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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: SteveB on May 12, 2006, 08:39:28 PM
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so if must be true. :lol: Check out this 'great' piece of '____'written by the 'bible answer man'. So weak is this paper i was embarrested for him just reading it. This is from his website (satans) 'equip.org'.
Why Should I Believe in Hell?
by: Hank Hanegraaff
"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt� (Daniel 12:2 NIV).
The horrors of hell are such that they cause us instinctively to recoil in disbelief and doubt; yet, there are compelling reasons that should cause us to erase such doubt from our minds. First, Christ, the Creator of the cosmos, clearly communicated hell’s irrevocable reality. In fact, He spent more time talking about hell than He did about heaven. In the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5–7), He explicitly warned His followers more than a half-dozen times about the dangers that lead to hell. In the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24–25), He repeatedly told His followers of the judgment to come. In His famous story of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16), He graphically portrayed the finality of eternal torment in hell.
Furthermore, the concept of choice demands that we believe in hell. Without hell, there is no choice. Without choice, heaven would not be heaven; heaven would be hell. The righteous would inherit a counterfeit heaven, and the unrighteous would be incarcerated in heaven against their wills, which would be a torture worse than hell. Imagine spending a lifetime voluntarily distanced from God only to find yourself involuntarily dragged into His loving presence for all eternity. The alternative to hell would be worse than hell itself in that humans made in the image of God would be stripped of freedom and forced to worship God against their will.
Finally, common sense regarding justice dictates that there must be a hell. Without hell, the wrongs of Hitler’s Holocaust would never be righted. Justice would be impugned if, after slaughtering six million Jews, Hitler merely died in the arms of his mistress with no eternal consequences. The ancients knew better than to think such a thing. David knew that it might seem for a time as though the wicked prosper despite their evil deeds, but, in the end, justice will be served. We may wish to think that no one will go to hell, but common sense regarding justice precludes that possibility.
IS ANNIHILATIONISM BIBLICAL?
If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name. (Rev. 14:9–11 NIV)
Just as universalism (i.e., everyone will be saved) is the rage in liberal Christian circles, so, too, annihilationism (i.e., God will annihilate unbelievers) is gaining momentum in conservative Christian circles. The question, of course, is whether annihilationism is Biblical.
First, common sense tells us that a God of love and justice does not arbitrarily annihilate a portion of the crowning jewels of His creation. He graciously provides everyone the freedom to choose between redemption and rebellion. It would be a horrific evil to think that God would create people with freedom of choice and then annihilate them because of their choices.
Furthermore, common sense also leads us to the conclusion that nonexistence is not better than existence since nonexistence is nothing at all. It is also crucial to recognize that not all existence in hell will be equal. We may safely conclude that Hitler’s torment in hell will greatly exceed the torment experienced by a garden-variety pagan. God is perfectly just, and each person who spurns His grace will suffer exactly what he or she deserves (see Luke 12:47–48; cf. Proverbs 24:12; Matthew 16:27; Colossians 3:25; Revelation 20:11–15).
Finally, humans are fashioned in the very image of God (Genesis 1:27); therefore, to eliminate them would do violence to His nature. The alternative to annihilation is quarantine. That is precisely what hell is. - Hank Hanegraaff
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This guy is such a fool its sad. :cry: See how he keeps using the words 'common sence' this natural man foolishness. And notice how he calls us 'liberals' guess he's never been to bibletruths/*not-allowed*.com.
I'm not even going to waste my time refuting this nonsense. And to think of all the good this guy could do for the kingdom with that kind of platform.
Guess thats what the Lord means by few. :cry:
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"First, common sense tells us that a God of love and justice does not arbitrarily annihilate a portion of the crowning jewels of His creation. He graciously provides everyone the freedom to choose between redemption and rebellion. It would be a horrific evil to think that God would create people with freedom of choice and then annihilate them because of their choices."
This guy is unbelievable!! so it would be "horrific" if God would create people with freedom of choice and then annihilate them because of their choices" but it's not horrific for God to create people with "freedom of choice" and then brutally torture those "crowning jewels of His creation" for
all eternity because of their choices? Annihilation is a gazillion times more merciful than hell!
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Unbelievable. Notice how these guys just stay on the surface and retread old, common ideas? No real scripture ever to back it up. By the way, who is this guy and why does he have a platform. Altho the name looks vaguely familiar, I don't know that I know anything about him.
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I can't understand these people's thinking....even though I used to think the same way. But, to say that a loving God created creatures who had NO CHOICE in being created in the first place.....then UNWILLINGLY subjected them to vanity....blinded them from the true light from birth till death, then will torture them for all eternity for not making the right choices....that has to be the epitomy of EVIL!
