bible-truths.com/forums
=> Off Topic Discussions => Topic started by: mark_from_oz on June 09, 2008, 01:20:02 AM
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Anyone read this guys' book? He thinks he is one of the two prophesized "two witnesses".
There are similarities to what is taught on Bible-Truths, with the notable exception of Universal Reconciliation, and the fact that he thinks himself a prophet.
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I did some reading elsewhere and found out he runs the Church of God.
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I don't know about this man, but I seriously doubt that "there are similiratities to what is taugh on Bible-Truths". There are indeed notable expections as you point out. As Rays says, if they lie once, then don't bother to read the rest.
God bless you,
Eirik
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I have never heard of him, and two of my kids attended the official Church of God college, Lee University, in Cleveland TN. Must be a different C of G. But I have to agree w/ Eirik-
Altho when I first came to BT I used to try to find other sites and writers "just like Ray" cuz I was so afraid of being "out there in goofy doctrine land". Now, after a few years I really don't bother. Ray's teaching w/ the Bible will keep me fed for a looonnngggg time!!
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I've been visiting BT.com and emailing ray for a few years now... The similarities I reffered to were:
1. RW teaches that Compulsory Tithing is spiritually corrupt.
2. That Man has no immortal Soul.
3. That a benevolent God will not torture Billions of people for Eternity.
So in that respect there are similarities between what is taught by him and what is on BT's.com
RW fails to consider the declaration in Genisis that God will make man(kind) in His image and likeness. He also forgets that it is appointed for man to die once, not twice as he proclaims.
A Google ad from somewhere caught my attention and I followed it, it ended up on his site and I skimmed his "Free" booklet on "The End". I believe that we need to remain open-minded to the Truth from whereever it may appear, as our spirit will confirm what that the truth is. I will not just visit BT's.com alone but read all kinds of material and then examine the Bible to back up what I read.
To follow Ray blindly would be just as bad as following the Theological Churches from whence we came.
I am not suggesting that anyone here does that either, just putting my thoughts forward.
Blessings
Mark
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Mark,
Lets say Joe and I both make a batch of brownies.
Joe puts eggs in his.....so do I.
Joe uses sugar............so do I.
Joe uses fudge...........so do I.
Joe uses flour.............so do I.
Joe uses butter..........so do I.
My brownies have a special ingredient, Joe's does not. My special ingredient is a pinch of.....horse manure
Who's brownies are you going to eat?
Craig
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Much as I agree with your analogy, I'm not so sure about that.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman who needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
How are we to rightly divide the word of truth if we stick to one ingredient?
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The truth is a hard thing to come by. Do we search for a better truth, a different truth? When you find the unencumbered truth you better hang on or be tossed to and fro by every sweet sounding doctrine. Paul had truth in his teaching, how long after he left a congregation did deceit creep in? I've spent alot of time looking at other doctrines and teaching, but if you find a pinch of horse manure then you better move on lest you acquire a taste for it.
Just my opinion
Craig
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emails from Ray:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7126.0.html
Ray...Please tell me what you have to say about Ronald Weinland. He states that Him and His Wife are the 2 Witnesses God taked about in the book of Revelations. He declares the Seventh Seal was opened April 17, 2008 and we have entered 3.5 years of tribulation and at the end of 3.5 years...Jesus will come back to earth with 144,000 to reign with Christ for 1000 years. Listening to him...I'm thinking he is associated with the same church you can out of...World Wide Church of God years back. That is why I'm asking if you know him, and how you would respond to the above statements he's making in the name of God.
Thanks for your teachings,
Jim
Dear Jim: Yes, I would be happy to give you my thoughts on Ronald Weinland's ministry and prophecies. In fact, I believe I can sum it all up very nicely in just three words: What a CROCK!
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7097.0.html
Mr Smith I'm reading a book called 2008 God's final witness by Ronald Weinland. I believe he's connected with the Armstrong's. Any way In this book this man claims to be one of the two end time witness. On page 16 The next step. He says "it is now with boldness and confidence and great clarity that I give to you what God has given to me. I am to announce, through God's direct revelation, that I am one of those two witnesses. The other witness will be revealed to the world during the time of the great tribulation, within the final three and one half yrs.of mans era. Is this possible, can this man be one of Gods last two witnesses? He also says that the 7th seal is being opening right now. In fact this man says we will know he is for real, because 08 will be the end of this age. if it doesn't happen we will know he's a false prophet. Anyways is this something we should we be worrying about or not.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Dear Darren: Not only is this something that we should not be "worrying about," it is something we should not be reading about, or thinking about, or even giving a passing glance about. I am just amazed at the amount of this over-the-top grand-standing NONSENSE that people promote in their insatiable lust for praise, recognition, and worship. I sure hope we have a giant book-burning when Jesus establishes His Kingdom on this earth.
