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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Marky Mark on April 09, 2009, 07:35:36 PM
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I just wanted to throw this out there since its that time of the year again.
Thanks Marques ;D
Email to Ray.
http://bible-truths.com/email6.htm#three
Hello Ray,
On your Email question and answer on a reply to a question you mention Matt.12;40 saying that the verse is not speaking about the length of time that Jesus was buried. Why is your view changed?
Urban
[Ray Replies]
Dear Urban:
You are a pretty sharp guy to catch that! I will write a separate paper on this subject in the near future, or I may incorporate it into my paper on "The Lake of Fire."
I changed my view, because as of three months ago, I realized I was teaching heresy regarding these "three days and three nights." I spent tens of hours on this subject a couple of months back, when I should have been writing on my paper. A friend believed that "three days and three nights" could mean any part of three days and three nights. I said that "three days and three nights" could not possibly means "Friday night, Saturday day, and Saturday night." That's only ONE day and TWO nights.
I calculated EVERY CONCEIVABLE way possible to have Christ resurrected early Sunday morning while it was just beginning to dawn, and yet, go backwards "three NIGHTS and three DAYS" and arrive a time and day that would fit all of the other statements regarding the crucifixion, burial, and resurrection--the Passover preparation day, the hurrying to bury Christ because of impending weekly Sabbath, that that Sabbath that year was "an high or holy" day in addition to being the weekly sabbath, etc., etc.
Anyway, I found that IT CANNOT BE DONE! IT WON'T FIT! No matter how anyone configures the Passover, Days of Unleavened Bread, weekly Sabbath, etc., IT CANNOT BE DONE--it will not fit. I spent hours and hours just on the Scripture in Luke's account where the men going to Emmaus were accosted by our Lord, and one of them remarked, "And beside all this, TO DAY IS THE THIRD DAY since these things were done" (Luke 24:21). But I found one translation that said, "Besides all this, IT HAS ALREADY BEEN THREE DAYS since these things were done." I thought I was really on to something here. NOT!
I obviously prayed to God to give me understanding. After one of my intense sessions with the Scriptures regarding this matter, I went to the kitchen for a drink, and while on my way God turned on a light bulb in my spirit. I had FAILED MYSELF TO DO WHAT I HAVE BEEN TEACHING OTHERS. I was thrilled with the answer--God gave me the answer.
I called Michael, and informed him that "he was RIGHT after all." By combining ALL of the Scriptural statements regarding Christ's crucifixion, He HAD to be buried on Friday evening and raised Sunday morning! And Michael was delighted to know that he was right after all. But my next statement floored him. I then told Michael that I WAS RIGHT ALSO. THAT JESUS CHRIST REALLY WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH!
Well, Michael was now bewildered--HOW CAN THAT BE, THAT'S A CONTRADICTION! I told him that it is no contradiction, we were both right and we were both wrong. Jesus Christ was buried Friday evening and rose Sunday morning, and yet, was also "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Two things I neglected to follow:
Jesus Christ ALWAYS, ALWAYS spoke to the multitudes in public in PARABLES. Parables are not LITERAL, neither do they lie. I neglected to treat this teaching of Jesus as a "parable."
It NOWHERE SAYS that Jesus would be "DEAD for three days and three nights." I just ASSUMED that is what was meant by the phrase "in the HEART OF THE EARTH."
I'll just give you the gist of the answer, as my time is limited right now. Jesus called "three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH," "the SIGN of Jonah." Now then, if Christ was to be DEAD for the exact period of TIME of three days and three nights, How then could that be "the sign of Jonah?" JONAH WAS NOT DEAD AT ALL!!! Jonah went through 'A LIVING HELL' if you will! Besides, Jesus was NOT buried in the "HEART" of the earth, He was buried in an ABOVE THE EARTH TOMB! Maybe twenty inches or so on the other side of a big stone.
"In the HEART OF THE EARTH" is a parable showing the unbelievable agony of the human spirit and flesh that Jesus would go through LEADING UP TO and INCLUDING the time in the tomb. And those three days began on the PREPARATION FOR THE PASSOVER, seeing that Jesus, HIMSELF, was to BE THE PASSOVER!!!
And don't forget the AGONY IN THE GARDEN when Jesus SWEAT BLOOD!! No one will ever know what torture He endured those "three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH." BEFORE the beatings and crucifixion we read this:
"NOW is My SOUL TROUBLED [Greek: DISTRESSED, IN TURMOIL!]; and what shall I say? Father, save Me from this hour: but for his cause came I unto THIS HOUR" (John 23:27).
The "heart of the earth" is the very DEPTH OF THE FLESH. The flesh of man is "of the EARTH, EARTHY" Paul tells us.
Again, thank you for your keen observation.
