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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Dennis Vogel on February 18, 2011, 12:58:03 PM

Title: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Dennis Vogel on February 18, 2011, 12:58:03 PM
Ray and I were talking today (he's about the same) and we were wondering about any traditional church doctrines he has not touched on. We could not think of any.

Can anyone think of and mainstream doctrines Ray has not mentioned in his writings?

There's no real meaning for this question other than my curiosity.

Thanks,

Dennis
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: mharrell08 on February 18, 2011, 01:16:45 PM
Ray and I were talking today (he's about the same) and we were wondering about any traditional church doctrines he has not touched on. We could not think of any.

Can anyone think of and mainstream doctrines Ray has not mentioned in his writings?

There's no real meaning for this question other than my curiosity.

Thanks,

Dennis


The Word of Faith movement aka 'Name It and Claim It'.

His 2008 bible study 'Sowing Spiritual Seed' only lightly touched on it, if I recall. But I haven't heard it in awhile.
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: grapehound on February 18, 2011, 05:10:17 PM

Thanks Dennis,

I understand the Mormon church have a doctrine of praying for the dead.

A 'prophetic' speaker came to my old Babylon fellowship one night and caused uproar and wrangling for weeks after, suggesting we did likewise.

I'd be interested to learn if there is any basis for this belief.

grape
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: longhorn on February 18, 2011, 05:19:32 PM
The church I use to attend had a annual Halloween trick or treat party.  Everyone, Kids and adults dress up in every kind of costume imaginable and then after the party would have worship service, unbelievable, but then again, the last time I attended that church I was stinking drunk, so I still had a pretty good o'l time.

Longhorn
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: grapehound on February 18, 2011, 05:24:22 PM
You're a Beaut' Longhorn !
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: G. Driggs on February 18, 2011, 11:08:02 PM
Singing is pretty huge in my part of the world. I get the feeling they think it makes them more spiritual. Quite often many Christians from all over will travel hundreds of miles and get together in church just to sing for a few days.

G.Driggs
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Akira329 on February 19, 2011, 12:18:50 AM
Ray and I were talking today (he's about the same) and we were wondering about any traditional church doctrines he has not touched on. We could not think of any.

Can anyone think of and mainstream doctrines Ray has not mentioned in his writings?

There's no real meaning for this question other than my curiosity.

Thanks,

Dennis


The Word of Faith movement aka 'Name It and Claim It'.

His 2008 bible study 'Sowing Spiritual Seed' only lightly touched on it, if I recall. But I haven't heard it in awhile.

I have to agree with Marques.
I couldn't find any that stuck out more than the Word of Faith Movement

Positive Confession Movement:
If I speak "spiritual enough" or "faithful words" I can have anything I want! (LOL "Name It and Claim It!)
Prosperity Movement:
Jesus was rich, I should be rich, healthy, successful in every life endeavor and if I'm not, I'm going to hell.

All the same........
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: bpenelli on February 19, 2011, 01:40:17 AM
What about the doctrine of making confessions?

Brad
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: prarrydog on February 19, 2011, 03:44:34 AM
What about the doctrine of making confessions?

Brad

Seeing as most of my family are catholic I will definitely second this one

Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on February 19, 2011, 05:36:52 AM
Ray and I were talking today (he's about the same) and we were wondering about any traditional church doctrines he has not touched on. We could not think of any.

Can anyone think of and mainstream doctrines Ray has not mentioned in his writings?

There's no real meaning for this question other than my curiosity.

Thanks,

Dennis

........... "no real meaning.....other than...curiosity" ....is the other traditional church doctrine that Ray has not touched on.


Arc
 
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: grapehound on February 19, 2011, 08:04:21 AM
The bone from the marrow Arc !
The bone from the marrow !
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Dave UK on February 19, 2011, 10:14:19 AM
Hi

Apostles prophets (the prophetic movement) and the five-fold ministry is another doctrine going around, although Ray has touched on it with his bible study on church government.

Spiritual warfare and casting out devils.