God be with you,
Ray
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I was alone for 15 years and searched everywhere for others who knew truth. I drove hundreds of miles to visit places when I heard something on the radio that sounded "similar". It usually took about 5 minutes to catch a lie and I ran fast and didn't look back. Our shepherd doesn't lie. When I found BT I was a sceptic. I was disappointed so many times that I was not going to allow myself to be disappointed again. I came in looking for the lie. I looked hard, but I couldn't find one. Ray proves everything he teaches with thousands of scripture. I am not saying there aren't others out there who may be teaching truth, but I haven't found anyone yet. I don't step over lies to listen to the voice of a stranger.
John 10
1"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. 3The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice." 6Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them.
John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
http://bible-truths.com/student.htm
I quote between one and two THOUSAND Scriptures on my web-site
First of all, I don't have "followers." I do, however, have a large pile of e-mails sent by people thanking me for opening up their understanding of the Scriptures for the first time in their church-going lives. For once in their lives they don't have to agonize over whether Aunt Martha, daughter Crystal, or Grandpa Jones are frying in some fabled eternal hellhole of fire. And although I am a priest in training (I Peter 2:9), I am not a prophet.
The truth is available. I am not the first or only to see and understand it.
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Excellent posts!! There we have it!!
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Mark,
Lets say Joe and I both make a batch of brownies.
Joe puts eggs in his.....so do I.
Joe uses sugar............so do I.
Joe uses fudge...........so do I.
Joe uses flour.............so do I.
Joe uses butter..........so do I.
My brownies have a special ingredient, Joe's does not. My special ingredient is a pinch of.....horse manure
Who's brownies are you going to eat?
Craig
Craig, If I knew what each of the batch of brownies contained I wouldn't need to eats yours. The point of visiting other sites that have similar (or even opposing) views is to taste them. So, to follow your analogy, if I did not know what each contained I would taste both. Though my tongue would be subjective in its appraisal, my spirit would hopefully not be.
1Thes 5:21 "Test all things, hold fast the good."
I believe Ray has a great understanding of the Word, provided to Him by God. Ray has not yet expounded on all topics, I may be researching a topic that he has not covered and stumble upon someone else's viewpoint on the scriptures take on the matter. Having now a greater foundational understanding of the Word that I once did, I will be a lot further along in rightly dividing the words being proclaimed by others.
One of my core principles in rightly dividing the Word is: Scripture never contradicts, only sometimes appears to. AND Scripture will always witness itself. Another principle is: When a scripture is quoted, go see if that is what is ACTUALLY said.
Blessings
Mark.
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I'm sold. No wait, I'm bought with a price.
Rightly dividing is sorted for me.
And yes, M.G. is right. The bible says the sheep run away from a strangers voice. And in my understanding of English and Scripture, stranger's voice could be a voice that is strange from Jesus' voice.
My suggestion to you Mark is maybe read the bible (since everything we need to know is in there) and wherever you stumble, ask in the forum, the mods or Ray directly. The good thing about this approach is, as Paul always said, Ray laid the foundation. Somebody else might put the wrong mortar or wrong size bricks on that foundation.
Hope you realize I'm not contesting your belief.
All Glory to Him
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The truth is a hard thing to come by. Do we search for a better truth, a different truth? When you find the unencumbered truth you better hang on or be tossed to and fro by every sweet sounding doctrine. Paul had truth in his teaching, how long after he left a congregation did deceit creep in? I've spent alot of time looking at other doctrines and teaching, but if you find a pinch of horse manure then you better move on lest you acquire a taste for it.
Just my opinion
Craig
Hi! Craig
Well said brother, I liked the horse manure bit it tasted ???????????
I have been to various sites and judged them on Jesus' advice: “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits." (Matt.7:19,20)
Before Ray I tried SDR and the fruit was bad, they believed and practiced Saturday Sabbath observance.
