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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Gina on May 27, 2012, 03:36:33 AM

Title: Time and Eternity
Post by: Gina on May 27, 2012, 03:36:33 AM
November 2008 Bible Study Time and Eternity
http://bible-truths.com/video/study113008.wmv (http://bible-truths.com/video/study113008.wmv)

Hey everybody.

This is my favorite study that Ray did, next to the letters to Hagee and Kennedy and a thousand other things on the site. lol    And the reason why is, he taught me the difference between time and timeless/ageless.  I was taught (in the church--not by Ray) to believe that there is no time in eternity.  But without time, there is no movement.  When things are in motion, you have "time."  But when there is no time, there's no motion, no movement and nothing changes.  And I thought about what that really meant and I got scared.  Because think of the implication.  No time, no movement.  We don't do a n y t h i n g.  Gee, how exciting.  And that's what "Pleasures on every side" means?

I remember writing Chris R, way back in 2005/6 and I was mad (I could tell him anything - he was my good friend and confidant).  I said, What is this esoteric mumbo jumbo?!  If there is no time in eternity, what will we be doing for all eternity, twiddling our thumbs?!!  (Well, no, because even twiddling our thumbs means there would be movement and therefore there would be time, but there is no time in eternity according to the churched.)

Oh, God!  And just got to where I was like, So what if there isn't any hell! That kind of eternity (without any movement -- hence, we're not doing anything) is going to be as boring as hell !  LOL 

And I left the forum.  I was that angry.

Well, anyway, I don't know, but I get the feeling ChrisR must have written or spoken to Ray about what I said and lo and behold here is this study!

And I look at Ray speaking and he's just as annoyed about the whole issues as I was, but I couldn't figure it out, but he did! 

And I was like, YEAHHHH!!!  I get to do something in eternity!! Yay!!  (I hate being bored.)

Thank God he gave Ray the brains and the interest to break down the words time and less.  Ray made it so simple, yet because we're taught in church to never question the leaders, er uhhh... God, I never questioned it.

It's like, um, helloooo?  THAT'S WHY WE FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT?!  THAT'S MY REWARD????!!  Gee thanksssss.

Thank God for Ray.  He's like a warrior, to me -- fighting these huge, major battles, freeing me (all of us) up.  So cool.  I mean, I was really scared and angry about that subject. 

But now, I'm glad because movement means I'll be able to do something for eternity and not frozen like Han Solo in Star Wars; hence, not bored out of my mind.  I'm amazed that God heard and answered that major prayer of mine.  God is so good to me.

Anyway, that's all.   ;D
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: adiamondintheson on May 27, 2012, 01:12:44 PM
Do you have a link for that particular one you're speaking of....
Thanks... and I'm glad it was such a blessing for you
Connie
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: Gina on May 27, 2012, 01:44:41 PM
Hey, Connie

Try the link at the top of my post (it's a wmv file).

If that doesn't work click the link below.  It's under the "Ray's Videos" thread entitled "November 2008 Bible Study Time and Eternity"

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8227.0.html (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8227.0.html)

It's been transcribed, too. :)
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: adiamondintheson on May 27, 2012, 06:36:52 PM
DUH.... How could I not see that... ?!?!?!?!
(smiles)...
Thanks, Gina
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: Gina on May 28, 2012, 05:09:35 AM
No worries!  Been there, still doing that.  hehe

My pleasure, Connie. :)
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: Revilonivek on May 28, 2012, 11:06:56 AM
Where do I find the link to the transcrpition  for time and eternity video?  I can't find it? Please help?
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: Rene on May 28, 2012, 11:44:20 AM
Where do I find the link to the transcrpition  for time and eternity video?  I can't find it? Please help?


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10538.0.html
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: Gina on May 28, 2012, 05:27:22 PM
You're very welcome. 

You, I know, will thoroughly enjoy this!  You will be enthralled with what passion he expresses how inane (couldn't be a better word to describe this devilish doctrine of demonic, delusional doo-doo  ;D) this ridiculous idea could be.  He's so right on. 

But you'll have to back up the thingy ;) a lot in some places if you're anything like me, because it's quite the "web" the theologians have weaved and he's had to untangle it all.  Not an easy task and, as with everything else, it thrills me to see him do it.

Enjoy!
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: adiamondintheson on May 28, 2012, 08:16:58 PM
Den & I just went through this video today.... and I'm sure we heard it before.. but I swear, you could listen 50 times, and maybe glean a little bit more each time.  It's unbelievable to think of the MIND that God gave that man!!!!  I don't know of another individual who thinks like L Ray... You better not be half asleep... cause it'll fly right over you.