Healing and deliverance although I guess that might well come under WOF movement which has previously been mentioned.
Dave
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Kat on February 19, 2011, 01:28:44 PM


This goes along with the Catholic confession thing, I think, that many churches teach to repent or ask for forgiveness daily. I know we die daily, but it is my understanding that we are brought to repentance and receive the Holy Spirit and NOT continually 'daily' repent.

I found a site where this is explained.

Daily Repentance Stirs the Mighty Waters of Baptism

In the gift of forgiveness of sins, the Holy Spirit stirs the waters of our baptism. As He stirs the waters through daily repentance, He drowns the Old Adam and brings to the surface our New Adam. It is the New Adam, the creature of love, who daily rises to build the marriage (Eph. 4:22ff).

Beneath the keyboard of my computer are the words of Luther's Morning and Evening prayers. These prayers of repentance prod me to see my constant need to repent! Through repentance the Spirit stirs the waters of Holy Baptism with God's "yes" in Jesus Who accepts the sinner!

When Luther declared in the first of his 95 Theses that "the whole life of the Christian was to be a continual repentance," this was beautiful baptism language. It was a call to that blessed daily death called "Baptism." In Baptism we are brought into union with Christ (Rom. 6:3). It is this union which can feed the marriage union. By daily repentance of our sins, we stake to the cross the arch enemy of any marriage, our sinful nature.



Kat
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Aatos on February 19, 2011, 11:02:30 PM
I don't know, one traditional church doctrine I've yet to see Ray expand upon is the one that states that during the final judgment we'll be made to watch the lives of every single person that ever lived.

Of course, come to think of it, maybe he hasn't, because that doctrine just sounds very dumb.  (20 billion people, (random number) times 75 years (average) = WORST. MOVIE. EVAR.  or  "Daddy, where's the popcorn?"  or  "When do we get to the good parts?") 
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: geokuhns on February 20, 2011, 02:43:23 PM
Bingo?  ;D
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: octoberose on February 20, 2011, 09:50:06 PM
Well, I was thinking in my background they don't bring in musical instruments. It really is very prevalent in some 'non-denominational' churches. The belief is that we are told in Ephesians 5:19 to"Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord".. Apparently the words for hymns or spiritual songs indicate  A cappella. Also, the first century church is not believed to use instruments. It seems like a small thing, but I know people who could not in all good conscience sit in a church and sing with instruments.
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on February 20, 2011, 10:04:29 PM
To tack on, the whole "holiness" movement with it's various prohibitions.
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: believerchrist100 on February 21, 2011, 12:48:05 PM
I would agree with all the above, but also I would add:

1. Christian Patriotism
2. Loving your enemies and turn the other cheek

I know these subjects may have been covered lightly in e-mails and various studies, but I haven't heard too much on that in a while) and they would be great to be heard more in depth. But of course, this is just to answer curiousity.

Patrick
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Arion on February 21, 2011, 05:23:56 PM
1. Christian Patriotism

That is a good one.  In many conservative churches if you don't stand lock step with supporting the military and every military action this country takes then your not a real believer.  My church was like that.  And in many of the mainline churches if your not a liberal and into social justice then your not a believer either.
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Joel on February 21, 2011, 08:26:41 PM
Hey Dennis
Yes, I would like for Ray to expound on " The Spoken Word Is The Original Seed."

Thanks, Joel
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Linny on February 21, 2011, 10:31:55 PM
I would like to hear more about:
1) Patriotism and pledging to flags. At our co-op we have 3 pledges which I told my kids they didn't have to do.
American flag, Christian flag and the Bible.
2) Exorcism-since it is such a hot topic in our culture and I know people who have done them who aren't even Catholic.
Lin
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Linny on February 21, 2011, 10:35:00 PM
Oh, I have always loved Ray's quote here on politics...