Then I tried Mike Vinson and found the fruit very similar but grossly lacking in all major points. Going through his material I noticed a gross neglect in his show of respect for his Creator God. By that I mean his use of capitalization in his writings which to me was disgraceful.
Then I dropped on Ray's teachings by accident and downloaded a few of his writings and found a profound difference in his meticulous display of respect, obedience, humility, reverence and accuracy in relation to the Scriptures. I challenge anyone on this forum or outside to download a single paper authored by Ray to find a single reference to his Creator or the Word of God the Scriptures where this is left neglected. This then to me is the genuine fruit, the good fruit which is edible and beneficial.
The rest of the sites, well unless they match up to this criteria are destined for the garbage bin and those that do are worth following. But having said that, once you have the good fruit in one basket why be greedy and look in your neighbours basket for some of his because you'll only end up with too much, a double helping.
When you have the one that the Spirit in you says "That's it" be content and stick with it. He is always right, that inner HELPER because that's what His job is. I don't look anywhere else now, I'm content.
Just my opinion.
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk165/Roy87monis/lovefaithld7.gif)
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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I agree with you Mark.
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The truth is a hard thing to come by. Do we search for a better truth, a different truth? When you find the unencumbered truth you better hang on or be tossed to and fro by every sweet sounding doctrine. Paul had truth in his teaching, how long after he left a congregation did deceit creep in? I've spent alot of time looking at other doctrines and teaching, but if you find a pinch of horse manure then you better move on lest you acquire a taste for it.
Just my opinion
Craig
You got that right! BTDT.
It took me a long time to reach this truth. Years. I am embarassed to say what I searched for and read, looking for this truth. Some of it was really off-the-wall stuff, trying to explain how God could "damn" anyone to "eternal hell".
If truth was a snake, it would have bit me.
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I just want to say in concluding this thread that by my original post I was simply asking whether anyone else had read RW's book. It all went pear-shaped from there.
I was curious to see if others had seen the nonsense about him being one of the two witnesses. If I had found people to discuss it with intelligently I may have even asked about what their thoughts were on the similarities between RW, Ray, and the new Church of God. Clearly that would be taboo.
I was not trying to lead sheep astray or any such thing.
It would appear that I need to be careful in what I post. Not everyone is objective in their search for God's Truth. I may get in trouble for saying this, so be it...
Ray has a wonderfully gifted grasp of the Word of God, but you need to be careful not to regard Ray as the sole Oracle of God's Truth. Some here, I would say, successfully broke free of the single-mindedness of the Churches they were from only to adopt it again in blindly following Ray's teaching.
Follow Rays' Teaching in every area if you feel that is the right path, but do it while maintaining your objectivity and always, always go back to the Bible for verification.
This may, or may not be my last post here... we'll see.
Still smilin' at you all. :)
Mark
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Follow Rays' Teaching in every area if you feel that is the right path, but do it while maintaining your objectivity and always, always go back to the Bible for verification.
Absolutely, and who would argue that advice. I don't know of any of the "old timers" here who do not follow this advice. I'm not picking on you Mark, but I would like to have a nickel every time someone posts this.
This forum is moderated in such a way as to not veer off into the land of speculations, half truth and opinions. Sometimes we are successful and sometimes not.
I would suggest we all look over the 3 posts in the forum rules section, its good to remind ourselves of them and realize the moderators and members are not out to squash anyones search for God.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4558.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3614.0.html
Craig
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Ray has a wonderfully gifted grasp of the Word of God, but you need to be careful not to regard Ray as the sole Oracle of God's Truth. Some here, I would say, successfully broke free of the single-mindedness of the Churches they were from only to adopt it again in blindly following Ray's teaching.
Follow Rays' Teaching in every area if you feel that is the right path, but do it while maintaining your objectivity and always, always go back to the Bible for verification.
Hi Mark,
You are not the first to offer this admonition, let me say that I doubt you will find anyone here (Ray and the moderators included) that believe Ray is "the sole Oracle of God's Truth" but what this Forum is all about is for those who have found his articles to be worthy of discussion to have a peaceful place to meet and share ideas and questions in regard to the thousands of pages on Bible truths.