And Kat...
We would like to say a special thank you for all the time and effort that you put into transcribing all of those videos and tapes.  It had to be very time consuming... and you have broken out comments and scriptures so well... that we don't have to wonder where Rays comments start or end in relation to his reading or quoting other peoples writings.  Excellent job there little lady.  I trust God will reward all of you who worked and stood by Ray so diligently through all of what God had assigned for him to do!!  Somehow I don't think He's finished with any of you yet.  It's AWESOME!!!!

Even though Ray is gone... we are so blessed by all of the work that has been documented.  He didn't just read and know this stuff for himself... but made sure it got written and recorded, and you all have helped him from there to get it out to all of us. 

God bless you all and us as we continue to study and learn more of His will and His ways...
Connie
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: Gina on May 28, 2012, 10:30:48 PM
Den & I just went through this video today.... and I'm sure we heard it before.. but I swear, you could listen 50 times, and maybe glean a little bit more each time.  It's unbelievable to think of the MIND that God gave that man!!!!  I don't know of another individual who thinks like L Ray... You better not be half asleep... cause it'll fly right over you.

And Kat...
We would like to say a special thank you for all the time and effort that you put into transcribing all of those videos and tapes.  It had to be very time consuming... and you have broken out comments and scriptures so well... that we don't have to wonder where Rays comments start or end in relation to his reading or quoting other peoples writings.  Excellent job there little lady.  I trust God will reward all of you who worked and stood by Ray so diligently through all of what God had assigned for him to do!!  Somehow I don't think He's finished with any of you yet.  It's AWESOME!!!!

Even though Ray is gone... we are so blessed by all of the work that has been documented.  He didn't just read and know this stuff for himself... but made sure it got written and recorded, and you all have helped him from there to get it out to all of us. 

God bless you all and us as we continue to study and learn more of His will and His ways...
Connie

That's so right.
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: whyisthatso on May 28, 2012, 10:57:35 PM
The physical creation is dependent on time, but time itself is not dependent on the creation. The physical universe is in contstant motion, from the smallest electron to the largest galaxy.  The vast expanse of the cosmos is such that it defies time, as we know it, and the only way that we humans will ever see it is to become something apart from the physical.   There is a "time" that exist apart from the physical creation, in the spiritual realm. But time there is not like it is here, it is altogether something different. The Father was not exagerating when He said that a day was like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day with Him.
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: doug on May 29, 2012, 12:09:24 AM
The physical creation is dependent on time, but time itself is not dependent on the creation. The physical universe is in contstant motion, from the smallest electron to the largest galaxy.  The vast expanse of the cosmos is such that it defies time, as we know it, and the only way that we humans will ever see it is to become something apart from the physical.   There is a "time" that exist apart from the physical creation, in the spiritual realm. But time there is not like it is here, it is altogether something different. The Father was not exagerating when He said that a day was like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day with Him.

I believe you are correct, whyisthatso

Most bibles only translate what we say as "time" in only one meaning.... time.  Whereas God's time is Kairos (time) and He has created the universe in Chronos (time) for a timekeeper to all mankind.

Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: Gina on May 29, 2012, 12:49:22 AM
Welcome Whyisthatso! :)

I'm not fighting the good fight just so I can see the vast expanse of the cosmos and how it all operates.  I'll be bored to tears in a few eons for sure!  :-D

I can't speak for everyone here but I'm aiming to:


1.  Let go of the vast expanse of my own ego.  (No, really.)


2.  Believe, obey, be purified by and know God, and love my neighbor as myself; and


3.  Reign with Christ to undo the works that the devil has done. 

Strange as it sounds to some (like my friend Gail who doesn't believe as we do), I imagine and look forward to a time when people like Hitler are freed from the law of sin and death and begin to feel truly sorry for their sins (like Judas felt sorry for his and we for ours) and go on to be healed and obey and worship God.

Anyway, that's what I want to see.  But that's me.

Glad you joined us. :)

Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: whyisthatso on May 29, 2012, 11:00:13 AM
Thanks Gina, for the warm welcome. And may I be so bold as to say that I didnt join you, but He brought me here.  Of course we all seek after His righteousness in order to be in His kingdom. And that is the purpose for which He has called us. His "kingdom" ( king's domain or dominion )  speaks of His government, and above all that the Father does, He rules, He governs. And as His children that is what we will do, beginning here on earth.  Some might say that they have no inclination or desire to rule or govern over anything, but think about it for a minute. Even now in this flesh we do so, as a father, a mother, an employee, etc.  And if nothing else, we even have the limited ability to govern ourselves to a point.   No matter what we do, we cannot get around it.  Its all about government, always has been and always will be.   But in seeking first His Kingdom and His righteousness, we should always remember something so as not to go astray,  " the greatest among you will be servant of all "
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: Gina on May 29, 2012, 05:09:02 PM
Thanks Gina, for the warm welcome. And may I be so bold as to say that I didnt join you, but He brought me here.  Of course we all seek after His righteousness in order to be in His kingdom. And that is the purpose for which He has called us. His "kingdom" ( king's domain or dominion )  speaks of His government, and above all that the Father does, He rules, He governs. And as His children that is what we will do, beginning here on earth.  Some might say that they have no inclination or desire to rule or govern over anything, but think about it for a minute. Even now in this flesh we do so, as a father, a mother, an employee, etc.  And if nothing else, we even have the limited ability to govern ourselves to a point.   No matter what we do, we cannot get around it.  Its all about government, always has been and always will be.   But in seeking first His Kingdom and His righteousness, we should always remember something so as not to go astray,  " the greatest among you will be servant of all "

