see that, or is it annoying for you? Before you decide to quote me on that and pick apart my words, understand I'm not assuming that you're annoyed by people copying and pasting from esword....but certainly am thinking it loudly.
UncleBeau WROTE::
Guess what. Not everyone will be taught (from God) everything that you have.
The SCRIPTURES SPIRITUALY are what being taught !!
To who, Rodger? You? Obviously not me or anyone esle that "compounds the message", or why would you say something as mean and cruel as this...
Until you or some one else comes up with or believes to have a more precise inspired interpretations of the Word of God, as Ray inspired by the Holy Spirit too write, Then go open your own web site and maintain it.
Yeah...that is a pretty extreme length to go to in order to prove whatever your point is. I don't think I even need to respond to this statement, Rodger. I know for a fact that Ray does NOT talk to people this way. So if you'd like to learn from him and only him, than you should stick to his principles and not this. I NEVER said I or ANYONE has a "more precise inspired interpretation" than anyone....and I'm sorry, but I won't be openng my own website anytime soon.
And what of the SCRIPTURE " all will know righteousness...." do we disregard it aswell ?
In what manner would I disregard scripture, Rodger? I think you're a little foggy on WHEN "all will know righteousness". I think you should go back and read Ray's teachings.
UncleBeau WROTE::
Let me ask you this...What does a teacher teach? what they've been taught just as it was taught to them, or what they've been taught according to the way they they understand how to convey it to others?
This is a big disagreement on my part, why you may ask. For the reason MANY do not see the SPIRIT as the comforter and deny the Holy SPIRIT's truths.
Why would you disagree? Why do you think that so many people teach the same subject but include and take out certain things? Because they all understand it differently! This is the point that I've been trying to get across to you, Rodger! Rather than picking apart words and quotes, try looking at what they're saying. By the way, what you said here has absolutely NO relevance to what you replied to. Do you understand that there's a difference between denying and never seeing?
It is the Spirit THAT CAN ONLY DISCERN the WORD of God and only the SPIRIT alone can do this,,,,,now UncleBeau and any others who MIGHT deny this, did you come to these truths on your OWN? If so ...please by all means explain away....
And just when did I imply this, Rodger? Didn't I just say (FROM GOD) when you quoted me saying Guess what. Not everyone will be taught (from God) everything that you have.
? Is not God's Spirit the Holy Spirit, Rodger? I think maybe you should go back and read Ray's articles.
We were all taught about hell, tithing, imortal soul, free will, traditions, ceromonies...ect of the worldy church. How do you think, suppose, assume, speculate, by chance, we all here, separate the worldly beliefs from the Truths of God ?? do you honestly believe a mere man does it for us all ??
We were ALL taught? All of us? When was this? just now? Yesterday? Does not GOD determine who learns what? Who is this "mere man" anyway, Rodger?
UncleBeau WROTE::
When I learn something at my job and someone eventually asks me a question related to what I've learned, do I tell them to go read it because it's been covered somewhere else? No. What if they've already seen the answer somewhere and forgot. Do I remind them that they should have already learned that and they should go back and look again? No. Should someone scold me for "trying to take on any role as a teacher" If I do in fact answer a question that they might have?
And should you teach them wrong, your ok with being held accountable, should you leave something important out or perhaps ferget a prerequisite your ok with your student getting it wrong.
Was that an answer to any of those questions? I guess if you can assume that I'm ok with someone "getting it wrong", then I can assume you believe you don't need to address my questions.
The Holy Spirit is OUR COMFORTER we NEED nothing more !
If this reply contained "nothing more" than accusations and assumtions, maybe I'd believe that you practice this.
If you do not believe Ray's articles are inspired by the Holy Spirit, and think yourself a better teacher over the long years Ray has put in, well by all means go open your forum and have a go at it. Or better and easier yet, take the challenge of proving one OLD scripture text on the Bible-Truths web site wrong and witnesses it with 2 others OLD scriptures.....
Sounds like you have an agenda here, Rodger. What brought THIS up? Did I EVER say ANYTHING even remotely close to this? You sure are spewing out a lot of "IF"s. Take WHAT challenge? Is this a challenge for you? Did I evr say that Ray was wrong in anything? Not once....and what's with this OLD scripture stuff you're saying...where's the NEW scripture?
UncleBeau WROTE::
It doesn't really matter what you tell them has been covered. The Scripture HAS in fact been covered. It's called SCRIPTURE!
