bible-truths.com/forums
=> Off Topic Discussions => Topic started by: hillsbororiver on February 04, 2008, 06:05:42 PM
-
Hi Everyone,
As some of you know I am very interested in ancient history and science and I know that there are others here who find these things fascinating as well.
Tonight at 10PM (EST) there is a program on the History Channel about the size and strength of ancient navies that we probably did not learn about in school
Here is the lead in from the website;
What you thought was modern may in fact be ancient...
Ancient Discoveries.
Robots and helicopters, trains and cars, cranes and machines for building the mammoth structures that mark our largest cities. All testaments to our modern intelligence and ingenuity, right? Maybe not. Perhaps all these inventions, and many more, were conceived thousands of years ago in places like ancient Egypt, Greece, and the Far East. Go back millennia to see how our ancestors’ grandest ideas mirror those of modern society in the series ANCIENT DISCOVERIES.
Ancient Super Navies
Using the latest scientific techniques to solve the greatest mysteries of the ancient world's naval technology, our team of modelmakers, underwater detectives and elite naval commandos are investigating legends that speak of lethal, high explosive grenades... covert underwater attack equipment... and highly toxic biological warfare. Their life-threatening experiments will forever transform our understanding of antiquity's greatest naval inventions.
Rating: TVPG
Running Time: 60 minutes
Genre:Mysteries of History
http://www.history.com/minisite.do?mini_id=52979
Enjoy!
-
Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Ecc 1:10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. ;D
Peace,
Joe
-
I will mark my calender! Fortunately for me, most of the programs here are recorded in the US and broadcast 1 week later for the military on the Armed Forces Network.
I especially love these topics mentioned. My dad used to read me bedtime stories from the encyclopedia, so I was the only kid in 2nd grade who knew strange topics like the speed of light, the accomplishments of Archimedes, black holes, etc... Other kids watched Sesame Street, I had to watch Cosmos!
Great Scriptures too!
:)
Matt
-
My dad used to read me bedtime stories from the encyclopedia, so I was the only kid in 2nd grade who knew strange topics like the speed of light, the accomplishments of Archimedes, black holes, etc... Other kids watched Sesame Street, I had to watch Cosmos!
Great Scriptures too!
:)
Matt
;D
Hi Matt,
We have a similar background in regard to the bedtime stories of our youth, I am a few (well,maybe more than a few) years older than you (53 currently) and as a 7-8-9 year old television was not quite what it is today (both good and bad there for sure). We had only 2 channels (CBS & NBC) until 1961 when ABC was added, a year later we got our first UHF channel, needless to say without computers, the Internet, cable TV, etc. books were more than paperweights and decorations on bookshelves for most everyone I knew but especially my Mom who always had a book or two going and the local librarians all knew her on a first name basis.
At that time (early 60's) A&P grocery as well as Loblaw's (another grocery chain) had hardcover children's encyclopedias where a new edition would be released every month, all that was needed was to buy a certain amount of groceries (maybe $20 worth) and you get a free book, these books were great and opened up the world of science, astronomy and history to me and I read and reread them all cover to cover at night in bed, sometimes under the covers with a flashlight if it were past "lights out" time.
You gave me a laugh as I remembered the looks from classmates when I would speak of Ptolemy, Aristotle, Galileo, Peter the Great, and a host of other things, it would surprise me when they did not know of this stuff, I thought everybody read those books!
I am looking forward to that program in a couple hours and I hope you enjoy it too.
His Peace to you,
Joe
-
A friend of mine linked me to an interesting website (not all the information there is valid, but there are some gems of truth there) called http://s8int.com that just has a lot of historical and scientific anomalies discovered through time that are grounds to re-consider what we know as "history." Many of them seem to be Biblically related. Again, take it with a grain of salt, but it reminds me very much of this history channel documentary.
-
Thanks for the link. Looks like plenty of info. I bookmarked it so I can take the time to peruse.
-
We (I mean society not us as individuals) have a tendency to believe that we are smarter and more proficient in things than our previous generations were, the advances in technologies I do not think give us a true picture of how adept we are in utilizing our own or how our children use basic brain power in problem solving and understanding the physical sciences, language, mathematics, etc.
The advent of calculators, word processors, computers, the Internet, etc. give us access to artificial intelligence that enhances our own capabilities, what would happen if the plug was pulled? If we were to find ourselves in a world where these appliances were no longer available?