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in BLASPHEMY against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT OF HER, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
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Unbelievable. Notice how these guys just stay on the surface and retread old, common ideas? No real scripture ever to back it up. By the way, who is this guy and why does he have a platform. Altho the name looks vaguely familiar, I don't know that I know anything about him.
He's got one of the biggest radio shows in the country. And for a 'bible answer man' he needs to do A LOT more studying.
Peace...Steve
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so if must be true. :lol: Check out this 'great' piece of '____'written by the 'bible answer man'. So weak is this paper i was embarrested for him just reading it. This is from his website (satans) 'equip.org'.
Why Should I Believe in Hell?
by: Hank Hanegraaff
"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt� (Daniel 12:2 NIV).
The horrors of hell are such that they cause us instinctively to recoil in disbelief and doubt; yet, there are compelling reasons that should cause us to erase such doubt from our minds. First, Christ, the Creator of the cosmos, clearly communicated hell’s irrevocable reality. In fact, He spent more time talking about hell than He did about heaven. In the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5–7), He explicitly warned His followers more than a half-dozen times about the dangers that lead to hell. In the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24–25), He repeatedly told His followers of the judgment to come. In His famous story of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16), He graphically portrayed the finality of eternal torment in hell.
Furthermore, the concept of choice demands that we believe in hell. Without hell, there is no choice. Without choice, heaven would not be heaven; heaven would be hell. The righteous would inherit a counterfeit heaven, and the unrighteous would be incarcerated in heaven against their wills, which would be a torture worse than hell. Imagine spending a lifetime voluntarily distanced from God only to find yourself involuntarily dragged into His loving presence for all eternity. The alternative to hell would be worse than hell itself in that humans made in the image of God would be stripped of freedom and forced to worship God against their will.
Finally, common sense regarding justice dictates that there must be a hell. Without hell, the wrongs of Hitler’s Holocaust would never be righted. Justice would be impugned if, after slaughtering six million Jews, Hitler merely died in the arms of his mistress with no eternal consequences. The ancients knew better than to think such a thing. David knew that it might seem for a time as though the wicked prosper despite their evil deeds, but, in the end, justice will be served. We may wish to think that no one will go to hell, but common sense regarding justice precludes that possibility.
IS ANNIHILATIONISM BIBLICAL?
If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name. (Rev. 14:9–11 NIV)
Just as universalism (i.e., everyone will be saved) is the rage in liberal Christian circles, so, too, annihilationism (i.e., God will annihilate unbelievers) is gaining momentum in conservative Christian circles. The question, of course, is whether annihilationism is Biblical.
First, common sense tells us that a God of love and justice does not arbitrarily annihilate a portion of the crowning jewels of His creation. He graciously provides everyone the freedom to choose between redemption and rebellion. It would be a horrific evil to think that God would create people with freedom of choice and then annihilate them because of their choices.
Furthermore, common sense also leads us to the conclusion that nonexistence is not better than existence since nonexistence is nothing at all. It is also crucial to recognize that not all existence in hell will be equal. We may safely conclude that Hitler’s torment in hell will greatly exceed the torment experienced by a garden-variety pagan. God is perfectly just, and each person who spurns His grace will suffer exactly what he or she deserves (see Luke 12:47–48; cf. Proverbs 24:12; Matthew 16:27; Colossians 3:25; Revelation 20:11–15).
Finally, humans are fashioned in the very image of God (Genesis 1:27); therefore, to eliminate them would do violence to His nature. The alternative to annihilation is quarantine. That is precisely what hell is. - Hank Hanegraaff
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This guy is such a fool its sad. :cry: See how he keeps using the words 'common sence' this natural man foolishness. And notice how he calls us 'liberals' guess he's never been to bibletruths/*not-allowed*.com.
I'm not even going to waste my time refuting this nonsense. And to think of all the good this guy could do for the kingdom with that kind of platform.
Guess thats what the Lord means by few. :cry:
Wow! I saw someone post this on myspace. Don't worry... I refuted it.
http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=16883493&categoryID=0&IsSticky=0&groupID=100096596&Mytoken=8222EFC9-C4A4-444B-81EFA27B5550412B679579937
Here's my post:
The doctrine of hell and eternal torment is the result of sick and twisted minds and the lack of understanding of the Scriptures.
This person quotes Daniel 12:2. I would like to point out the word translated everlasting. The Hebrew word is olam. This is the same word used in Gen 9:16.
"And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth" (Gen 9:16, KJV).
We all know this covenant, spoken of in Gen 9:16, was not everlasting. Jesus formed a new covenant. Will anyone disagree with me? I hope not. Therefore, olam, at least in this case, does not take on the meaning of never-ending-ness.