"A true follower of Jesus cannot be involved in politics. Jesus certainly did not take part in any such worldly activities.
I am an "Ambassador for Christ" (I Cor 5:20). Ambassadors cannot legally take part in the politics of foreign nations.  Jesus never, ever got involved in the operations of the Roman Government over the Jews. We are never taught to "march on Washington," etc. But we are told to COME OUT OF THE WORLD and be separate. "Let the DEAD bury the dead."
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: the truth on February 21, 2011, 11:16:18 PM
i would say coming from a faith movement church. that i could never understand why they ALWAYS proclaimed that the lord was going to bring this hugh revival in these end times. and that the church was not even going to be able to hold the crowds...lol...what is that?
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: believerchrist100 on February 22, 2011, 12:24:48 AM
I would like to hear more about:
1) Patriotism and pledging to flags. At our co-op we have 3 pledges which I told my kids they didn't have to do.
American flag, Christian flag and the Bible.
2) Exorcism-since it is such a hot topic in our culture and I know people who have done them who aren't even Catholic.
Lin


I almost instantly thought of this excerpt from the 2007 Nashville Conference when I read that:
 
Somebody ask me last week about demons.  There really are these things.  I’ve had a little experience and I know some of them by name. 

My friend, Eliot from Brooklyn, we went to college together.  I was living in Mobile at the time, I had moved away for 20 years, then came back.  We were going to meet at Mt. Pocono, because there was a large church up there.  We were in Worldwide and they had a festival up there, so I was going to meet Eliot there.  It was one of those spooky nights.  By the time the last service was over and with the fellowshipping.  The sun was going down, it got dark early and it was raining and foggy. 

One of the ministers came up to Eliot and me and ask us to come to a side room, ‘We have a little problem.’  We said okay, we’ll help and went with him.  So in the room there was about 5 of us and there was this women.  She was about 75 years old, with gray hair, a little on the hefty side.  She was acting strange.  So we ask what was going on, and he said, ‘well we think Anne is having a problem.’  So we were gathered around and Anne was looking a little strange, she would snarl her face up and say, ‘I know who you are.’  This was a 75 year old woman, with gray hair and she is talking like a monster, you know.  We said, okay we know what we got here. These things would take her over and she would get violent and wanted to attack us.  There were five strong men, in our 30’s trying to hold her down. 

This was a 75 year old lady, each of us had one arm one leg, she was just violent.  We would ask, ‘who are you?’  She would just snarl and then she would give us a name.  We didn’t know, so we would just command these things to come out, in the name of Jesus Christ.  And then she would settle down and be like, ‘what are you all doing?’  We’d say, well you’re not feeling to good Anne, ‘well, what’s wrong?’  You are just not feeling good right now.  Then her face would snarl up and she would start yelling at us.  We would say, who are you?  It’s kind of comical now, I don’t think that demons are smart.  I remember that at one point there was one, I did know them all, but I started to forget them.  But this one was named Bok, and we cast out Bok.  Then we cast out a bunch of others.   So one after the other, they would just take her and we’d cast them out, then she would just settle down and be fine.  She would say, ‘what’s wrong, why am I on the floor?’  She didn’t know what was happening.  We would ask each one’s name and it was a different demon.  One time I ask who are you, and it said ‘Bouk,’ we said wait a minute we just cast you out, it said, ‘no, that was Bok, I’m Bouk.’  I’m serious. 

We were there for an hour or two, casting out demons.  Some of them just would not come out, it said, ‘the master would be very angry.’  We ask who is the master, it said, ‘ Beelzebub is the master.’  They didn’t want to come out.  Then she would settle down for a while.  Then this one, we said who are you, it said ‘no’  we said we command you in the name of Jesus Christ what is your name, ‘no’  we said we command you, you have to tell us, ‘my name is no.’  She would settle down and then another would take her over and she would want to attack us and kill us.  I tell you by the time we were done, it was enervating.  We knew we were in a different realm.  We ask them questions and we ask them about stuff, we knew about to see if they knew about it.  So this stuff is real.  This is not fairy land or the wizard of Oz, this stuff really does exist.  They're spirits in the air. 


That said, those are two things I would most certainly like to hear about too.

Patrick
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: cjwood on February 22, 2011, 05:37:10 AM
just responding to aatos; remember then we will be like Him, and to Him a day is as a thousand years and a thousands years as a day.  so, Who knows....

claudia
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: daywalker on February 22, 2011, 02:31:47 PM
1. Christian Patriotism

That is a good one.  In many conservative churches if you don't stand lock step with supporting the military and every military action this country takes then your not a real believer.  My church was like that.  And in many of the mainline churches if your not a liberal and into social justice then your not a believer either.