God be with you,
Ray
Peace...Mark
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Ray Smith
The "heart of the earth" is the very DEPTH OF THE FLESH. The flesh of man is "of the EARTH, EARTHY" Paul tells us.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6310.0.html
So this whole thing of coming out of our life - coming out of carnality - coming out of religiosity is like coming out of darkness into the light and that light will give you peace or rest. You have to rest or cease your works and that is what this verse says, which concludes in Heb. 4:10.
John 19 : 30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, It is finished: and He bowed His Head, and gave up the ghost.
Luke 24 : 6 He is not HERE, but IS risen: remember how He spake unto you when He was yet in Galilee, 7. saying, The Son of man must be (one) delivered into the hands of sinful men, (two) and be crucified, and the third day (thirdly) rise again.
He IS Risen! TODAY...everyday, every moment in Spirit and in Truth.
Arc
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For those, new and old, who want a more in depth study, here is a link to a discussion we had on this in 2007.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5916.0.html
Suzie
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Very interesting !
This is a timely post for me. I :-[ have been wondering if we are to get together for a holiday meal,so to speak, or not ??? I haven't gotten that far yet in reading Ray's papers.
Thank you Suzie for the thread to the old post. It was very enlightening to me. Ray and Joe cleared it up for me.
hugs and luv,meee
For those, new and old, who want a more in depth study, here is a link to a discussion we had on this in 2007.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5916.0.html
Suzie
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Very interesting !
This is a timely post for me. I :-[ have been wondering if we are to get together for a holiday meal,so to speak, or not ??? I haven't gotten that far yet in reading Ray's papers.
Thank you Suzie for the thread to the old post. It was very enlightening to me. Ray and Joe cleared it up for me.
hugs and luv,meee
Meee,hope this helps, an email to Ray.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2855.0.html
Dear mommateeh:
Understand that if there never was a Roman Saturnalia pagan fest in mid-winter, there would not be a Christmas, or an X-mas, or a day of exchanging gifts and kissing under the mistletoe, drinking eggnog and booze, putting eggs [orbs] on evergreen trees, etc., etc., etc. What people do with such days (Easter of also pagan) is up to them. I do not condemn anyone for keeping Christmas or Easter. Of course your friends and relatives will hate yhou if you don't partake of these customs. It's hard to obey Jesus until you begin to see the value in doing so. I know that people have a good time and enjoy the Christmas Season. They also enjoyed it when it was called the Saturnalie in pagan Rome. But on the other hand, your are right, people get all spiritually bent out of shape over Christmas, and become much much holier-than-thou because they have a little knowledge. I get Christmas presents. I accept them. I thank the givers, and enjoy the gifts. Didn't Jesus "eat and socialize with SINNERS in their own homes?" Try not to destroy your family over this Season of the year. Life is not always easy.
God be with you,
Ray
Peace...Mark
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A great help Mark!
It's funny because those that want to hold the celebration { in my family,anyway } don't really even serve the Lord. Just a tradition. My fault though, because I raised my kids to partake in all these traditions. Now when I try to not take part, it isn't understood, they still want me to cook and everyone wants to come to my home for these things.
Thank you!
meee
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Someone the other day asked me if I was doing anything for Easter, and I *sarcastically* replied, "Nope. I'm not a Pagan." Haha, they just gave me a very confused look, and then walked away...
;D Daywalker.
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Daywalker, Hi,
Yea, I was checking out in a store and the cashier said "have a nice Easter", and I didn't say " you too, or anything" , she stared at me like,"well she must not have heard me or something."
I'll remember your pagan line, funny!
good one,meee
Someone the other day asked me if I was doing anything for Easter, and I *sarcastically* replied, "Nope. I'm not a Pagan." Haha, they just gave me a very confused look, and then walked away...
;D Daywalker.
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Hi!
Let me just add my 2 cents worth ;D You know I just don't worry about it one way or another..Some of these things if it causes someone who wouldn't even think about what Jesus did for us at any other time and yet always manages to go to church on Christmas or Easter, that's at least twice a year that Jesus gets into their thoughts if only long enough to make it to the "big dinner" at the end of it all. You just never know what God uses to work His will in anyone! I think of all the traditions I have gone through in the name of being a "good Christian" I just can't judge anyone else!
I either participate if I'm invited or don't if I'm not! It usually makes the little kids happy to have a day where they can have fun and you know kids are all about that! I'm a big kid at heart and I love to see children laugh and play, Jesus loves kids, too that's why he did what he did! So anyway, that's just my way of looking at it. I don't go to church on those days unless my grandkids beg me to go or if they are in a program. I would never NOT go with them, what kind of Ninny would I be?? :D :D
You know Man looks on the outward appearance (do we care what people think or expect of us?), but God looks at the heart ( you know we worship in spirit and in truth). Oh well, to me? I don't care one way or another! :D Eph 4:32 yet become kind to one another, tenderly compassionate, dealing graciously among yourselves, according as God also, in Christ, deals graciously with you." CLV
Just be kind when someone wishes you a happy day and say "Thank you!"