For some reason I started thinking about these things today so I searched the internet and found a test I had read about years ago in regard to grammar school tests of 110 years ago, so I used the spellchecker on this computer to write a post to deliver to you folks who are scattered about the planet.
This increase of knowledge we read about in scripture (Daniel 12:4) I believe pertains more (although there is a physical shadow in earthly cumulative knowledge) to spiritual understanding as we approach the Day of the Lord rather than the fact that we are smarter or more knowledgeable than previous generations.
Yes, we can manufacture complex machines but can we be sure that this technology is not in fact inferior than what may have been before the flood or even directly after? One day we will know.
One thing I do know is that I could not pass the following grammar school test from 1895; ;)
8th Grade Final Exam: Salina, Kansas - 1895
This is the eighth-grade final exam* from 1895 from Salina, Kansas. It was taken
from the original document on file at the Smoky Valley Genealogical Society
and Library in Salina, Kansas and reprinted by the Salina Journal.
Grammar (Time, one hour)
1. Give nine rules for the use of Capital Letters.
2. Name the Parts of Speech and define those that have no modifications.
3. Define Verse, Stanza and Paragraph.
4. What are the Principal Parts of a verb? Give Principal Parts of do, lie, lay and run.
5. Define Case, Illustrate each Case.
6. What is Punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of Punctuation.
7-10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.
Arithmetic (Time, 1.25 hours)
1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold?
3. If a load of wheat weighs 3942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts. per bu, deducting 1050 lbs. for tare?
4. District No. 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals?
5. Find cost of 6720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton.
6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent.
7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $.20 per inch?
8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent.
9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance around which is 640 rods?
10.Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt.
U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes)
1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided.
2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus.
3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
4. Show the territorial growth of the United States.
5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas.
6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.
7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton, Bell, Lincoln, Penn, and Howe?
8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, and 1865?
Orthography (Time, one hour)
1. What is meant by the following: Alphabet, phonetic orthography, etymology, syllabication?
2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?
3. What are the following, and give examples of each: Trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals?
4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u'.
5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e'. Name two exceptions under each rule.
6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each.
7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: Bi, dis, mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, super.
8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: Card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last.
9. Use the following correctly in sentences, Cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane, vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.
10.Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.
Geography (Time, one hour)
1. What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas?
3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?
4. Describe the mountains of N.A.
5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia, Odessa, Denver, Manitoba, Hecla, Yukon, St. Helena, Juan Fermandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco.
6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S.
7. Name all the republics of Europe and give capital of each.
8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude?
9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.
10.Describe the movements of the earth. Give inclination of the earth.
The top of the test states > "EXAMINATION GRADUATION QUESTIONS OF SALINE COUNTY, KANSAS
April 13, 1895 J.W. Armstrong, County Superintendent.Examinations at Salina, New Cambria, Gypsum City, Assaria, Falun, Bavaria, and District No. 74 (in Glendale Twp.)"
According to the Smoky Valley Genealogy Society, Salina, Kansas "this test is the original eighth-grade final exam for 1895 from Salina, KS. An interesting note is the fact that the county students taking this test were allowed to take the test in the 7th grade, and if they did not pass the test at that time, they were allowed to re-take it again in the 8th grade."
Peace,
Joe
P.S. Where is the aspirin again?
-
Hi Joe--
See what people were able to "learn" when the radio, t.v., vcr, camcorder, computer, fax, cell phone, blackberry, pager, satellite dish, dvd player, x-box, and robotic vacuum cleaner were turned off? :D eheheh!
I used to have a copy of some excerpts of one of George Washington's diaries. I really had a good laugh at myself trying to read it! His grammar, spelling, syntax....VOCABULARY...WAY over my head! Actually, come to think of it....a lot of the posts here at BT are way over my head too, but that's another story! hehe :)
Do you get the emails from beforeus.com ? Cheers.
Joyce :)
-
Good one Joyce! I would definitely fail that exam, the questions are overloading my brain!
How interesting Joe. I'll have to read up on ancient discoveries.
Ursula
-
Take it from a teacher--as a society we "be gettin dummer and dummer".
I doubt if a college professor could pass that.
