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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Sozo on September 04, 2008, 11:35:18 PM
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Has Ray addressed the following passages before? I have been unable to find it if he has.
Numbers 31:7-18
"They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."
Obviously these women were taken against their will. This would have been murder, kidnapping and rape. The whole scenario could possibly even be labeled as genocide.
Maybe I'm jumping the gun by asking about this before I have spent much time studying it. I guess I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction on these passages. Any insight would be helpful.
Thanks
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Where does it say anything about rape?
Murder? I dont see removing a proven threat as murder. It's not just semantics either. These weren't innocent people. The innocent people were spared. Does the fact that women were killed bother you? Read it again and see what they did.
Women want(ed) equality? Then they can be treated as equals.
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But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people.
Hi Sozo,
We must not look at the OT as merely some history of ancient days, in fact it is at least as much a prophecy/shadow/type of what is to come in a spiritual sense, this very well may be speaking in physical terms the spiritual slaying that transpires in the LOF.
Who are/were these women?
These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people.
Could they also be?
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Some food for thought......
Peace,
Joe
P.S. Remember the entire bible is a parable. ;)
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Where does it say anything about rape?
Murder? I dont see removing a proven threat as murder. It's not just semantics either. These weren't innocent people. The innocent people were spared. Does the fact that women were killed bother you? Read it again and see what they did.
Women want(ed) equality? Then they can be treated as equals.
Your right. It says nothing about rape. However, if a woman is taken and forced to become your wife, then doesn't it stand to reason that the woman would also be forced to have sex? Wouldn't that be rape?
You said removing a threat is not murder. According to these passages the threat was already removed. The only reason some of the women were killed is because they were not virgins. So there was no threat. Would this not be considered murder?
I'm not trying to start an argument with anyone on this. I'm just looking for a little insight.
Thanks,
Jason
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We must not look at the OT as merely some history of ancient days, in fact it is at least as much a prophecy/shadow/type of what is to come in a spiritual sense, this very well may be speaking in physical terms the spiritual slaying that transpires in the LOF.
Who are/were these women?
These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people.
Could they also be?
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Some food for thought......
Peace,
Joe
P.S. Remember the entire bible is a parable. ;)
So are you saying that this was not an actual event that took place? Are you suggesting that it is in fact, just a parable?
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Hi Jason,
One way I try to look at death that must come to all in this world, sometimes the way it happens is terrible, but it's part of the "experience of evil" (Ecc 1:13) that we all must go through, as we all will die. So all those people died... would it have been better for them to continue in their pagan ways in this world? God did give them physical life and they will be in the resurrection of the dead and be brought to salvation. That is ultimately what it's all about, not having long years in this world.
Also as Joe says those things that happened in the OT are shadows of spiritual things. As we are to be growing in knowledge and becoming more spiritual minded, but when you began to focus to much on physical/temporary things what happens?
Mat 14:28 And Peter answered Him and said, LORD, if it is You, tell me to come to You on the water.
v. 29 And He said, Come. And when Peter had come down out of the boat, he walked on the water to go to Jesus.
v. 30 But seeing that the wind was strong, he was afraid. And beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me!
v. 31 And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him; and said to him, Little-faith! Why did you doubt?
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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This would have been murder, kidnapping and rape. The whole scenario could possibly even be labeled as genocide.
Hi Sozo,
I'm trying to understand and help you understand... why is this instance of murder, kidnapping, and rape any different to you than any other instance of murder, kidnapping, and rape that has ever taken place in God's world... where he is all in all?
Bobby
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I agree with Joe Kat and Flagron you have to read these scriptures spiritually, they were real events recorded because of significant truths in them.
To understand Num 31 you also have to go back to Num 25 to see the spiriual crime.
It is were Phineus took a javelin and killed a couple : Simeon (one who obey God) and the woman Corbi (liar), she was one of the women in this culture that were doing this and they were corrupting the covenant. There was a major plague laid on Israel.
Phineus (the high priest) in his zeal was able to divert the wrath of God and he was commended and approved by God because he represents the future priests who will lead the church through the LOF and also divert a plague.
The earth is corrupt and does this violence all the time in real life , but in the heavenly, those who should die, will be shown mercy but their actions will be judged and they will be made righteous.