If we want to debate every doctrine under the sun we are all able to do just that in the thousands of "free for all" debating Forums available online, there are more than a few who are members in good standing here who also seek to explore, argue, debate new age or traditional religious topics or just want to look at alternative interpretations, there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever. We just do not desire this Forum to be unfocused, disjointed or as a platform for would be teachers.
Everyone here is encouraged to do independant study of the Scriptures as well as verifying what Ray writes with your bible close at hand, if an error is found to be contained in any of the articles it is our obligation to present them and ask for clarification or retraction.
Peace,
Joe
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Yes, Mark I read This book your speaking of. I found this Guy to be out there to say the least. I beleive he said 08 would be the year that this age would come to an end. Also that the 7th seal has been open. Well the yr. is not over with yet. But as the Bible says we will know if this guy is from God by the fruit he bears. If the age ends then we will know he was speaking the truth. If not we will know he just one in a long line of false prophets. btw I agree we should not follow Ray blindley but check out whatever he teaches in the Bible through scripture. Then make sure that scripture has another scripture backing the 1st one up. I know it's easyer said than done. If I'm not mistaken, Ray says don't take his word, check it out ourselves.
Darren
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Yes, Mark I read This book your speaking of. I found this Guy to be out there to say the least. I beleive he said 08 would be the year that this age would come to an end. Also that the 7th seal has been open. Well the yr. is not over with yet. But as the Bible says we will know if this guy is from God by the fruit he bears. If the age ends then we will know he was speaking the truth. If not we will know he just one in a long line of false prophets.
Darren
Hi Darren, Thank You! This is the sort of reply I was looking for originally. :) Almost my thoughts exactly, I was skeptical of his book too, and thought to myself "time will tell I guess".
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No doubt Mark, I personaly beleive this man to be a false prophet. Mine you this is just my take. Anyways If you look back on the 1st page of this thread you will see where I emailed Ray on this matter, just to see what he had to say. You probably guessed he didn't think much of this guy. I was wondering myself why would one of the end time witnesses write a book in order to tell the world about his news. Then I thought maby this could be one way to get a message across to the masses. Then there's television. Let me say again, I beleive this guy to be a false prophet. But it does bring to mind who will be the 2 witnesses and how will we know that they are the ones. Will they do wonders? will it be on television so the world can see. Or is this symbloic and not to be taken litaral? The book of revelation is symbloic and it speaks of spiritual matters and not physical matters. So one has to ask, or they really 2 witnesses or is it a metaphore for some spiritusl meaning. From what I gather that is what the book of revelation is a revelation of spiritual matters. Then again I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first or the last time.
Thanks Darren
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Hello Darren
I'm very very young and that might make me out to be gullible, naive, etc. But as we all know, revelations is the Revelation of Jesus. Please read for yourself the purpose of the two witnesses.
Revelation 11
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."
4 These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks, standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth and devoureth their enemies; and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy, and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds, and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and a half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another, because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 But after three days and a half, the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fellupon them that saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from Heaven, saying unto them, "Come up hither!" And they ascended up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies beheld them
Also, bear in mind what Jesus said about things like "08 would be the year that this age would come to an end"...
Matthew 24
36 But of that day and hour, knoweth no man, no, not the angels of Heaven, but My Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark
39 and knew not until the flood came and took them all away, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.
As quoted from the second link that Craig put up, "As it states in the rules: This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com. " I think our fellow-shipping will work if first we are of like mind. As we learned from bible-truths.com, Revelations is in symbols. Verse 8 from above says "And their dead bodies [the two witnesses] shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." That is both spiritual and symbolic. We have to at least agree on that for us to be able to build each other up.
I hope you understand better what Craig and Joe are saying.
All Glory to Him
BTW, I'm still learning about the symbols so I wont be able to explain them at this stage. However, I know for sure that people who say they are the two witnesses ought to be able to at least understand how fire will proceed out of their mouth and devour their enemies, how they are to shut heaven that it doesnt rain, how they are to turn waters to blood and smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
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I'm sold. No wait, I'm bought with a price.
Rightly dividing is sorted for me.
And yes, M.G. is right. The bible says the sheep run away from a strangers voice. And in my understanding of English and Scripture, stranger's voice could be a voice that is strange from Jesus' voice.
My suggestion to you Mark is maybe read the bible (since everything we need to know is in there) and wherever you stumble, ask in the forum, the mods or Ray directly. The good thing about this approach is, as Paul always said, Ray laid the foundation. Somebody else might put the wrong mortar or wrong size bricks on that foundation.