When I visited Gettysburg, these poor ole farmer boys, now soldiers, would write their mom's or girlfriend/wife....farmers, poor remember.....Their grammar, spelling, syntax, poetry, was beautiful. THEY WEREN'T LEARN..NED!!!! But they knew how to think and write.
AARRRGGGGHHHHH....don't get me going..... :D
I haven't been in school the last 5 out of 7 days for weather. (Just thought I 'd throw that out there :D)
-
US History: An account of the discovery of America by Columbus.
Hey look at all of those savages. Lets take the strong as slaves and kill the rest. Let's loot!!
Orthography: Elementary Sounds:
AAAahhhhh, EEeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, WWWaaaaaaaaaaaaa, I wanna go to the bathroom!!! Sit down and shut up you little. . . .!!!!
-
Do you get the emails from beforeus.com ? Cheers.
Hi Joyce,
Sorry I missed your post, the answer to your question above;
I didn't, but I do now!
Thank you for the "heads up!"
His Peace to you,
Joe
-
Some serious food for thought, eh?
:)
Joyce
-
Hey Joe, are you suggesting that the ancient Egyptians may have flown around in ancient helicopters or some other form(s) of aircraft?
I like history too :)
Cheers,
Jeremy
-
It looks like that Salina test may just be an urban myth...
For my own sanity's sake, I hope that is the case, cause I would spend all eternity on this thing and STILL not finish it!
http://www.snopes.com/language/document/1895exam.asp
-
Hi jerreye,
The article does doesn't say definitively that it is a hoax but that it does not prove education standards have declined (my own experience with interviewing young prospects confirms this though).
They do make a good point about the difference in being taught the specific subjects before looking at this test versus looking at it cold. We all have our areas of expertise and when we are familiar with a subject or a process we can look rather brilliant when in fact we are quite ordinary but very experienced. (I am living proof of this statement). ;)
When I discuss the building process rattling off specs and codes, load bearing joists, trusses, walls, structure envelope, etc. I can sound like a Physical Engineer (for a while) when in fact I have become so familiar with the process and the potential problems if certain criteria is not met that even I have developed a bit of expertise, just a bit.
As with just about anything outside the scriptures I take many man made conclusions and statements with a giant grain of salt, virtually both sides of any issue has me a little skeptical. ??? I am always trying to look beneath the surface for the true motivation of the proponants of anything and everything.
His Peace to you,
Joe
-
Hey Joe, are you suggesting that the ancient Egyptians may have flown around in ancient helicopters or some other form(s) of aircraft?
I like history too :)
Cheers,
Jeremy
Hello again jerreye,
No sir I would not be that presumptuous, but is it possible they could have had gliders or other crafts we are not aware of as yet. I am not even 100% sure they even built the pyramids or the Sphinx. Could these structures have been built by the antediluvian (people before The Flood) or the first generations after The Flood?
I enjoy speculating and meditating on the mysteries of past civilizations, they certainly left behind many strange and wonderful things to examine as well as histories of incredible brutality, which I do not particularly enjoy thinking too deeply about.
Peace,
Joe
-
Hey Joe, ok, I was just curious :)
I suppose there is a very slight possibility that they had gliders, that would indeed be an amazing discovery!
I did locate a website speaking about those Egyptian carvings that look like they "could" be ancient drawings of helicopters and other aircraft...I believe it gives a good case against the idea.
http://www.catchpenny.org/abydos.html
I know a lot of people think that men are getting "dumber". I personally do not buy into the idea. I believe that what may have been vitally important in ancient times is not as vitally important to US, NOW. Education, I believe has simply shifted to other areas, if you will. I mean, back in the 1800's for example, they wouldn't have access to calculators, which would mean their basic math skills would have to be very sharp in order to do even basic tasks. Today, all we have to do is punch in a few numbers on a computer to get the same results. Does this mean that we are now "dumber"? I wouldn't think so (I might fit into that group, however :) . We have simply shifted our thoughts to areas that are more important to our modern era, such as building super-computers and space-stations. That doesn't sound "dumb" to me :) After all, "knowledge shall be INCREASED...".
Cheers,
Jeremy
-
Hi jerreye,
You raise valid points to be sure, but (always a but) :D as I believe there certainly is truth to "knowledge shall be increased" both physically and spiritually I do believe that our individual knowledge may be more specialized and linear. Yes, our "experts" in most if not all fields (there is no way of knowing about people before The Flood) have access to more information than ever before and the speed of technological advances is incredible to contemplate.
