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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: winner08 on April 13, 2008, 02:21:46 AM
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A friend and I are always discussing Mr. Rays teachings. I tell her what I learned and she comments on it. For example, I was telling her that we aren't saved until the very end , when after were judged and sentence and are purified with the fire of God, and turn from physical to spirit. Then we are made into the likeness of God Himself. Now we are saved. No she says. She said All you have to do is call on and believe that Christ died for our sins and we are saved. Then she said millions believe this. Then I said just because the many believe in something doesn't mean it's true.I gave the example of the 12 disciples. They were only a few who knew the truth in the beginning. The majority didn't believe. I told her all of the greatest people on earth were of the minority not the majority. So when anyone tells you that, that is what most people believe, don't believe it.
God bless you and yours
Darren
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Darren,
You are just spinning your wheels. You can argue until the second coming and you won't change her mind. What I normally do in a case as this is I give them the link to bible truths or print out some of the articles and leave it at that. Perhaps God will put it in her heart to actually separate scripture from doctrine. Only then will the onion peel open.
Most all of us on this forum do not have a firm enough grasp on the truth to be a good verbal witness or teacher anyway. But we can all be a strong witness by the way we live our lives.
Craig
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Hi Darren,
In Christ's own words;
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Peace,
Joe
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Well, it sounds like you told her all that you could. I've been there too with people, frustrating isn't it? Speak when He tells you to, and stop when He tells you you're finished. He has a reason when He has us speak the truth to them and He has just as much reason when He keeps us quiet. It's hardest for me when He tells me not to talk, lol, but I know He has it all worked out and at the appointed time He'll open their eyes. God bless you and guide you.
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Hi. Good posts!
Usually, in my circle, no one ever asks a thing!!!! I have been putting "key" scriptures in my signature on my e mails, and no one has yet to comment. They are comfortable in their beliefs, and think I have jumped off the edge. They really don't want to separate scripture from doctrine bcz bottom line is they believe in their doctrine/pastor/cbn more!
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Yep that 's true for me too Gena.
The few times I've mentioned anything about this Truth to anyone, it was so far beyond what they knew from church, that they have just decided to leave this subject alone around me. I think they are comfortable being with the many/majority, not willing to hear anything not approved by their 'Christain' contingent/majority. They embrace the darkness and think there is safety in numbers.
1Th 5:2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
1Th 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat
You talk about labor pains. :D Well I saw it happen in someone just today! :(
An elderly man and his friend came into my shop. Those who know me know I have my books, Bibles, notes on my table during the day.
Anyway, back to the labor pains. The man asked me what Bible I use. I explained that I refer to many Bibles and named a few...this seemed to trigger him into a tirade of explaining all about Lucifer and Adam and Eve being perfect and and and...Poor chap! I knew arguing was pointless. But agreeing with him, well that is our perogative to withhold. So...realising the barriers, I asked him to look at my Bible and opened it at Isaiah in which there is a magnificent foot note explanation.
He and his friend poured over the opened Bible reading what I had pointed out. I could see the shock, pain and fear..... I could not show them Ray Smiths teaching. That would have been like a cesarean and they were in no mood to take any pain killing injections! It was a now moment and Rays teachings were in my book case far to far away from this crisis to try to retrieve for them anyway. Here is what they read:
"The Hebrew for this expression - "light-bringer" or "shining one" - is translated ":Lucifer in The Latin Vulgate, and is thus translated in the King James Version. But because of the association of that name with Satan, it is NOT NOW USED IN THIS AND OTHER TRANSLATIONS. Some students feel that the application of the name Lucifer to Satan, in spite of the long and confident teaching to that effect, IS ERRONEOUS. The application of the name to Satan has existed since the third century A D and is based on the SUPPOSITION that Luke 10 : 18 is an explanation of Isa. 14 : 12, which many authorities BELIEVE IS NOT TRUE. "Lucifer, " the light-bringer is the Latin equivalent of the Greek word "Phosphorous," which is used as a title of Christ in 2 Pet 1: 19 and corresponds to the name "radiant and brilliant Morning Star" in Rev 22 : 16, a name Jesus called Himself. This passage here in Isa 14:13 CLEARLY APPLIES TO THE KING OF BABYLON. The city of Babylon was in the midst of a very fertile area, and it would have seemed reasonable to suppose that, regardless of what happened to the population, the region would always furnish pasturage for flocks. But Isaiah said it would become the possession of wild animals and would be covered with "marshes and pools of water. " This is how that prophecy was literally fulfilled: after Babylon was taken, the whole area around the city was put under water from neglect of the canals and dikes of the Euphrates River. It became stagnant "marshes and pools of water" among ruins haunted by wild animals, proclaiming to any who might see it that "surely, as the Lord has thought and planned, so shall it come to pass. Isa 14:24 Caps mine to present emphasis.