Kathy ;)
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http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2855.0.html
Dear mommateeh:
Understand that if there never was a Roman Saturnalia pagan fest in mid-winter, there would not be a Christmas, or an X-mas, or a day of exchanging gifts and kissing under the mistletoe, drinking eggnog and booze, putting eggs [orbs] on evergreen trees, etc., etc., etc. What people do with such days (Easter of also pagan) is up to them. I do not condemn anyone for keeping Christmas or Easter. Of course your friends and relatives will hate yhou if you don't partake of these customs. It's hard to obey Jesus until you begin to see the value in doing so. I know that people have a good time and enjoy the Christmas Season. They also enjoyed it when it was called the Saturnalie in pagan Rome. But on the other hand, your are right, people get all spiritually bent out of shape over Christmas, and become much much holier-than-thou because they have a little knowledge. I get Christmas presents. I accept them. I thank the givers, and enjoy the gifts. Didn't Jesus "eat and socialize with SINNERS in their own homes?" Try not to destroy your family over this Season of the year. Life is not always easy.
God be with you,
Ray
Peace...Mark
Great post, Mark!
I remember when I first learned about the Origins of Easter and Xmas [both via BT and other sources], I became suddenly confused. I wanted to honor God by not continuing to follow these Pagan traditions, but I also didn't want to start a feud with my family and friends. I also didn't want to become 'holier than thou'! I always hated that kind of attitude. My focus has been on just respecting and having a fun time with my family and friends, and not practicing any of the 'religious' traditions or anything...
Whenever someone wishes me Happy Easter or Xmas, my usual response is simply, "you, too". I'm simply wishing them a Happy Day..
But [as seen in my previous quote] I will make an occasional comment, if the door is opened... But never with a serious, or demeaning intention; I am just a very sarcastic person, and sometimes I cannot help myself :D
Good Day Friends,
Daywalker.
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When wished a "Happy Christmas," I find the most disarming responce is to smile back and inform the well wisher that for me Christmas is every day! This comment invariably is met with a joyful acceptance and nods of albeit, ignorant approval.
With responding that Easter for me is everyday, the responce is not met so joyfully. I think this is because Christmas is associated with giving, gifts, indulgence and parties. Easter on the other hand is associated with loss, grief and death rather than the fulfilment of the Plan of God in Christ.
Death is still not taught correctly by Christandom. The fear of a loved one or oneself dying and then being made alive in Hell has to be a real source of fear for those who have not yet seen or heard the truth.
Arc
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I find that, within myself, it is sometimes not easy to not judge people because they chose to celebrate these "christian holidays". it is hard for me to keep my mouth shut. It is difficult also for me to not respond with some "I think I am better than you because of a little knowledge Father has graciously bestowed upon me" attitude. >:(
But, I keep my mouth shut, I smile, I love.
These so called "christian holidays" are difficult to get through, but we here at BT are in training. And I speak for myself here, but, I don't believe that I am quite ready to judge. ??? ??? :-\
What do you all think?
Charrie :-*
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Easter is every day, I think Arcturus said it. Christ is alive, Christ is risen. Christ is still with us. Judy
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It is not a sin to discern.
We’re all out of Adam. And what does Adam do? Being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters and on and on. Wow, this is O man out of Adam. This is what he does. And only by the grace of God, some of us didn’t have to go that route.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html
There is no law against discerning if a person is still blind, bound and subject to belief in lies and loyalty to error. God's Judgment is not condemnation and self elevation to unmerited heights of holiness. God IS Holy. God is not an egocentric megalomaniac.
Discerning that a person is still spiritually blind should not make us feel holier than thou, but pity for the person still in the dark. This is discernment with Mercy and gratitude to God for our blessings rather than pious self aggrandisement and disdain for those God has not appointed to be His vessels of Honor. God is always the potter and changes not.
Until and unless we are made able to judge with the Spirit of God, we shall not be able to.
Here is how God judges and note, Paul councils us to pay attention to the fact that the chosen are going to Judge even the Angels.
http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html
God "judges" us by "chastening "(paideuo) us, which means, teaching, training, learning, disciplining, punishing, instructing, and educating. And God "graces" us also by this same "chastening" (paideuo) which does not change meaning from one Scripture verse to another. Notice how other translations render this word paideuo in Titus 2:11-12:
"Teaching us..." King James
"Instructing us..." American Standard Version
"Disciplining us... New Testament (Henry Alford)
"And schooling us..." The Centenary Translation (Montgomery)
"Training us..." The New Testament in Modern Speech (Weymouth)
Purpose for bible-truths.com
"[1] preach with sound doctrine and [2] refute those who contradict it"
[Titus 1:9 - The New Revised Standard Version]
Arc
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Thank you Suzie for the thread to the old post. It was very enlightening to me. Ray and Joe cleared it up for me.
hugs and luv,meee
You are welcome meee.