The word is also used in Hab 3:6.
"He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered" (Hab 3:6, KJV).
The moutains are considered "everlasting, " or olam, yet are scattered. Therefore, the moutains were not "everlasting."
The fact is, the language of Hebrew, and Greek for that matter, did not have a word to denote eternity. They did not think like we do. Time to them was different. Thus why olam is used to describe general duration with beginning and end or time as long as one lives.
This guy says Christ talked more about hell than he did about heaven. Well, let me run a quick search.
Gehenna, the word used to describe judgment, used by Jesus, is used ONLY 12 times in the entire New Testament. On the other hand, the word heaven is used 238 times throughout the New Testament, mostly by Jesus!
This person goes on to use Luke 16 for an example. I would like to point out that this is a PARABLE. It is allegorical. Tell me, are the seeds Jesus preached about in his parables literal? (Mar 4:15). No! Can you gain spiritual meaning from those parables? Yes!
The person goes on to write one of the most ridiculous and anti-scriptural things Ive ever read:
"Furthermore, the concept of choice demands that we believe in hell. Without hell, there is no choice. Without choice, heaven would not be heaven; heaven would be hell. The righteous would inherit a counterfeit heaven, and the unrighteous would be incarcerated in heaven against their wills, which would be a torture worse than hell. Imagine spending a lifetime voluntarily distanced from God only to find yourself involuntarily dragged into His loving presence for all eternity. The alternative to hell would be worse than hell itself in that humans made in the image of God would be stripped of freedom and forced to worship God against their will."
This is in utter contradiction with the Scriptures. He says that it would be "torture" to be "involuntarily dragged into His loving presence." I dont know about you, but when my parents DRAG me into their loving presence, after chastening me for a good cause, it is NOT TORTURE, but LOVE that is for my own GOOD.
I guess this guy is being tortured. I guess I am being tortured. BECAUSE NO MAN COMES TO CHRIST EXCEPT HE OR SHE IS DRAGGED! YES THATS RIGHT! This man says its torture to be dragged to Christ, BUT THATS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS!
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day" (Joh 6:44, KJV).
The Greek word translated draw in this verse is:
hel-koo'-o, hel'-ko
Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw. Compare G1667.
This word means to drag, literally! So NO MAN COMES TO CHRIST "EXCEPT THE FATHER DRAW [LITERALLY TO DRAG] HIM." Are we all being tortured? According to this heretic we are.
He goes on to talk about free will without a single Scripture to support the heretical doctrine. All I can leave you with for the sake of brevity is this verse:
"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" (Eph 1:11, KJV).
He goes on to say:
"Finally, common sense regarding justice dictates that there must be a hell. Without hell, the wrongs of Hitlers Holocaust would never be righted. Justice would be impugned if, after slaughtering six million Jews, Hitler merely died in the arms of his mistress with no eternal consequences. The ancients knew better than to think such a thing. David knew that it might seem for a time as though the wicked prosper despite their evil deeds, but, in the end, justice will be served. We may wish to think that no one will go to hell, but common sense regarding justice precludes that possibility.
Why Should I Believe in Hell?"
Who ever said the wrongs of Hitler would never be righted? The Bible speaks of jugement, in which the world will LEARN righteous (Isa 26:9). But judgment serves a purpose. Our loving God is our FATHER and He teaches us.
Tell me, what would happen if I had a child, and tortured him for his entire life? Would that make me a very good Father? ABSOLUTELY NOT. On the other hand, if my child did something wrong, and I chastised him for it, would not my child learn, and would I not be a loving Father?
I dont know about the rest of you. But I LOVE Hitler. I feel bad for him. Its horrible when a human being (like Judas) is DESTINED to be influenced by spirits. I, however, know that Hitler will be judged. But through judgment he will learn! Thank God!
If hell is eternal, then God is not just. No doubt about it. Tell me, if I steal a piece of candy, and am sentenced to life in prison, is that just? Tell me, if a person that never hears about God, dies in his sins, and gets sentenced to ETERNAL TORMENT, is that just? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Jesus said that those that do not follow him will be BEATEN with stripes. But for a purpose. And he never said the stripes are endless.
"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes" (Luk 12:47, KJV).
Paul explains to us that the sinners will reap what they sow (Gal 6:7). Now, tell me, did Hitler SOW eternal torment? No. Now tell me, will he reap eternal torment? God forbid. Sinners will reap what they sow, and NO SINNER HAS EVER OR WILL EVER SOW ETERNAL TORMENT. Yet, we say our loving God, who tells us to overcome evil with love, and LOVE our enemies, will do the oposite, and torture his enemies with HATEFUL FIRE for all eternity. How sick!
