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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: insanezenmistress on August 23, 2007, 12:01:15 PM
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does mister Ray speak about this? It is somthing i have to deal with ALL THE TIME. ;)
I think we need to be carefull. While it is liberating and wonderfull to realise we are called out, and it is devestating to see "the many" out there still, i personally have to listen to God scold me about getting stuck in that place.........which morphs into spiritaul pride.
When i start listening to preachers, so that i might ferret out their falsness instead of listening to the Spirit use the words. Or when i try to "listen FOR" someone...........meaning i hear the teaching and think about it in terms of if only so and so could apply it the way the SPirit reveals it to me.
Or get stuck in one interpretation and concider all the others presented as obviously false, and cant see that the word presented may be being clarified and interpreted to another FOR THEM by god useing the words as spoken.
the Bible tells us to beware lest we fall and pride goes before destruction, i wonder if anyone else........after taking in a bunch of new truth and reveling in it, have immediately fallen once they started to try to interpret it for someone else, wether mentally or physically.
what that means if i havent typed clearly is.....
When we learn a truth we try to possess that truth but it is not ours to possess or ours to make others conform to. And when we try we run the risk of loseing what we have.
If this is a suitable topic, and not my own teaching or not according to ray's, let me know.......i would sure like some encoragement and study to be more aware of being taken down by smuggness and pride. Ps. to those who have been very very nice to me.......said nice things, thank you..........but i was almost trapped in my said pride, Jesus smacked me around a bit then i asked him if i could post about pride and see what we ( really I) can learn from eachother.
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Hello,
I have always believed "PRIDE" was what happened inside of us when "WE" were pumped up about something "WE" take credit for (right or wrong)...things such as "our new cars", "our kids", "our good looks" , "our IQ", etc, etc.....(things we have only because of God's goodness). I don't believe we have pride about "GOD'S TRUTH" when we know we didn't acquire it on our own, we were actually dragged to the truth...and until God opens our minds, it is alien to our carnal minds. I think what you are saying then is that the pride you may feel is not because we have truth, but it is because we are human and our carnal minds like to feel we have something (anything) someone else doesn't, which can make a person feel superior..(pumped up)
I don't know about anyone else in this forum but I don't feel "PRIDE" for what God is giving me, if anything I am brought low, humbled even to the point of frustration because, yes, maybe I can state my new beliefs to those around me (I do want to share the "joy" I feel) but I don't even have enough training in the scriptures (yet) to give what is in my heart...!!! There are others who do have that training and they can "teach" but I am not so easily swayed that if they are being called, chosen, and faithful, that pride is what they are experiencing. Is there such a thing as good "pride" ???? I don't think so.
I appreciate your post..it has made me think deeply, I hope my thoughts have not come across as harsh and I stand to be corrected if needed....!!
Peace
Sue Ann
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i can cirtenly see your side of the thing. And maybe my pride issue has to do with oh goody goody the lord gave this or that to me. but i think my pride issue also has to do with wanting to ............erm how to say it.......(perhaps pride is not even the issue)..........say.......i baked a great cake that someone gave me the recipe for, and i want to share that cake, maybe alittle to be told how well i baked that cake ( regular pride), but i AM humble and acknoledge that the cake was not my idea, but i am proud of the cake proud of the fine receipe and start to thinking
other cakes are not as good as the one i recieved.....then i start compareing everyones cake to the recipie given to me.
What i over look in that kind of pride is that the recipe giver has also give them their recipies and i am missing out on alot of cake goodness because their recipeis did not have exactly 1.5 cups of sugar like mine did.
so yes it is pride but no it isnt really lack of humility.
(meaning i do realise its not me it is HIS wonderfull truth but i want everyone to have a slice of my cake too) maybe it is bosting and that is another kind of pride...........argh .........
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Yes, that is a word that fits...BOASTING!!! I don't think you are feeling pride when you talk about wanting to share your new found knowledge and comparing a cake to the one and only "Truth" is not really an equal comparison. Yeah, I would say I have had pride when I compare my "Death by Chocolate Cake" to other inferior cakes..(kidding of course)!!