The medianits were under grace (five ) but now the sons of their king were killed as well as Balam the son of Beor.
Midian means Judgement, Balaam the ancient of the people; the destruction of the people Beor the burning. The five sons names mean Evimeans I unjust Rekem means friendship Zur rmeans rock, Hur (name of 4 Israelites (one husband to Mirium) and one Midianite, Hur means ( liberty, whiteness whole) and Reba means fourth (symbolic of earthy) Thes names are all auspicious.
God is Spirit and his actions are too.
Anyway this is the way I see this passage
beloved
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Hi Sozo,
I'm trying to understand and help you understand... why is this instance of murder, kidnapping, and rape any different to you than any other instance of murder, kidnapping, and rape that has ever taken place in God's world... where he is all in all?
Bobby
Good question Bobby. I think this one is different as are a few others such as the battle of Jericho for the following reasons: Before these things took place, God had not to long ago given his people commandments that they should not murder, steal, commit adultery, etc. And then just a few years later, these passages such as the battle of Jericho found in Joshua say that God commanded them to go in and kill every thing that breathed.
Now fast forward a few thousand years to today. Why couldn't someone justify their religious genocide by saying God told them to do it? Wouldn't we all cry out that they are doing wrong and show them God's law that it is wrong to do these atrocities and show them where Jesus said to love your neighbor? Would they then be wrong by showing us these passages as justification for their actions?
Don't misunderstand me. I completely understand that God has created evil and uses it for a purpose. I understand what Kat has said in her post above. I understand that we all experience evil and that we all die. So let me get to the point and tell you the main thoughts I am having on all of this.
Here they are:
Are these stories actual historical events that took place?
If no and they are parables, how can we show that they are parables.
If yes, did God actually command his people to do this or is it possible that they did it and justified there actions by saying God told them to do it?
If God commanded it then how do we reconcile this with his previous commands?
If they used God to justify this, then how can the original scriptures be infallible?
Am I thinking too much? Am I thinking from a completely carnal point of view?
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Several of you have said that this is a parable or that we need to understand it from a spiritual POV.
We must not look at the OT as merely some history of ancient days, in fact it is at least as much a prophecy/shadow/type of what is to come in a spiritual sense, this very well may be speaking in physical terms the spiritual slaying that transpires in the LOF.
..........
P.S. Remember the entire bible is a parable. ;)
Also as Joe says those things that happened in the OT are shadows of spiritual things. As we are to be growing in knowledge and becoming more spiritual minded......
FACT ::It is a parable...... thinking leterally of rape, murder,,, ect., in any sense in the Gosple, will/can only bring out the sadistic nature of the BEAST.
Is the beast in me showing his ugly head by questioning this?
I agree with Joe Kat and Flagron you have to read these scriptures spiritually, they were real events recorded because of significant truths in them.
I understand that we must have a spiritual understanding. If not, we will never understand the message. However, the questions that I keep having are the ones I posted in my reply above.
Are these stories actual historical events that took place?
If no and they are parables (as some of you have suggested), how can we show that they are parables.
If yes, did God actually command his people to do this or is it possible that they did it and justified there actions by saying God told them to do it?
If God commanded it then how do we reconcile this with his previous commands?
If they used God to justify this, then how can the original scriptures be infallible?
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If yes, did God actually command his people to do this or is it possible that they did it and justified there actions by saying God told them to do it?
If God commanded it then how do we reconcile this with his previous commands?
If they used God to justify this, then how can the original scriptures be infallible?
Am I thinking too much? Am I thinking from a completely carnal
Sorry Sozo I misunderstood your question, because I didn't exactly know what your asking.
During the OT God spoke to and through men, Today it is the spirit of God that comes into each of us and he speaks to us eachand leads us to Truth...it will be spiritual Truth and not carnal.