"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" (1Co 3:15, KJV).
Fire will save mankind, I assure you.
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" (Rom 11:26, KJV).
All Israel will be saved, including all the murderers, and spiritually fornicating Christ denying Jews.
"And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest" (Heb 8:11, KJV).
ALL SHALL KNOW HIM, LEAST TO THE GREATEST!
Do I deny judgment? No. Do I deny chastisement? No. Do I deny the act of total injustice of torturing mankind in their sins for all eternity? Yes.
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;" (Rev 2:7, KJV).
PS. I do not have the time to go through the entire article. Im sorry. But Im still in high school and I have homework. What I wrote is the best I can do. I pray that the rest of you can read it with an open mind. Thanks.
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Nightmare_sasuke,
I noticed 'Follow The Nazarene' getting very upset with you in the myspace thread you posted for sharing the scriptural truth. In your next response to him, perhaps you should tell him that if he cannot offer you a scriptural refutation and explanation for the points you posted, then his responses are 'singing to the choir' and not welcome, or something to that effect. He just seems to be exhaling a lot of theo("ill")logical hot air.
Just a recommendation :?
With Love,
- Brett
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Nightmare, I thought that you done a wonderful job at refuting them.
The one guy points out your age as if that is something.
Make sure that you give him the scripture 1Tim4:12. He shouldnt have a whole lot to say. Then again he probably will have alot of nothing to say.
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Bobby I have to agree with you. It is really sad, but I use to be just as they were. God chose for me to see the truth in this horrible doctrine.
Dont know why He did but Im surely thankful. All we can do is pray for those to see and they will see if it is according to Gods will. If they dont see in this age, they will in thier next.
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My question is; why should we care what people such as this think? Haven't we come out of this evil doctrine?
Just wondering........
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nightmare you did an great job with that one!
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My question is; why should we care what people such as this think? Haven't we come out of this evil doctrine?
Just wondering
I dont know about everyone else but the reason i posted this was to...
Tit 1:9 Holding fast, in the matter of his teaching, the faithful word, that he may be able both to encourage with his healthful instruction, and, the gainsayers, to refute.
Exposing these teachings for the utter LIES they are should be everyone concern.
Paul and John both called out the people BY NAME who were teaching FALSE doctrine. So i'll do the same.
Just like Rays papers to Kennedy and Hagee, I wanted to show the rest of the forum what LAME arguements these FALSE PROPHETS are teaching.
Peace...Steve
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Steve, if you feel the Lord is calling you to seek these people out than who can say you should not, but remember;
Phi 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife railings evil surmisings.
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
and also;
Pro 25:9 Debate thy cause with thy neighbor himself; and discover not a secret to another:
Isa 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
But we are instructed to;
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
Steve I hope you take this in the spirit it is given, I only know my own heart and when I would look for others to debate and show them how wrong they are it was my carnal mind doing the thinking, these "debates" ultimately would tie my stomach in knots, frustrating me and I felt I was stunting my spiritual growth. This may not be true for you or others who are going to other sites and confronting their beliefs, but I know the effect it had on me and some others here, so I hope I am not offending you but just giving food for thought.
Peace,
Joe
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Steve, if you feel the Lord is calling you to seek these people out than who can say you should not, but remember;
Phi 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife railings evil surmisings.
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
Those are good scriptures, indeed. HOwever I was not 'seeking them out' i never email hanagraff or attempted to debate with him. It would be a 'lost cause' if i did. I just saw this on a website and thought i needed to be called to attention.
My only thing was to show the people on this forum the depths of heresy going on in the 'chruch'.
And as for the 1tim. references go not sure how that applys to me. I'm of no diagreement with the teaching of Ray or Mike or anyother of the elect. I'm of ONE mind, Jesus Christs mind. Maybe i misunderstood your application of those verses?
and also;
Pro 25:9 Debate thy cause with thy neighbor himself; and discover not a secret to another:
Isa 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
The proverbs ref. is good and i'll remember that but this however was no secret it was sent in mass to the public.
Isa ref. i dont think applys in this situation because i'm NOT seeking strife or debate with the elect. ON the contrary this was ment to help build the elect. And as Paul on Mars hill preached of the foolishness of the pagans there so i to preach of the foolishness of my pagan 'christian' brothers.
Rom ref.-not sure what your saying here but i'll assume you ment debate. As i said before debate was not my intention ONLY to expose those who contradict.
But we are instructed to;
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
Steve I hope you take this in the spirit it is given, I only know my own heart and when I would look for others to debate and show them how wrong they are it was my carnal mind doing the thinking, these "debates" ultimately would tie my stomach in knots, frustrating me and I felt I was stunting my spiritual growth. This may not be true for you or others who are going to other sites and confronting their beliefs, but I know the effect it had on me and some others here, so I hope I am not offending you but just giving food for thought.