Suzie
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Thanks, Arc, for pulling Ray's teaching on this.
It is not a sin to discern.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html
There is no law against discerning if a person is still blind, bound and subject to belief in lies and loyalty to error. God's Judgment is not condemnation and self elevation to unmerited heights of holiness. God IS Holy. God is not an egocentric megalomaniac.
Discerning that a person is still spiritually blind should not make us feel holier than thou, but pity for the person still in the dark. This is discernment with Mercy and gratitude to God for our blessings rather than pious self aggrandisement and disdain for those God has not appointed to be His vessels of Honor. God is always the potter and changes not.
Until and unless we are made able to judge with the Spirit of God, we shall not be able to.
http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html
God "judges" us by "chastening "(paideuo) us, which means, teaching, training, learning, disciplining, punishing, instructing, and educating. And God "graces" us also by this same "chastening" (paideuo) which does not change meaning from one Scripture verse to another. Notice how other translations render this word paideuo in Titus 2:11-12:
"Teaching us..." King James
"Instructing us..." American Standard Version
"Disciplining us... New Testament (Henry Alford)
"And schooling us..." The Centenary Translation (Montgomery)
"Training us..." The New Testament in Modern Speech (Weymouth)
Purpose for bible-truths.com
"[1] preach with sound doctrine and [2] refute those who contradict it"
[Titus 1:9 - The New Revised Standard Version]
Arc
That was quite helpful to me.
I suppose, too, that I am still "studying to show myself approved, rightly dividing the word of God"....."so that I will have an answer for the hope that is within me".
charrie :-*
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It's a pleasure charrie.
Godly Judgement is of God's Spirit which requires discernment of Spiritual issues. We need to learn to discern.
Ungodly judgment is carnal that uses the law to make void the Grace and Mercy of God.
We as children of God are required to be judged and then to judge after we have received from God the experience and the knowledge of what is good and what is evil.
Christiandom would have all believe that judgment is taboo when actually it is a vital need. It is which kind of judgment do we use, Godly or carnal? Is our Judgment carnal, worldly, literal or is it Godly, Spiritual and Merciful and edifying of Gods Grace and Holiness.
To be or not to be.....carnal or spiritual.....that is the question.
Arc
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Hey Kathy,
Not to excuse my attidude when I didn't reply to the cashier, but I was thinking about it and think I acted badly, because I've been strugeling within myself to understand what is expected of me. I have the understanding that these things have pagan roots, soooo should I not participate? But, I realize I didn't exhibit a Love attitude.
Sooooo thanks all for your comments, I take them to heart.
My kids have their husbands side of the family holiday meals, so sometimes I've told them, you don't have to come here too, you've already had the celebration. But, they say it wouldn't be the holiday if they didn't come home too, so there ya go, we have it here too. This year our pregnant daughter is having it at her new home in Minneapolis, for both sides of families. Our daughter that lives here in town has to work & my hubby is on call, so none of us will be going to Felicity's.
May 2nd we are going though to the cities for Felicity's baby shower, so expect some new pic's in my photobucket album . How did baby shower's come about, anyone know?
Anyhooo,thanks again everyone, all your comments are welcome and helpful for my growth.
Have a great week end,
luvya's,meee
PS: I don't see a spell check and I sure need one, forgive my spelling,please. :-[
Just be kind when someone wishes you a happy day and say "Thank you!"
Kathy ;)
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Hi Charrie. Perhaps it's helpful to consider it another way. Ray's taught us that it's not wrong to know there is a beam in somebody else's eye. To me, one way I know this is because there is a beam in MY eye, and I am no different from them. What is foolish is to try to remove the beam from others while ours is still frimly lodged.
When I was growing up, we really didn't do all the 'pagan' things related to easter. I'm not saying I never went on an Easter egg hunt or got a basket on Sunday Morning, but that stopped when my folks got a little knowledge. Even then, there were still plenty of folks around to breathe fire on them (and by extension me) for not being as smart as THEY were. Blind guides.
No...instead we went to church like we did every Sunday morning and night (and wednesday night too) and prayed the prayer of the Pharisees--"Lord, thank you that I am not like these Easter Sunday Christians (who fill up the pews so we can't find a place to sit and make it difficult to get out of the parking lot early enough to hit the restaraunts staffed by the undgodly who never go to church and must surely be doomed to Hellfire). Please, Lord, cause them to rededicate their lives to you so that they may be as spiritual as me."
