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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Oblivion582 on July 21, 2007, 06:45:50 PM
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I know this topic has most likely been runned down to the ground when it comes to the mortal soul. BUT, I was just wondering what are the most common objections to death not being death? If I tell someone when we die, we're dead, until the resurrection, what scriptures will this someone come back at me with, opposing the idea? And if you could, comment on the "objecting" scriptures.
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A lot of the answers you are looking for are on this page.
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html
Ray gives lots of examples and then gives the answer.
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Read: "Lazarus and the Rich Man."
http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html
- jER
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Dear Oblivion,
Here is my thought. This belief has been so ingrafted into peoples thinking during the past 6000 years that they really have no idea why they believe it. I've read hundreds of books on religion and talked to hundreds of people and listened to hundreds of sermons and not once did anyone ever even ask the question, "Do we really have an immortal soul." It is an assumed belief. The first time I heard someone say we did not have an immortal soul I was shocked. It sounded totally delusional to me. I think the reason it took me so long to see the truth even after I starting studying the subject is because it took me time to overcome my emotional attachment to it.
I have now read many of the objections to the belief in a mortal soul and there are very few verses that even hint that we have an immortal soul. The strongest philosophical argument against belief in a mortal soul is the fear that we will not be the same person. People feel that if we don't have an immortal soul then we will really not be the same person when we are resurrected. They believe that we are really being re-created not resurrected. They say this makes us a different person.
Sincerely,
Dean
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I have always wondered if our memory will be intact?
I think it would be really neat to wake up after many years even hundreds and remember what happened before they died.
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And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna (Matt. 10:28).
What does this mean? It sounds like someone could kill a person, but not their soul? I thought if you kill someone, their soul dies? It sounds like Jesus said people can kill the BODY...but not the soul. Any thoughts on this?
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Hi Falconn,
Cool diagram :)
I think people fear the unknown and that is what death is to them. Regardless that Christiandom teaches they will go to heaven, since there is no scripture to explain their vague teaching, people don't have confidence. So death is a great unknown and it scares people. They hang on to the hope that they are immortal and will pass into some Paradise.
The scripture that I think they use;
2Co 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
They say this verse means they will immediately be with the Lord at death. Not so, 'to be' does not mean immediate, they read that into it because of their false way of thinking.
When they awake they are going to be with the Lord alright, but it will be at the great white throne judgment. They are not taught they will have to give account, they think their sins are forgiven and that's that. When they are made to face up to their lusts, it will be a tormenting experience to get rid of them.
Death is not to be feared. The judgment is.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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2Co 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
It sounds like he's not even talking about the resurrection. The resurrection = body/spirit. He said to be 'absent' from the 'body'. When the resurrection comes, we'll be present with our bodies. So...maybe he's talking about crucifying the flesh?
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This is a wonderful teaching that helps us to get focus on our job in obedience to christ. peggy
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Hello Oblivion,
Actually I can see it as Paul looking forward to the resurrection even as he experiences this dying to the flesh.
Hi Rodger,
Yes! A new incorruptable body, no longer subject to sin.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
The destruction of this body of sin and to be resurrected incorruptable should be the hope of us all, seeking Him in Spirit is our walk, our journey, the crucifying of our carnal nature and the conception of His Spirit within us is what gives us that hope.
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Hello Kat and Joe.....waves....
Good point Joe,,,,,,,,,,I see both ways really ;)
Rodger
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Thanks guys. Keep the comments coming because I want to be totally convinced of this. I've seen alot of the scriptures that say we're dead...but I now I just want all the objections settled. But not only will it be clear for me, I'll be able to have a answer to the fundies.
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The objections lie with you not believeing the Word of God and nothing else is to blame. The Holy Spirit brought forth unto you ALL THESE SCRIPTURES and If not one of these scripture and 2 witnesses implanted the truth, for what they are, in you. Then your are pottery for a different purpose my freind.
peace and conviction
Rodger
Rodger, Let people express themselves. Oblivion is here to learn, he should be free to ask any question he wants.
Your brutal words do not edify anybody. Remember we all not alike, perhaps by the grace of God you are quick at renewing you mind but not all are like you. So, remember that patience, kindness are part of the elements of the fruit of the Spirit.
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Hello Prosizz
Have you met Jesus lately? Here He is............
"But WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES… FOR YOU SHUT UP THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN AGAINST MEN…
…THEY BIND HEAVY BURDENS and GRIEVOUS to be born, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but will not move them with ONE OF THEIR FINGERS
WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES… you DEVOUR WIDOW’S HOUSES… you shall receive the greater damnation.
WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES…
WOE unto you, ye BLIND GUIDES…
You FOOLS AND BLIND…
You FOOLS AND BLIND…
WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! You… have omitted… JUDGMENT, MERCY, and FAITH…
You BLIND GUIDES, which strain out a gnat, and SWALLOW A CAMEL.
WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES… within they are full of EXTORTION AND EXCESS.
You BLIND PHARISEES…
WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! You are FULL OF DEAD MEN’S BONES, and ALL UNCLEANESS… and HYPOCRISY and INIQUITY…
WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES!… you are the children of them which KILLED the prophets. FILL YOU UP then the measure of your fathers.
You SERPENTS, you GENERATION OF SNAKES… you KILL AND CRUCIFY… you SCOURGE in your synagogues… Behold your house is left unto you DESOLATE"!!
WOW! Every one of these comments from Matt. 23 were spoken directly to the "Religious Scholars and Theologians" in the Church of God centered at the Temple in Jerusalem. Would Jesus speak in the same manner to the Religious Scholars and Theologians in God’s Church today? Does Jesus "change"? NO. Has the Church changed in the past 2000 years? YES. It has gotten WORSE.
http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm
:D ;D....
Prosizz
Babylon has for century's taught us to be sweet, cushy and cozy and never to ruffle any feathers! We are not supposed to be sitting ducks and a firm word or two sometimes works to shake us out of our Babylonian apathy and spiritual coma.
Have you ever witnessed someone flat lining and the medical team gather round to give a electric shock... Stand clear... and BOOM!... and the person wakes up. That is good medicine! Sometimes this forum is like ICU or I see you!
The call "Don't electrocute the patient you cruel beast..." just might kill him....not the beast :D...the patient! :D ;D
All in love Prosizz...fear not!...
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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We aren't Jesus. We are mere humans and are trying to learn and understand what we can. There does not need to be criticisms directed towards those of us who learn in a different manne than someone else.
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We aren't Jesus but we are supposed to be LIKE HIM! ;D :D 8)
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Exactly! We are supposed to be like Him! The sacrifice, the love, the forgiveness, the doing unto others. I am no judge of people being that we all sin. i know Jesus slapped that whip around in the temple and I know it was because people were not giving their best as the custom of that day. They were "robbing" God by giving the least of what they had instead of the best. I can't judge you or anybody else because I don't have that ability. According to the e-mails Ray gets some people judge him according to how and what he writes. Is that right? No! Can others judge me? You can try but do not have that right.
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Hi seminole,
i know Jesus slapped that whip around in the temple and I know it was because people were not giving their best as the custom of that day. They were "robbing" God by giving the least of what they had instead of the best.
Here is the scripture you were referring to.
John 2:15 When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers' money and overturned the tables.
v. 16 And He said to those who sold doves, "Take these things away! Do not make My Father's house a house of merchandise!"
Jesus ran them out of the temple because He said, "Do not make My Father's house a house of merchandise." This sounds like He didn't like them selling things and making money. This sounds a lot like what is a common practice for preachers today, selling there ware(books, cds, videos) in the church. What would Jesus say about that?