I was alive (although not aware) of the first manned spaceflight, Sputnik in 1957. I was very aware of John Glenn's Mercury capsule's orbit as we were able to watch the launch on TV in my second grade class back in 1962, it was a huge event, the whole country seemed riveted by it, even though the flight was barely outside the earth's atmosphere. The space shuttle flights now are so common that they seem to draw a collective yawn from the public.
Growing up we had 2 then 3 channels for most of my childhood, one 4 party phone in the kitchen, no cable or computer or Internet or MP3's to entertain us so we were much more connected to our natural environment in regard to knowing our neighborhoods, the surrounding woods, parks and being creative enough to entertain ourselves. Some of us even had our own backyard vegetable gardens because growing stuff was "fun."
Going to the library was a treat, organizing pick up baseball, basketball, skating on frozen ponds, all this with little adult supervision, we had to work through difficult situations, arguments, setting up rules and parameters as best we could. Sometimes fights ensued, we learned to not only defend ourselves but also to size up potential dangers and becoming savvy enough to avoid them, well most of the time anyway.
The problem is we have become more and more dependent on the technology, what do we do if and when the plug is pulled, when the batteries run out on our calculators? No one had cell phones in the early 90's (I should say very few, I actually had a company issued one with a huge battery and antennae, when taking it from my car into the office it was like lugging a car battery around) but now most people feel lost without this appliance attached somewhere to their body.
You know I do not look forward to the anarchy that would ensue a few days after the loss of electricity, while no one would care about where their cell phone was after a couple days they certainly would be very aware of where their gun might be or where they might be able to procure one.
Wow, I am really going all over the place here, sorry about that! :P
Right now I am able to access a computer that is at least 50 times faster and more powerful than the one that guided the first moon landing, I can carry it in a briefcase rather than that huge behemoth that was used back then, if I want to find out about the life of some historical figure his story is a few clicks away, no painstaking searches in libraries, actually having to read through books to find the information, a few keywords is all that is needed.
We take a few items out of the freezer pop them in the microwave press a few buttons and voila! supper is ready. Want entertainment click on one of the hundreds of channels available on cable TV or pop in a DVD, no need to be bothered by opening up and reading a book.
I am not disparaging this, I really love gadgets and appreciate all the things they do in making us all a bit more comfortable, perhaps too much so.
Our daughter is very close to her Ph.D. (hopefully this summer) and is an accomplished (National Cable Award Special Ed. Teacher of the Year for 2006) special education teacher, she has been very proficient earned state and national recognition for teaching gifted and special needs kids, she says the interest in reading even with the gifted is very limited for the most part and it reflects in their writing abilities as well, not only spelling and grammar but really getting points across through the written word.
She is also very tech savvy but ask her the last time she read a book herself, ask her a few history or science questions and you will get a sheepish look and a response something like "you know I really need to something about that."
The following are things she has related to me when we discuss education today;
History class? Virtually non existent, except of course for the politically correct swill that is mind numbing and either ignores important historical events or spins them into not much more than fairy tales.
Math, try taking away their calculators.
English? Check reading above.
Self esteem used to be earned, it is now a "right" it seems every dumb thing that is thought or said has to be respected, you have to take into consideration ethnicity, race, background, immigration status, everything but learning and playing by a standard set of rules, the rules change depending on how high up you are in the all important victim status category.
She feels teacher's hands are being tied tighter and tighter behind their backs in regard to actually pushing the class to their full potential, there is that political correctness and the ever present threat of lawsuits to put front and center.
No things were not perfect back in the old days, I am sure though that as a society and as individuals we are more attached to our appliances even to the point of dependence, they think for us, they work for us, they keep us cool in the summer and warm in the winter, I am thankful for that but we are less independant now and critical thinking with raw brain power has suffered as well.
This is even more profound for many minorities who have really been given the short stick in regard to lower expectations by those who feign compassion for them.
From Thomas Sowell's;
THE EDUCATION OF MINORITY CHILDREN
Will Rogers once said that it was not ignorance that was so bad but, as he put it, "all the things we know that ain't so." Nowhere is that more true than in American education today, where fashions prevail and evidence is seldom asked or given. And nowhere does this do more harm than in the education of minority children.