I tell you the truth, it took an awful lot to have been shown by God that I am the Beast on the throne, and that my entire life is anti-Christ--including my religion, as well as my gross carnality. I'm not too bothered by paganism. It's just another flavor to me in this sin, ideology, and religion saturated world. Everywhere I look in the scripture, the Spirit says to me to move on and know God.
There's a 'wandering' to the left, and a 'wandering' to the right. The path is straight and few there be who find it.
It sounds to me like He is straigtening your walk. God bless you.
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A little different understanding i have now re: Why try to remove the mote from my friends eye, while the beam is obscuring my vision.
Perception from me, with the plank obscuring my vision.
1. My (friends, family et al) are all following pagan and ungodly practices and doctrines of demons.
2. Since i have a clearer vision, i need to point out and remove that speck (mote) from their life.
Reality when the plank is removed from my eyes.
1. There but for The Grace Of GOD; go i daily.
Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
2. GOD'S Grace is Showing and Teaching me that my perspective is skewed, once my plank is removed;
i can now see that we all had the very same plank (condition). I am HIS Workmanship not my own product.
Mat 7: 3-5 (GW)
3 So why do you see the piece of sawdust in another believer's eye and not notice the wooden beam in your own eye?
4 How can you say to another believer, 'Let me take the piece of sawdust out of your eye,' when you have a beam in your own eye?
5 You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye. Then you will see clearly to remove the piece of sawdust from another believer's eye.
Mat 7: 3-5 (CLV)
3 "Now why are you observing the mote that is in your brother's eye, yet the beam in your eye you are not considering?
4 Or how will you be declaring to your brother, 'Brother, let me extract the mote out of your eye,' and lo! the beam is in your eye?
5 Hypocrite! Extract first the beam out of your eye, and then you will be keen-sighted to be extracting the mote out of your brother's eye.
george. :)
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I am HIS Workmanship not my own product.
This is very accurate and it gets better.
Everyone else is also His Work 8)
For those who have not yet enjoyed release from the burden to save souls or the shame that we have not saved any, or the pride that we have ministered several quick fix sinners prayers, this link for starters, is for you.http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm
Enjoy
Arc
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I am HIS Workmanship not my own product.
For those who have not yet enjoyed release from the burden to save souls or the shame that we have not saved any, or the pride that we have ministered several quick fix sinners prayers,
Enjoy
Arc
Arc, this statement, link I will read later, is so true for me. When I was in Babylon the pastor would make us feel so ashamed that we weren't out witnessing. He would beat it over our heads; and, yes, I felt horrible, like I wasn't doing my "job" of being saved. They would use the scripture that pertained to "bearing fruit". If you didn't go out and "save" someone or talk about god to everyone you laid your eyes on you were lazy and not bearing fruit according to scripture. Once the pastor even said that each week we should be bringing at least one new person to church with us..man, what pressure and nonsense. Talk about being in bondage :'( :'(
In reality, the church uses witnessing, I believe, just as a means to get more bodies in the building to get more money and/or to walk in pride as to the amount of bodies they have.
Thank you, Dave and Arc, for your postings. Strangely enough, the more I learn by our Father's grace the more I see me in the right light.
I tell you the truth, it took an awful lot to have been shown by God that I am the Beast on the throne, and that my entire life is anti-Christ--including my religion, as well as my gross carnality. I'm not too bothered by paganism. It's just another flavor to me in this sin, ideology, and religion saturated world. Everywhere I look in the scripture, the Spirit says to me to move on and know God.
Charrie :-*
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Hi Charrie
You have seen correctly that Babyon does not know that the words of Christ are Spirit and Truth. It is God who provides spiritual ears and eyes to comprehend His Ways and to hear His Voice. Understanding comes only by the Spirit of God.
Babylon takes the Word of God to be literal/carnal as they are literal/carnal.
Witnessing refers to Scripture that must match another Scripture to reveal the Truth!
....the Scriptures know nothing of "winning souls for Jesus." It is a man-made doctrine of the carnal mind. http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm
Arc
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Thank you, Arc, I have read the link and that answers that question. I appreciate you :D
Charrie :-*
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Hey everyone,
About witnessing. When we were in the Baptist church our Pastor would stand in the pulpit and tell how on Saturday he'd go to the mall and strike up a conversation with someone that seemed to have all the time in the world, until Pastor began talking about hell. Then the person all of a sudden remembered they needed to be somewhere and would get away as fast as they could. Pastor would be grinning and so full of himself and making fun of the person he's witinessed to. It made me sick and ashamed. He did more harm than good,but he was so blind he didn't know this.
Just think of all the harm that is done in the name of Christ!