Peace,
Joe
Joe i'm not sure you understood my post so i'll say it again. I WAS NOT DEBATING WITH ANYONE! I to understand the 1Pet. reference and its application.
I do not go to other sites for debates. However ON PUBLIC FORUMS would not be sin to post there about our beliefs. Paul did the same same thing on Mars hill and Mike and Ray both do the same with there web sites. And no you are not offending me.
YOur doing your job as mod. And i thank you for your scriptures and thought for my intentions. I hope you've seen my intentions from this post and things are more clear.
If not pm me. Peace...Steve
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Hank Hannagraf touts himself as the "Bible Answer Man".
As someone else said, he has one of the largest orthodox radio ministries in the world.
I can remember several years ago catching a discussion on hell on his program. His guest was Lee Stroble, author of the book a "Case for Christ". (seems like I saw him on TBN resently)
Anyway, I remember them talking on the subject of Hell, and specifically noticed they both seemed to think it was not literal fire.
They referenced passages which talked about being cast into outer darkness, which literal fire would not be.
Their vague conclusion was that the degree of punishment must therefore be differing degrees of separation from God.
I remember this so well, because I though right there, I wish I could get through on their phone line and ask them if they were saying some of the damned (as they call them) would therefore be closer to God than other more wicked people who according to them would be separated farther from God.
I did write Hanagraf a note, and got a form letter responce and a request for a donation. Fact is ever since, I have recieved phone solicitation for money from his ministry, and their mailing list solicitation as well.
I figure, oh well, that's just one less newsletter someone else might have gotten :)
One last thing, if you think Hank's rendition of hell is wacky, you should listen to him try and explain his belief in the trinity...lol it'll rack your brain :)
BR
Zacman
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Hank Hannagraf has been tossed to and fro with the waves of doctrine. I have now seen (since I used to be a daily listener to his show) him say that Hell is eternal torment to Jesus completed it all, all mankind are saved back to Hell does not exist and now back to Hell is eternal torment. Since he lacks consistancy in his own beliefs, it is hard to call him the Bible Answer Man for this reason alone.
If Justice is what Hank is asking for, he should deal with God over it. The World has been reconciled in Christ Jesus, not counting the world's sins against them. Pretty hard to punish any further for the Hitlers, Stalin's, Nero's etc. of the world, when their sins are not counted against them.
My two cents.
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If Justice is what Hank is asking for, he should deal with God over it. The World has been reconciled in Christ Jesus, not counting the world's sins against them. Pretty hard to punish any further for the Hitlers, Stalin's, Nero's etc. of the world, when their sins are not counted against them.
My two cents.
You know all the Hitlers, Stalin's, Nero's etc. of the world would never had been in leadership positions if God had not put them there for a purpose. It's funny that he's supposed to be the Bible answer man and not know this.
Hell is something that come out of the evil imagination of men. Leave judgement in the hands of God.
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Bobby,
We are not trying to change anybody, but rather Exposing Those who contradict. Titus 1:9
SteveB, didn't start this for Hank's benefit, but for ours.
God Bless,
Sorin
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Bobby, You did not offend me at all. I was just saying. since Hank does not visit this forum, then there's no way it can be for his benefit. If people email him and try to explain to him, and God gives him eyes to see, then that would definitely be for his benefit.
God Bless,
Sorin
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My original question was "why do we care what this guy (hellfire Hank) thinks?" It is not intended as a condemnation of SteveB at all! I know I am not alone in learning much from many of Steve's posts, and I consider him a Brother in Christ, very thankful for his fellowship in the Forum.
My point was, (and I probably did a good job in screwing it up) is that debating, refuting and challenging other peoples belief system is not always an edifying experience for everyone or even anyone involved. It has been my experience (and Bobby relayed this same feeling) that when we seek to confront heresy we can sometimes do it in a carnal fashion, more so in the vain glory of being "right" rather than sharing spiritual wisdom. It is especially dangerous for the newer folks who have discovered this wonderful treasure which is His Word, yes, we should defend the faith when the situation presents itself but when we are not ready, when we should rather be studying and seeking the fruits of the spirit we can become bogged down and disenchanted by these contests or a lack of discernment in choosing our battles;
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Any comments on this admonishment from our Lord?