Aw, yes.. the never-ending Crusades... Different disguises, different names, different reasonings, ...yet it's all the same... "Christians" vs "Muslims" everywhere you turn these days

And unless you support killing enemies, you're an evil, unpatriotic and horrible person... ??? :( :'(
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Linny on February 23, 2011, 01:53:23 PM
I thought of something else last night. Wondering if anyone knows where Ray may have talked about this.
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I recall the church teaching is that the Holy Spirit came to live inside us only after Pentecost. I'd be very interested in what Ray has to say about this from his own studies since I now question everything I've ever been taught.
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: walt123 on February 24, 2011, 03:07:32 AM
Hello,Dennis

I was listening to the audio tape,biblestudy April 07,which ray said he was going
to write about the law of moses,and that the law is spiritual,I guess in more detail.
Did ray ever write on just this subject?
Walt.

Re: Dates To Remember . . . . . . . . . . Biblestudy April 2007
Now I allowed someone in our midst to influence me in a wrong way, because I didn't have time to look at these things. I didn't have time to study every word and every phrase, every sentence, every verse, every doctrine in the Bible, all at the same time in great detail. This is just unfathomable, so I had somebody that we allowed to put some material on our site even. Because I thought some of it was correct, even though I had a couple of problems with some things. I mean the law paper that is no longer up there, I had a problem with that before it was put up and I let it slide, to my own chagrin. Because I mentioned at the time, but you are not covering in here the aspect that the law is spiritual. The law of Moses is spiritual!

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual

It was, ‘no Ray, no that is talking about the spiritual law is spiritual…’ You know I let it slide. I corrected a lot of stuff in that paper and some of that stuff in that paper was mine anyway. That long chart of the Old Testament and the New Testament, the old covenant and the new covenant, the differences, it was several pages of material. But I let that slide.
 
         
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 11:11:01 AM by Kat »       

THE LAW OF MOSES


But when I write about the law one day, I will have to do a paper on the law and trust me you are going to see Romans 7:14. “…we know that the law…” What law? It’s mentioned about ten times in that chapter… “the law of Moses…” “the law of Moses…” “the law of Moses…” “For we know that the law is spiritual…” Oh but we are not talking about the law of Moses? Oh yes we are, it didn’t changes gears there in mid stream.

Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: believerchrist100 on February 25, 2011, 02:17:33 PM
What about the doctrine of making confessions?

Brad

Seeing as most of my family are catholic I will definitely second this one



And since my family is Catholic, I'll third that one and maybe the doctrines of Mary's immaculate conception, assumption, and perpetual virginity too. 
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Craig on February 25, 2011, 02:23:31 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/24/cnnheroes.sawo.hiv/index.html?hpt=T2

Without discussing what her current condition is (spiritually and physically) it is sad how this belief has hurt so many people.
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: mharrell08 on February 25, 2011, 02:44:55 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/24/cnnheroes.sawo.hiv/index.html?hpt=T2

Without discussing what her current condition is (spiritually and physically) it is sad how this belief has hurt so many people.


Excerpt from article:

"The church must change its attitude," she said. "HIV is not a moral issue. It's a virus."


That pretty much says it all.
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Linny on February 25, 2011, 09:03:48 PM
Thanks for sharing that Craig.
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Rene on February 26, 2011, 01:33:02 PM
Ray and I were talking today (he's about the same) and we were wondering about any traditional church doctrines he has not touched on. We could not think of any.

Can anyone think of and mainstream doctrines Ray has not mentioned in his writings?

There's no real meaning for this question other than my curiosity.

Thanks,

Dennis


The Word of Faith movement aka 'Name It and Claim It'.
His 2008 bible study 'Sowing Spiritual Seed' only lightly touched on it, if I recall. But I haven't heard it in awhile.


Now that I am paying more attention to what is being said to me by those who are still deep into Bablyon, I have to agree with Marques that this "Name It and Claim It" doctrine is being spewed constantly by them.  It has nothing to do with spiritual growth, it seems to only pertain to the gaining of physical possessions or higher positions in this world.  It is a huge part of the "prosperity" ministry. 