Sue Ann
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ok........except. i am not talking about my truth (god/bible) compared to the world. i am talking about amoung christians. and esp with those christians who are in the "regular church". (not all curches are "word of faith movement" or not seeking god....although many and most are teaching man's doctrines not all the sermons are without cakeyness)
I am talking about my pastor who does love Jesus and teaches to "make him lord of our lives".........althought he may be lost or confused in what he learned in Seminary he still seeks the Lord and shepards a flock....
not all his words are wrong, not all his interpretations of scripture are wrong......they may be alot weaker than they ought to be, BECAUSE of the limiting errors but people who seek truth can find some of it there.
my post about my pride has to do with how i respond to him and other christians. What if i am sitting amunst them thinking "oh i know better than you" even if i am saying "oh lord thank you for giveing me more of your word" its not about not being gratefull for god's truth or his revelation......it is about the attitude i weild His sword with.
my cake is an understanding of scripture thanks to god and his agents.
but this does not mean my pastor has no cake or that his cake is not from god to him where he is at in his understanding.
and my pride would be wrong then, i'd have prejudged my pastor.
(well then i am alittle different i feel i was to be in my church, yet not in babylon worship)
(sorry for all the allagory and metaphor and stuff , its just how i work out what i am trying to say or ask....i wish this was a runing chat room, then my weirdness would not be left behind to be seen of untold hundreds....be a while before i get this forum thing straight......i have never been an active member of a good forum .......shhhhhhhhhh shhhhhhhhhhh its not a chat room...........bbl)
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Hi again,
Not once has it crossed my mind that you were speaking weird...!!! Please know I have enjoyed your
post and I believe there is a reason we are not in a actual room, person to person (at least for now).
The bottom line of this conversation is that God gives us what we must say when he wants it said...!! If you are communicating with your pastor about the things God has revealed to you, it is because God chooses for you to do so and the words you speak are his words..his spirit!! If your pastor is responsive, then God is doing the work through you and yes that should bring great joy, no pride involved.
I don't trust myself to say much, maybe there is that feeling of not wanting to be wrong, or offend anyone, but then I remind myself God is working with all of us and bringing us all to a likeness of mind and spirit and how can we know each other if we THINK we are so different or "weird" as you wrote. We are
clay in the master's hand.
Keep your post coming...
Peace to you
Sue Ann
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Dear 'zen
Yes, yes and yes. It is pride and for me it will be the hardest sin to break.
You described three aspects of pride - listening to the falseness of the preacher, wanting specific other's to hear and see this or that monster revelation, and my way is THE truth everyone else is ..., of which I am guilty.
I believe we do not rise above our confession and PRIDE will be hard to confess and submit to his way. Pride for me is my innermost self , when I submit fully to the Father and Son it will melt away.
Askseeknock
Charles O
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Ceo yes it does and AMEN for that.
it is hard for me to keep discribing this pride thing because as i get aware of it i start praying oh god take that away......and he does and i cant get my quesitons out LMAO......
I found a verse...... 1 Cor 4:6, 20 and 7:7 (although to marriage the words also apply to concidering yourself and others).....
i am thinking of the verses where paul talks about the hand cant say , because i am not an eye i am no good....
As for my pastor i thik he wuld be more able to receive any of the revelations i have ( brought to light by the teachings here) by seeing me growing. As i grow i get bold, i jsut want to keep the pride thing confesssed up .... afraid to handle the word wrongly and sin against god.
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Zen
Does your pastor go to you, does he initiate the discussion ? I thought not. He will grow tired of you if you continue to hold to scriptural truth and spend his time on what for him is more fertile ground. Read GODSOWN's post on his preacherman 'showdown'. It is /was great reading and ended with a very predictable result.
Charles O
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Hi insanezenmistress :)
Pride has many sides, atleast it seems to have for me. Many associate pride with feeling good about themeselves for having helped another. I take pride in the way God has opened my heart to him and revealed himself to me. Looking back over my life, I feel good about where I am now in my spiritual walk.
Yet, this be as it may, I am not prideful over another, neither do I feel sad they do not have the eyes or the ears for the truth that I have. (rather that were given me) This was perhaps the hardest yet most enlightening truth I have been given, and that is realizing that I am no better than any other person on this planet. Sure, I have come far and accomplished much, yet not I, but Christ who lives in me, lest I have cause to boast.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Even though some still stumble in the dark, I can hold out my hand, but it is not up to me to make them take it.