 :P ::)  After you, sir, after you....   ;D ;)
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: whyisthatso on May 30, 2012, 12:03:36 AM
Sorry Gina, I did not mean to be overbearing in any way. Please forgive me.
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: Gina on May 30, 2012, 12:07:54 AM
No problem.  It's just that Ray's body is barely cold. 

I'm going to go listen to an audio of Ray's.............

See ya.
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: patmokgoko on May 30, 2012, 04:31:42 AM
While still at it, did either Hagee or Kennedy bother to write back to Ray after that Ray had refutted them?
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: doug on May 30, 2012, 03:45:19 PM
While still at it, did either Hagee or Kennedy bother to write back to Ray after that Ray had refutted them?

I believe this link will answer your question patmokgoko:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11612.0.html
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: Dave in Tenn on May 30, 2012, 04:49:25 PM
My favorite bit.  The Scriptures don't just say that His Government shall never end, but that the INCREASE of His Government shall never end.  INCREASE is CHANGE.  Nothing static, and everything only increasingly wonderful.    

"Now one of my favorite verses, because this verse says very little and yet it says a lot.  We could meditate for some time on this.

Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting (aonian) Father, The Prince of Peace.
v. 7  Of the increase of [His] government and peace [there shall be] no endÖ

Dr. Strong gives a very brief definition there, it just says that word mean increase.  But he uses the English word so letís see what the definition is, because this word is not contradictory like these time words are all contradicting.

American Heritage
Increase - to become greater or larger, to multiply, reproduce, to make greater or larger.  The act or process of increasing.  The amount or rate by which something is increased.
Synonyms: increase, expand, enlarge, extend, augment, multiply, these verbs to mean to make or become greater or larger, sometimes suggesting steady growth.  To extend, to lengthen in space or time or to broaden in range. 

All of these lengthen, multiply, increasing, growing when will that stop?  J. Preston Eby, at the end of the eons and all these other turkeys, at the end of the eons when eternity takes over.  What do the Scriptures say?  Never.  ďNo end.Ē

Now it would be nice if we had some twenty or thirty specifics about this, but we donít.  But think about what it is saying, increase, maturing, growing, expanding, becoming bigger, larger, greater in quality, quantity.  Isnít that a marvelous teaching!  All of these Christians reject it.  We are going to be like Han Solo frozen in a block of metal, for all eternity.  There will be no changing, nothing will happen.  Thatís what they said is the definition of eternity, nothing happens.  Unbelievable!   

Letís see what Webster has to say about that.
Increase - progressively greater as in size; to make greater, enlarge, augment, multiply; mean to make something greater, increased, used transitively implies progressive growth in size amount or intensity; addition or enlargement in size, extent or quantity; something that is added to an original stock; augmentation, growth, etc.

All of this growth and getting bigger and better and grander, when does it end?  Never.  We are told these things only happen in time and there will be no time.  What a damnable doctrine.  How marvelous is Godís word."




Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: Gina on May 30, 2012, 05:21:39 PM
That's so cool, Dave.

hehe "J. Preston Eby...  and all these other turkeys,"  I love it.  (That's such an east coast expression.)
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: servias on June 01, 2012, 03:03:03 AM
From The "Time and Eternity".  Just watched this a couple of days ago and this quote is nagging at me....

"Made from what?  From something.  What?  Things that donít appear.  THINGS.  Are there things that donít appear?  Yes.  Is God a thing?  Yes God is a thing, I think that Heís a thing more than He is a person.  But some people fault me for not suggesting that God is a person.  But He is some Ďthingí and the creation is out of Him."

Has Ray gone into any more details on this?  I've kind of thought the same thing before but I can't explain it.  Is God Physical too?  I've always wondered if God IS everything?  Hope somebody can show me some scripture on this. 

Dan
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: Gina on June 01, 2012, 03:51:01 AM
This might help.  See if you can figure out what's being said:

Nor does God create things out of NOTHING:

    "...IN [Greek is Ďiní not Ďbyí] Him [Christ] is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth..." (Col. 1:16).

    "For OUT [the Greek is Ďoutí not Ďofí] of Him and THROUGH Him and FOR [Greek is Ďforí not Ďtoí] is ALL" (Rom. 11:36).