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Thanks prosizz. And Falcon, you have to understand I come from a religious home with a (pretty much) one minded dad. I want to be clear on ALL the scriptures so when I see what looks like a contradiction, I want somebodys input. I asked God to reveal some truth to me and wouldn't you know it...He lead me to bible-truths.com.
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mate!,
dez pple r jus lookn 4 Help not 2 b critised or spoken harsh of, Wen JESUS spoke like HE did whom!! was d@ 2??, cum on get real!, yes! b like JESUS! NOT!! be JESUS! wakeup!!, who wants 2 b around pple like dis, man! I had enuff of d@ sh#$* wen I was a Gang member, Im startn 2 c not much difference, Jus know, We LOVE!! GOD wit all our Hearts, Souls, Minds & Strength, az I presume uZ! do 2??.
muchLOVE!! Pera
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Well there you go........The Holy Spirit is express outward from others and comes to you within.
OOH yeah thats right...God can't use people. I felt God was telling me this is the truth but how dare I simply ask HIS people for a little confirmation.
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Oblivion582!!,
Keep strong!! in the name of the LORD!, keep the Faith!!, do not lose site of Whom drew U! here & Y!, GODBlesS! U!, Peace b with U
muchLOVE!! Pera
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mate!,
dez pple r jus lookn 4 Help not 2 b critised or spoken harsh of, Wen JESUS spoke like HE did whom!! was d@ 2??, cum on get real!, yes! b like JESUS! NOT!! be JESUS! wakeup!!, who wants 2 b around pple like dis, man! I had enuff of d@ sh#$* wen I was a Gang member, Im startn 2 c not much difference, Jus know, We LOVE!! GOD wit all our Hearts, Souls, Minds & Strength, az I presume uZ! do 2??.
muchLOVE!! Pera
Pera, I think I have to agree. I think I can see a little of both sides of what people are trying to say when they say, "Be like Jesus". Sometimes people need a little wake up call. But here's my problem. Jesus was given the full measure of the spirit, and with total validity spoke with authority. He is the son of God!!! None of us have the full measure of the spirit yet, and although many may be more spiritually mature than others, I still don't think that gives them credibility to try and speak like Jesus who knew the hearts of men inside and out and knew exactly what He was doing and knew exactly what people needed to hear and exactly when they needed to hear it. Do any of us seriously believe we have that kind of authority???
WOW! Every one of these comments from Matt. 23 were spoken directly to the "Religious Scholars and Theologians" in the Church of God centered at the Temple in Jerusalem. Would Jesus speak in the same manner to the Religious Scholars and Theologians in God’s Church today? Does Jesus "change"? NO. Has the Church changed in the past 2000 years? YES. It has gotten WORSE.
Are all of you who claim you can hand out criticisms like Jesus suggesting that the people on this forum who are seeking to understand and asking questions and looking for confirmation are "Religious Scholars and Theologians"?????? You've never even met any of the people here face to face, how do you even assume you know what they are all about, let alone know their hearts. Ray has more valid reason to respond in his emails the way he does, because most of the time he is being attacked by people who insist they know better, but he is not seeking to fellowship with those thousands of emailers.....he gives them their admonition and he's on to the next email. This forum is suppose to be a place of fellowship people!!
Sorry, it's late over here in Canada. I love this forum but I am getting a little weary of some posters' constant "attempts" to be "sarcastic" like Jesus.
Peace,
Diana
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Hi Oblivion582,
I think it would be helpful to read all of the papers that Ray has written.
It has sure helped me. I'm still reading, going back over them several
times. Every time I read back over a paper I see something I didn't see
before.
Iris
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I love this forum but I am getting a little weary of some posters' constant "attempts" to be "sarcastic" like Jesus.
Diana,
You make a good point. Sarcasm is a two edge sword. When Jesus used it, it was to upbraid the religious scholars and teachers of his time. These were the ones who were leading the people to destruction. Also Jesus was perfect and did not have to worry about the "plank" in his eye.
Ray uses sarcasm when answering the religious "scholars" of our time. They may not be preachers and teachers, but they are spouting doctrine that is completely false. When a person writes Ray with questions that are searching and trying to understand, Ray does not generally answer with sarcasm. Much is due to discernment that Ray is given.
When a person comes to the forum, and you suspect that it is a person who does not share our beliefs. It is helpful to us as moderators for the membership to "try the spirits" with pointed questions. As we have said, with enough rope this person will eventually "hang" themselves. But, BUT I wish the membership would leave it to the moderators to show these persons the door, and not take it upon themselves to drive them away with personal attacks and sarcasm. If we want to throw "stones" are we any better than the "religious types" of Jesus' time?
The moderators will start deleting posts that attack another poster. Ask questions, tun up the heat with pointed questions if you feel led, but leave it too the moderators to decide if a person belongs or not.
The moderators have probably been asleep at the switch lately, for that I apologize.
Craig
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I was about to answer Arcturus and Rodger posts when I read what Diana and Craig wrote so I will leave at that. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
God bless.
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I think we're missing the overall point here and correct me if I'm wrong...
"Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man." (john 8:15)
Jesus did not judge men because of their words, EVER. Does the book of revelation say anything about judging them according to their words? NO! Why? Because their words are out of the abundance of the heart (Matt. 12:34) and in heart ye work wickedness (Psa 58:2)
"I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness." (Rom. 6:19)
"There is therefore now NO condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom. 8:1)
Does that say WALK after the spirit? Yes it does. Does that say "talk the talk"? NO! Why not?
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him NO MORE. (2 Cor. 5:16)
We knew Him after the flesh, that's why! Any MIGHT say that Jesus was sarcastic, I call it His personality in the flesh. Now, NO ONE knows Him in the Spirit. and I can prove this:
...no man knoweth the Son, but the Father (Matt. 11:27)
We are to be like Him through knowing the Father. We know Father by Him being revealed to us through the Son. (Matt. 11:27)
Is how Jesus talked EVER to be on our priority list as to building our character? My opinion is no. We see love by what He did, not what he said; and by this, WHO he said it to makes nothing different. Would you not get angry and sarcastic at people that teach lies to your children? YES! BUT, after the flesh!(as even in the flesh, Jesus was righteous) Through the spirit, we are told to love our enemy. This is my overall opinion: WE CAN NOT WALK AFTER THE SPIRIT WHEN OUR FOCUS IS HOW WE KNEW HIM AFTER THE FLESH!
your friend,
-Beau
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Craig, thanks for writing what you did as well as many others. I believe you got to the heart of the matter. We aren't Jesus. We can't know the hearts of people like the Father does. Again I say a big Thank you!
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Jesus did not judge men because of their words, EVER. Does the book of revelation say anything about judging them according to their words? NO! Why? Because their words are out of the abundance of the heart (Matt. 12:34) and in heart ye work wickedness (Psa 58:2)
Hi Beau,
Please forgive me if I misinterpreted your point, but words are very important in my understanding. We must constantly pray for discernment and understanding as well as the fruits of the Spirit of Christ as we continue our journey with the Lord.
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life and out of the holy city and from the things which are written in this book.
There is a lot more that I could have added but I think you can clearly see where I am coming from, if I misunderstood please elaborate a bit more as to your train of thought.
Also I thought it might be appropriate to restate the purpose of Bible Truths as it reads at the top of Ray's page.
This site is a ministry of love. We charge for nothing; we have nothing to sell; we ask for nothing. All we at bibletruths have full-time jobs to support both our families and this site. The site requires thousands of man hours and thousands of dollars annually to operate. It is FREE to all. And our goal is to teach the Truths of God as He has given us understanding.