Just me remembering a very sad :'( :( time at so called church.
luv & hugs, meee
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I have reread Ray's "winning souls" paper and I did not come across a particular scripture that Christendom uses to seduce people into witnessing.
Matt. 28:19-20 Go therefore[a] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;
Matt. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
I have heard several pastors in Christendom say that Big Brother Jesus Christ won't come back until this is completed. Which, therefore, is why we need to witness. This is why they travel (in 20,000,000 jets) around the world and need our money to help "spread the gospel" to these "unreached nations".
You know, I heard Creflo Dollar say once that, he (Creflo) didn't believe that Jesus Christ was coming back for a "broke$$$$" church :o :o (talk about mind control)
I know that these scriptures are Spiritual and I believe they may pertain to after the resurrection? :-\ Where the elect will be able to go throughout the WHOLE WORLD teaching the gospel.
They (the Elect) will not need planes, trains, etc...and will cost nothing ;D ;D
Anyway, if someone can help to get a better understanding of these particular scriptures that would be great!! :)
Charrie :-*
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Just one other question, as well.
In Ray's paper on winning souls he states that that common scripture churches use:
Prov 11: 30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and he who wins souls is wise.
does not even pertain to winning souls. What does it pertain to?
Charrie :-*
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Hi Charrie,
Take a bit of time and study these ten different translations, also look up strongs or any concordance you have. The story is very different depending on the translation or word order. I do think i have the answer but you do the exercise and see what you come up with.
I know you have some other questions but this gives you a way to get one part done.
Pro 11:30 (CEV)
Live right, and you will eat from the life-giving tree. And if you act wisely, others will follow.
Pro 11:30 (Geneva)
The fruite of the righteous is as a tree of life, and he that winneth soules, is wise.
Pro 11:30 (YLT)
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, And whoso is taking souls is wise.
Pro 11:30 (GNB)
Righteousness gives life, but violence takes it away.
Pro 11:30 (ESV)
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and whoever captures souls is wise.
Pro 11:30 (CLV)
The fruit of a righteous man is a tree of life, And he who procures souls is wise."
Pro 11:30 (Rotherham)
The fruit of the righteous, is a tree of life, and, he that rescueth souls, is wise.
Pro 11:30 (Revised Webster 1833)
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise. (winneth: Heb. taketh)
Pro 11:30 (The Apostles Bible)
Out of the fruit of righteousness grows a tree of life, but the souls of transgressors are cut off before their time.
Pro 11:30 (BBE)
The fruit of righteousness is a tree of life, but violent behaviour takes away souls.
george. :)
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I think what that comparative list on Prov. 11:30 demonstrates, if nothing else, that it's a particularly knotty thought to translate from Hebrew.
Charrie, even if we take Mark 24:14 literally, I don't believe the 'gospel' which the churches are preaching even qualifies as 'gospel'...much less The Gospel of the Kingdom. No...their's is the 'other' gospel', the 'different' gospel which was prophecied would 'enter in', even though its reach is larger and broader (many are called, few chosen) and despite the fact that it even contradicts itself.
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Charrie,for what its worth,according to the SPURIOUS PASSAGES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, Mark 16; 9-20 are not in Scripture.
Peace...Mark
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I have reread Ray's "winning souls" paper and I did not come across a particular scripture that Christendom uses to seduce people into witnessing.
Matt. 28:19-20 Go therefore[a] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;
Matt. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
I have heard several pastors in Christendom say that Big Brother Jesus Christ won't come back until this is completed. Which, therefore, is why we need to witness. This is why they travel (in 20,000,000 jets) around the world and need our money to help "spread the gospel" to these "unreached nations".
You know, I heard Creflo Dollar say once that, he (Creflo) didn't believe that Jesus Christ was coming back for a "broke$$$$" church :o :o (talk about mind control)
I know that these scriptures are Spiritual and I believe they may pertain to after the resurrection? :-\ Where the elect will be able to go throughout the WHOLE WORLD teaching the gospel.
They (the Elect) will not need planes, trains, etc...and will cost nothing ;D ;D
Anyway, if someone can help to get a better understanding of these particular scriptures that would be great!! :)
Charrie :-*
Funny thing, I bet Mr. Dollar has enough "Dollars" to "refuel" the Church for a long time all by himself. Add Paula White, Billy Graham, and all those others, and they'd never have to rob a poor person ever again!!!!!
James 1:27: Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
Matthew 25:45 Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.'"
Matthew 21:12-13: And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money changers… and said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves
So, WHO'S REALLY ROBBING GOD? :o Why oh why don't people see these things? ???
- Daywalker.
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Charrie,for what its worth,according to the SPURIOUS PASSAGES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, Mark 16; 9-20 are not in Scripture.
Peace...Mark
Thank you, Mark. I appreciate the reminder. I have those spurious passages indicated in my NKJV but currently using the Rot henham Version and haven't gone through and made indications in it yet.