So creation is "IN Christ," but "OUT of God." Not out of "nothing." The universe consists of the things of Godís already eternally existing SELF. God is SPIRIT (John 4:24). And what is matter but invisible spiritual power and energy

    "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that THINGS which are seen [physical matter] were not made of things [were they then made of nothing? NO] which DO APPEAR" (Heb. 11:3).

There it is. God made everything out of things that DO NOT APPEAR [invisible things] not out of things that do appear [physical things], and this is because GOD HIMSELF IS INVISIBLE!


http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html (http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html)
(Bold and underline added.)

Would it be safe to conclude that Ray was saying that he believes God is (at least in part aside from Spirit) invisible energy and power?  Maybe that doesn't sit well with some people, but I have no problem with that.  Even so, would that change anything that we know are the right things to do?

Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: Kat on June 01, 2012, 10:37:12 AM

Hi Dan,

That is something I have pondered on many times, this question about who/what is God the Father. Something that has occurred to me is when you consider that God has always existed, well would this eternal being/thing actually be able to be contained into a singular shape/form? To me I do not see how that could be possible. He is eternal and all the physical and even spiritual things in the heavens and on earth were His ideas, He is the ultimate designer of all the things that hold a shape or form. Though of course the Father gave this task of creation to His Son so that "all things were created through Him and for Him." But when it says that "He/Jesus is THE image of the invisible God," would/could that mean Jesus is the only image the invisible God has?

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Here is an excerpt from the 06 Mobile Conference 'WHAT IS "THE FATHER'S WILL?'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3720.0 -------

So letís think about this a little bit, who is the Father?  In Him we live and breath and have our being.  Liken the ocean to the Spirit of God, and liken us to the fish.  The fish are 95% water, the ocean is in the fish, and the fish are in the ocean, get it.
A bird has very porous bones, because they have to be very light.  It flies in the heavens, it breaths fast, because it needs strength and oxygen.  So the air (which is like the Spirit of God, which is what he calls it in the NT, Greek word for spirit is pheuma), the expanse is even called heaven, where the bird flies, and liken the air to the Spirit of God.  The bird has air in him and is flying through the air.

Now this is what the scripture say, we are in God and God is in us.  So, get it out of your head that God is a man, sitting on a stone throne, like Abraham Lincoln in Washington D.C., an old man with gray hair.  God is right here, it (Bible) says so, we have to just listen to the words.

God is Spirit, it also says God is invisible, you canít see Him, not literally.  We can see Him in Spirit, as in our heart, in our mind, our soul, our spirit, in our intermost being.
 
The thing that makes us different from plants and other animals, is we can see God.  Iím trying to help you right now, to see God.  So when you leave here, you will see God in a way you didnít, when you walked in here.  If God opens it up to you, I can only tell you, but God must open it up for you to grasp it.
 
God is here, not here because we are here, but He was here before we got here and Heíll still be after we leave.  Because this desk is here and this desk has it cohesion in Jesus Christ.  It is through Jesus Christ that this desk holds together or it would fall apart.  It takes energy and power, what is the source of the power, Jesus Christ, which comes from the Father and itís passed off out of Him.  One Father, one God, all and everything is out of Him.  GOD IS ALMIGHTY!

What did Jesus say when He left His apostles and vanished out of their sight.
 
He said, ďall power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth,Ē (Matt. 28:18).
 
Thatís why He has come, Heís not the Father, but Heís God and He possesses all power in heaven and earth.  By being the One, who possesses all power in heaven and earth, He is God.  He didnít have all power in heaven and earth from all eternity, it was given to Him.  One God, everything is out of that God.  Weíre in Him and Heís in us, because Heís Spirit.  Not a Spirit, in some geographical location.  The reason God knows everything, is in all places at all times, is because thatís where He is.  Heís Spirit and He refers to Himself as Spirit.  My Spirit is here, there and everywhere.

David was inspired to write, where can I go to get away from you God, up to heaven, down to sheol, (Psalms 139:7-12).
Thereís no place I can go, where you are not.  Why?  God is Spirit, God is not a man, get that out of your head.  He (God) tells us that, God is not a man, Jesus Christ is a man.

Where is God?  EVERYWHERE!
If your in a life raft, out in the middle of the ocean, you donít have to cry out to God, to help you.  God can see you, in the big ocean.  Heís there, whether Heíll help, thatís a different story.  But He is there.
------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: servias on June 01, 2012, 11:42:45 AM
I need to wrap my head around all of this!

Thanks for directing me where to look. 

Here is some more confusion that this makes for me.  Since God's spirit is everywhere all the time, where is his spirit in times of evil?  Do we see less of his spirit around us during evil.  Kind of like the old cliche of the devil talking in one ear and an angel in another.  I know that sounds silly but is evil perhaps a lack of god during the time evil is existing?  Or is evil its own thing and power? 