René
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Foxx on February 26, 2011, 08:06:29 PM
A little off topic but there is a fascinating documentary about HIV and AIDS that will most likely open your eyes to many truths about the disease. It's called "House Of Numbers"

This is a link to a clip of the film and in it the discoverer of HIV, Dr. Luc Montagnier, is being interviewed here. This isn't just some random person, this is the guy who was researching this from the very beginning of it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQoNW7lOnT4


Just thought I would share. Speaking of which it would be interesting to hear some more on healing and diseases. Unless I missed something on the site but I would like to learn more about the legitamacy about it. Jesus speaks of using the holy spirit to cast out demons, spirits, healing etc. and that WE should do these things but I don't know if this meant for us or specifically for the disciples to whom is was talking. I'm just wondering that.

Oh and one more thing. I hear preachers saying that these prophets from the old testament had the Holy Spirit speaking to them but am I wrong is saying that is inaccurate?
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: dave on February 27, 2011, 12:24:53 AM
What about "alter calls," I have not found a foundation in the Word for alter calls.
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Dennis Vogel on February 27, 2011, 01:40:45 AM
The rest of our conversation was that everything of any consequence the church teaches (not says) is 180 degrees opposite of the truth.

My question to Ray was "is there anything of any consequence the church teaches you have not taught on?" We both thought it over for a few minutes and could not come up with anything. But there are some things to think about here.

The point I was trying to make is the truth is always the opposite of what the church as a whole teaches.

If you have questions and want to know the truth, it's usually the opposite of what the church teaches (not says, e.g., they say Christ died for our sins, but they teach He never really died but was preaching in Hell).

This to me is a miracle and constantly amazes me.
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Craig on February 27, 2011, 10:05:54 AM
Wasn't there a post or paper on that.  Something like the bible says this but the church says that?   I can't find it, anyone remember where it is?

Craig
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: mharrell08 on February 27, 2011, 10:23:19 AM
Wasn't there a post or paper on that.  Something like the bible says this but the church says that?   I can't find it, anyone remember where it is?

Craig


Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 2 (http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html):

THEY SPEAK WITH FORKED TONGUE

Most all Christian theologians would claim to believe the first statement of Scriptural Truth that I present below, especially when I cite a Scripture verse with it, but they will then contradict and refuse to teach the second statement of Truth. Here are a few examples:

Do they believe the fire in I Cor.3:15 burns mans’ works, but not the man himself? Yes.

But do they teach that this same fire in Rev.20:15 also burns works, not the man? No.

Do they believe that God is the Creator of ALL? Yes.

But do they teach that God created EVIL as He says in (Isa. 45:7)? No.

Do they believe that God is absolutely and totally sovereign (Eph. 1:11)? Yes.

But do they teach that God exercises sovereignty over man’s supposed "free" will? No.

Do they believe that Jesus Christ IS the Saviour of the whole world (I Jn 4:14)? Yes.

But do they teach that Jesus Christ will SAVE the whole world? No.

Do they believe that presently Christ only has immortality (I Tim. 6:16)? Yes.

But do they teach the truth therefore that men’s souls are mortal and not immortal? No.

Do they believe that the original manuscripts of God’s Word were inerrant? Yes.

But do they teach us that the King James translation, which they say is "inerrant" has gone through THOUSANDS of error corrections since 1611? No.

Do they believe that the soul that sins shall DIE (Ezek. 18:4)? Yes.

But do they teach that souls of deceased sinners are actually DEAD? No.

Do they believe there are many cults today that need exposing? Yes.

But do they teach that Christendom, by its OWN definitions, is also a cult? No.

Do they believe that Sodom is "suffering the vengeance of eternal [aeonian] fire? Yes.

But do they teach that Sodom will be restored to their former estate (Ezek. 16:55)? No.

Do they believe in a future resurrection of dead people back to life (John 5:29)? Yes.

But do they teach that a resurrection is imperative for dead people to live again? No.

Do they believe the first half of I Cor. 15:22 that "For as in Adam ALL die?" Yes.