These people are only human. Ray teaches as God instructs him and I don't think it helps anyone by imagining a soap box to put people on that don't understand something to the extent that either you or Ray do.
YAHOO !! I am with you on this ...........you go guy.......ah errr.. friend ;D ((one exemption you can leave me out of any comparison to Ray, I could not even put a 6 piece puzzle together))
If you're with me on this, then you'd have no reason to reply. I don't think you read ANY of what I wrote in the above quote EXCEPT for where I mentoned you.
Let the moderators determine who is taking the role of a teacher.
your friend,
-Beau
A M E N
One last thing can we ALSO let the moderators determine who is taking the role of a hierlings as well ??
Honestly Rodger, you can call yourself whatever you wish.
your pal, your bud
Rodger
I hope that you eventually see that I wrote to you in my original post for the purpose of letting you know how inapropriate your attitude is about how and when people learn. they are doing their best in GOD's timing. I've heard nicer posts on myspace. When you start to cut people down, insult, assume, and make rash remarks, you are NOT acting as a loving brother in Christ. Instead of picking apart people's statements, try helping them as your brothers and sisters do, not as Ray responds to his detractors. Will you learn anything from this? I love you brother, I really do, but I see an obvious problem with your attitude concerning what God is doing with his children and When he does it. We are instructed to correct. If you think that I'm portraying myself as some better teacher than Ray, then you really miss the point of instruction and fellowship. What's the point in learning something like "there is no hell" If you can't help others coming in to the truth instead of saying READ, READ, READ. You're correct that the Holy Spirit IS our comforter, but why do you suppose He works THROUGH US?
your friend,
-Beau
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UncleBeau
i have only ONE question left......" WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ???
Rodger
Ps. go read some more then come back.
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Hey Falcon, I don't understand some of what you write and why you come across harsh but it is your way and for that I do have respect that you stick with and stand on who and what you believe.
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I always thought it was weird to have a resurrection...if we were already in heaven, like Christindom teaches. But before I'm to pursaded by Ray's teaching I'd like to know the answer to Matthew 22:32.....
"I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
Any thoughts on this? This is the main verse blocking me from accepting that the dead are, in fact, dead.
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Dear Oblivion,
When I first came to this website I sent Ray an e-mail asking about this issue of the immortal soul. Here is what he wrote to me:
Dear Dean: See HELL Part C for a detailed discussion on the subject of the human SOUL.
God be with you,
Ray
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
Remember, this is a response to the Sadducees who say there is no resurrection. The Sadducees believed that when people die they stay dead. Jesus is showing them that they are wrong about the resurrection. He was not telling them that they have an immortal soul. I too used to think this verse was teaching the existence of an immortal soul but came to see after much study that I was making an unwarranted assumption.
I believed in the doctrine of an immortal soul for many years but can now see after much study that there are multitudes of reasons for rejecting this belief. The best thing you can do is continue to study. Read Hell Part C if you have not already read it. You will find it very helpful. I don’t think Ray discusses this verse specifically but the article will give you a lot of insight on this doctrine.
Sincerely,
Dean
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To further add on to Dean's response (mostly for my own understanding)...
When God appeared to Moses in the burning bush, he said "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"... (Exodus 3:6). I think this is a type or a shadow of some thing to come, namely, the resurrection of the dead. Jesus confirms this in Matthew 22:32, but we get a better understanding I think in Mark 12:
Mar 12:26 And as regards the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses how God spoke to him in the Bush, saying, "I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob?"
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. Therefore you greatly err.
Jesus himself confirms that yes, the dead are dead but they will rise. Immortal beings aren't dead and therefore cannot be resurrected.
At least that's how I see it. :)
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What is imortal is the Spirit that God breathe into man to make a living soul.
Thus the Spirit returns to it's erternal origin.
the body decays and the Spirit returns is how i simple read it through out Our father living Word.