I know this all sounds like over thinking... Well it is...  ;D   I over think and do not expect a complete answer because in the end these little nuances I have don't matter to much.
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: Kat on June 01, 2012, 12:39:52 PM

Hi Dan,

God is omnipresent, He is everywhere all the time and see all things. And only in Him do all things consist/hold together (Col 1:17).

Pro 15:3  The eyes of the LORD are in every place,
       Keeping watch on the evil and the good.

Psa 139:7  Where can I go from Your Spirit?
       Or where can I flee from Your presence?
v. 8  If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
       If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
v. 9  If I take the wings of the morning,
       And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
v. 10  Even there Your hand shall lead me,
       And Your right hand shall hold me.
v. 11  If I say, "Surely the darkness shall fall on me,"
       Even the night shall be light about me;
v. 12  Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You,
       But the night shines as the day;
       The darkness and the light are both alike to You.

Jer 23:23  "Am I a God near at hand," says the LORD,
       "And not a God afar off?
v. 24  Can anyone hide himself in secret places,
       So I shall not see him?" says the LORD;
       "Do I not fill heaven and earth?" says the LORD.

Also as God is sovereign, which means He ultimately controls all things.

Rom 9:13  As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
v. 14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
v. 15  For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
v. 16  So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
v. 17  For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
v. 18  Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
v. 19  You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
v. 20  But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
v. 21  Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
v. 22  What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
v. 23  and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
v. 24  even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Think about what this is saying, God is doing what has to be done for this creation to turn out in the most wonderful way that He wants, even if He needs to "endured with much longsuffering," so that it will be so.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: John from Kentucky on June 01, 2012, 04:17:02 PM
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12934.0.html

Read the April 2, 2011 message from Ray, attached, starting a little down from the top.

Our understanding of God---the Father and Jesus---Who they are and how They interact---is far, far from complete.  Ray was studying this matter the last year.

Ray admits that his paper on the trinity does not account for and explain all the scriptures on this matter.  Ray also states that this matter is the most amazing thing we will learn from the scriptures.

If the Father is God and Jesus is God, then you have two Gods, but the scriptures teach that there is only One God.

Somewhere Ray also wrote that in Genesis, where it says man is being created in the image of God, the word for image is not just referring to a spiritual image, but an actual form and image.

Ray had also asked the question how could Jesus be the express image of the Father if the Father has no image.

Since Ray has died, and we don't have his complete thought on this issue, then this matter is for our private study and meditation.

Maybe we won't have full understanding until after the resurrection.  But if that is so, then why did God bring up these questions through Ray but not provide us with full understanding?

I have been thinking of little else the past year, hoping Ray would give us further insights.  A significant part of the answer is found in the second part of Ray's creed---that Jesus is God's Authorized Autobiography.

Ray also wrote that he now knew the Father's name.  All of this is extremely fascinating to me.
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: eggi on June 01, 2012, 07:55:40 PM
Hi all,

Joining the club, this fascinates me as well. Although I'm sure I would have a hard time grasping it, because I don't yet see what is in the second part of Ray's creed. Nor do I see what is in the first. But that's just me at this point. If I, God willing, will spend some years meditating on it, it'll come to me. That would be wonderful. Ray really had an amazing insight into things that not many people think about.

God bless you,
Eirik
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: whyisthatso on June 01, 2012, 10:49:37 PM
       For me, as I can understand, the best way to describe the "relationship" ( but Im not sure thats the right word)  between the Father and Son is to say.........When you see a policeman on the street, that man is "the law" to YOU, but that man is not THE LAW.
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: whyisthatso on June 01, 2012, 10:57:44 PM
     But the "relationship" is a matter of thought.............literally.
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: servias on June 02, 2012, 12:02:26 AM
THIS STUFF IS ALL SO VERY COOL!  Unbelievable!  I will just ponder on all of this for awhile now, words can't describe what this potentially is.   ;D
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: santgem on June 02, 2012, 07:50:18 AM
This is one of my favorites among Ray's teachings. The connection from Old to New testament.


God replied to Moses, ďI AM WHO I AM. Say this to the people of Israel: I AM  has sent me to you.Ē God also said to Moses, ďSay this to the people of Israel: Yahweh, the God of your ancestorsóthe God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacobóhas sent me to you.

This is my eternal name,

my name to remember for all generations.(Ex. 3:14-15).