I am not trying to ridicule this man that the labour pain of the truth tearing down his false beliefs caused him pain. I pointed out that to believe that Lucifer is Satan is to believe God is a fool and impotent. When that connection struck him, he went straight into denial but had no basis for defence against what he has believed to be the truth which is actually the error and the lie. I simply observed the horror and can empathise with the revelation of nakedness and terror that briefly showed across his face.
As he paid for the goods he was purchasing he asked me where God was. I said everywhere. I explained that God is Spirit. Again it appeared to me as a mother, that he lapsed into an intense like labour pain so deep, as he repeated what he had falsly believed which was that God is A Spirit. No I reassured him. God is not A Spirit. GOD IS SPIRIT. Again, to my mothers eyes it seemed like labour pains tweekied and a fleeting shadow of pain etched again across his face. He just could not stand in the same spot at the same time and seemed like he wanted to jump out of his skin.
He said he would be back again....I wonder? The wonderful thing about all this is that he said he does not go to Church or belong to one as he seemed to dash out of my shop telling me on his hurried way out that he had to be somewhere....
Peace to you Sister
Arcturus :)
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Hello everybody, Thanks for all of your post. It's wonderfull. This friend of mind ( the same one I made this subject about). Anyways, today she came up to me and started talking about the subject of being saved. Well this went on for a very long time. She tell me, then I would tell her. Well doing this time she interjected something like, well you believe everything that guy Ray Tell's you. I said no., anything Ray teaches, he always shows chapter and virus in the bible. I said it's not what Ray teaches it's what the scripture teaches. Then, what she said next floored me. She said she went to Rays site and looked into it. Of course she said it was all a lie. Point being that she took the time to look Ray's teachings up. If she believes or not is not the point. It's the fact that she was reading Ray's teachings. This reminded me that, that's all I can do is plant the seed. God takes it from there. I remembered when my uncle planted my seed. It was almost 30yrs. ago. It took 20 yrs to sprout. All in God's time, not ours.
God bless you and yours
Darren
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OK, this is an interesting topic.
I have noticed that its is easier to explain scriptural truths to people that have little to no bible knowledge than to someone who has been "churched" all their lives.
For example...I have spoken to an Agnostic, a Wicca, and a discouraged christian about scriptural truths that are commonly shared here on the forums. For the most part they all respond to them well. Also in discussions I have noticed that past experiences in churches was the reason why they went astray. It is appears to me that the less "church" a person has, the more responsive they are to these scriptural truths, BUT on the "flip side of that coin"...The longer they have been in church(regardless of denomination) or have had some kind of bible college\seminary back ground; YOU MIGHT AS WELL BE PICKING A FIGHT! :o
I no longer discuss what I have learned here to the common christian.(unless will by God somehow!?!)
I rather share my testimony of how God is always good to me and how well he takes care of me regardless of my circumstances. 8) I have a better responce that way and save the bible truths for someone whom is truly searching for life's answers. They are the ones who are usually well receptive to Gods good word. ;)
roundbelly
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Proverbs 28:18
18.) Whoso walketh uprightly shall be saved: but he that is perverse in his ways shall fall at once.