There is, however, a two-fold commission in teaching the Gospel of Christ:
"...that he [the elders] may be able to [1] entreat with sound teaching as well as to [2] expose those who contradict" (Titus 1:9, Concordant NT).
Unfortunately, many are offended that we would "expose those who contradict" God's Word They accuse us of being unloving, unkind, or bad-mouthing God's anointed. Untrue. Nowhere do we attack the person or character of those who oppose God's Word. So please don't confuse our mission of "exposing" as an "attack" on the character of a person who contradicts God's Word.
May God richly bless all those who have a real love of the Truth!
L. Ray Smith
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Hi Joe,
My response was for the purpose of those that, like many have been discussing, are talking about Jesus being sarcastic for whatever purpose they're discussing it. I apologize If I was thought to say anything else. To my understanding, Jesus rebuked the Pharasies because of what was in their heart, right? Not because they were wanting to be taught and they were just not getting it? That was my purpose, nothing more. But, like I said, if I was wrong in anything I said, help me to be correct about it; but honestly I've heard others complain enough and I wanted to show my opinion on why I don't think the manner of which Jesus spoke has anything to do with walking in the Spirit. Of course I believe everything He said was Truth, but I believe his mannerism of dialect is irrelevant. I do understand it is hard for me to word correctly though. I'll try to make my point without giving such an impression next time.
your friend,
-Beau
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Beau, I for one agree with you. I can't judge a man's heart. That is for our heavenly Father. I do believe that sarcasm from us is not waranted but to walk in the spirit of love that Jesus was the example of for us all. Most sincerely, Seminole
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I recommend a look into Rays first teaching on this site. Excerpts from http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm
"Well, YOU ARE NOT Jesus!" Oh really? And what happened to,
"…because AS He [Jesus] is, SO ARE WE in this world" (I John 4:17),
and
"Let this MIND be IN YOU, which was also in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 2:5)?
LET THE DEAD BURY THEIR DEAD
"And another of His disciples said unto Him, Lord, allow me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow Me, and LET THE DEAD BURY THEIR DEAD" (Matt. 8:21-22).
Do you think maybe that disciple was offended by his Master’s words? Jesus was saying that those preparing this funeral and burial were as dead as the corpse they were about to bury! Jesus asked this disciple to "follow Me" and let dead people take care of dead matters. But consider that this was the disciple’s own father. Are we not to "Honor our father and mother?" Of course we are, but when Jesus asks us to follow Him then our allegiance to our parents, children, or loved ones take second place to that command. We must be willing to forsake all to follow Jesus! Jesus was leading this disciple to things of life, while this particular disciple desired to sooner attend to things of death. One cannot serve two masters.
Diana
Before I answer your question I want to add that your posts have been a real treasure to read and show depth insight and sensitivity. I am sad that it wearies you that there are, as you observe, some...not many no doubt...who are...as you say....TRYING to be sarcastic like Jesus....I know I appreciate sarcasm so I think you include me as being one who is wearing you out! That is not good news I can assure you!
You note : None of us have the full measure of the spirit yet, and although many may be more spiritually mature than others, I still don't think that gives them credibility to try and speak like Jesus who knew the hearts of men inside and out and knew exactly what He was doing and knew exactly what people needed to hear and exactly when they needed to hear it. Do any of us seriously believe we have that kind of authority???
No one has the kind of authority that Jesus had of course not. But WHY OH WHY is the Babylonian teaching so dependent on a lovey dovy, softy sissy Jesus who was no where near a push over, lukewarm coward!!!
Ray says (and I firmly believe and exhort others to realize this too!) .... I fully realize my papers grind on the spirits of those who oppose God’s Word. And well they should. Why shouldn’t we quote the Scriptures with authority--the Scriptures are authority.
"For He [Jesus] taught them as one having AUTHORITY and not as the scribes" (Matt. 7:29).
Jesus got His authority from His Father, and He used it. In fact, the very words He spoke were the words of His Father and not His own (John 17:8), hence the Father too uses sarcasm and anger in teaching us (our Lord and His God have more personality than most have ever imagined). What a broad range of colorful metaphors, parables, and colloquialisms they used. Add to these sarcasm, exaggeration, satire, irony, and true anger, and we have powerful, powerful, persuasive language and teaching.
Paul too used scathing sarcasm. Jesus was THE MASTER OF SCATHING SARCASM...Ray Smith...Paul too followed in the like mindedness of Christ and exhorted his brethren to copy him.
There is a HUGE false teaching that hooks onto the soul with cords of sentimentality and carnal feel good emotions that are far from the intimacy with Christ and very near to the affections of man that I see in a battle for credibility. The do goodie feel goodie two shoes v/s the carrying of the cross brethren of Christ who have come out of Babylon.
Ray notes the following : God told Isaiah to:
"Cry ALOUD, SPARE NOT, lift up your voice like a TRUMPET, and show my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins" (Isa. 58:1).
Likewise, as a servant of God I cannot expose the evil and hypocrisy in the Church and in this world with a song in my heart, a smile on my face, and a chuckle in my voice! Sorry, but that won't get the job done. I laugh considerably more than almost anyone I know. But try to palm off the evil and vile doctrines of the Church to God’s "little ones," and my countenance changes instantly!
Is not THAT the mind of Christ? 8)
Joe
Thank you for your appropriate and light at the end of this tunnel post. :D ;D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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I don't think it is being said to be a "lovey dovey Jesus" but is said that we should show love to others.Is there any here who has the mind of Christ? As has been stated many times, we are growing and becoming but are not there yet. It seems to me that throwing the "doing unto others" as all the "lovey dovey Jesus " stuff into a box that many say the church does is no different than someone else saying that "sarcasm and criticism" sets you apart. It doesn't. It is just another "boxed up" way to beat somebody down.
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Can you say that to Jesus?...The Master of Scathing Sarcasm and unbridled criticism? (Rhetorical question!) :D
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Hello everyone,
We should be temperate in all things (1Cor 9:25) and not choke a babe who requires milk by force feeding meat. Also, those who tend to be easily offended really need to look in the mirror as well, I have seen many times questions posed or statements made and the brethren here give thoughtful, wise and compassionate council only to have the questioner not respond to the answers. Is that an honorable thing? Is it not also a rude rebuke?
I really believe this Forum affords us the possibility to grow in patience and understanding as long as our pride doesn't get in the way. If you have a problem with a brother or sister's statement or attitude why not try to seek understanding first, if that does not solve the issue contact a moderator, let us mature together in His Spirit and not waste this incredible opportunity by self righteousness or a stiff neck.
Psa 75:5 Lift not up your horn on high: speak not with a stiff neck.
Jer 17:23 But they obeyed not, neither inclined their ear, but made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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I don't have a problem with people flaming other people. I usually get a kick out of it anyway. But when you claim to be like Jesus because you ACT all big and bad to someone who is NOT trying to go against you, or your beliefs, is pretty lame, in my opinion. But now that I think everyone has made some valid points, lets get back to the original subject.
Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.
Psalm 116:15
I know this doesn't say "as soon as a godly person dies, he goes to heaven" but I was wondering what do yall think?
I was watching tv last night and wouldn't you know it...they were talking about when christians die they go to heaven and they used this verse with a few others.
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There is a HUGE false teaching that hooks onto the soul with cords of sentimentality and carnal feel good emotions that are far from the intimacy with Christ and very near to the affections of man that I see in a battle for credibility. The do goodie feel goodie two shoes v/s the carrying of the cross brethren of Christ who have come out of Babylon.