"Moreover, brethren, I would not that you should be ignorant, how that all our fathers  were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST" (I Cor. 10:1-4).
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: moshe on June 02, 2012, 11:47:27 AM
Gina,

thanks for this tread. I have been thinking about this subject and paper lately and just enjoyed to see all the movement around here.
This morning I am having A LOT of food for thought.

time = movement     movement = time     



Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: doug on June 02, 2012, 12:33:26 PM

This morning I am having A LOT of food for thought.

time = movement     movement = time     

Moises, Hi.  It sounds like all interested in this topic need to study Einstein's "theory of relativity"!  God abides by His own laws of physics you know (except when He performs miracles to show that He is the Great "I AM").

I know that I was glued to the edge of my seat whenever I listened to Ray delve into this discussion!
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: Dave in Tenn on June 02, 2012, 01:45:18 PM
Members, this was posted in reply to a 'teaching' post (with some comments about the forum) which has been removed. 

I don't know how its possible that the least in the Kingdom should be greater than John also in the kingdom.  You might as well say there is a coin less valuable than the least valuable.  If John and the Patriarchs are not in the kingdom first, then I (should I be there) will be happy to thank and minister to them.  They WILL be there before "those seeking to enter and not be able".  Each in his own order.

Nobody here claims perfection, nor did Ray.  I would hope nobody here claims Ray was perfect. 

We have very simple rules on the forum.  They are clear and not secret.  They are so 'public' that everyone who joins is asked if they read them.  By your own declaration, you came here to teach.  Do you think everybody in the world should come here to teach?  Or is that "mission" for you only?  We have to make a distinction else this forum become like so many others, and we've made it.  I'm not a bit embarassed by that.  Let the debating, if there is to be any, take place in your own mind or elsewhere.

We are so 'liberal' that we don't even ask members to believe what is on B-T.  This is not a church, but a web-forum.  We just ask/insist that they respect and adhere to the reasons the forum exists expressed in the rules.

You're not the first person who has come here to 'straighten us out'.  You won't be the last.  And none of those have even agreed with each other.  That's pretty 'smelly' to me.             
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: mickiel on June 03, 2012, 09:00:52 PM


I just watched Rays vedios on time and eternity, they were stunning. Just raw truth teaching, in my view, I had never heard him before. Very refreshing to hear unadulterated teaching.

On the image of God, I have come to see Gods image as being " Consciousness." I mean thats where I am with it now. The image of God is consciousness, and all humans have that. I doubt that Gods image means anything physical, and consciousness is " The Spirit in man", in my view of scripture. Consciousness is a Spirit, simular to the breath of life God blew into man, but I am not sure they are the same thing; the breath of life, and the Spirit in man( consciousness). Animals are alive, the breath of life, but I do not believe they are conscious ( or have Gods image.)

The bible calls Adam the first man, although he was not the first human created. I think it means Adam was the first human God gave consciousness , or that was created in his image. Which would suggest to me that primordal man, or humans before Adam, were not created in Gods image, or didnot have consciousness as we do; which I know sounds weird, but would be incredible.

I'm  still kind of thinking and studying on this premiss; but I think its possible.
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: Kat on June 03, 2012, 10:32:40 PM

Hi mickiel,

Welcome to the forum  :)

The topic of spirit/breath and consciousness is a familiar subject here on the forum. Here is a Scripture that put together the breath and spirit together and you can see how it applies to animals also.

Gen 7:22  ALL in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, of all that was on the dry land, died.

Now when a person has their eyes opened by God He gives them another Spirit, an earnest of the Holy Spirit to go with their human spirit so that we can understand spiritual matters.

2Co 1:22  And He has sealed us and having given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Here are a few emails that go more into this.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,118.0.html ------------------

Man is made of TWO components--body and spirit. God never put a soul into Adam. The soul of man is not a component, but rather the product of two combined components, namely: body and spirit. God formed man's body out of the ground. He then breathed into this body the breath of life (spirit), and the MAN, not some separate component, but the man became a "LIVING SOUL."  The soul is not the living soul, but rather the man is the living soul. There is no soul without the body of man.  Understood?  God is not a trinity and neither is man a trinity.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,655.0.html -------------------

You are not paying attention to my writings. The consciousness is not in the body, and it is not in the spirit. The consciousness of man is in his soul, and his soul is resultant outcome of our spirit being united with a body. God breathed the breath and spirit of life into the man formed from the dust of the ground, and the man then BECAME a living soul. He BECAME conscious of his own being. At death we are no longer conscious of our being or our death. Our spirit must be reunited with a new body in resurrection before we will regain the soul and consciousness that we had before we died.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1594.0.html ----------------

Every person (and animal) has a "spirit."  There is no life without spirit. At death OUR spirit return to our God Who gave it to us. Spirit does not die. But, spirit has no consciencousness of its own. It must be united with a body. That is why there is coming a Resurrection of the DEAD. Adam's body had the spirit of God breathed into it and then Adam became a LIVING SOUL.  God's Holy Spirit is His Spirit of Holiness which imparts spiritual knowledge and spiritual character to those who possess it. The wicked and unbelievers have a spirit that keeps them alive, but they have no spiritual perception of spiritual truths because they do not possess the Holy Spirit of God living in us through Jesus Christ our Lord.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=1675.0 ----------------------------

Yes, there is a spirit in man (AND ALL ANIMALS). Nothing can live without "spirit." Spirit IS life (Ecc. 8:8; Ecc. 12:7; Luke 23:46;  I Cor. 2:11; etc.).  There is no consciousness in our spirit alone. There is only consciousness (soul) when man's spirit is combined with a body. God retains our spirit until resurrection when He puts our spirit into a new body and we once again become conscious or receive back the quality of "soul." We are said to have new "spiritual" bodies, not that we are made "spirits."