Rodger
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I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
Hi dean and good morning.
do you understand that verse? or may i ask what your take on it is?
peace
chuckT
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Dear chuckT,
I will be happy to give you my personal understanding of it. However, let me first explain that I have a sequential way of looking at things. Other people are more intuitive but I am not so fortunate. So, I always try to fit things into a bigger picture whenever I am trying to understand them. When I first started studying this subject I assumed that the Bible taught the existence of an immortal soul. Therefore, I tried to make every verse conform to this assumption. The more I studied the more I started to see that there are good reasons for rejecting the doctrine of an immortal soul. However, I still was not totally convinced because of verses such as the one you are asking about. Or for example, Luke 23:43 could lead someone to think that we have an immortal soul. However, as I learned, no punctuation was used in the original Greek so where a translator puts the comma, before or after the word day, will determine how you understand the verse. The hardest thing to overcome in seeing the truth on this subject is our own preconceived ideas. Nobody was more deceived on this subject then I was. The Bible is filled with statements that can be hard to understand. We all have a tendency to fit those verses into the framework of our own understanding. At this point in my life I look for alternative explanations for any verse that on the surface could lead me to think we have an immortal soul. I think the key to understanding the verse in question is context. I think the phrase that causes the confusion is, "not the God of the dead but of the living." If we believe man has an immortal soul we are going to see this verse as proof. However, once we realize that the overwhelming testimony of the Bible teaches that man does not have an immortal soul we will look for another explanation. My explanation or understanding is simply that Jesus was dealing with some Sadducees that were teaching there is no resurrection. Jesus wanted to show people that they were wrong about the resurrection. Showing that the resurrection is a reality is the entire point of what Jesus is teaching to these people. So when Jesus says "but of the living" he is not saying they are at that moment in time actually alive in heaven. The point Jesus is making is that if God says I am the God of Abraham...etc, but yet these people are dead and gone without any hope for a future resurrection then how could he be their God. Death is just a temporary sleep, so in the eyes of God we are just sleeping and will be resurrected at the appointed time. This is my take on it. I hope I have conveyed my thoughts well enough to be of some help.
Sincerely,
Dean
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Dear chuckT,
I will be happy to give you my personal understanding of it. However, let me first explain that I have a sequential way of looking at things. Other people are more intuitive but I am not so fortunate. So, I always try to fit things into a bigger picture whenever I am trying to understand them. When I first started studying this subject I assumed that the Bible taught the existence of an immortal soul. Therefore, I tried to make every verse conform to this assumption. The more I studied the more I started to see that there are good reasons for rejecting the doctrine of an immortal soul. However, I still was not totally convinced because of verses such as the one you are asking about. Or for example, Luke 23:43 could lead someone to think that we have an immortal soul. However, as I learned, no punctuation was used in the original Greek so where a translator puts the comma, before or after the word day, will determine how you understand the verse. The hardest thing to overcome in seeing the truth on this subject is our own preconceived ideas. Nobody was more deceived on this subject then I was. The Bible is filled with statements that can be hard to understand. We all have a tendency to fit those verses into the framework of our own understanding. At this point in my life I look for alternative explanations for any verse that on the surface could lead me to think we have an immortal soul. I think the key to understanding the verse in question is context. I think the phrase that causes the confusion is, "not the God of the dead but of the living." If we believe man has an immortal soul we are going to see this verse as proof. However, once we realize that the overwhelming testimony of the Bible teaches that man does not have an immortal soul we will look for another explanation. My explanation or understanding is simply that Jesus was dealing with some Sadducees that were teaching there is no resurrection. Jesus wanted to show people that they were wrong about the resurrection. Showing that the resurrection is a reality is the entire point of what Jesus is teaching to these people. So when Jesus says "but of the living" he is not saying they are at that moment in time actually alive in heaven. The point Jesus is making is that if God says I am the God of Abraham...etc, but yet these people are dead and gone without any hope for a future resurrection then how could he be their God. Death is just a temporary sleep, so in the eyes of God we are just sleeping and will be resurrected at the appointed time. This is my take on it. I hope I have conveyed my thoughts well enough to be of some help.
Sincerely,
Dean
Hi Dean and greetings.
yes our preconcieved ideas get in the way.
we know the dead know nothing, they give no praise they are waiting resurrection they dont need a GOD if you will :o
the greek actually says "i am not the god of the dead ones" but "of the living ones"
but we now know Christ is both Lord of the living and dead those who are awake and those who sleep.
and so in Christ all will be made alive as all in adam where made dead.
so in a sense the soul is "immortal' its just not reality yet, its just not manifested. or put on.
your thoughts?
thanks and God bless
chuckt
ps also i went back and reread this article and its pretty darn good.
http://bible-truths.com/death.htm
Sleep is a way that God can set people aside for a little while as He works with our children and our children’s children. Centuries and millennia will pass for some, yet they will know no death, only consciousness. From our perspective we will never know anything but life and consciousness. Death won’t even be an illusion: it won’t be AT ALL. And that is because "The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything."