Arcturus my dear sister, I do understand what you are saying. I'm not at all suggesting that we need to act in some false extreme and be "lovey dovey", or as I like to say it "mushy gushy" ; :D. I do have a sense of humour though I may not always show it! But my understanding of what Ray is saying still stands. He directs his sarcasm to those who are prideful, blind to the truth, and what's more important, are passing off their babylonian lies to others with a "know it all attitude". While I agree we can expose heresy, lies, and sins, not every situation warrants that we do this with sarcastic criticism (the woman at the well, and the adultress woman come to mind). If you detect a wall of pride and an unwillingness to learn, then by all means fire away. But everyone processes information differently, and some, I believe are sincerely and honestly struggling.
I'm also not suggesting that those who have been given some thoughtful guidance to the right studies and information, should irritatingly continue with their same questions without doing some work and giving it time and prayer. I know some of the things I have had a frustrating time understanding, have hit me sometime later in total clarity. I have learned God works like that with me, so that I'll never forget the revelation comes directly from him, and not from my own supposed "intelligence".
Anyways, thank you for your kind words Arcturus, and know that I too appreciate your posts and insights. I have always had a pull to root for the underdog, since I've always felt like one myself. But I probably should have stayed silent on this issue since I know for a fact God has not given me the kind of discernment some have in calling people out. Besides, the moderators know how to do this best, and kudos to them.
Peace and love to you sister, and to everyone else!
Diana
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The Bible mentions many kinds of tongues:
a flattering tongue (Psalm 5:9)
a proud tongue (Psalm 12:3; 73:9)
a lying tongue (Psalm 109:2; Prov. 6:17)
a deceitful tongue (Psalm 120:2)
a perverted tongue (Prov. 10:31; 17:20)
a soothing tongue (Prov. 15:4)
a healing tongue (Prov. 12:18)
a destructive tongue (Prov. 17:4)
a mischievous and wicked tongue (Psalm 10:7)
a soft tongue (Prov. 25:15)
a backbiting tongue (Prov. 25:23)
James also talks about the tongue. He says it's a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things. He calls the tongue a fire, the very world of iniquity. James says it is untameable, a restless evil full of deadly poison, used both to bless God and to curse men. But James also told us that a man who doesn't stumble in what he says is a perfect man. (James 3:2-10)
The tongue is unruly we just need to know how to use it for each circumstance.
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Excellent point and well made!
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1 body + 1 SPIRIT = 1 living soul
(o)
b s { spirit ((LEAVES body goes back to God))
>---o p ---< /
d i /
(bullet)---------- ~ + y r EQUALS =
0 i \ I
0 t \ I /
/ \ { (o)body00 (( is buried, decays, returns to dust))
I \
peace and understanding I
Rodger
Thanks Rodger for the picture to understand, not complete understand yet, but understand better more than before. It's good. You know I was thinking about this verse (Matt. 10:28) like Jesus said men can kill body but not able to kill soul unless God can, right. One body and one spirit equal living soul. Okay, so, how can men kill only body (dead) as unconscious and at the same time the soul (men unable kill the soul) still living soul (not dead) as conscious? Know what I mean? If not understand my question, let me know and I will try more clear another sentence. I remember I send e-mail to Ray about soul in two years ago, I will look for it and paste it in the same post.
This verse is the most difficult understand for me for long time even before (spiritual blindness) and after (remove spiritual blindness). I let it go and not to worry about it until I saw your picture. That is how I'm curious this. ;D
Brett :D
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With endurance and patience here is an excerpt from Ray:
Notice also Peter's stern warning regarding what was happening in the past in his time, and what was prophesied to continue until our time and beyond:
"But there were false prophets [a ‘prophet’ can mean one who speaks in behalf of God’] also among the people, even as there shall be [future] false teachers among you [and among US], who privily shall bring in [Gk: smuggle in] DAMNABLE HERESIES, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And MANY shall follow their pernicious [destructive] ways; by reason of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of [Gk: ‘blasphemed’]" (II Pet. 2:1-2). http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm
So for me, Patience, that fruit of the Spirit that is used to peddle and make merchandise of Gods Word and meanings and is idolised and vehemently guarded as meaning ....tolerance for evil. Kindness to the wolves is cruelty to the sheep.
Paul said : Heb 5:11 Concerning this we have much to say which is hard to explain, since you have become dull in your spiritual hearing and sluggish even slothful in achieving spiritual insight. 12 For even though by this time you ought to be teaching others, you actually need someone to teach you over again the very first principles of God's Word. You have come to NEED MILK, not solid food. 13 For everyone who continues to feel on milk is obviously inexperienced and unskilled in the doctrine of righteousness, of conformity to the divine will in purpose, thought and action, for he is a mere infant not able to talk yet!
My point is this. There are false teachers among us....US. As Paul notes, those on milk can not even talk yet. Those who can speak...should they keep quiet? I do not think so. In fact Scripture warns against keeping back the truth. I have been blessed by the truth via Newbies in this very Forum!
1 Peter 2:7 To you then who believe, who adhere to , trust in, and rely on Him, is the preciousness; but for those who disbelieve, it is true, The very Stone which the builders rejected has become the main Cornerstone, and A Stone that will cause stumbling and a Rock that will give offense; they stumble because they disobey and DISBELIEVE GOD'S WORD, as those who reject him WERE DESTINED, APPOINTED TO DO.
Joe....you quoted OT. I noticed that. I do not think the patience in the NT means tolerance of evil I think it means patience under persecution, opposition and rejection. In other words, patience that bleeds out of the endurance from pain in following Christ rather than taking the pup wolf by the paw and leading it into the sheep fold and ignoring or berating the sheep for bleating while silencing the lambs as some would do!
Diana
I will not keep quiet unless and until the Lord directs. He will have His way it it might be sooner than later...read on... :D
Rodger
Thank you for you post. To add
http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm I quote from Ray: "Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do THESE [these vessels of dishonor in God’s House] also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the truth. But they shall proceed [Gk: ‘increase, advance, grow’] no further [Just as Jannes and Jambres could resist God only so far and no further, so too, will these corrupt-minded reprobates in God’s House cease to deceive God’s church, when God makes all secrets known to all]: for their folly shall be manifest unto all, as theirs [Jannes & Jambres] was." (II Tim. 3:8-9)...................
Then in another part in the same paper...
"Yes, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But EVIL MEN AND SEDUCERS [Gk: ‘imposters’] SHALL WAX [grow] WORSE AND WORSE, deceiving, and being deceived" (II Tim. 3:13).
That part is prophesied...it is not going to go away and I get much comfort from this fact that this is the plan and word of God. Endurance is the flip side of patience and it suffers and bleeds sometimes where as the dressed up counterfeit of patience is piety with a flip side of tolerance for idolatry as the currency of Babylonian heresies.
And just who is it that grows "worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived?" The men and women of the world? The pagans and heathens? Is this what Paul means? Of course not. These are the leaders of the Church.
"Preach the word; [the WHOLE Word of God]; be instant in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine [Who? The world? The pagans? The atheist? Why they have never had sound doctrine in the first place] but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (II Tim. 4:2-4).
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Joe....you quoted OT. I noticed that. I do not think the patience in the NT means tolerance of evil I think it means patience under persecution, opposition and rejection. In other words, patience that bleeds out of the endurance from pain in following Christ rather than taking the pup wolf by the paw and leading it into the sheep fold and ignoring or berating the sheep for bleating while silencing the lambs as some would do!
Hi Arcturus,
I thought the verses I presented from the OT (which I believe to be just as relevant as the NT) captured the point I was trying to make. Should we be rigid in all our interactions with our brethren? Can we discern a misguided idea from a person who is honestly searching?
What do you believe is the "fruit" Christ speaks of here?
Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
There is no doubt that heresy and blasphemy must be addressed with a two edged sword when it is continuing from the same source.
How do we deal with our children when they make a mistake due to ignorance or immaturity?
If one were to come to this Forum and spew evil doctrines I can assure you they would not be here for long, but patience with some who don't quite "get it" yet is a godly thing to do. The apostles were with Christ Himself for 3 and a half years and still did not "get it."
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Gal 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
Php 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
Last but not least we have this from Paul on how we should deal with our brothers and sisters;
1Th 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Sorry to butt in a conversation of those who know more. Just wanted to ask if I am reading that those of us who are still learning and finding our way should not say anything further? If so, how do we get the wisdom to know when we have reached the level necessary to post something?
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Brett
The Spirit is incorruptible, the body((flesh)) sins.
The Spirit, sort of enters a state liken to sleep, the body decays.
Do a little dirty work, research the ancient old text word that is translated into SOUL ,in that scripture.
And post your findings on here.............i'll be be waiting for your post on what you come up with.
wisdom and tranquil
Rodger
Hi Rodger,
Thanks for the answer. I will do my best understand in Matt 10:28. Still want more discussing, not that challenge or whatever but trying to understand if God will, you know. Maybe we need move to new topic of "Matt. 10:28"? Because maybe the moderates would locked this post for some reason. What you think? Anyway here I have email from Ray in two years ago when I first time found his site:
Hi Ray,
I have read and study it in your site. I learned something that person dead and is in hade (unseen, sleep). The question I have for you:
Soul in hade (with unseen)?
And the spirit gone with God but not in heaven? (this one stupid question I had ::))
If spirit with God or heaven, will have seen like conscious? If yes, how can person/soul in hade unseen and his spirit seen at the same time?
Of course, I understand your writing about hade, sleep, unseen, wait until Jesus come again (resurrection). The reason why I ask you is because 1 Cor. 15:51 said not all fall asleep, yet, other scripture said 'sleep' and 'unseen'. This is confusing to me, it is not about you, it is about the scripture, real sleep or not sleep at all. Hope you can help me. I extremely appreciate your time and help.
Thanks,
Brett
Dear Brett:
At death, we are DEAD. Completely DEAD. We know NOTHING. It is NOT sleep, but it is LIKE sleep, in that you are NOT CONSCIOUS, and you do not dream--you are DEAD.
Your "spirit" is what gives life to YOUR BODY. The spirit doesn't think or talk or dor anything CONSCIOUS, except give LIFE to your body. That spirit goes back to God IN HEAVEN (where ever God IS, IS heaven), but it has NO CONSCIOUSNESS. It cannot "think" without a body.
The body at death, begins to decay and return back to the soil of the ground.
The "soul" is your consciousness (your thinking, feeling, etc.). At death it just completely ceases to exist AT ALL. That ceasing to exist at all is called "the UNSEEN" or hades in the Greek and sheol in the Hebrew. It is not a PLACE, it is not a GEOGRAPHICAL LOCATION, it is not UP or DOWN, it is just NOTHING (the UNSEEN, UNKNOWN, IMPERCEPTIBLE.
God be with you,
Ray
I have something new in my mind about Matt. 10:28 and want to comment and see if I am right or not. But let me think first before comment. I don't want another stupid question (or comment) like I did to Ray. ;D
Addendum:: BRETT
What attributes do the scriptures describe of the Spirit, such as love, enlightenment, mercy, healing, caring, Faith, worchiping...ect.
What do you brett attribute to the spirit of God in accordance to the scriptures.
Can any of those attributes be seen physically, be felt physically........ect
Sorry, I'm not sure I understand. Is that question? Or just comment?
I would hope once you Brett can get a more solid grasp of WHAT the Spirit consist of, you can be led by the Spirit and be enlighten to How the Spirit works/actions.
Thank you, Rodger.
cauliflower and tylenol
Rodger
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Brett
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Should we be rigid in all our interactions with our brethren? Can we discern a misguided idea from a person who is honestly searching?
Ephesians 3:17-19
"That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God."
I Corinthians 13:1-13
"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity (LOVE), I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity (LOVE), I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity (LOVE), it profiteth me nothing. Charity (LOVE) suffereth long, and is kind; charity (LOVE) envieth not; charity(LOVE) vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity (LOVE) never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now, I know in part; but then shall I know, even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity (LOVE), these three; but the greatest of these is charity (LOVE)."
Matthew 22:36-40
"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment and the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
I John 3:1
"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God."
It appears that the perpetual corrector understands the importance of truth, but often misses the requirements of love, and kindness.
- jER
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Should we be rigid in all our interactions with our brethren? Can we discern a misguided idea from a person who is honestly searching?
No, that is a job that should be left for a moderator. Not that we need any more jobs, but that is something a moderator should weed out. I know some may not agree with all our decisions but hopefully they'll agree with 50% at least ;)
Craig
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Hi Joe,
Beautiful post!
Ursula
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Hi Joe,
Beautiful post!
Ursula
I think so to!!!
Iris
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Hello Joe
To become Christ like is our reward.
We have to be either hot or cold! ;D 8)
Joe, you ask : Should we be rigid in all our interactions with our brethren?
Matt 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness is more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
So how RIGID must we be? Is this getting a bit icy already?… As in uncompromising, unyielding as flint and having no fellowship with darkness…. or not?….I know Joe is not a coward that will run… so let me warm up a little.…
In the Forum we can answer only what is written. We know little else about one another to go on. We have no insight into what pains, burdens or sufferings a member is enduring in the background of what they contribute. That is a good thing because such information can sway, manipulate, confuse, add to the slur of deceptions that teach and lead into condescension towards man carnal sentimentality's. Paul wrote that he was : ."resolved to know nothing, to be acquainted with nothing, to make a display of the knowledge of nothing, and to be conscious of nothing among you except Jesus Christ the Messiah and Him crucified." 1 Cor 2:2
How does this scripture talk to you? What do you understand by it?
Rays teachings state : First, let me state my position succinctly:
1 Whatever we teach must "glorify" God
"Glory to God in the highest..." (Lk 2:14)
"...that in all God may be glorified..." (1Pt 4:11)
2. Whatever we teach must not detract on iota from Christ’s sacrifice for all humanity.
....there is one....mediator between God and men....Christ Jesus......" unquote
Should WE not have the same standards ? I think yes we should.
There was a beautiful discussion on this very point where Joe and I were caused to exchange some precious insights with others who also powerfully contributed gems of wisdom to this question. So there is no need to go over these questions here and now but for those who may want to visit or revisit this exchange it is available on the tread at : http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2392.0.html
I believe that, as Ray is accountable, WE too are accountable and have to answer to what is written on the Forum. Our membership is not without accountability to God. Either that or we can stand back and observe what is the abundance of the heart as expressed in what is written and do and say nothing. Some cannot say or do anything but observe, learn and pray and to them there is no condemnation. Participation may be either active or passive seen or unseen. There are those however, who are called to lower the standard of right standing with God, and are appointed to do so.
Should we not all agree that Ray is not one who is lowering right standing before God? On the contrary. Ray elevates understanding and faith and knowledge of Christ. We should, but we don’t all agree with Gods teachings through Ray. Paul and Christ certainly were not among those appointed to lower, deceive and mislead. Christ, Paul, The Word of God and Ray our teacher in this generation are role models to right standing and knowledge of God and His Son Jesus Christ no matter how rightly or wrongly, agreeable or disagreeably we view this fact.