The quest for esoteric methods of trying to educate these children proceeds as if such children had never been successfully educated before, when in fact there are concrete examples, both from history and from our own times, of schools that have been sucessful in educating children from low-income families and from minority families. Yet the educational dogma of the day is that you simply cannot expect children who are not middle-class to do well on standardized tests, for all sorts of sociological and psychological reasons.
Those who think this way are undeterred by the fact that there are schools where low-income and minority students do in fact score well on standardized tests. These students are like the bumblebees who supposedly should not be able to fly, according to the theories of aerodynamics, but who fly anyway, in disregard of those theories.
While there are examples of schools where this happens in our own time-- both public and private, secular and religious-- we can also go back nearly a hundred years and find the same phenomenon. Back in 1899, in Washington, D. C., there were four academic public high schools-- one black and three white.1 In standardized tests given that year, students in the black high school averaged higher test scores than students in two of the three white high schools.2
This was not a fluke. It so happens that I have followed 85 years of the history of this black high school-- from 1870 to 1955 --and found it repeatedly equalling or exceeding national norms on standardized tests.3 In the 1890s, it was called The M Street School and after 1916 it was renamed Dunbar High School but its academic performances on standardized tests remained good on into the mid-1950s.
Read the entire article here; http://www.tsowell.com/speducat.html
For some real eye opening information on education, economics, etc. visit his website @ http://www.tsowell.com/
Peace,
Joe
-
Joe--
You may recall how strongly I feel about education in the United States....so much so that I was determined to change the system (single handed if need be) back in the mid 80's-- but at one point I realized that change would probably never come-- that the UN had more to say about curriculum in our schools than the teachers that taught in them-- and so realizing that even if change COULD come at all, it would take many years....and then I knew that my own children would be grown by then and it would be too late for them...so I homeschooled them. Still, I feel great compassion for the parents that have their little ones today....not knowing how to swim against the tide and make a difference and either not in a position to homeschool or not sure that it's God's will for their lives....
You see, I see everyone here is passionate about SOMETHING....home, family, education, medicine, law, whatever......everyone is passionate for the RIGHT thing to be done......it's EVERYWHERE.....and we go on with our lives the best that we can, making whatever changes in the status quot that we can....concentrating mostly on our families immediate needs and our Bible studies....but still, being passionate about SOMETHING! My question to you today is this:
do you believe that our sense of RIGHT and WRONG on various aspects of life; education, medicine, law, whatever....will be utilized in the age to come? Do you believe that there will even be a need for these things in the age to come? And if so, can you explain your answer?
I'm starting to sound like a drill Sargent....good grief, charlie brown! Please don't take it that way, Joe...its just that I am so stirred up by these things...and I can see many others here in the same boat! Just trying to make sense of WHY this is so! :)
Joyce
-
Hi Joyce,
I believe I can, but unfortunately it may turn out to be another lengthy post, I should have something here by late afternoon.
His Peace to you Sister,
Joe
-
In Acts 17 we read of Paul engaging Jews and Greek philosophers in Athens, the Lord had prepared Paul for His service to Him in a unique fashion not only schooled as a Roman citizen but as a Pharisee's Pharisee.
Act 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
So who is this Gamaliel?
Act 5:34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;
This background was invaluable to Paul as he engaged the Jewish, the Stoic and the Epicureans in Athens. We are all very familiar with the Pharisees but here is a little bio on the others.
From; The Ancient Greeks, Dr. C. George Boeree
Stoicism
"Only the educated are free." -- Epictetus
The founder of stoicism is Zeno of Citium (333-262) in Cyprus. Zeno may have been Phoenician or part Phoenician. He was a student of the cynics, but was also influenced by Socrates. His philosophy was similar to that of Antisthenes, but tempered by reason. Basically, he believed in being virtuous, and that virtue was a matter of submitting to God’s will. As usual for Greeks who postulated a single god, Zeno did not strongly differentiate God from nature. So another way of putting it is to live according to nature (“Zen kata physin.”).
The school got its name from the Painted Porch (stoa poikile) in Athens where Zeno studied. Walking up and down the open hallways, he lectured his students on the value of apatheia, the absence of passion, something not too different from the Buddhist idea of non-attachment. By passion Zeno meant uncontrolled emotion or physical desire. Only by taking this attitude, he felt, could we develop wisdom and the ability to apply it.
“Let no one break your will!” he said. Man conquers the world by conquering himself. Start by developing an indifference to pain and pleasure, through meditation. Wisdom occurs when reason controls passions; Evil occurs when passions control us.