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=4176.0 ---------------------------

    ALL men (and animals) have a spirit. This spirit gives life to the body and produces soul (feelings, thinking, emotions, etc.). But God dwells in our hearts and minds by way of His HOLY Spirit, which is a different spirit.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2619.0.html -----------------

The Spirit of Christ is eternal, and when we have the Spirit of Christ we have eternal life in us. But....BUT,
we have only the "earnest" of that spirit, and it will not keep our physical bodies from dying. But when we have the earnest of God's spirit, it is proof that there is more to come:  "In Whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that you believed, you were SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE.  Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL [not now; not yet, but later] the redemption of the purchased POSSESSION, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).
 
And that takes place at the resurrection of the saints at the last trump. One more point: although we are promised "eonian" life, nonethless, the spirit that gives us "immortality," IS ETERNAL.
 
God be with you,
Ray

Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: mickiel on June 03, 2012, 11:16:12 PM

Hi mickiel,

Welcome to the forum  :)

The topic of spirit/breath and consciousness is a familiar subject here on the forum. Here is a Scripture that put together the breath and spirit together and you can see how it applies to animals also.

Gen 7:22  ALL in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, of all that was on the dry land, died.

Now when a person has their eyes opened by God He gives them another Spirit, an earnest of the Holy Spirit to go with their human spirit so that we can understand spiritual matters.

2Co 1:22  And He has sealed us and having given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


Greetings Kat, I am happy to be here; thank you.

I see how animals have a Spirit of life, and humans. I think I understand the difference between Gods Holy Spirit dwelling inside a human, and a human just having a Spirit of life, who does not have Gods Spirit of conversion or annointing, or whatever we can label a chosen believer. I was just saying that I see the spirit that all humans have, the spirit of life, as being in Gods image, or being conscious. One must ask then, are animals created in the image of God? I think there is a distinction between animals and humans, that being consciousness.

The human body combined with the breath of life, I think you were saying that produces consciousness. I tend to think consciousness is a spirit unto itself, and the body just carrys it around. So it seems to me there can be 3 spirits; the spirit of life, the spirit that is consciousness itself, and the Holy Spirit of God, whenever he decides to give that to the human. I mean the scriptures mentions a lot of Spirits, even suggest that God has " Seven" himself, in Revelations 4:5; which is an  incredible thing, if it is literally true.

I certainly believe that only Gods Spirit can reveal Spiritual things in their depth, yet I also believe we can only be conscious of, those things we are conscious of.

I know that Gods Spirit is in this place and was with Ray, I certainly sense that; one reason being, I am learning already and have gotten more understanding, and you don't get that so soon where the Spirit of God is not or has not been there.

Anyhow I am still learning, and I enjoy that benefit. I have rarely visted a place that believes in the Salvation of all and rejects the teachings of this eternal hell fire pain amphlifier; that is so refreshing; Jesus was not punished in order that humanity would be punished forever. He was not beaten, in order to leave room for humans to be beaten forever.

I am happy to be here and look forward to the refreshing. I hold developing views in many areas, but I agree with so many of Rays views, and have thought on simular lines for years. I have walked alone in my belief and had many years of argueing and debate, and I grow tired of that, and look to settle down with those who hold to the beliefs that I do myself. Doesn't have to be exactly like mine, but you know how that is, I have longed to be with those who see the glory of the Salvation of all.

And the Peace that brings.
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: Gina on June 04, 2012, 12:29:56 AM
Welcome, Mikiel.   :)

Funny how this topic shifted from Time and Eternity to the different types of spirits and their functions.  That is quite a leap!  lol  (How's that for movement, Moises? My brain's doing back-flips. ;D)

We'll have two topics going under the same thread if we keep going, Mikiel, and that tends to throw people off.

Mind if I start another topic on that subject?

:)
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: Dave in Tenn on June 04, 2012, 02:14:51 AM
Both religion and philosophy have failed us.  They have people so confused, they don't even know who THEY are--much less God.  I feel no need to divide myself into multiple bits and pieces.  God is creating (not 'has created') mankind into his image.  He 'breathed' spirit into man (and continues to) and man became a living soul (still happening).  Common theology says man has an immortal soul.  Scriptural truth is that man IS a living soul. 