Ray, Mike and others have spent many years in the study of His Word and have a lot of life experience dealing with the heretic principles that we as individuals and as a group have rejected. Most of us are well aquainted with the damnable hell lie and so many other church heresies. Are we better served to regurgitate this stuff over and over or to seek to grow past this into the Lord and allow His spirit to bear fruit in our lives? The apostles spent 3 1/2 years with Jesus during His Ministry on the earth but they were still unprepared and unconverted until well after His crucifiction, does that tell us anything about the time it takes to mature in spirit?
We all have different gifts and different callings I can not say what anyone should be doing if they sincerely feel the call of God, but one thing we can be sure of is what we are all called to do;
1Jo 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
Is that even possible if we have not matured in spirit?
1Co 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity26 edifieth.
1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity26 I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity26, I am nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity26 suffereth long, and is kind; charity26 envieth not; charity26 vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:8 Charity26 never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity,26 which is the bond of perfectness.5047
1Pe 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity26 among yourselves: for charity26 shall cover the multitude of sins.
G26
ἀγάπη
agapē
ag-ah'-pay
From G25; love, that is, affection or benevolence; specifically (plural) a love feast: - (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.
G5047
τελειότης
teleiotēs
tel-i-ot'-ace
From G5046; (the state) completeness (mentally or morally): - perfection (-ness).
I believe growing (in spirit) to the point of having pure charity/love for our brothers and sisters and especially our enemies is the highest calling, again I hope this is taken as food for thought and not as a condemnation of anyone. Thank you all for your comments.
Joe
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Joe, point well taken and I concur.
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and also let's remember that love requires that we remain faithful to the doctrine of Christ above all else. He that is agreeing with false doctrine after two solid refutations is not going to get a "good on you mate" or gentle conciliation from me.
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Jesus loves me so much, and this is why He sometimes chastises me, it's for my own benefit, it is love
do i say this because i disagree with anyone? no way
do i think i am better than anyone? in no way
but false doctrine is false doctrine and love commands me
2Jo 1:10 if any one doth come unto you, and this teaching doth not bear, receive him not into the house, and say not to him, `Hail!'
2Jo 1:11 for he who is saying to him, `Hail,' hath fellowship with his evil works.
sometimes love appears like this
Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
sometimes love appears like this
Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Joh 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
Joh 2:17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
many people get it wrong! they think
nice = spiritual
harsh = carnal
that's so very wrong! that is not judging a righteous judgement
nice can be carnal or spiritual
harsh can be carnal or spiritual
heres how it should look
carnal = carnal
spiritual = spiritual
that's why i like to focus mainly on the doctrine not the messenger
the doctrine is either true or false
sometimes i might think "i don't like this dude"
other times i might think "wow what a cool dude"
then i think "who cares what i think" lets check the doctrine.
i just typed this because it's a really big problem when believers don't realise that resisting false doctrine and those that bring it is very very important work.
we have plenty of niceness but we don't have plenty of people paying attention to doctrine. we have plenty of people worried about the social niceties but not enough people studying to show themselves approved of God.
if i am over zealous or harsh defending the truth, God can chasten that out of me easily.
if i am super nice but let false doctrine in then i am in bad shape.
if for every nine comments on a person there is only one comment on that persons doctrine. it should be the other way around.
how different are james and john when viewed according to style and yet when viewed according to doctrine they are of one mind even the mind of Christ.
f
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We are not trying to change anybody, but rather Exposing Those who contradict. Titus 1:9
SteveB, didn't start this for Hank's benefit, but for ours.
The whole idea of my post was to show how WEAK the arguments of orthodox christianity are. And like Paul says, to expose those that contradict.
I love Hank Hanagraaff. I would do cartwheels if God were to change his mind to the Truth.
Is it possible to call a spade a spade and Love the person? Please read this.
http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm
My original question was "why do we care what this guy (hellfire Hank) thinks?" It is not intended as a condemnation of SteveB at all! I know I am not alone in learning much from many of Steve's posts, and I consider him a Brother in Christ, very thankful for his fellowship in the Forum.
Thank you Joe and i too have learned a lot from your posts including the ones on this thread. I too consider you a Brother in Christ and am glad you are a mod.
My point was, (and I probably did a good job in screwing it up) is that debating, refuting and challenging other peoples belief system is not always an edifying experience for everyone or even anyone involved. It has been my experience (and Bobby relayed this same feeling) that when we seek to confront heresy we can sometimes do it in a carnal fashion, more so in the vain glory of being "right" rather than sharing spiritual wisdom. It is especially dangerous for the newer folks who have discovered this wonderful treasure which is His Word, yes, we should defend the faith when the situation presents itself but when we are not ready, when we should rather be studying and seeking the fruits of the spirit we can become bogged down and disenchanted by these contests or a lack of discernment in choosing our battles;
Wise counsil there. That being said Christ exposed, Paul exposed, Ray exposes, and Mike exposes. I too will continue to expose. OUt of a pure heart and with the edification of the BODY in mind, always.