Hi Charrie,
Take a bit of time and study these ten different translations, also look up strongs or any concordance you have. The story is very different depending on the translation or word order. I do think i have the answer but you do the exercise and see what you come up with.
I know you have some other questions but this gives you a way to get one part done.
Pro 11:30 (CEV)
Live right, and you will eat from the life-giving tree. And if you act wisely, others will follow.
Pro 11:30 (Geneva)
The fruite of the righteous is as a tree of life, and he that winner soules, is wise.
Pro 11:30 (YLT)
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, And whoso is taking souls is wise.
Pro 11:30 (GNB)
Righteousness gives life, but violence takes it away.
Pro 11:30 (ESV)
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and whoever captures souls is wise.
Pro 11:30 (CLV)
The fruit of a righteous man is a tree of life, And he who procures souls is wise."
Pro 11:30 (Rotherham)
The fruit of the righteous, is a tree of life, and, he that rescueth souls, is wise.
Pro 11:30 (Revised Webster 1833)
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winner souls is wise. (winner: Heb. taketh)
Pro 11:30 (The Apostles Bible)
Out of the fruit of righteousness grows a tree of life, but the souls of transgressors are cut off before their time.
Pro 11:30 (BBE)
The fruit of righteousness is a tree of life, but violent behaviour takes away souls.
george. :)
Hi, George
Thank you so much for all the different versions. I have done some studying, which is why it has taken me so long to get back. The wonderful thing is that the more I studied the more revelation the Spirit of Yahweh opened to me. It is truly a wonderful feeling to get understanding.
OK, so this is what I've learned, so far. I am not attempting to teach but share some of the limited knowledge Father has decided to bless me with.
Pro 11:30 (Revised Webster 1833)
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winner souls is wise. (winner: Heb. taketh)
I first started with "a tree of life". Father likens us to:
(Mat 5:13) You are the salt of the earth.
Mat 5:14 `Ye are the light of the world,...
Mat 5:15 ...and it shineth to all those in the house;
Mat 5:16 so let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and may glorify your Father who is in the heavens.
BUT, HE mostly likens us to trees or branches:
Isa 61:3 to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them a garland for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they may be called trees of righteousness, the planting of Jehovah, that he may be glorified.
Now we trees are "a tree of life" and our main function is to bear fruit (good fruit):
but unlike natural trees "a tree of life's: fruit encompasses several qualities:
Wisdom is a tree of life (Prov. 3:18)
The fruit of a righteous man is a tree of life (Prov. 11:30)
An expectation met (hope) is a tree of life (Prov. 13:12)
A gentle tongue is a tree of life (Pro 15:4)
Trees that bear fruit are not allowed to be cut down because they sustain life for man (world):
(Deu 20:19-20) When you besiege a city many days to battle against it to grab it, you shall bring ruin on no tree of it by wielding an axe against it; if you may eat of it, you shall not cut them down; for is the tree of the field a human to come before your face in the siege?
But a tree that you know it is not a tree for food, you may bring ruin on it and cut it down, so you may build siege-works against the city which is engaging in battle with you until it comes down.
It is essential for "a tree of life" to remain connected to the "Vine":
Joh 15:1-6 I am the true Grapevine, and My Father is the Farmer."
Every branch in Me bringing forth no fruit, He is taking it away, and every one bringing forth fruit, He is cleansing it, that it may be bringing forth more fruit."
Already you are clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
Remain in Me. I also am in you. According as the branch can not be bringing forth fruit from itself, if it should not be remaining in the grapevine, thus neither you, if you should not be remaining in Me."
I am the Grapevine. You are the branches. He who is remaining in Me, and I in him, this one is bringing forth much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing."
If anyone should not be remaining in Me, he was cast out as a branch, and it withered. And they are gathering them, and into the fire are they casting them, and they are being burned."
However, there is a difference between what the Word of Yahweh states as both a "A tree of life" and "THE tree of life"
Perhaps more on that later because I don't want this post to get tooo long.
Anywho, we know that Prov. 11:30 does not pertain to witnessing and I now see why. Trees, salt, light, branches do not talk, (i will stay with trees, though), a tree does not argue, it does not pursued you to come over to it, it does not defend itself (it does not have to say "hey, look at me I am a banana tree) it does not tempt anyone to eat from it. A tree just "IS". It does exactly what it was created to do. BE A TREE!!! and its fruit speaks for itself. It's fruit gives life, it makes strong.
The fruit (kindness, gentleness, slow to anger, slow to speak, quick to listen, long-suffering, not easily offended, joyous, peaceful, etc...{one fruit encompassing many qualities}) of a righteous man is a tree of life, and he (this tree) that gains souls (by its good fruit) is wise (wisdom is a tree of life)
We show our fruit by our works, by our actions, by our words. This is how we glorify our Father. Notice also that it does not read "fruits of a righteous man" but "fruit" singular. Fruit that emcompasses many qualities.