Matthew 10:22
22.)And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13
13.)But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 13:13
13.)And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 16:16
16.)He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
John 10:9
9.) I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Acts 2:21
21.)And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:13
13.)For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
According to the Scriptures, you must do these things and you shall be saved. But which ones? the easy ones, the hard ones, all of them, etc.? Should I get my head dunked in the pool or God won't save me? Most people would think that they can call upon his name before "unto the end", right? I would think "many" believe that. Remember God is ONE and His Word is ONE. If you have done one of these, you've done them all.
I recommend you listen to Ray's Audio about getting saved. I think if you go to the audio section it's toward the bottom of the page, correct?
Anyway, I hope posting these verses helped.
-Beau
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Thanks Beau: All of y'all post helps tremendously. Thanks again. Y'all really want to hear something weird? I have a friend that says smoking's isn't a sin. I try to tell her that anything that defiles Gods temple is a sin. (Temple being the human body). She's one of these people who knows everything. Anyways I ask her what she means. She said smoking in itself it's not a sin, it how you smoke. I asked her what does that mean. She said If you smoke like a chain smoker your abusing your body. But if you smoke every 20 to 30 Min's. it"s not a sin, because your not abusing your body. This is person who believe"s that Jesus doesn"t have a father.
God bless you and yours.
Darren
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Phyliss,
I understand your frustration.
I wouldn't be to condemning of your friend though, I would focus more on the good qualities and telling her that you love her.
She is a smoker, she knows it is bad for he, she knows you do not approve, and she will quit when/if she is ready.
Anyway, don't we all eat/drink things on occasion that are considered "poison" for our bodies. I have this problem with cookies ;D
Matt
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Yes Matthew, we all indulge once in a while. But I wasn't putting her down. I made the comment about the smoking so we all can relate to the denial factor. trying to justified things in our own mind. that we know isn't good for us.
Thank you, and bless you and yours.
Darren
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No to get too OT here but, Roundbelly, I have noticed the exact same thing! I usually speak quite openly to people with no religious background or those that have been put off by churches and what I say is weel received; but when I have spoken to believers, forget it I've been called a heretic and blasphemer etc..
PS. Darren, I got what you were saying ;)
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Are Phyllis and winner08 the same Darren, or do I need just need to finish my coffee?
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Are Phyllis and winner08 the same Darren, or do I need just need to finish my coffee?
Dude, I was thinking the same thing! Like did he switch is username or something?
Marques
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Are Phyllis and winner08 the same Darren, or do I need just need to finish my coffee?
Dude, I was thinking the same thing! Like did he switch is username or something?
Marques
Phyllis is Darren's wife. They both use the same computer, I think he mentioned that....and I'm assuming they use whichever user name is logged in at the time; but maybe it's just something they don't pay attention to.
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Phyllis and Darren are husband and wife. We read all the same post and usually write what we are thinking about, Winner 08 is Darren and Phyllis Is Phyllis. One again we're sorry for the confusion. I hope this clears this matter up once and for all.
Peace to you and yours
Phyllis and Darren.
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No problem...it was actually pretty funny but no big deal ;D
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;D
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Phyllis & Darren,
Thanks, I would not have guessed, but am pleased that you are of one mind. Great!
= = =
Deborah (Arcturus)
RE: God is not a spirit. God is SPIRIT.
I think I understand your meaning, but since spirit is translated from "pneuma" or breath how are folks such as the man you mentioned to understand God's presence everywhere and yet retaining His power and personal concern and influence.
Also please contrast this term pneuma with psuche which Strongs 5590 defines partly as "the animal sentient principle only"
Strong also defines psuche as "the breath of life, that vital force which animates the body . . . "
I'm curious how a man who is reading this idea for the first time after realizing that Lucifer is not Satan, would understand the difference or how it applies to a general understanding of scripture.