We are NOT, in this world or in this Forum, as we should be, all building up Christ’s body to know His Character Ways and Thoughts. We are not all developing until we attain unity in knowledge of the Son of God that is vividly expressed and revealed in Rays teachings. If I lie, then the notification that not all the things that are written in the Forum are endorsed by Ray and agreed by Ray to be the truth, can be removed. Can this disclaimer be removed? NO. The sooner we grasp the nettle of the fact that there are false teachings carried by some of us, among US in the Forum, the sooner this can be repaired. Christ has not yet returned and the work is still on to labour in the field. The Forum is not outside the field. It is a very privileged part of it.
Joe you ask : Can we discern a misguided idea from a person who is honestly searching?
Sure. Some of us can and then what? Do we turn left or right? Do we focus on the misguided (FOOLISH, OR UNREASONABLE ESPECIALLY IN ACTION OR BEHAVIOUR…) idea? Do we respond as Rodger says quote : "[1] preach with sound doctrine and [2] refute those who contradict it"
[Titus 1:9 - The New Revised Standard Version]
And to add 2 Cor 10 : 5 Inasmuch as we refute arguments…ARGUMENTS. and theories and reasoning’s and every proud and lofty thing that sets itself up AGAINST THE TRUE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD; we lead every thought and purpose away captive into obedience of Christ.
Do we, do you, do I, does anyone, do as Christ says to do OR do we turn left into guiding or directing wrongly away from exposing lies, in avoidance of challenging rebellion against the truth, with self investing pride that inflates and puffs up making for MORE ignorance of the truth, doting over questions of the law, debating’s, splitting hairs and pitting factions against others, envying, sour tempers, strife’s over doctrines, perverse and vain arguments, rejecting the truth because of corrupt minds, being destitute of truth but rich in fallacies and doctrines of emotions, seeking personal gain, railings, evil speaking, evil surmising and suspicions? (All the above are traits of FALSE TEACHERS ref 1 Tim 6 : 3-5)
Joe you ask should we be RIDGED? YES Joe…WE SHOULD! Not as rigormortis in a chorus of dead letters of the word in self assured piety gathered together in mutual agreement that together make a dead body, but ridged as in individually responsive to the call to overcome deception and GETTING INTO THE FACE OF carriers of Babylonian gaff increasing pig food of Babylonian feel good ideas, fables and false teaching! HEY we do not have to go out and look for it….I am not suggesting that for a moment!
The blade of the wheat gatherer is curved and it cuts as it gathers to God not man gathering to himself. The harvest has been great…indeed 2000 years great in years not numbers saved or chosen. In each generation few not many are gleaned/called out from the many Babylonian false teachings deceptions, heresies and blasphemies. Few get dragged out. Many stay in. God made this so.
Should we get upset with God for this? NO.
Should we rail against Gods ways and get into debates and arguments with them who are in Babylon? No. Should we upset ourselves that many are deceived? No. For such a time as Gods Mercy to them, they are made to be subject to reprobate minds, errors and blindness. Should we despise the lies and heresy though? YES! Should we expose such? YES. Should we do so then give up in defeat that still the blind are blind and the deaf and the false teachers remain so and get more followers right before our very own eyes even among them who say and appear at first glance to be our own brothers and sisters? NO!
You ask me Joe : What do you believe is the "fruit" Christ speaks of here?
Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
Precisely! The patience to endure the circumcision on the heart that breaks under the trial and strain of the call to overcome the fact that God has made it so that the wicked increase against the truth, as evil seducers wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Tim 3:13
It is exactly ENDURANCE and enduring and overcoming the call to speak SMOOTHY the SMOOTH things that prophesy DECEITS Isa 30:10 and in NOT yielding to temptation or resisting evil with evil but by endurance of heart break still turning the other cheek and keeping ones face as flint knowing and sharing with Christ the evil surmising, covert hostility, criticisms for being cruel, mean or unsympathetic and all the slander false accusations and persecution and hate that calls us to OVERCOME not yield to temptation but leave to God our judgment who is the fair Judge of all men. In so doing to walk in the word of God being judged of no man though we be slandered, hated, rejected, railed against and persecuted for 1 Cor 2:15 the spiritual man tries all things, he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things, yet himself to be put on trial and judged by NO ONE…
Why NO ONE…? So what is persecution, being hated etc? Is that judgment of man? NO it is because the spiritual man has his trust in God His trial is not of man but of God bringing judgment to HIS House via the tests and trials of mans slander, through the onslaught against God loving hearts that can see evil prosper for the brevity that it triumphs. (which for man could be for the entire duration of his life time if chosen. )
And Bulls eye…the call of Christ to ENDURE the HATE for this life that is engulfed by perilous times, surrounded by lovers of their own selves, blasphemers, trucebreakers, false accusers, fierce despisers of those who are good, traitors, high minded haughty lovers of their own ideas and imaginings rather than lovers of Christ, deniers of the power and teaching and CHARACTER of Christ who are ever learning and NEVER ABLE TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, compromisers, lukewarm middle of the road stuck on the fence cowards…..enduring this Joe is the fruit of patience as I see it whose virtue is under sever trial and testing from holier than thou peace keeping idolatry of harlot Babylon via her representatives and cronies.
You observe and then ask: There is no doubt that heresy and blasphemy must be addressed with a two edged sword when it is continuing from the same source.
How do we deal with our children when they make a mistake due to ignorance or immaturity?
How do WE deal with our children? Lets look at how GOD deals with HIS CHILDREN and lets not make GOD into OUR OWN IMAGE….Lets NOT DO THAT or teach that or endorse such sentiments Joe. At our PERIL we do that!
Rev 3: 19 THOSE WHO I DEARLY AND TENDERLY LOVE, I TELL THEIR FAULTS AND CONVICT AND CONVINCE AND REPROVE AND CHASTEN, I DISCIPLINE AND INSTRUCT THEM. SO BE ENTHUSIASTIC AND IN EARNEST AND BURNING WITH ZEAL AND REPENT, CHANGING YOUR MIND AND ATTITUDE.
Only ********, snakes, fools and hypocrites, whitened sepulchres, harlots, children of the devil and those who do not do the things Christ are the wolves who will want to be saved from Gods tender love! They will rail at and whimper in carnal accusations of feelings hurt who deny the pruning sheers of God that cuts the branch that will not grow and the branch that bears fruit. The despise the winnowing fork of God. Only the ones wanting to be SAVED FROM CIRCUMSISION will seek fellowship comfort zones in harlot teachings. Woe to them who gather to themselves the plagues of Babylon.
You ask : How do we deal with our children when they make a mistake due to ignorance or immaturity?
OUR CHILDREN? WHO’S CHILDREN? ….IGNORANCE? What is ignorance? It is a lack in knowledge, awareness or being unenlightened. So how should we respond:
2Cor2:17 For we are not like SO MANY like hucksters making a trade of peddling God’s Word, shortchanging and adulterating the divine message; but like men of sincerity and the purest motive, as commissioned and sent by God, we speak HIS MESSAGE in Christ, in the very sight and presence of GOD.
1 Cor 2:13 And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language to those who possess the Holy Spirit. ( So…Who’s Children?) 14 But the natural, nonspiritual man DOES NOT ACCEPT OR WELCOME OR ADMIT INTO HIS HEART THE GIFTS AND TEACHINGS AND REVELATIONS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD….( Which children? Devil kids aren’t going like to think I am their Mother that’s for good and sure I think! And their parents friends and family are not going to like me much either!)
There is some ignorance that has MATURED to great levels of maturation in that they pose confusion and beg sentimentality and compliance to their fears of rebuke for loathsome crooked beliefs that do nothing to show Christ and His Character or HIS ways. You need not look very far and there are some appalling examples of such that come across the nostrils as a stench from perdition…that is if your nostrils are open like mine that is! Oh for endurance!