Venegenge is God's alone...when things happen now most are from the Father of lies, The spirit of truth says ALL men will be saved...and we know that we are in Christ if we love our brethern (believers especially and others because they will be)
No one today especiall believers can justify acting carnally,
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
God has not changed but now like Abraham He lets those that obey Him see what He is was really doing and what He will do in the future.
beloved
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Hi Jason,
Here is an e-mail that Ray gives an answer to this subject.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6893.0.html -----
COMMENT: You do not under the 6th commandment. It does not say "Thou shalt not KILL" in the Hebrew manuscripts. It says, "Thou shalt not MURDER." Big big difference. Soldiers kill in war, they do not murder. Murder is the illegal killing of someone. When God told the Israelite to kill all of the pagans which were committing every conceivable kind of crime including burning the little children in fire, He was not telling them to commit sin. It was not a sin to kill these people at God's command, because they were not "murdering" them which would have been breaking God's commandment and which then would have been a contradiction.
Maybe cool off a big and starting at the top of my home page by reading my first paper: 'YOU FOOLS! YOU HYPOCRITES! YOU FOOLS!" You will learn more in one hour than in four years of Christian seminary.
God be with you,
Ray
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Good point Kat I assumed everyone knew the difference between kill and murder from Ray's writings.
Glad you were quick to bring up the link to his writings to read.
But even killing is not even permissible, not in the physical or even in the mind, such a thing as to call a person Raca is condemmed.
Question to kat : Ray index of subjects have you updated them with the emails that have since come in ? I know it is a daunting task to even to have done the original one.
beloved
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I do understand the difference between killing and murder. However, what I don't understand is how the following is considered killing and not murder:
"Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."
Why would the virgin girls not be held to the same standard as the boys and the women who were not virgins? After all, were they not also among the pagans that committed these acts for which God was bringing about their destruction?
According to these passages, the one and only reason that they were allowed to live is because they were virgins. So whether one of these virgins sacrificed a child in the fire or worshiped another god had nothing to do with whether they lived or died.
So did God command Israel to let them live because they were virgins (regardless of whether or not they were partaking in the pagan atrocities) or did Israel take these spoils of war for their on pleasure and then use God to justify their actions?
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I noticed that in reading this it is Moses who Say's:
But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves
It does not say at this part that it was God's command, but just Moses.
Was Moses above going beyond God's comand?
This is an honest question, I would also like to understand?
Brenda
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This is getting a little wider in scope now.
lThe Boy is a Midian and when he grows up would contaminate the physical females who were in the covenant.
Jesus is awaiting his spiritual bride (made up of males and females. Jesus is the spiritual male, He too died physically and when resurrected He was then eligible to remarry israel whom He divorced. The gentiles then could be taken back into the fold.
The physical women who were not virgins
Lev 21:7 They shall not take a wife that is a whore, or profane; neither shall they take a woman put away from her husband: for he is holy unto his God.
Now to the Virgins remember that they too had to be purified. They were sexually pure but not clean
(Deu 21:10) When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,
(Deu 21:11) And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;
(Deu 21:12) Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; (Her glory was removed as well as her beast portion the nails pared and also removed)
(Deu 21:13) And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
There is a governmental act on the spiritual level that will always be maintained in the physical. The nation of Israel was seen as a woman
Many women died in child birth in the past and if they had "issue or bleeding disorder' would have been unclean there was always a shortage of wome in many cultures. Even the american Indians in the USAs took young women into their tribes.
Men and women have different spiritual meanings in scriptures,
In the new testament They were told to protect the widows and fatherless.
The widow is spiritually clean, the death freed her from her husband, the fatherless encompass all who no longer as seen as being children of God but as children of satan. Both need to be protected in the physical and in the spiritual.
David could marry Abigail after the death of Naman and Bathsheba after the death of urizah. These marriages are highly significant in the spiritually.
beloved
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I am so sorry Roger, I did not do a spellcheck and messed up your name. Flagron how funny... ;D
You are certainly right though these OT things are quite complex. Sometimes, you have to read them in context of the OT and then see through the new eyes of the NT to see what is going on.
Christ came to fulfill the OT
beloved.
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I have nothing to teach here, but hopefully a 'perspective' that won't muddy the waters too much.
This is obviously a startling verse to run across, but it's part of a larger story even in the facts presented. To my eyes, there is frustration in Moses that the original plan had not been carried out. What was the original plan? Who made it? Did Moses himself compromise the plan? What, if any, were the ramifications of that? I don't know the answers, I just know if I was looking, there would be things preceding and following these verses that I'd want to be looking into to more fully understand in the natural, historical message.