Hope you realize I'm not contesting your belief.
All Glory to Him
Hi! Kweli
Correction please! Jesus Christ laid the foundation, Ray like Paul is building on it and we are the helping workers building it up. Would you not say that Jesus not Paul or Ray is the Rock on which the foundation stone was laid, the Chief Corner Stone?.
Forgive me if I'm wrong.
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk165/Roy87monis/PrayerAndHugsAngel.gif)
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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Hi Darren,
Or is this symbloic and not to be taken litaral? The book of revelation is symbloic and it speaks of spiritual matters and not physical matters. So one has to ask, or they really 2 witnesses or is it a metaphore for some spiritusl meaning. From what I gather that is what the book of revelation is a revelation of spiritual matters.
http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html --------------------
LITERAL OR SYMBOLIC?
In many cases it is not difficult to determine whether a verse is literal or not. But, since we use figures of speech so often we tend to forget that much of what we say daily is not literally true. Many of us would hardly be able to carry on a conversation if we had to drop out of our vocabulary every word and every phrase we speak that is NOT LITERALLY TRUE. The English language, as well as all other languages, is just filled with symbolic and metaphorical phrases.
The first eleven verses of Chapter one in Revelation are an introduction regarding where, how, and what John is going to record for us. Much of this introduction can be taken literally, however, not all. Beginning with verse twelve, we are confronted with one symbol after another for the remainder of the entire twenty-two-chapter-book.
Everything written in Revelation is true, but most is not literally true.
The fact is there are many many truths in the Bible that are not literally true.
Jesus "said" that the bread He gave His disciples at the Lord’s supper was His body. Yet, Jesus Himself explains in other places that this was not literally true. He gave them literal bread, and not His literal physical flesh. What that bread represented, and symbolized, was indeed, His body--but not his physical body.
Jesus said that the words that he spoke were SPIRIT (John 6:63). Jesus Christ changes not. His words are STILL spirit and they certainly were spirit when John wrote the words of Christ regarding His unveiling or revelation. Just as we physically feed on physical bread for PHYSICAL LIFE, thus also we spiritually feed on Jesus Christ’s spiritual body for SPIRITUAL LIFE.
Understand this! Some think that by accepting the Scriptures as they are given (in the case of Revelation that means AS SYMBOLS), that somehow this "spiritualizes away" the teaching. What? It is the "spiritual" aspect of these symbols that IS THE REAL THING; THE REAL UNDERSTANDING! Physical things "pass away" whereas spiritual things are eternal! The very FACT that this book is written in "symbols" is proof positive that the understanding of them is SPIRITUAL and not physical or literal.
Symbols, metaphors, and parables ARE NEVER LITERALLY TRUE! But they powerfully demonstrate SPIRITUAL TRUTHS!
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So one has to ask, or they really 2 witnesses or is it a metaphore for some spiritusl meaning.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses 3144, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
G3144 martus - a witness (literally [judicially] or figuratively [generally]); by analogy a “martyr”: - martyr, record, witness.
Martyr - One who, by his death, bears witness to the truth of the gospel.
Do you see the connection here? These "two witnesses" are those put to death (spiritually). And it says in verse 3 "they shall prophesy," which is speaking under inspiration. And what is "clothed in sackcloth" a sign of?
Mat 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
I know this may be confusing, but I'm trying to look at what this verse means in the Scripture and what the "two witnesses" are; those who have repented and have been put to death while in the flesh and speak under inspiration of the Holy Spirit... the Elect.
Then you have the next verse that further brings understanding on this.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
Zec 4:11 Then I answered and said to Him, "What are these two olive trees--at the right of the lampstand and at its left?"
v. 12 And I further answered and said to Him, "What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?"
v. 13 Then He answered me and said, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."
v. 14 So He said, "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth."
So who are these "anointed ones."
2Co 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
You can see that Paul speakes to the believers as "anointed" of God.
I hope this is helpful. As the book of Revelation is a book of symbols and a lot of times these symbols have more than one meaning. But the meanings can be found, you just have to dig it out of the Scriptures.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanks for that Kat. Good tools there to help with the digging
Hello Roy
There's no way you could be wrong about that. If I dispute then I'd be denying Jesus. Here's how I was looking at it...