Heb 12 : 6,7 For the Lord corrects and disciplines everyone whom He loves, and He punishes, even scourges, every son whom He accepts and welcomes to His heart and cherishes. 7. You must submit to and endure correction for discipline; God is dealing with you as with sons, For what son is their whom his father does not train and correct and discipline?
Perhaps open nostrils are God’s way of training! Closed eyes noses and ears are for those who hear not see not and smell not! Ignorance is bliss to the ignorant. Woe, persecution, rejection oppression and persecution to those who would threaten their bliss.
Okay so that part deals with IGNORANCE…now to answer your question on how to deal with immaturity, or children who are not fully grown or developed, who are lacking in wisdom, insight, emotional stability? Well go for it Joe. THERE your selection of scriptures come forward into perspective to rightfully and scripturally to nurture the teachable Children of God. Pearls are not for the rebellious, idol clinging closed nosed blind and closed eared children of Babylon. Rebuke is perchance they should repent and find favour with the Lord.
Immature children are in both camps. The camp of God and Babylon! By their TEACHINGS and BELIEFS and PREFERENCES you shall know them! Will they or do they gnash their teeth when their idols are smashed? Or do they kneel in cleansing goodness of God’s Spirit of goodness that brings them to tearful remorse and heart cut repentance? What and who is this God we call God? Baal or Christ? Who are the children of the first resurrection and the second?
To children of God wisdom is food not poison. The scriptures expound this difference too between the way a wise person will receive instruction and the way a fool rejects it and hates you for it too. So…. Children…you say… Which children? Children per se! NO. Weak emotional debutants of social harlotry, idolater and prom bearers of deceptive emotional carnal prideful self willed blindness. NO. Not mine! Don’t know them! Their Dad is someone I do not entertain under my roof. That Father of lies is persona non-gratis with all his wives, fellowship circles and concubines too!
So what is the fruit of patience.?.... For me, in my personal experience it is Endurance under suffering without quitting no matter how evil things get or how much the evil enlarges, no matter how the stench of deception rises….endurance to the end….seeing the beam or mote…not the dust….NO DUST JOE! And being beaten by slander, false accusations, persecution hate and rejections….in other words…this being the way into the Kingdom of God via such trials.
You make your point well Joe ...that the Apostles were with Christ for three and a half years and still did not get it BUT Heb 12 : 5…have you completely forgotten the divine word and appeal and encouragement in which you are reasoned with and addressed as son?
Can Paul say this to you or I Joe? : O you poor and silly Joe and Arcturus. You thoughtless and unreflecting and senseless….WHO? (Which CHILDREN HAVE….) fascinated or bewitched or cast a spell over you, unto whom –right before your very eyes – Jesus Christ was openly and graphically set forth and portrayed and crucified? Let me ask you this one question : Did you receive the Holy Spirit…Then does HE Who supplies you with His marvellous Spirit and works powerfully and miraculously among you do so on the grounds of your doing what the Law demands, or because of your believing in and adhering to and trusting in and relying on the MESSAGE that you heard. Ref Gal 3
THAT MESSAGE IS LOUD AND CLEAR IN THE TEACHINGS VIA RAY SMITH!….You Fools You Hypocrites! You Snakes! I hope aren’t MY kids!..I do not want to baby sit devils or provide a nursery for snakes.
Finally you quote this Joe : Last but not least we have this from Paul on how we should deal with our brothers and sisters;
1Th 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
Is Paul talking about how we should deal with OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS?
I don’t think so. He speaks of ALL men ….being patient!…Being patient as we experience times when many follow their own ways and evil ascends to the heavens as in the days of Noah.
Matt 13:12 For whoever has spiritual knowledge, to him will more be given and he will be furnished richly so that he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Will the children of God understand and the children of Satan rebel? Yes.
Hey Joe…I enjoy chatting with you! Perhaps next time just ask me one question!…at a time! My questions are all rhetorical! To be answered in the inner private closets of those who care to search, seek or respond with their own answers, thoughts and desires to know God.
Seminole
…..you ask how do you get wisdom to know when we have reached the level necessary to post something?….
LEVEL…What LEVEL? No such thing! Wisdom by definition is the comprehensive insight into the ways and purposes of God NOT a LEVEL where you can post or not. The beginning of Wisdom is : GET WISDOM (Not for knowing when to post in the Forum! But AS) SKILLFUL AND GODLY WISDOM. (That is as God wise to God and knowledge of Him and His Son) For skillful and godly Wisdom is the principal thing. (So you are on the right track with the wrong reason perhaps!) And with all you have gotten, get UNDERSTANDING, DISCERNEMT, COMPREHENSION AND INTERPRETATION.. ….
There is PLENTY opportunity to exercise to get understanding, discernment, comprehension and interpretation through reading Rays teachings. This Forum is also such a place as God sees fit to provide to exercise such understanding, discernment comprehension and interpretation.
Rodger you say : I am but a measly hierling , …
I neither think or hope so!….
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hello Arcturus,
I think the best way to answer some of your concerns is to step aside and let the Word sort it out for us, you know full well that the moderators do not suffer blatant heresy kindly or for very long. We often will allow some questionable posts for a short time and either respond to them in the thread or privately to the poster. Once warnings are ignored or blown off then we can be sure a stronger action is necessary.
Here is a bit from Paul in regard to interaction with others, I don't think anyone can call him wishy washy or namby pamby when it comes to being vigilant in the Gospel of the Good News of Christ and not only speaking of it but in living it as well!
1Cor 9:19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Cor 9:20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Cor 9:21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Cor 9:22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1Cor 9:23And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
What is greater than knowledge,wisdom or prophecy (teaching included)?
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains and have not charity,26 I am nothing.
G26
ἀγάπη
agapē
ag-ah'-pay
From G25; love, that is, affection or benevolence; specifically (plural) a love feast: - (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.
I believe in this instance in this usage 'agape' means dealing benevolently with those we interact with, we should be generous to our brethren, Christ certainly is, His sacrifice is for all men, if one proves themselves to be a wolf we must part ways if one is in need of a gentle teacher we also must provide for them.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Peters addresses this as well;
1Pe 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
There is no disclaimer about being charitable (benevolent) only to those who agree with us 100% of the time, rather we should be peaceful (as much as possible) toward "all men."
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Joe I appreciate all you just wrote. I didn't mean to cause Arcturus , Rodger or anyone any ill feeling. Arcturus, I don't know as much as you. I don't even pretend to know half as much. I do have a hard time retaining information because of physical trauma that my body went through a long time ago. I kind of feel like I am back at school in trouble and talked down to because I couldn't retain info. good.All I am knowing of the path I am on right now is the path of learning more of the Bible and how God wants me to live my life. I am sure that I am much more immature spiritually tan many are but my only wish is to grow towards maturity. Thanks folks and I would ask forgiveness of Arcturus and Rodger for any hardship I have been.
Seminole
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Great post Joe wrote full of Wisdom Compassion and Love....Yet not compromising the truth one iota.
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Quoting and in AGREEMENT with Ray:
Must we all be theologians with a 150 IQ to understand these things? That leaves me out....
All Scripture is inspired, and all Scripture is true, but no one Scripture fully explains and interprets itself....Why is no Scripture its OWN interpretation, we might ask? To protect the integrity of the Scriptures, for one thing. ALL twelve of these spiritual principles are to be used together in explaining the Scriptures. If every Scripture or even any Scripture can be its "own interpretation," then we wouldn’t need the other eleven principles.http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm
TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD
"None of the wicked shall understand; but the Wise shall understand" (Daniel 12:10)
To the carnal mind,.... Scriptures are contradictions...............