But do they teach the last half, "even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive?" No.

Do they believe that "...the end of the world [Gk: aion -- age]" ends in Mat. 24:3? Yes.

But do they teach that this same "aion -- age" in Matt. 25:41 & 46 will also end. No.

Do they believe that Jn 3:13 & Acts 2:34 are truthful Scripture (II Tim. 3:16)? Yes.

But do they teach this truth that "NO man," including David, has gone to heaven? No.

Do they believe ALL God purposed, spoke, and willed (Isa. 46:10-11), He will do? Yes.

But do they teach that God’s "will" to save all, I Tim. 2:4, etc., will be done? No.

Do they believe that Satan lied when he told Eve, "thou shalt not surely die?" Yes.

But do they teach the truth that sinners really do DIE at death as God has stated? No.

Do they believe that the Apocryphal books do not belong in the Bible? Yes.

But do they teach us that the 1611 so-called "inerrant" King James Bible contained fourteen such books, including "Tobit," "Judith," "The idol Bel and the Dragon"? No.

Do they believe that Christ is totally responsibility for our salvation? Yes.

But do they teach that "no man can" come to Christ of himself (John 6:44)? No.

Do they believe that Satan is the greatest sinner of all? Yes.

But do they teach Jn. 8:44 which states that Satan "sinned from the beginning?" No.

Do they believe Christ really died for the sins of the world? Yes.

But do they teach that Jesus Christ was dead when they placed Him in the tomb? No.

Do they believe the many Scriptures that liken death to "sleep?" Yes.

But do they teach that dead people are unconscious, "sleeping" till resurrection? No.

Do they believe that the last enemy to be destroyed [Gk: abolished] is death? Yes.

But do they teach that ALL death, including the second death, will be abolished? No.

Do they believe that all things are possible with God (Mark 10:27)? Yes.

But do they teach that it is possible for God to save nonbelievers after they die? No.

Do they believe that every tongue in heaven and earth will confess Jesus as LORD? Yes.

But do they teach that the Holy Spirit inspires this sincere voluntary act (I Cor. 12:3)? No.

Do they believe that good and evil are both in the same tree of knowledge? Yes

But do they teach that good and evil both come from the same root source? No.

Do they believe that God absolutely "knows all" (I John 3:20)? Yes.

But do they teach that God knows in advance ALL who will reject Christ? No.

Do they believe that God’s love will never fail (I Cor. 13:8 )? Yes.

But do they teach that God’s love will never fail in saving the world He loves? No.

Do they believe the apostles spoke in foreign languages in Acts 2:4-11? Yes.

But do they teach that of the hundreds of thousands who claim to speak in tongues today, not one of them can speak in multiple languages which they did not already study? No.

Do they believe that the masses did not understand Christ’s parables (Mat. 13:13)? Yes.

But do they teach that Christ purposely didn’t want them to understand, (Vs. 14-17)? No.

Do they believe the Old Covenant contained the Ten Commandments (Deut.4:12)? Yes.

But do they teach a New Covenant which contains a much higher law (Heb. 8:8-9)? No.

Do they believe that God created all the spirits and messengers of heaven? Yes.

But do they teach that God also created Satan who was always His adversary? No.

Do they believe that loving our enemies means doing good and not evil to them? Yes.

But do they teach that God will never subject His enemies to eternal torture and evil? No.

There seems to be no end to the Scriptural contradictions of Christian beliefs. But we can learn from their mistakes. It is good for us that God makes us dig deep for the precious gems of His word. It really is like searching for hidden treasure. And I have never found a hidden treasure in God’s Word that has disappointed me. Each new discovery brings more appreciation for God and His plan of salvation for all.
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on February 27, 2011, 10:33:51 AM

I love this concluding sentence Ray writes after noting so many yes, no, contrasts and then he says with profound authority and Truth : Each new discovery brings more appreciation for God and His plan of salvation for all.   :)

Arc
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Craig on February 27, 2011, 10:44:25 AM
That was one Marques, but I don't think that was the one I had in mind.
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Linny on February 27, 2011, 12:33:02 PM
Craig, how about this one?