Another aspect of Stoicism is its belief in the development of a universal state, in which all men were brothers. Stoics believed in certain “natural rights,” a concept which we wouldn’t see again until the 18th century. They also believed in the right to commit suicide -- an important part of Roman cultural tradition.
The best presentation of stoicism is by the Greek slave Epictetus (50-138 ad), who wrote during the Roman era. There is also a little book, Meditations, by the Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius (121-180 ad).
Epicureanism
“The gods are not to be feared; death cannot be felt; the good can be won; all that we dread can be conquered.” -- Epicurus
Epicurus (341-270) was born on the island of Samos in Ionia. At 19, went to Athens to study at the Academy. It seemed, though, that he liked the philosophy of Democritus better. The school he founded was particularly egalitarian, accepting women and slaves. Epicurus, it is said, wrote 300 books. Sadly, only fragments survive.
Epicurus had little patience with religion, which he considered a form of ignorance. He was particularly eager to help people loose their fear of the gods. He did, however, also say that the gods existed, although they lived far away in space somewhere and had little or nothing to do with people on earth. Atheism, you see, was still illegal in Athens!
One of the most persistent issues concerning belief in God is the problem of evil. Epicurus's argument still holds up:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Epicurus felt that it was useless to argue over metaphysics, that there was no such thing as a soul that lived after death, that we arrived at our present condition by means of evolution, and that we had the quality of free will.
We can see an almost “modern” materialism and empiricism here: All things -- including minds -- are made of atoms and follow natural laws. All knowledge comes from the senses. Thoughts and memories are nothing but weak sensations....
Virtue for Epicurus was a means to an end. That end is happiness. It is good to feel pleasure and to avoid pain, but one needs to apply reason to life. Sometimes pain is necessary in order to gain happiness. Other times, pleasure leads to more suffering than it is worth.
And there are levels of pain and pleasure, smaller and greater happinesses. Friendship, for example, is rated one of the highest pleasures. “A sage loves his friends as he loves himself,” he said, and “It is better to give than to receive.” And “It is not possible to live pleasantly without living prudently, honorably, and justly; nor to live prudently, honorably, and justly without living pleasantly.” He reminds me of Benjamin Franklin!
Society is seen as necessary: It protects one from injustices. He foreshadows utilitarianism by suggesting that a society should be arranged to provide the greatest happiness to the greatest number.
The ultimate happiness, though, is peace, and he borrows Pyrrho’s word for tranquility -- ataraxia. His motto was “lathe biosas” -- live unobtrusively. He may be considered the first true humanist, as witnessed by this quote: "Philosophy is an activity that uses reasoning and rigorous argument to promote human flourishing."
The best summary of epicureanism is the epic poem On the Nature of Things by Roman Lucretius (95-52).
Note the practical similarities between stoicism and epicureanism, despite their theoretical differences! Both were popular in the Roman era, stoicism in Rome’s early, more vigorous years and continuing among the rank and file of Roman citizenry, and epicureanism (even hedonism) behind closed doors, especially at the highest levels of the empire.
Paul was not engaging the uneducated or those unaccustomed to dissecting or debating ideas old or new but in fact lived for this very thing, here is some of their exchange in Acts 17;
Acts 17
16Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
17Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
18Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
19And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
20For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
21(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
22Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33So Paul departed from among them.
34Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
This is probably more than enough for now, there are some things from Proverbs, Daniel, etc. that can be added later if there is any interest.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
-
okay...so...is that a yes?
:) I'm trying to understand what you believe about our function as priests and kings (if indeed we are so blessed to be part of the Elect).....do we finally RIGHT some of the WRONGS that persist in society-- that is what I am asking.
sorry to be such a pain! :) Joyce
-
okay...so...is that a yes?
:)
;D LOL
Hi Joyce,
You are not a pain at all Sister!
The short answer (for me) is that we are to do the very best possible to instruct our children with skills for existing in this life and also teach them of our Lord and Saviour.
I have some scriptures on my home computer I put together last night, I will post them later today. I am at the office now, getting ready for a potentially busy day.
His Peace to you,
Joe
-
Hi Joyce,
I find your question very interesting. I have also wondered how some of this stuff that is experienced now, while physical, is going to be of any value in the world to come, for those ruling with Christ.