I have also learned to love myself, not over God, but because of of God. For how foolish would I be to not love the one whom Christ loved before I was even born, enough to even die for me. One must let go of all and trust God completely to see how small and insigificant the "I" in who I am really is; yet I am not insignificant, though not because of me, but because of Christ who lives within me.
I hope this makes some sense,
All are where they need to be according to God's will.
Love to you in Christ, the Lamb.
Darren
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Zen,
My 2 cents worth, yes I have to catch myself at times when I am listening to radio or tv preacher so that I do not look down on them in their God given ignorance. I must "take heed lest I fall" and become a "castaway" by boasting or coasting in my treasure that God has revealed to me.
CIY
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1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world - the lust of the flesh, craving for sensual gratification, and the lust of the eyes, greedy longings of the mind, and the pride of life, assurance in one's own resources or in the stability of earthy things - these do not come from the Father but are from the world itself.
We are subject to the vanity of such futile, empty and hollow appearances until we are by Grace, God's Divine influence working on our hearts, (Ray Smith) we change and are conformed into the image of the Son of God, Jesus Christ.
Jesus took up His cross and carried it not as some might believe they are doing to strive to get their "greedy longings of their minds!"
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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i get it Darren, thank you.
Sue thank you for your encoragement.
and Ceo where is this preacherman showdown.....
I have to remember i am not learning the truth to specifically show it to so and so..........but to live it. On the other hand i feel to hold myself back....as if i climb this mountian and how can i relate to "them", but you pointed it out.all of you did.........it is not Myself that does the relating
it is not myself that reveals anything, even if i can be a vehicle it is not for me to skeem how i might relate. I am not thinking on confronting my pastor, but should he ask....(evil grins).. and he does ask just does not take time to listen.
and as to "more furtile ground" that shivers me.......to think that his "mission" may not be to learn and grow together with his flock, yet that is the "church" he is in. The pastor doles out the preachings and the audience er the congregation receives what he has recieved form the Lord. maybe i need a gripe about my pastor board....lol....i love him and crave that God will enlighten his eye but instead of confront i do alot of praying. But at this time i have no call to leave going to church, but in stead a desire to be an example.....(and ew thats where the pride can creep in...so this is for my discipline)
Justine
PS.............Ciy hummmmmm coasting
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My 2 cents worth, yes I have to catch myself at times when I am listening to radio or tv preacher so that I do not look down on them in their God given ignorance. I must "take heed lest I fall" and become a "castaway" by boasting or coasting in my treasure that God has revealed to me.
CIY
A big amen to this post CIY and although I'm very new in these truths about UR, I have sensed a couple time that I need to stay humble and thankful.
As far as those in the mainstream churches, it is easy to poke fun at them but really, I have to be thankful for them. I think Ray said something like "God calls us into the church to learn the basics and then calls us out" -- so these people all served a purpose in my life, giving me some "basics" and I need to remember that and to keep that attitude of thankfulness.
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Ah, spiritual pride. As Dawn said evryone in the earth has an important role in God's plan, chosen or not. It's just that to reign with Christ is literally the highest calling in the universe!! And to be blessed even with the knowledge to aspire to be chosen is a treasure beyond all treasures. Explaining that to someone that doesn't believe the truths of God makes you seem prideful anyway, but that's not so. What is wanting to be spiritual just so people know your spiritual.If you have not seen my intro post I posted a few days ago, I was a worship leader and an aspiring pastor in my church days, and that was an unforgettable experiance. Firsthand I saw that self promotion was the key in most ministries. They loved God, so did I. Didn't change the fact that When it came down to it it was all about them! But I consider my self now as well. We clearly see in the word that pride, let alone false spiritual pride, was disgusting in God's sight. But when are blessed hope is sonship alone, you better believe are false spriituality will be dealt with, and we'll thank him for it. I still do and will continue to. We could all use more of Christ's humility, in all aspects of our lives.
God Bless
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::) Brandon.