What Traditional Christians Say… What They Really Mean…
“There’s nothing you must do to be saved……” “Here’s what you must do to be saved:”
“You are absolutely, totally helpless to save yourself.” “You must make a wise decision in order to be saved.”
“God controls all things.” “God doesn’t control man’s free will.”
“We can’t boast about going to heaven.” “If we go to hell, it’s our own fault.”
“Love never faileth!” “Love can’t overcome human stubbornness.”
“Men are in bondage to sin.” “Men are free to choose Christ.”
“Grace is unmerited favor…” “… given only to those who merit it with faith and obedience.”
“GOD IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND (1 Tim. 4:10)…” “… except for about ninety percent of them.”
“GOD’S LOVE IS UNCONDITIONAL…” “… as long as you meet certain conditions.”
“GOD’S WILL IS UNOPPOSABLE…” “… except by the sinner.”
“Salvation is not a thing of chance.” “There is no second chance to be saved.”
“WE HAVE GOOD NEWS FOR YOU!” “Most of mankind will perish forever.”
“GOD LOVES YOU!” “… as long as you love Him.”
“Christ died for all sin…” “… except the sin of not believing that He died for all sin.”
“The Good Shepherd seeks the lost sheep until he finds it!” “The Good Shepherd seeks until it’s too late.”
“God’s justice was satisfied in the cross of Christ.” “God’s justice demands eternal torment or annihilation.

Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Craig on February 27, 2011, 01:54:02 PM
Yes Linny where was that?

Craig
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Akira329 on February 28, 2011, 12:35:29 AM
Craig I'm not sure if Ray used this quote.
But I did find it here:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8140.0.html

Seems it was from a Mike Miller but his website seems lacking a lot of content including this quote.
Nonetheless, nice quotes!
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Linny on February 28, 2011, 05:20:20 PM
Interesting Akira. I was going to say I didn't know where I had found it as I am a cut and paster. I find nuggets here or from the BT site when I read and I save them in my files. That was one I had liked but do not remember where I had gotten it but it is in my Ray files.
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: believerchrist100 on February 28, 2011, 05:53:51 PM
Craig, how about this one?

What Traditional Christians Say… What They Really Mean…
“There’s nothing you must do to be saved……” “Here’s what you must do to be saved:”
“You are absolutely, totally helpless to save yourself.” “You must make a wise decision in order to be saved.”
“God controls all things.” “God doesn’t control man’s free will.”
“We can’t boast about going to heaven.” “If we go to hell, it’s our own fault.”
“Love never faileth!” “Love can’t overcome human stubbornness.”
“Men are in bondage to sin.” “Men are free to choose Christ.”
“Grace is unmerited favor…” “… given only to those who merit it with faith and obedience.”
“GOD IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND (1 Tim. 4:10)…” “… except for about ninety percent of them.”
“GOD’S LOVE IS UNCONDITIONAL…” “… as long as you meet certain conditions.”
“GOD’S WILL IS UNOPPOSABLE…” “… except by the sinner.”
“Salvation is not a thing of chance.” “There is no second chance to be saved.”
“WE HAVE GOOD NEWS FOR YOU!” “Most of mankind will perish forever.”
“GOD LOVES YOU!” “… as long as you love Him.”
“Christ died for all sin…” “… except the sin of not believing that He died for all sin.”
“The Good Shepherd seeks the lost sheep until he finds it!” “The Good Shepherd seeks until it’s too late.”
“God’s justice was satisfied in the cross of Christ.” “God’s justice demands eternal torment or annihilation.



This is an excellent one, it really states in a nutshell the doubletalk of traditional Christians quite clearly.  I remember first reading it on Gary Arimault's Tentmaker website a couple of years ago before I found Bible Truths and had been just introduced to the doctrine of the Reconciliation of All.
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Akira329 on March 01, 2011, 12:00:07 AM
Interesting Akira. I was going to say I didn't know where I had found it as I am a cut and paster. I find nuggets here or from the BT site when I read and I save them in my files. That was one I had liked but do not remember where I had gotten it but it is in my Ray files.

I do the same thing Linny!
I have a BT folder with some threads that I liked!