YOu are right about being easily puffed up about the new found wisdom given to us in the scriptures. I fight it everyday; we all fight it.
As i said, I was not debating Hank or anyone else for that matter. My only thing was to show this DAMNABLE, SICK, LOATHESOME, 'hell' doctrine for what it is. And to EDIFY this Body on just how STUPID the ARGUMENTS ARE. NOT because i hate Hank but because I LOVE HANK AND ALL OF YOU!
There are people who come to his forum who are 'on the rocks' over this doctrine and showing them how LAME these arguements are is a blessing to me, and maybe will change minds(Godwilling).
I believe growing (in spirit) to the point of having pure charity/love for our brothers and sisters and especially our enemies is the highest calling, again I hope this is taken as food for thought and not as a condemnation of anyone. Thank you all for your comments.
Joe
This is so true Joe. The Love of our enemies is our high calling. I love Hank, with God as my witness, I do.
Love does doctrine(as Mike says). I will be more thoughtful in my future posts and thank you for not condeming me.
Love in the commandment of God,
Steve
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Steve, thank you for the kind words my brother, I believe we are of the same mind and seek the same goal.
Joe
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and also let's remember that love requires that we remain faithful to the doctrine of Christ above all else. He that is agreeing with false doctrine after two solid refutations is not going to get a "good on you mate" or gentle conciliation from me.
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Jesus loves me so much, and this is why He sometimes chastises me, it's for my own benefit, it is love
do i say this because i disagree with anyone? no way
do i think i am better than anyone? in no way
but false doctrine is false doctrine and love commands me
2Jo 1:10 if any one doth come unto you, and this teaching doth not bear, receive him not into the house, and say not to him, `Hail!'
2Jo 1:11 for he who is saying to him, `Hail,' hath fellowship with his evil works.
sometimes love appears like this
Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
sometimes love appears like this
Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Joh 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
Joh 2:17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
many people get it wrong! they think
nice = spiritual
harsh = carnal
that's so very wrong! that is not judging a righteous judgement
nice can be carnal or spiritual
harsh can be carnal or spiritual
heres how it should look
carnal = carnal
spiritual = spiritual
that's why i like to focus mainly on the doctrine not the messenger
the doctrine is either true or false
sometimes i might think "i don't like this dude"
other times i might think "wow what a cool dude"
then i think "who cares what i think" lets check the doctrine.
i just typed this because it's a really big problem when believers don't realise that resisting false doctrine and those that bring it is very very important work.
we have plenty of niceness but we don't have plenty of people paying attention to doctrine. we have plenty of people worried about the social niceties but not enough people studying to show themselves approved of God.
if i am over zealous or harsh defending the truth, God can chasten that out of me easily.
if i am super nice but let false doctrine in then i am in bad shape.
if for every nine comments on a person there is only one comment on that persons doctrine. it should be the other way around.
how different are james and john when viewed according to style and yet when viewed according to doctrine they are of one mind even the mind of Christ.
f
Hi Frank, I hope that you did not think my post reflected an idea we accept any bile thrown our way in the name of "love."
No, what I was trying to do was have people consider their motives when entering into a debate or seeking to go into churches, adversarial chatrooms or message boards with their newfound knowledge. This was never intended to chastise Steve or anyone else.
As a moderator here I have deleted posts and made it known to some "preachers" that this forum will not be a platform to heresy nor will it be a conduit to the indoctrination of our members.
I think we here have had many similar experiences through varying stages of our walk in Him, my own experience as a zealous "newbie" led me into countless debates with friends, family & strangers, I can tell you truthfully that very often it left me feeling tied in knots and sometimes questioning even my core beliefs because His spirit was not my motivator or guide through these exchanges.
Now that I wait for my time to witness it seems that His spirit is with me, giving answers and guiding me to patience and longsuffering, not anger or frustration. I think He would be more pleased with us as we set a good example, be generous with the less fortunate and charitable with all who come into contact with us than winning an argument in a chatroom or worse, suffer loss in our spiritual journey.
Jesus had a well defined mission from God the Father, if anyone has been commissioned by Him to seek debates and strife with others rather than meeting heresy with sound doctrine then by all means they should go and do His will. I happen to believe that most of us would be better off seeking growth in the spirit unto perfection.
Again, these ideas I thought were worth consideration.