I mean I spend a lot of time in food preparation; planning meals, shopping for groceries, cooking, serving and cleaning up. How in the world could that be in any way useful in preparing someone to function as priest or king in the kingdom?
Well this is how I'm thinking about this. There is no doubt certain things that God is using in our lives to prepare us for specific responsibilities. Like Joe was saying about Paul. Paul's background as to how he was educated and the social life he engaged in, gave him the knowledge and experience he needed to deal with those he would later encounter in his ministry. I can also see how that will be a help to him when he is ruling with Christ and dealing with these same type people in the kingdom.
I also think that Christ is preparing His Elect to have knowledge in certain areas. so they can better serve Him in this life and the next too.
But I have wondered about all these mundane things we do and can cooking and taking care of a family really be useful to prepare someone to rule with Christ? Well I think so, in that everything we do (education, medicine, law or taking care of a family) pretty much relates to dealing with people. So whatever we are doing, we are basicly learning how to interact with people. I think our experiences with people in whatever form it takes is invaluable and is the key thing that we are learning. And that is because those ruling with Christ will be judging the world (1 Cor. 6:2), which means of course that they will be dealing with people.
Actually I think everything we do in this life is of value, the experiences we have both good and bad are learning lessons, because it teaches us something. I think for those that Christ is preparing, these lessons will be understood and fully developed now in this life.
Where as for most of humanity I think it is just an experience at this point, valuable none the less, but will not be fully learned until judgment. That is when the Elect who will be unitied as one with God and can use what they have been taught to judge the world.
I hope I was not too off target with this :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
:) by no means, Kat! you are right on! I am thinking the WAY we handle situations in life is so DIFFERENT from the WAY they are handled by others. For instance: you are given a situation where if you were to LIE about something, you might benefit in some way by doing that....the guy standing next to you is presented with the SAME scenario. Now, having been given the GIFT of faith and having been GIVEN the gift of the Holy Spirit, you choose to tell the TRUTH. But the poor fella next to you responds in the same beastly way that you yourself once did and lies! Now you KNOW that he is simply doing what he is only capable of....and you WANT to help him along and show him that he must LEARN to tell the truth! But without the help of the Holy Spirit residing within this guys heart, there is NO way that you can explain yourself. Now....(and here is where being a mom comes in handy) you KNOW that a spanking or other appropriate action would produce the desired result in a child, but you can't do those things with a grown adult! You don't want to just produce "the desired result" ....you don't want to just CLEANSE the OUTSIDE of the cup....you want a heart change to happen...and that cannot happen without the Holy Spirit coming INTO this person's heart.....well....if we become one with Christ and one with the Father, just as Jesus is....then we are also one with the Holy Spirit....and function (in the age to come) as the Father and the Son do....by coming INTO that person and speaking TRUTH to their heart so that they can SEE what needs to be done....I mean...that is where all of this teaching is leading me to go...toward such a scenario....do you get what I am saying? When God is IN the house....it gets run the way it should/ the person chooses the will of the Father. Now God does this mysterious thing in such a way that LOVE enters the equation, this is how I see it at least....and we LOVE His ways....we LOVE telling the truth...it feels good to us...we LEARN righteousness in doing the Father's will. This is just one example...but do you get where I'm going with this?
Joyce :)
-
Hi Joyce,
Yes I see what you are saying. I think that is what this Scripture in Hebrews is saying.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
I think before anyone can know and love God their heart must be changed, so as not to be enmity with God.
Rom 8:7 because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
Rom 8:8 So then they who are in the flesh cannot please God.
But just like with us it will be a process. God has set aside a whole age in which to do the work of saving the whole human race.
Act 17:31 because He did set a day (G2250 hēmera - age, + alway, (mid-) day (by day, [-ly]), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years) in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.'
So when Christ sets up His kingdom on earth how long will it take for God to be all in all? Well He doesn't seem to get it a hurry to do these things. I think Ray is showing us it has been billions of years since the universe was created and man has been in this present age for thousands of years. I guess the process of teaching all the human race righteousness could take a considerable period of time, but I guess there is time.
Isa 66:15 For, behold, Jehovah will come with fire, and with His chariots like a tempest, to refresh His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire.
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by His sword Jehovah will execute judgment with all flesh; and the slain of Jehovah will be many.
1Co 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all things in all.
mercy, peace and love
Kat