Antaiwan
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: Myms on March 03, 2011, 02:03:26 PM
I don't think this comes under 'traditional church doctrines', possibly 'new fangled ideas'. Has anyone heard of 'Harp and Bowl' style of worship? I think it started in the US and has spread to several countries including here in the UK. Churches involved quote this: 'The ‘Harp and Bowl’ style of worship is not new but a restoration of what once existed here on earth and is now going on around the throne of God now. In 1 Chron. 15 –16, King David established praise and worship mixed with music and prayers in the Tabernacle of David. During his reign, there was constant praise and worship going on twenty-four hours, seven days a week before the Ark of the Covenant for over thirty years. In Revelation 4 and 5, this style of worship is going on around the throne of God where the twenty-four elders fall before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and bowl, which represent the worship and prayers of the saints.

Is this going on around the throne of God now? I think Ray would say that Rev 4 & 5 has a spiritual meaning and is symbolic.

M
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: dave on March 03, 2011, 09:54:57 PM
The rest of our conversation was that everything of any consequence the church teaches (not says) is 180 degrees opposite of the truth.

My question to Ray was "is there anything of any consequence the church teaches you have not taught on?" We both thought it over for a few minutes and could not come up with anything. But there are some things to think about here.

The point I was trying to make is the truth is always the opposite of what the church as a whole teaches.

If you have questions and want to know the truth, it's usually the opposite of what the church teaches (not says, e.g., they say Christ died for our sins, but they teach He never really died but was preaching in Hell).

This to me is a miracle and constantly amazes me.

Yes, I agree
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: daywalker on March 04, 2011, 08:14:32 PM
The rest of our conversation was that everything of any consequence the church teaches (not says) is 180 degrees opposite of the truth.

My question to Ray was "is there anything of any consequence the church teaches you have not taught on?" We both thought it over for a few minutes and could not come up with anything. But there are some things to think about here.

The point I was trying to make is the truth is always the opposite of what the church as a whole teaches.

If you have questions and want to know the truth, it's usually the opposite of what the church teaches (not says, e.g., they say Christ died for our sins, but they teach He never really died but was preaching in Hell).

This to me is a miracle and constantly amazes me.

Yes, I agree


No kidding, me too!

It's one thing for an average church-goer that isn't really that familiar with the Bible (like my former self) to believe in so many false teachings; but when I hear someone talking about the Bible and quoting lots of verses--clearly showing that they are familiar with it and have spent some time studying it--yet they have no clue as to what they are talking about, it boggles my mind! Just earlier today, this friend of a friend was here at my work and I stumbled into their conversation, and this guy was quoting verse after verse, yet all the stuff he was saying in-between the verses was unscriptural and quite frankly stupid (nothing personal against the guy, he seemed really cool, but he was talking nonsense). It took everything that I had to keep my cool and not say anything or laugh as it just wasn't the proper time or place.


....Anyway, I am really looking forward to the article and video for Ray's upcoming bible study  ;)
Title: Re: Traditional Church Doctrines?
Post by: AK4 on March 11, 2011, 06:02:16 PM
I havent read all the way through this thread yet so if it was mentioned already sorry.

But how about the doctrine of "Jesus being MY personal Saviour" vs Jesus actually being the Saviour of the whole world.  Ray does touch on this "personal saviour" teaching but.....

Actually, I take it back, Ray did fully tackle this subject.  The thing is as we also have to rightly divide the word, even with all of Rays writings we have to sometimes do the same (rightly divide his teachings) meaning Ray covers this doctrine and others throughout all his writings but some of it is here and some of it is over there or as the scriptures say "here a little, there a little, precept upon precept".

I remember in one of Rays videos he was saying that what he was trying to teach us is the basic principals or foundations and then after that everything should fall in place if we just learn these.  And that is what he actually has done, for instance just off the top of my head i can think of several different places where Ray maybe didnt directly "focus" on the personal saviour teaching but he did teach against this doctrine.  At least to me throughout the LOF series, the other writings on the site, the emails, the videos, Ray has pretty much hit it all. (i think ;))

In Jesus
Anthony