Peace Brother,
Joe
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i totally agree with your earlier posts and that last one too Joe.
like SteveB i am glad you are a mod and find You a most thought provoking and trustworthy brother. (also you are always giving a good example of godliness)
on reflection my post might have belonged in a different thread. it seemed totally out of context where it was.
for some reason i just had a sudden urge to exhort anyone reading to make sure they care about doctrine at least as much as they care about peoples feelings.
i gotta watch those sudden urges :)
well blessings to all
and may we all
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
i think i need to go and listen to some music and play some pool :)
f
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Up for a round of 9-ball? You break.
Joe
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Bless you heaps Bob, you are coming through loud and clear bro!
I want to let the Spirit of Christ lead me in all that I say and do.
on reflection that post of mine appears to be in the wrong thread or all out of context.
i'm just really charged up on the need to include the corrective side of love, maybe my post was for someone not even posting in the thread or maybe...
i've got to learn not to type everything i think LOL!
anyways much love to all
f
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First, Christ, the Creator of the cosmos, clearly communicated hell’s irrevocable reality. In fact, He spent more time talking about hell than He did about heaven.
How casually he just slanders Christ up and down. Hank certainly knows about the translation issues with the word "Gehenna." He knows what Gehenna was and is, and He knows that there are several instances in the gospels in which Christ's words have been changed to represent something other than that of which Christ was speaking. Yet, Hank never takes an issue with it and seems to have no problem doing it himself.
As far as the whole "Christ talked more about hell than about heaven" argument - I used to believe that too, because I had always heard people like Hank spewing it out. As God began to open my eyes, I decided to look into the issue a little more, so I did a search on Biblegateway. I searched for the word "heaven" in the gospels, and I looked at every verse and excluded all the verses that said things such as "will not enter the kingdom of heaven," etc. Then I searched the word "hell," but I also included passages that spoke of "outer darkness" and the "fiery furnace,'' etc.
I don't remember the final statistics, but let me tell you that the tally was not even close. It was at least a 3-1 ratio in favor of the kingdom of heaven over "hell," and the outer darkness, fiery furnace, everlasting fire, etc.
Really, anyone who has put even a miniscule amount of deep study into the gospels will come to see that Christ spoke far more about the kingdom of heaven than He did about this fabled "hell."
It's amazing that some of these teachings are so easily proven false, and yet people still teach them, and millions more just buy right into it. But, it's all God's will. I know that, I just can't figure out why... :?
Furthermore, the concept of choice demands that we believe in hell. Without hell, there is no choice. Without choice, heaven would not be heaven; heaven would be hell. The righteous would inherit a counterfeit heaven, and the unrighteous would be incarcerated in heaven against their wills, which would be a torture worse than hell. Imagine spending a lifetime voluntarily distanced from God only to find yourself involuntarily dragged into His loving presence for all eternity.
What an illogical and warped view this is. For as much as Hank talks about "common sense" in this paper, he sure doesn't use much with this argument. So, people would be tortured more by being in "heaven" than being in "hell?" Eternity in the presence of God would be more tormenting than eternity in torment? This is just silly.
The alternative to hell would be worse than hell itself in that humans made in the image of God would be stripped of freedom and forced to worship God against their will.
Well then, I wonder what his interpretation of Philippians 2:10-11 would be. That passage is always a catch 22 for all the free-will banner wavers who insist that no one will be "forced" to worship God, and yet also insist that millions of people will burn in hell forever.
Finally, common sense regarding justice dictates that there must be a hell. Without hell, the wrongs of Hitler’s Holocaust would never be righted. Justice would be impugned if, after slaughtering six million Jews, Hitler merely died in the arms of his mistress with no eternal consequences.
According to your theology, Hank, all those Jews are right now probably wishing they were back in the midst of the Holocaust because they're now and forevermore being tormented far worse. Of corse, they'd be even more miserable if they were forced to be in God's loving presence for all eternity... :roll: But at least we know that Hitler is being tormented worse than they are. I'm sure they're happy to know that, too.
(I don't even know why I'm wasting my time with this...)
First, common sense tells us that a God of love and justice does not arbitrarily annihilate a portion of the crowning jewels of His creation. He graciously provides everyone the freedom to choose between redemption and rebellion. It would be a horrific evil to think that God would create people with freedom of choice and then annihilate them because of their choices.
Preach on, brotha! This makes perfect sense...in Hank's world.
Furthermore, common sense also leads us to the conclusion that nonexistence is not better than existence since nonexistence is nothing at all.
More precious wisdom here. In fact, if I ever happen to need any type of surgery, I think I'll just tell the docs to skip the anesthesia. I will insist to them that it is far worse for me to have no knowledge of what is going on, and it is much more merciful for me to be left awake and consciously aware of what they're doing to my body. The pain of the operation will pale in comparison to the pain of not even being aware of what's going on. That would be true torment. This is the reasoning of the bible answer man.