Thanks for your comments.
indiana bob
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Hi indianabob
You ask quote :.... how are folks such as the man you mentioned to understand God's presence everywhere and yet retaining His power and personal concern and influence.
We have learnt here in BT that only by His Spirit are these spiritual things understood. I believe this to be true and know that I too do not have clear sight yet but one day I will have. I do not know what the man's reaction to reading the truth will be. The man rushed out the shop for reasons he gave. I do not know how God is working in him with the truth he read with his own eyes and the hope I can only hope he heard with his own ears that God IS everywhere. 8)
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Darren and Phyllis are husban and wife.
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The title of this post reminds me of one of the early points in the bible that bothered my human senses. Man's way is that the majority rules. Whatever or whoever gets the most votes wins.
God's way is that the minority is the right way or the holder of the truth. From Genesis through Exodus, Judges, the life of David and through the NT, it is always the minority or the few that are right.
God's ways really are not our ways. Go against whatever the flesh is urging you to do. Just like Proverbs 3:5 says "Trust in the Lord with all of your heart, lean not on your own understanding". Do not reason it out according to your common sense. Trust in the Lord not in numbers.
There is a great scene in Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail where Indy is having to follow instructions in order to get through the final obstacle course to get the Holy Grail. He comes to an extremely deep ravine or gorge that has no visible path or bridge to cross, but his instructions are to trust and just step out. He has no choice and steps out. Invisible to the physical eye is a walkway that he runs across on.
So to is trusting God not what one can see or reason.
CIY
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Hi everyone-- i wanted to chime in here and say 'roundbelly' is correct i was not a church goer oh i visited a few times mostly during 'christmas'&'easter'.
I also watched tbn the last few years however alot of what was being taught became more and more confusing-especially that goofball rapture stuff i looked in the Bible soo many times for this rapture verse and all i could find was the ressurrection. However i must say some of the folks on there did help me to dig into the bible more ernestly,after my house of sand fell.Anyway i am soo glad the lord kept me from being indoctrinated-and thats why i have grabbed ahold of what ray has said.However the lions share of the credit goes to our lord as he would tell me things to study and learn each and every day.
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A friend and I are always discussing Mr. Rays teachings. I tell her what I learned and she comments on it. For example, I was telling her that we aren't saved until the very end , when after were judged and sentence and are purified with the fire of God, and turn from physical to spirit. Then we are made into the likeness of God Himself. Now we are saved. No she says. She said All you have to do is call on and believe that Christ died for our sins and we are saved. Then she said millions believe this. Then I said just because the many believe in something doesn't mean it's true.I gave the example of the 12 disciples. They were only a few who knew the truth in the beginning. The majority didn't believe. I told her all of the greatest people on earth were of the minority not the majority. So when anyone tells you that, that is what most people believe, don't believe it.
God bless you and yours
Darren
Dear Daren
I had a pentecostal friend visiting the other day and he mentioned that his pastor had given an excellent sermon on "hell". So I asked him if he believed in hell? To which he replied, of course, don't you? And I told him that I believed it was a load of garbage. To which he asked what I meant by that.
So I asked him if he believed that God knows everything from the beginning of creation to the end? He said of course He does. If you believe that, I said, then you're telling me that this murderous god of yours, not mine, knows in advance that he is going to send the trillions upon trillions of human beings he has created and is still creating to hell to burn forever in eternal torment?
What kind of god is that? Can you truly worship someone so utterly vile? I couldn't, I'd have to throw up.
He said, "You've got me confused now, please stop."
If you don't want to hear anymore of course I will, I replied, but do yourself and me a favour and read this. I handed him a copy of Ray's critique of Hagee's sermon "The seven wonders of hell" apologized for upsetting him and left it at that. It was now the Holy Spirit's jurisdiction, my job was done, the seed was sown.
God bless