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Sozo, I’ll take a stab at answering your questions, if I may.
You ask, Are these stories actual historical events that took place?
Yes, they are. Though I can understand where there could be some confusion regarding this word ‘parable,’ especially when many people on the forum are reiterating the whole Bible is a parable, and then from Ray’s paper on Lazarus and the Rich Man, he writes this:
Jesus spoke in parables throughout His whole ministry. In Matthew chapter 13, we are given seven different parables. No parable is literal or historical. The second we make a parable literal, it ceases to be a parable. Jesus spoke ONLY in parables (not true life or historical stories) among the masses of people who followed Him wherever He went.
I’m not trying to cause dissension in the ranks, but perhaps referring to the Scriptures as parables, especially in light of what Ray has written in the above quotation, is not the best way to describe the historical events recorded. I prefer to use a longer explanation myself: They are actual historical events that God planned and brought to fruition in order to provide examples to us of moral and spiritual truths. To each his own. :)
You ask, did God actually command his people to do this?
If by ‘this,’ you mean the killing of the Midianites, yes He did.
Num 25:16ff The LORD said to Moses, “Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them, because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor.”
Though there are commands given by God that could be argued by some to suggest genocide, especially in Deuteronomy, I would be very careful to suggest that the command in this instance was of a genocidal nature. In Joshua 13, in describing the land division given to the tribe of Rueben, there is a short reference to this incident in Numbers:
Jos 13:21ff —all the towns on the plateau and the entire realm of Sihon king of the Amorites, who ruled at Heshbon. Moses had defeated him and the Midianite chiefs, Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—princes allied with Sihon—who lived in that country. In addition to those slain in battle, the Israelites had put to the sword Balaam son of Beor, who practiced divination.
From the International Standard Bible Excyclopedia:
“…the biblical evidence suggests that the Midianites ranged over a large area, including northwest Arabia, southern Transjordan, the Arabah, portions of the Negeb, and possibly northern Sinai. Although northwest Arabia eventually became associated with the land of Midian, probably the range of the Midianites at one time was much larger…Further, some research has raised the possibility that Midian refers not to a land but to an amorphous league of tribes. This league dominated the people and areas of the southern Transjordan, Negeb, and portions of Arabia from the Late Bronze Age until approvimately the 11th century B.C., when other people gradually supplanted the league.”
Joshua says that it was those five Midianite chiefs and their people that were allied with Sihon and who lived in that country that were the object of the Lord’s wrath, not the whole Midianite people in the entirety of the world. Based on the fact that the Midianites appear again in the time of the judges, we have to assume that when the Scriptures say in Numbers 31:7 that the Israelites “killed every man,” it means they killed every man belonging to that group of Midianites lead by the five chiefs of that area allied to Sihon, not every man who was a Midianite in the whole land, otherwise there would be no Midianites to mention in succeeding events.
You ask, So did God command Israel to let them live because they were virgins (regardless of whether or not they were partaking in the pagan atrocities) or did Israel take these spoils of war for their on pleasure and then use God to justify their actions?
I would think that if the Israelites took these spoils of war for their own pleasure and used God to justify their actions, God would have had something negative to say about it. On the contrary, we have this is Numbers 31:41.
Num 31:41 Moses gave the tribute to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part, as the LORD commanded Moses.
The spoils and plunder were divided between the soldiers and the community (verse 27), with a tribute part for the priests being set aside from the soldiers half (verse 28-29). The priests then brought that tribute “into the Tent of Meeting as a memorial for the Israelites before the Lord” (Num 31:54).
And if you notice in Numbers 31:32ff, the women who had never slept with a man were considered part of the plunder.
Num 31:32ff The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 72,000 cattle, 61,000 donkeys and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.
So I think it’s obvious that the Lord approved of what the Israelites did, and this is not just an instance of a group of people using their God as justification for their evil deeds.
The question then becomes, why were the virgin women spared? Was that a direct command from God?
Perhaps it was simply an act of mercy. I don't know for sure. Scripturally speaking, there is no evidence that God spoke any command of that nature to Moses to give to the Israelites. However, throughout this whole incident, there is also no evidence that Moses was acting in contradiction to what the Lord wanted him to do. Just because in this instance there is no “The Lord said to Moses” does not mean that Moses was commanding something outside the wishes of God.