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Dear Jackie Lee,
Rodger apologized and we are ok with each other. He made an honest mistake. We all have our buttons pushed the wrong way sometimes and say things we later regret. This is the case with Rodger. He didn't mean any harm. He is a good man. Don't let this discourage you.
Sincerely,
Dean
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What a thread. He needs to apologize to others. This is not the first time.
Reading this thread gave me that feeling you get in your stomach after eating fast food. Taste good but it is not nutritious. Gas pains. LOve is patient and kind. If it is not spoken in love I don't want to hear it.
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mrsnacks
Look who is calling the kettle black,,,, do you not think for one minute, your implimations of your world religion in this forum does not offend some here. Through several of your post you hold on to and try to preach forth your ideas from wrold religion. I am still waiting for your apology...but not holding my breathe....too each thier own way by God's will i say !
Let us get one thing clear hear i asked forgiveness from DEAN had i upset him in his SINCERENESS TO LEARN, >> I did not apoligized<< . So please do not hold your breathe.... i am how God made me and i do not appologized for God making me so....period 8)
gemme a break ::) ::) ::)
Rodger
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rodger:
is the eternal spirit breathed into man the same as the HOLY SPIRIT??
you said:
((God is eternal, breathes an eternal spirit to add with the body)))
does not that in and of itself open a whole other set of questions??
was it only adam in whom God breated and since life is in the blood does he really "breath" in each of us??
1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
how many spirit's do we have in us?
your old pal
chuckT
ps.
im just being the way God made me.
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The soul is immortalised only when God says so.
That is the bottom line but it sure looks like that this fact hurts some but is more acceptable to others. ;D For those who find it acceptable...welcome to loving the Word of God and appreciating what He alone can cause to understand and appreciate through His Spirit of Wisdom Truth, Love and Power.
For those who would have others receive equal appreciation of Gods Truths, it is only according to God to reveal to who He selects to have this knowledge. Understanding comes from God's Spirit.
Rodger, do you not know that there are those who can read with blind eyes, hardened hearts and sterilised minds and think they are very cleaver not to agree with what they read? Oh no! That would take away their identity as unique and thinking individuals who by default never agree to ANYTHING. There are those who can hear with deaf ears but understand nothing. For me these are the dead burying their dead claiming it is God who is silent while it is them who are deaf. Woe to anyone who would point that out! :D ;D That would be too mean or unkind....I speak sarcastically! ;D :D
We are among the living who love and accept what we are taught through Ray that is unparalleled in any time before and could well be unparalleled in any time in the future. Woe be to detractors and peddlers of their own doctrines and pet errors and sentimentality's.
Falcon....I enjoy your being open, direct, honest and challenging, testing and making the walking wounded get up off their comfort zones to stand up to walk out of the sick room of errors. Sure, some will snarl, bite and get nasty...or remain in receipt of perceived benefits for non agreement. For me that is why Jesus asked if the man on the mat wanted to be healed. He did not take it for granted that this sick man wanted to be healed! Some LIKE to be sick!
The Scriptures are clear and Ray presents unequivocal clear and supported evidence for the truths in the Word of God. Some will enjoy it and others will dispute it....fight against it using misinformation that appears to be their life boat to a destination they alone see and desire. Blind eyes can see you know! I speak sarcastically. ;D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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We are among the living who love and accept what we are taught through Ray that is unparalleled in any time before and could well be unparalleled in any time in the future. Woe be to detractors and peddlers of their own doctrines and pet errors and sentimentality's.
hi arcturus
what do you mean here? the underlined part?
thanks
chuckt
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Just what it says...! :D ;D
Here is some scriputure to back up.
Peter describes the church in the latter days:
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily [secretly] shall bring in damnable [destructive, fatal, disastrous, ruinous] heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And MANY shall follow their pernicious [lascivious, licentious, wanton] ways; by reason of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness [greed, lust] shall they with feigned words MAKE MERCHANDISE OF YOU" (II Pet. 2:1-3). Other renderings:
"Motivated by greed, they will exploit you with their counterfeit arguments" (Berkely Version).
"…in their lust they will exploit you with cunning arguments" (Moffatt Translation).
http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html
Peace to you chuckt
Arcturus :)
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Just what it says...! :D ;D
Here is some scriputure to back up.