Romans 15
20 Yea, so have I striven to preach the Gospel not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation;
21 but as it is written: "To whom He was not spoken of, they shall see; and they that have not heard shall understand [that's us]."
1 Corinthians 3
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For no man can lay another foundation than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [again, you are right]
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble,
13 every man's work shall be made manifest; for the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire, and the fire shall test every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereon, he shall receive a reward.
Ephesians 2
20 Ye are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,
21 in whom all the building, fitly framed together, groweth unto a holy temple in the Lord,
22 in Whom ye also are built together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.
I'm in agreement, just looking at it also from a perspective of a teacher laying a foundation, but not taking away from the foundation of Jesus.
All Glory To Him
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Ok first of all let me just say I know about the book of revelation. I know about the 2 witnesses I know about these things. I was making a point about symbolism's. I have been studying the bible for over 25 yrs now and I;m still learning. That's not to say I don't know some things. Through the yrs the Lord has shown me much. I study and meditate and read and reread the Bible. Sometimes I have to take a break or I can get obsess. When I ask questions,sometimes the Lord has given me the ansewers,but I'm trying to get a conversation started. I'm trying to hear what you think or believe. So please don't take me for some young up start in the word of God. Yet I am a young up start in the teaching of Ray. Witch I thoroughly enjoy reading and learning. Once again I know that it is the revelation of Jesus Christ. Yes Kat when you said the first eleven verses in chapter one of revelation is an introduction, much of this introduction can be taken literally, but not all. Then the remainder of the book are filled with symbolisms. That is all I was trying to say. It it sometimes difficult to separate the two (literal and symbols). BTW Kweli I never said I believe that the age will end in 08. If you read what I said, it is about a certain guy who said this. I know what our Lord has said about the end time that no one knows the hour or day that this will happen except the Father. One more thing what does me asking questions about the 2 witnesses or about symbolisms have to do with not being like-minded or fellowshipping? Kweli anybody can copy a whole lot of scripture to make your points, But I preferred to write what I am thinking at the time of my questions and ansewers. This is why sometimes I come across as being different. I believe in what Ray teaches and What the Lord has shown me through HIS word.
Darren
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Hi Darren,
I sorry you took what I posted to you, as I was saying you didn't know things or that you were young. I was really just trying to help with the questions you had, by showing Scripture that I thought were relevant to that subject.
I try not to talk down to anybody here or say anything that might offend. But I guess it's the same old thing with this means of communication, if doesn't always transfer in the post the way we are trying to convey it.
Please understand that I am learning these things right along with the rest of you and I make no claims to having more understanding than most here.
I bring up things that Ray has posted at his site, to point people to what he has taught on a subject. That section from Ray's paper I posted was concerning the symbolism in Rev., which you were questioning. Sometimes I forget things that ray has already said, so I bring these back up, so we can review it, not saying you didn't already read this.
These conversations are good and help us see the different perspectives people have and I think we can learn a great deal from one another. But since this is the means we have to fellowship here, we will just have to keep trying to use it with consideration and respect for one another. And I hope this helps you see I certainly meant no disrespect to you in my post :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Yes, Mark I read This book your speaking of. I found this Guy to be out there to say the least. I beleive he said 08 would be the year that this age would come to an end. Also that the 7th seal has been open. Well the yr. is not over with yet. But as the Bible says we will know if this guy is from God by the fruit he bears. If the age ends then we will know he was speaking the truth. If not we will know he just one in a long line of false prophets. btw I agree we should not follow Ray blindley but check out whatever he teaches in the Bible through scripture. Then make sure that scripture has another scripture backing the 1st one up. I know it's easyer said than done. If I'm not mistaken, Ray says don't take his word, check it out ourselves.
Darren
Question:
Why would someone bother selling a book if they really believe that the present age would end this year? Does he have to pay off some bills before Christ returns? I don't claim to know whether money is needed in the next age or not but regardless, wouldn't giving the books away for free give one much needed bonus points with the Lord? This man cannot possibly believe such a thing!!
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Yes I agree with everything you said. But I really think he beleives that he is one of the two witnesses. I did read the book, for curiosity had gotten the better of me. I must say satan has deceived this man. This is just my belief. I have to admit it was quite thought out. But as I said before we will tell if this man is what he says he is by the fruit he bears.