In my mind, any question as to why would only be speculation, as the Scriptures do not come out and specifically say why. What I am more sure about is that the assertion that these women were raped or used as sexual objects is false.
A couple of verses after Moses commands the virgin women to be spared, he commands the following in accordance with the Law:
Num 31:19 All of you who have killed anyone or touched anyone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives.
Remember, many of the men who had engaged in the fornication with the Midianite women were dead from the plague God had sent, so the remaining men more than likely had the fear of God put in them that if they did anything wrong, they would surely meet a similar fate. Surely they would have followed this above command as flawlessly as possible. Purifying, to me, does not equate to rape and wanton sexual gratification.
The fact that many men had just died as punishment from God for commiting adultery and fornication with these Midianite women, would cause the remaining men to think twice about doing anything abhorent or immoral with them.
Those are some of my thoughts on your questions. Hopefully they are of some help.
God bless, Eric
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Eric,
Thank you so much for your response. It indeed was very helpful. I can now go back and take another look at these passages with the insight you have provided.
Thanks again,
Jason
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Am I thinking from a completely carnal point of view?
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Hi Eric,
What makes the entire bible a parable is that even physical/historical events recorded have a deeper spiritual meaning that is not always (in fact rarely) easy to discern. Look at Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar for just one example.
There are absolute parables which are not literal but if we read the scriptures as only a history book we are missing out on the true purpose and meaning of His Word.
Peace,
Joe
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Just curious at what age did they marry at this time?
13 years old?
These virgins may have been very young, and years from being given in marriage?
This would make one think differently about it being rape.
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Whoa!
Falcon, I see no need to lock this thread. Eric is only giving input like you. Anyway, let me clarify something with you...are you saying that these events that you listed are all parables and none are historical?
Joe, I understand that literal things that took place in the bible have a spiritual meaning. However, does that mean we completely disregard the historicity of it? The point I'm trying to make is that I'm not only reading the bible as a history book. However, history is part of the book and their is truth in the history also. If we disregard the history, then where would that leave us on Jesus and the resurrection. The story of our Savior is obviously spiritual, but without the factual history of it....then we are indeed pathetic people.
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Joe,
I know precisely what you and others mean when you say the entire Bible is a parable. And I agree with you. Perhaps I didn't make that clear, even though I told you precisely how I choose to describe the events of the Old Testament: They are actual historical events that God planned and brought to fruition in order to provide examples to us of moral and spiritual truths. You may see it differently, but nothing in that statement contradicts what I believe you mean when you say the Bible is a parable.
My point - and again, obviously I didn't make it clear – was that based upon Ray's quote “No parable is literal or historical,” which many people may have read, as well as the general connotation that comes along with the word ‘parable,’ that they are fictional stories used to convey a spiritual truth as in the case of many if not all of Jesus’ parables, there are some who may be confused by what is being said. This is obvious in the fact that James (Sozo) asked the question, “Are these stories actual historical events that took place?”
Also, I believe in meeting people where they are at spiritually, and I honestly don't think Ray would disagree with me. What I mean by that is what I've heard many times from others, “You don't feed steak to an infant.” In other words, the spiritual truths of God can not be understood by a carnal babe and we certainly don't force these truths down their throats. So we meet them where they are at. I hope James does not insinuate that I am calling him a carnal babe in Christ and that he can't understand spiritual truths, but obviously he was not responding to all of the attempted spiritual explanations being given.
I attempted to give him answers to some of his questions based on what the straightforward Scriptures and words in the surrounding text said as well as some understanding from a reputable reference book. Are there higher, spiritual truths to be learned from this event in the Bible? Yes, of course there are. But my intent was to try and get James to start paying attention to what is said in the entirety of the historical narrative, not just in that one passage that he quoted at the outset of the thread. For instance, Moses told the people to purify themselves and their captives outside the gate. When we understand that purification does not entail rape and sexual gratification, at least in the sphere of God's law to the Israelites, we can already answer James’s questioning of whether the virgins were raped or not. There's no need in my mind to get into spiritual truths yet until questions like this are answered from a historical and straightforward Scriptural way.