Every single person I know that has stopped growing, spiritually, begins to go backwards, loosing what light they may have possessed because they are no longer faithful to the Word and commandments of Almighty God.
They all possess one or more "idols of the heart," that they will not give up or repent of. Sadly, in most cases, (even when backed into an indefensible corner with the Scriptures), it is extremely rare that such ones will acknowledge their sin and repent of their error. Over time such individuals usually become bitter, after which it is only a matter of time before Satan has them for lunch!
These twelve spiritual truths are not just helpful in understanding God’s word; they are essential. Without them, you cannot understand anything spiritual in the Scriptures. To the degree that you deny or leave off one or more of them is the degree that your spiritual understanding diminishes. Apply them all, always, and you will see spiritual revelation like you never even thought possible.
Seminole
You ask forgiveness for any hardship you have been to me.
Sure I forgive you...seventy seven times seven times. :D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Thank You
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Thanks guys. Keep the comments coming because I want to be totally convinced of this. I've seen alot of the scriptures that say we're dead...but I now I just want all the objections settled. But not only will it be clear for me, I'll be able to have a answer to the fundies.
Hey Oblivion,
After you got "smacked around" a bit :D, I lost track of where this thread really went. I am not sure whether this thread got you to where you wanted to be. I can say that a lot of study on your part can only help. It took me more that one reading [sometimes several] of Ray's articles to get a better understanding of what he was saying. You have been given a some helpful paths to follow and I hope you take advantage of the help you have been given. I also hope that you do not feel reluctant to ask more questions.
Joe and Diana,
Thank you so much for your posts. Both of you are so well spoken and I am certainly of like mind with both of you on this.
Arcturus,
I hear you loud and clear. I am no stranger to tough love on both issuing and receiving ends. What it gets down to with me is where it is appropriate. I hear so much that we need to be like Jesus as a reason for being rude and sarcastic. It is true that we need to try to be as much like Jesus as we can possibly be as God will allow. Even so, I am scratching my brain trying to come up with examples of where Jesus treated his apostles the same way he treated the scribes and pharisees. Perhaps some scriptural quotes along those lines will help in the discernment of this.
Until we know a person is not truly seeking truth or unless they go against the rules, why are we not to treat them as Jesus did his apostles. What good does it do to beat up Christ's lambs except to bolster our own egos. Edifying responses and guidance really make more sense to me. If we question a person's motives then, as Craig said, the moderators can deal with it. You can always take a firm hand without being lovey dovey or rude.
Jackie Lee
Thanks for those cites on the tongue. It sort of gave me an alternate way of thinking about "speaking in tongues" ;D
be blessed
feat
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Hello Feat
To answer your request for scriptures.
Mark 8:33 but turning around, His back to Peter, and SEEING HIS DISCIPLES, HE REBUKED PETER, saying, Get behind me, Satan! For you do not have a mind intent on promoting what God wills, but what pleases men, you are not on God's side, but that of men.
Here is a teaching from Ray available on his transcripts titled Re: Transcript of Ray's talk on Repentance
The disciples who were following Christ, that had a beam in their eye, a 2x4, these are the few. The ones that had the speck in their eye, these are the many. But how can that be? That doesn't make sense. It makes sense if you understand that this parable is part of the first two verses.
Why is He berating them here a little bit? I mean He's not just casually talking, He says “you hypocrites (He‘s calling His own disciples hypocrites), first cast the beam out of your own eye and you shall be able to see clearly to cast the mote out of your brothers eye.” http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html
Here are some more scriptures :
John 21 : 22 Jesus said to him, (Peter) if I want him (John, the disciple whom Jesus loved,)to stay, survive, live until I come, what is that to you: What concern is it of yours? YOU follow Me!
John 16:29 His disciples said, Ah, now You are speaking plainly to us and not in parables, veiled language and figures of speech! 31 Jesus answered them, Do you now believe? Do you believe at last?
Jesus asked the question. Do we think that Jesus did not know that they did not understand and nor could they until He sent to them His Spirit to open their minds and convert them at Pentecost?
I believe the holiest preserve of Babylonian teachings is the lie that Jesus was soft and compromising and we should wear masks of pretense doubleminded hypocrisy and twofaced deception in order to be like Him. Babylon is a master at this deception that disarms criticism against her and teaches it to her audiences to blind them from the Heroic uncompromising Son of God. Babylone does not worship or know Jesus for who He is and teaches a defenseless failure of a Christ who can not and will not succeed in saving EVERYONE!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hey Arcturus,
Thanks for the excellent cites. Jesus certainly didn't pull any punches when he felt they were wrong. While your scripture quotes are spot on to how Jesus treated his apostles, it does not seem to depict sarcasm. Calling them hypocrites is certainly straight forward rebuking and chastisement.
I am in agreement with you that there should be no soft peddling for wrong doing and wrong mindedness. I think tough love is important. My basic concern is the appropriateness of when it is used. What I don't understand is why sarcasm and rudeness is deemed necessary when dealing with those intent on learning. [I agree on the exception to the rule idea and sometimes it is necessary]. In most cases though, where people are intent on learning the truth, it is my opinion that rudeness and sarcasm are completely out of order. [Of course if meant to be a joke and displayed as a joke to lighten things up is a totally different matter. I am talking about sarcasm designed to make the other person look small or otherwise being derogatory.]
Thanks again for these examples and your other posts here. They were a clear reminder to me that not only does tough love have a place but it is important to put into action where necessary.
be blessed
feat
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Hello Feat
You are welcome.
If by some small possibility, (and if I am wrong please forgive me, I apologise) you are calling me "rude inappropriate, tough love" but with some merit or "place" here in the Forum then I would hope for an apology. If not, then who ever you are referring to as rude, inappropriate and tough....I do not know who you are talking about or who you are referring to. I do not know anyone like that here in the Forum.
I also do not have any associations with any people like that either.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hello Feat
You are welcome.
If by some small possibility, (and if I am wrong please forgive me, I apologise) you are calling me "rude inappropriate, tough love" but with some merit or "place" here in the Forum then I would hope for an apology. If not, then who ever you are referring to as rude, inappropriate and tough....I do not know who you are talking about or who you are referring to. I do not know anyone like that here in the Forum.
I also do not have any associations with any people like that either.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Hey Arcturus,
Your apology is unwarranted but accepted nonetheless. I wasn't, of course, referring to you in any way. Please do not take what I considered a discussion in general as though I was applying it to you. I was trying articulate my perspective on how to "be like Jesus" . It hadn't occurred to my that you would take any of it personally. I do find it interesting that you would have expected an apology though. My idea of tough love does not necessarily include rudeness or sarcasm. I believe the last examples you gave us were of Jesus using what I consider tough love. He didn't pull any punches. He told them exactly what He thought without using sarcasm.
Your opinion of what is rude and inappropriate seems to be different from mine. That's expected, not surprising and what "makes the world go around." Here is what is funny about the whole situation to me. Isn't it rude to call someone rude? I have been known to be very rude and sarcastic at times but I try to be appropriately so. [I don't always meet my goals even though I do try.:D]
I hope that answers your concern. Please PM me to discuss further because I am starting to feel a little guilty about hijacking this thread.
be blessed
feat
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Hello Harryfeat
Apology withdrawn as you make it plain that it was not necessary. THANKS! ;D
As to your other comments about what you think my opinion is of what is rude or inappropriate, suffice to say it would be inappropriate to discuss this here in the Forum! ;D
So back to work on the real reason I am here.
To learn. To grow in the image and likeness of Christ. Now that's scriptural! :D ;D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)