I am glad for you.....and pray for your witness amoung people.
and pray that our Father continues his work amoung we here and us out there......thikning IF god can do it for me.......if he can open a few sets of eyes then may he gain much momentum, let us help each other challenge the crap in our carnal minds and ...........i am so excited to be alive now..........
seeing the people here and meeting a few good souls out there, and knowing how many are at least hearing the teachings by Ray (and others).....i can invision multiplications as the flames of the Lord spark up.
i am comforted by the fact that his word never returns void. and i am doubly excited to see how he is touching you....albe it jealouse because it took him over 13 years to get me started..LMAO.........
anyway welcom here and thanx for your advise.
IZM (justine)
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Justine,
Thank you so much for this thread. It caused me to open my eyes to my own sinful, pride-filled, and boastful attitude concerning the truths God has recently led me to.
Yesterday I attended the "Homegoing" service of a dear friend's father. It was my first time in church since coming to BT. It didn't even dawn on me that this was my first trip back to Babylon until about halfway through the service. As the service progressed, I sat there, arms folded, forgetting all about the fact that I was there to support my friend in her time of grief, and instead I carefully listened to every word the Pastor spoke, searching for incorrect translations, contradictions, etc. It makes me cringe now just to think about it - not of what he said, but of my own haughty attitude. :(
So thank you, for showing me the error of my ways and thinking.
Love and peace,
Carol
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Dawn, Justine, Carol
This is a good thread to bring us to remembrance. I think the following verse kind of sums up why we should look on Bablyon with humility and humbleness.
Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
In all situations, it is always, "But by the grace of God there goes I."
CIY
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Zen
The post by GODsown1 would qualify as an all-time classic in my mind. It is on page two of this General Discussions forum and as I type is the seventh posting from the top.
Thank you for sharing with us through these posts.
Askseeknock
Charles O
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Hi Justine,
You said: And maybe my pride issue has to do with oh goody goody the lord gave this or that to me... then later... so yes it is pride but no it isnt really lack of humility.
I just looked up 'pride' in a dictionary and there are several definitions. The first one given has three subparts. It's the third one (c) that is applicable to your musings:
1 : the quality or state of being proud: as (a) : inordinate self-esteem : CONCEIT (b) : a reasonable or justifiable self-respect (c) : delight or elation arising from some act, possession, or relationship.
To me, this aspect of pride simply describes the acknowledgement or realization of the worth or value of something. I think you are experiencing the realization of being given WONDERFUL spiritual gifts that only God can give and you, that are not of this world, and you want to share them! So I wouldn't sweat the small stuff on this issue! And sure it's good to keep self-indulgent pridefulness in check as it can turn into a big sin fast. Ask me about it, how well I know! :o
I think it is okay to be the "proud owner" (in this regard) of a relationship with Christ Jesus! :D Just tryin' to think outta da bag on this one.
With hope and joy for His kingdom!
Janice
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I believe the spiritual lesson is to learn not to compare oneself with anyone else but to find our value in the price Christ paid for us and not in comparisons. This is not easy because our carnal mind is full of competition, envy, lust and comparisons. That is why the fashion industry and Hollywood thrives I believe!
2 Cor 10:12 Not that we have the audacity to venture to class or even compare ourselves with some who exalt and furnish testimonials for themselves! However, when they measure themselves with themselves and compare themselves with one another, they are without understanding and behave unwisely.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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IZM:
Pride is so huge. And sometimes we simply can't help being proud of something, or prideful in a wrong way. It happens. But if you realize it, then you can do something about it.
It's the pride you don't realize as pride that hits you hard. God has a way of making the proud humble....really, can we MAKE ourselves humble? I guess we can humble ourselves....but God will deal with pride, of that I have first hand knowledge! And I thought I was a humble guy at one point! And I had people tell me that. And maybe in those areas I was....but in others I wasn't. And now, through a "trial", I have learned the real meaning of humility, and of compassion and understanding. As painful as it is, I wouldn't trade it. I'm glad I changed, and was brought low. I needed it! So yes, my pride went before my fall, and I fell as hard as a person can.
Not to freak you out, but that is my experience with pride. I'm "proud" of my kids (or like happy) but then the pride of comparison etc sneaks in...with us vs others, our knowledge of the truth, our morality vs others etc....and it is not good.
Anyway...you have good questions...take "pride" in that! :D Just kidding....James
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you didnt freak me out........