And obviously from his response, it helped. He is now going back to the Scriptures to study more for himself. And that is what is hoped for: that people will go back to the Scriptures and God will begin to open their eyes to see the deeper hidden spiritual truths, now that they understand what is going on in the literal and historical.
I pray that I have been able to express what I was trying to do in regards to James’s questions clearly and effectively. If not, please let me know, either in this thread or by PM. I am very open to constructive criticism and would like to know where others feel my thinking is unscriptural.
God bless,
Eric
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Hi Eric,
You did an outstanding job of clarifying your point, we have no disagreement Brother!
Peace,
Joe
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This is a fascinating thread so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents on the actual historical aspects of scripture. It is hard to sort out still because I don't like to pick and choose -- either it's all historical or it's all parable -- but that becomes impossible. I don't believe the days in Genesis are 6 literal days but then that's when I start picking and choosing -- right there in chapter 1. Whew.
Here's how I explain it to the best of my ability. First, yes it all really happened in the natural:
1Co 15:46 (KJV) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
The events in the OT all happened first in the natural and now we understand them in the spiritual. Some are very, very, very hard to understand especially given what God has shown us about His sovereignty. It doesn't really matter if Moses was "commanded" by God -- it happened, it's in there, it's hard to comprehend the horrendous violence throughout the OT. Judges 19 is a particularly hard one for me.
Ecc 1:13 (CLV) I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
God has just told us why this evil existed in the OT and still exists today. But all these things that happened in the OT to be written down were for a special purpose:
(ASV) Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.
As Joe said, they are now types and shadows. First they were natural and now they are spiritual -- for our admonition -- "our" is those given eyes to see.
But then all of the above does not really explain why I start picking and choosing right there at Genesis 1 to believe in 6 spiritual days as opposed to 6 literal days -- well truth be known, I really have no clue. I may be inclined to believe the 6 spiritual days but that doesn't make it so. Just because I want to believe that scientists have some foundation for big bang, etc. -- well, maybe they do and maybe they don't. Paul tells me that the wisdom of man is complete foolishness to God -- and that includes my wisdom, your wisdom and every scientist ever born.
And we know that God sends strong delusion so even believing in this scientific wisdom of man in the first place could be one huge delusion.
I know that it may sound fantastic to believe that Eve actually talked to a snake or Jonah spent 3 days in the belly of a whale BUT this sounds like a hollywood movie -- a ghost came and impregnated this virgin woman who gave birth to this impossibly perfect being who was then turned back into spirit when he died. Oh, this guy's going to save all mankind in the process.
So I can't deny that fantastic sounding stuff actually happened without denying Christ's resurrection -- but then again do I absolutely know for a fact that Joshua actually knocked down those walls historically and literally the way it is written in God's word -- well, no.
So I have to fall back on the dozens of scripture refering to God's wisdom and God's will and God's word as a mystery and a secret.
1Co 2:7 (CLV) but we are speaking God's wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates before - before the eons, for our glory,
I have been given eyes and ears to understand what it means for me while reading it now in 2008 -- it's all spirit. Fundamentally, it doesn't matter if every single thing happened historically or not. It's spirit. Now this certainly doesn't make the part of my brain that wants to put everything into a little logical box very happy. It certainly makes it hard to get into a debate with others about whether these things are true or not.
Conclusion -- this is an evil world and the OT reflects that. God has revealed to me His sovereignty in this so I can't blame man's free will, Moses or the devil. But God has also revealed that He has a glorious purpose behind this evil experience and my small little brain can only see some of that mystery.
And yes, I realize that I'm picking and choosing in saying it is all historical fact but some details might be spiritual parable -- but it's a MYSTERY DADGUMMIT AND JUST LEAVE ME ALONE ;)
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carol v
AMEN
With what you posted Carol and hitting the nail on the head. WHAM !!!, nothing need more to be said....
MAN i love this FORUM !!! :)
Rodger
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The question I posed when I started this thread was sincere and no ill intent was involved. I did nothing to warrant the sarcastic responses that I received from Falcon. Falcon, please except my apologies if I unknowingly offended you in some way.
I will now gracefully bow out.