Peter describes the church in the latter days:
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily [secretly] shall bring in damnable [destructive, fatal, disastrous, ruinous] heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And MANY shall follow their pernicious [lascivious, licentious, wanton] ways; by reason of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness [greed, lust] shall they with feigned words MAKE MERCHANDISE OF YOU" (II Pet. 2:1-3). Other renderings:
"Motivated by greed, they will exploit you with their counterfeit arguments" (Berkely Version).
"…in their lust they will exploit you with cunning arguments" (Moffatt Translation).
http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html
Peace to you chuckt
Arcturus :)
gotcha!...thanks 8)
be well and grace to you.
chuckt
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AMEN!
....and also to you! :)
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Dear Rodger,
Thank you for clarifying. Sorry I used the word apologize. I should have used the word forgiveness because that is the word you used. Although after thinking about it I don't even think you did anything that needed to be forgiven. I think you are a dedicated servant of God and you were only doing what you thought was right. I can totally appreciate that.
By the way, I really enjoyed reading your story.
Sincerely,
Dean
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I can't find the verse, but doesn't the bible say that Jesus went and preached to the people of Noah's day or something like that, when he was crucified?
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That is a major point in most faith-churches. Type in "prisoners" on e sword or on Ray's email. I would but I gotta go. I will check back in a few hours, I hope.
PS I always believed that until I read Ray.
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Hello Oblivion582
The verse you refer to I believe is 1 Peter 19,20 In which He (Christ) went and preached to the spirits in prison. 20. The souls of those who long before in the days of Noah had been disobedient, when God's patience waited during the building of the ark in which a few people, actually eight in number ,were saved through water.
Paul taught:
1 Cor 10:4 And they all drank the same spiritual drink. For they (The Hebrew forfathers) drank from a spiritual Rock which followed them and the Rock was CHRIST
Mystery Babylon teaches that while Christ was DEAD He was alive preaching to the DEAD who were alive in the days of Noah. That is utter garbage! This reveals that Mystery Babylon mislead into deception to believe that the Scriptures are wrong and that when you are dead you are actually alive some place else. This false teaching is a lie against the Word of God and leads astray MILLIONS of would be believers, into bondage, blindness and oppression.
Christ, as Paul teaches, is the SAME GOD of the OT. They knew Him not then and they know Him not now. Rom 11 : 25 For I would not, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits; THAT BLINDNESS IN PART IS HAPPENED TO ISRAEL, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
If you believe what Paul taught:
Heb 11 : 7 Prompted by faith Noah, being forewarned by God concerning events of which as yet there was no visible sign, too heed and diligently and reverently constructed and prepared an ark....8. Urged on by faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed...11...also Sarah hereself received physical power to conceive a child, even when she was long pat the age for it, because she CONSIDERED GOD Who had given her the promise.....13 THESE PEOPLE ALL DIED....So did their God Jesus Christ who was appearing, leading and guiding His people from the beginning and will continue to do so to the end of time!
Mystery Babylon would not tolerate you believing that when you die you only live again through the Resurrection to life that is JESUS CHRIST. They teach another Jesus and another doctrine of lies and hypocrisy heresy and blasphemy. Paul stated to Timothy
1 Tim 4:1,2 But the Holy Spirit distinctly and expressly declares that in latter times some will turn away from the faith, giving attention to DELUDING AND DEDUCING SPIRITS AND DOCTRINES THAT DEMONS TEACH. 2. Through the HYPOCRISY AND PRETENSIONS OF LIARS whose consciences are seared.
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
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1 Peter 19,20 In which He (Christ) went and preached to the spirits in prison. 20. The souls of those who long before in the days of Noah had been disobedient, when God's patience waited during the building of the ark in which a few people, actually eight in number, were saved through water.
Oh are you saying that Father God, through Christ, preached to the sinners BEFORE the flood? Not AFTER the crucifiction?
Thanks for yall's help, by the way.
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Oh are you saying that Father God, through Christ, preached to the sinners BEFORE the flood? Not AFTER the Crucifixion?
Christ IS the God of the OT. Christ preached to the sinners..The souls of those who long before in the days of Noah had been disobedient,.....is what the Scriptures say. AFTER the Crucifixion, Christ is present through the Holy Spirit, HIS Spirit who teaches us all things and guides us into all Truth.
Col 1:27...For this is the secret: Christ lives in you....
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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What about where the Bible talks about Jesus resurrection and Him being with the disciples for a time before His ascension?
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Arc, boy I learned a lot. Thanks for your post!