Nothing much freaks ME out, My other sin is Obsession,,,,,,,ew god dislikes that, at least for me anyhow.
anyway.
I enjoyed your post, you didnt have a quesiton about hwo you know ye the lord .......Pride is huge, yet even His Prince had to kneel his own will for his Master's..........He had also to Submit to us..........
sad how much our pride takes form that.
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I believe Arcturus has hit the nail on the head with the observations made. We each one are so precious to God. We have different lives, different troubles and good times but are God's treasured ones. That is so mind-boggling that it is hard for me to fit it in my heart! My grandfather had a peach orchard. One of my favorite things to do was walk in the orchard with him and Daddy(Satch). They let me come along because I was quiet. My grandfather would pick a peach from a tree as we walked. It was warmed by the sun and it felt so soft. Grandfather would hold the peach in his hands while placing my hands on the peach. He would say," close your eyes and think about this wonderful fruit and why we are able to hold it in our hands. It is because God has given us this day and loves us so much that He is giving this special peach to us to eat and enjoy." He would go on to tell me that no matter how small it may seem to others it is blessing from God who loves us as we are. I treasure those lessons learned. Grandfather told me to always remember and I do.
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Thankyou for sharing that sun ripened perfect peach of a lesson for all of us here in the Forum Jacieleigh. :)
BTW my middle name is Leigh.... ;)
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi JacieLeigh,
Thank you for sharing that heart warming story about your grandfather's peach orchard. It reminded me of my childhood. :)
Peace and Love
Iris
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I believe some of the greatest lessons in life come from those small lessons learned from our elders. I know now that my Daddy's quiet , gentlemanly ways came from Grandfather because he was the same. Neither went to college or had anything fancy to show their acoomplishments but they had accomplished great things anyway. I believe that it is now up to us to pass those same life lessons on to those who will come after us. This date is the date that Grandfather left this earth. So today, I will think of him , the laughter, the music and the impact he still has on my life.
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I can completely agree with your post.Before I ended up here I belonged to a movement called the Body Of Christ. They believed that they were the called out and chosen church of God they spoke the same words that many on this site speak. They quote the come out of her my people verse and claim that all of Christendom is Babylon.There was such pride to think thatGod has favored you or that you must be special because you can see what others can not.I struggle everyday with how to feel about possesing truth,and I still find it hard to accept that all the church world all the called and not the chosen.So good topic.
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Hello sonofone
Your post caused me to to consider the following scriptures:
Luke 3:6 And all mankind shall see, behold and understand and at last acknowledge the salvation of God, the deliverance from death decreed by God.
Some will be first and some will be last. :)
Matt 20 : But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. (Will that happen between the falsely assuming to be the few chosen and many called where the falsely assuming to be the few chosen resent that the many called and lost are saved too?)
11. And when they had received it, they murmured against the good man pf the house, 12. Saying, these LAST have wrought but one hour, and you have made them equal to us which have borne the burden and heat of the day. (Sounds like they ignorantly assumed that it was far worse to suffer being chosen and killed for Christ rather than lost and found by HIM and then cleaned up in the LOF) 13 but he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do you no wrong, did not you agree with me for a penny? 14 Take what belongs to you and go, I choose to give to this LAST even as to you. 15. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with my own? Is your eye evil, because I am good?
This for me deals with spiritual pride, the topic of this Thread. We should be proud of nothing! We should not be like the son who staying at home is grieved that his wayward brother gets the party and big celebration because he returned home. We too were once dead but now we live because Christ lives in us.
So there really should be no pride in the error of assuming that we are either called or chosen. I believe it is justified that we should desire to be chosen and made worthy to stand before the Son of man when He comes. Jesus Christ will bring the reward and prize when He returns. What if it is just a penny?
Will we be disappointed and told by Jesus to "go our way!" and that He has done us no wrong and that our pride came as a result and consequence of our ignorant, foolish and arrogant pride.....all because of a false assumption that we can merit or deserve anything!
It is a humbling thought to think and ponder on the fact that all will be saved from FIRST TO LAST! :) This is not a savory or palatable doctrine for those who teach heresy and lies yet it is the truth that saves us from puffed up egos and assumptions that the first will be first and the last will be last. God does not teach that!
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)