Darren
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NO Kat, it was not you whom I was annoyed with. It was someone else. When my words get turn around and it makes me look like I didn't do my research before I posted,as in the book of revelation witch I have read and studied for yrs. Like I said I knew the ansewer to the question I ask about the two witnesses. Being symbolic or literal. I wanted to hear other people's thoughts on the subject. I like to engage in conversation about deep meaning things. I get very tired of the PC conversation that I have to engage at work. The thin line some of us have to walk when speaking about certain subjects. Here at this site I feel that I can talk openly and carry on a conversation with others who are LIKE-MINDED. About thing of importance. So please forgive me if I made you think I was speaking of you. I was not. I always enjoy your threads. I also enjoy it when you comment on my subjects. You bring lots of wisdom to the board.
Darren
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Hello Darren
Please forgive me if I came across that way. The last thing I want is to step on anybody's toes. I'm young. A majority of the people here are old enough to be my parents. So I wish not to come through as being disrespectful.
BTW Kweli I never said I believe that the age will end in 08. If you read what I said, it is about a certain guy who said this. I know what our Lord has said about the end time that no one knows the hour or day that this will happen except the Father.
I know you didnt say that. I was trying to point out that what this person is saying goes against what we know and believe. I also quoted the verses on what the two witnesses are to do in their appointed age and tried to hint that if this guy is one of them then he should understand what his role is before the end of time. For me, if he doesnt know that no one knows the final hour, he's not worth the trouble.
One more thing what does me asking questions about the 2 witnesses or about symbolisms have to do with not being like-minded or fellowshipping?
I'm fairly new here. What I've noticed a lot here are disputes over what individuals believe. I believe Craig and Joe highlighted that nobody is restricted on their private studies/research. But for us here as a union, we have to have "common grounds". A common understanding. Whether he is really one of the two or not is probably not up to us to say. But the common grounds is, nobody knows the final hour. And even if the book was literal, the two witnesses do not come to tell the world that this age will end. Infact, their time ends before the end. I believe that is what we have come to understand here at BT.
Also, I speak for myself here, the purpose of my postings was more to do away with digging into somebody else's ''ideas'. I was not clear on something in the beginning but I understand that we have to hold on to common truth. Yes we may discuss other things but there must be common truth. I used to love listening to sermons by TD Jakes because he just know the Word. But I've taken a step back to really hear what he says. On the surface, it's pure unadulterated Scripture, but the things he just drops in between are poisonous. And I almost believed them because they where mixed with a lot of the Word. I just thought I'd bring it to light. I didnt understand why Ray would say truth and lies are a dangerous combination until I saw what that did to my understanding.
Again I apologize for the way I came across to you. I will try to interrogate my comments before I post them. You are about 25 years ahead of me in studying the bible so I'm only just learning how to study.
Please forgive me :-[
All Glory to Him
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Thanks for that Kat. Good tools there to help with the digging
Hello Roy
There's no way you could be wrong about that. If I dispute then I'd be denying Jesus. Here's how I was looking at it...
Romans 15
20 Yea, so have I striven to preach the Gospel not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation;
21 but as it is written: "To whom He was not spoken of, they shall see; and they that have not heard shall understand [that's us]."
1 Corinthians 3
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For no man can lay another foundation than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [again, you are right]
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble,
13 every man's work shall be made manifest; for the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire, and the fire shall test every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereon, he shall receive a reward.
Ephesians 2
20 Ye are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,
21 in whom all the building, fitly framed together, groweth unto a holy temple in the Lord,
22 in Whom ye also are built together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.
I'm in agreement, just looking at it also from a perspective of a teacher laying a foundation, but not taking away from the foundation of Jesus.
All Glory To Him
Hello! Kweli
I'm sorry brother, I stand corrected. I read your post all wrong. You didn't say that Paul was the foundation stone but as master builders he and the apostles laid the foundation stone; a big, big difference. Stupid me, it couldn't lay itself now could it? With God all is possible I know but it wasn't that way here.
Thank you brother.
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk165/Roy87monis/thcatsorry.gif)
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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There's no need for forgiveness. I 'm the one that's sorry. I had a very rough day and when I read your post I took it the wrong way. There are still alot of things I need to work on when it comes to expressing my thoughts.
Darren