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The question I posed when I started this thread was sincere and no ill intent was involved. I did nothing to warrant the sarcastic responses that I received from Falcon. Falcon, please except my apologies if I unknowingly offended you in some way.
I will now gracefully bow out.
This is an interesting thread with great comments throughout.
Sozo, I don't believe Falcon meant any ill-will. It wasn't you, per se, that he was being sarcastic with, just the thought of looking at the scriptures from a historical standpoint. Almost like how Ray is sarcastic in his emails. Not with the person but their Babylonian doctrines or idols of the heart.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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Rodger,
If you check out this website that was created by Sozo, Jason.
I think you have assumed to much into his intentions!
http://www.sozoproductions.org/videos/index.htm
God Bless You Carol!
Brenda
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Hi, this is Dewey & Paula
We have read all of the contents of this post and we just want to share with you what has been given to us through this post. All of you have some very good questions and explanations! What this comes down to,it has been good conversation. At this point, we would like to say that we feel that we just have a taste of the spiritual. Our minds could not stand the full aspect of even of one of God's truths- it would be like lookin' in the face of God and you all know the consequences of that!
We believe that we are just scratchin' the surface - that's all that he gives us believers, FAITH just enough faith.
Joe, you are absolutely right - history repeats itself. There is nothing new under the sun (the scriptures say ).And Roger there is only one messenger of life. And only then through faith and grace, you come up with some very good scriptures. And they are scriptures that we as cardinal beings are allowed to gleen all as possible from what we have been given by Our Lord, through you.
I think your answer on the former post was excellent. I did not see an insult, but merely a correction and that's all we' ve got to say about that.
And Dave in Tennesse: I have to say that Moses may have spoiled the whole plan; but I have to say if he did, God directed his steps as per scripture. If that answered one of your questions, it answered all of them.
I would like to reaffirm to everyone - if it has happened, it has been God's will. How do we know that it's been God's will? Check this out - an example of Jesus proclaiming to the public how to pray: "OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN HALLOWED BE YOUR NAME YOUR KINGDOM COME YOUR WILL BE DONE" check it out folks, is the first time that Jesus declares that man doesn't have free will - or the second?
All these words mean very little to our salvation. What does mean something is faith and grace. When you're given faith, in my case, and Paula's case, you begin to see things that weren't here before because Father has made something out of nothing - he's good for that!
And with that folks this is what we have to say - faith is hard to come by. If you have the faith that Jesus died and was resurrected that much has been revealed to you by the Father. I say that because there are so many billions of people that don't believe what we've been shown.
Read all the scripures that you can - memorize all that you can. They're little proofs of the tidbits that our Father gives us. How strange - just enough.
Love y'all
In the Spirit of Jesus Christ we go out on this limb 'cause that's where the fruit's at
Dewey & Paula
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Hey Falconn003,
I love this line you used..."Undoing the indoctrination of man.." That says a lot to me.
It also explains this process that is taking place in this very forum and about this very subject. God help us through this.
Jeff
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I'm pretty disappointed in the postings of this thread.
Pat yourself on the back for thinking you gave some profound spiritual answer that we all just had to hear when in fact I believe you did a good job of using the sword to slash at Sozo (Jason).
I am sure for those that God blesses with truth... he also blesses with mercy.
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I have 3 girls, all grown now. Starting when they were pretty young I would try not to interfer (anymore than I absolutely had to) when they had squabbles. The reason for this was that I knew that they had to learn how to work things out for themselves and to get along with each other. I was always right there to monitor the situation as the oldest was 6 yrs older than the youngest. It would have been a lot easier to have just made them stop fussing and go to their rooms. But my thinking was if they learned how to work things out with each others while they were growing up, that it would help them in all their relationships later on.
Well as I said they are grown and I have to admit they all have a wonderful relationship with each other. I'm not trying to say that by my own great parenting that this was accomplished, not at all without God and I prayed a lot.
But the point is we need to learn how to get along with each other here. Hopefully the discussions on these threads will help us to learn more about how we should be considerate of one another, newer and older members alike. Are we exhorting/encouraging one another? Are we being a productive member of the body? This is what we are to be learning. The mods should only have to step in when things get out of hand, which actually rarely happens.
Heb 10:24-25 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
mercy, peace and love
Kat