We are salt, light, and trees of life to the world and they should be able to see that without our saying a word.!!! We gain souls because they see the goodness of our Father working through and in us.
Mat 5:16 so let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and may glorify your Father who is in the heavens.
Charrie :-*
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Prov 11: 30 (Rotherham)
The fruit of the righteous, is a tree of life, and, he that RESCUETH souls, is wise.
does not even pertain to winning souls. What does it pertain to?
Ref to Rotherham translation courtesy of aqr with thanks.
I believe a witness to the above Scripture is as follows:
Matt 25 : 42 For I was hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink.
If we believers and followers and keepers of Gods commandments and teachings, do not yield His Spirit to the blind and deaf, but we rather withold our blessings in a self lording it over others who are not yet healed or delivered, then yes, we are useless labourers in the field that is the world. This does not mean we go about in a careless self promoting manner.
Also note the Scripture that Daywalker presented quote,
Matthew 25:45 Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.'"[/[/
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Salt is tasted and light is soundless.
We are the salt of the earth but if that salt shall loose its savour, what is it good for?
Charrie you comment that, quote
We gain souls because they see the goodness of our Father working through and in us.
Understanding comes by the Spirit of God Who ordains and gives Spiritual ears and eyes to those who can not see or hear. This happens only in Gods appointed Time. It is God who makes the pot hardened in preparation of His Wrath or softened by His Mercy according to His Plan and His Purpose to the Glory of His Will.
We do not and can not gain souls. This notion is a false teaching.
It is taught throughout the whole world of Christendom. Christians are taught they must "witness for Jesus" and in so doing will "win" some souls for Jesus.
>
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WINNING SOULS FOR JESUS?
[Two Billion Strong and Counting…?]
It is ALL OF GOD. It is not wrong to tell others of your knowledge of God and His Word. It is not, however, your responsibility to "get people saved." Only God can do that.
It is GOD who does the calling:
"For ye see your calling brethren how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen [Who? ‘GOD’] the weak things of this world to confound the things which are mighty…" (I Cor. 1:26-27).
It is GOD who does the dragging:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent Me, draw him [Gk: ‘drag him’]…" (John 6:44).
It is CHRIST Who chooses from those His Father dragged:
"Ye have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).
Eventually this will include all mankind:
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (John 12:32).
And all will respond to God’s judgments and chastisements:
"That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those in earth, and those under the earth; And that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:10-11—See also Isa. 26:9b).
And let’s not forget:
"…no man CAN say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit" (I Cor. 12:3b). http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm
All souls are Gods and His workmanship to His Glory.
Arc
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Charrie you comment that, quote
Quote
We gain souls because they see the goodness of our Father working through and in us.
Understanding comes by the Spirit of God Who ordains and gives Spiritual ears and eyes to those who can not see or hear. This happens only in Gods appointed Time. It is God who makes the pot hardened in preparation of His Wrath or softened by His Mercy according to His Plan and His Purpose to the Glory of His Will.
We do not and can not gain souls. This notion is a false teaching.
Thank you, Arc.
I had not realized just how much unlearning I must do. It is sad, indeed. No, we do not and cannot gain souls. This is NOT my job, not my responsibility. Is is enough on my plate just being transformed into our Big Brothers image.
And, until that process is completed, which will not be done until after resurrection, right ??? ??? I will strive by the grace of Yahweh to be a "good fruit bearing tree" for His glory. Man will SEE my fruit and glory HIM.
I dare NOT believe that I am capable of gaining souls for the Father while in my fleshly condition. How am I to know whom the Father chooses ???
(Isa 55:9)YLT For high have the heavens been above the earth, So high have been My ways above your ways, And My thoughts above your thoughts.
Funny thing, :D, I feel even more such a wonderful release and relief. It is just to much responsibility, it is a man-made false burden put upon the sheep.
Charrie :-*
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Pro 11:30 (CLV)
The fruit of a righteous man is a tree of life, And he who procures souls is wise."
GOD And Our Lord Jesus Christ Are The Wise Ones Here; He Jesus Christ Is Who procures (Wins) Souls With His Sacrifice (Redeeming the purchased possession).
We; including (The Whole Creation) are the purchased (Ransomed) possession.
Mat 20:28 (KJV)
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Eph 1: 13-14 (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
1Tim 2: 5-6 (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Here are three other witnesses.
Witness 1: Gal 1:4 (KJV)[/b]
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Witness 2: 1Pe 2:24 (KJV)[/b]
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Witness 3: Heb 1: 3-4 (KJV)[/b]
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
george. :)