Religion and the traditions of men don't understand spirit either.  Spirit is what God says it is, and it makes little difference what our 'conceptions' are.  It's a huge subject and can't be covered in a forum post.   

Animals (at least higher animals) have thoughts, feelings, make choices, dream, etc.  Yet they are not being created in the image of God.  We human souls are.  God both has and IS Spirit.  He gives what he has to whoever He chooses whenever He chooses--most notably to His Son.

Here's a list of short emails that talk about what people are from a Scriptural perspective:  http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11605.0.html

This is one of my favorite passages of Scripture to refer to when talking about 'spirit':

 1Co 2:11-15  For who among men knows the things of a man, except the spirit of a man within him? So also no one has known the things of God except the Spirit of God.  But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God.  Which things we also speak, not in words taught in human wisdom, but in Words taught of the Holy Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things.  But a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to know them, because they are spiritually discerned.  But the spiritual one discerns all things, but he is discerned by no one.

Spirit of (a) man.  Spirit of God.  Spirit of the World.  Spirit from God.  Words taught of the Holy Spirit.  Spiritual things.  Comparing spiritual things with spiritual things.  Things of the Spirit of God.  Things spiritually discerned.  Spiritual ones.  And that ain't anywhere near the end of it.   :D  Start putting it ALL together from all of Scripture, and leave behind the oogy-boogy "caspar-the-friendly-ghostisms' of religion, and you come closer to understanding "spirit".  It's all quite practical from my chair.

It's good to meet you.   
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: mickiel on June 04, 2012, 10:20:24 AM
Welcome, Mikiel.   :)

Funny how this topic shifted from Time and Eternity to the different types of spirits and their functions.  That is quite a leap!  lol  (How's that for movement, Moises? My brain's doing back-flips. ;D)

We'll have two topics going under the same thread if we keep going, Mikiel, and that tends to throw people off.

Mind if I start another topic on that subject?

:)

Greetings, I most certainly don't mind at all. I apoligise for bringing in a different topic, I didnot mean to do so, or cause any confusion. Whenever I read a thread, I always tend to think on it and it leads me to other things, then I think out loud and write; forgive me for that. I am just enjoying myself, and I am not use to so many responses that make sense.

Time and eternity is a good subject. What is so impressive to me is to understand that growth and increase in Gods Kingdom will never end. Stunning and awesome just to think on that. The increase of our righteousness will never end, the increase of our goodness and Love will never end; the increase of our Joy, Patience, Kindness, and strength will never end. My goodness, is humanity destined to be some type of super spiritual being themselves? I mean if those things will forever increase, its stunning to consider what they will produce.
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: mickiel on June 04, 2012, 10:30:58 AM
[quote author=Dave in Tenn Spirit of (a) man.  Spirit of God.  Spirit of the World.  Spirit from God.  Words taught of the Holy Spirit.  Spiritual things.  Comparing spiritual things with spiritual things.  Things of the Spirit of God.  Things spiritually discerned.  Spiritual ones.  And that ain't anywhere near the end of it.   :D  Start putting it ALL together from all of Scripture, and leave behind the oogy-boogy "caspar-the-friendly-ghostisms' of religion, and you come closer to understanding "spirit".  It's all quite practical from my chair.

It's good to meet you.   
[/quote]

Good to meet you, I enjoyed reading your post. Religion certainly has a way of muddying the waters; still some good has come from it. And God certainly has used religion himself for many reasons. It was religion that birthed science, but then the church manipulated science and science soon rebelled from the church . Science started as a " Search for the divine", thats why they have discovered so many things, in my view. Religion  started as a search for the divine, then the search became selfish and distorted as men began to believe that they speak for God.

Anyhow, thats another topic; greetings to you.
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: Gina on June 04, 2012, 01:04:13 PM
Thanks, Mikiel.

Since the topic is already here and because I get the impression from Dave in Tenn's post that the subject could never be solved in a forum thread, and we don't want to end up trying to teach one another, I'll not start that other thread and just leave you with this re the Seven Spirits of God.

It's actually pretty easy to know what they are.

Rev. 4:5  And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

The seven lamps of fire burning before the throne ARE the seven spirits of Gods.  Seven lamps equals seven spirits.  What are the lamps?  The answer is very simple and it's in Revelation.

I hope that helps a little and we can get back to the Time and Eternity topic. 

I'm dying to know what the people who are raised from the dead are going to have running through their minds.  What will they be thinking?  Will they see the technology (of whatever sort it may be when that day arrives) and sort of flip out, like:  "Is that a bird? a plane?  Where on earth am I?!"   hehe  What will they think if they happen to see the computer technology?  It'll be wild.  Or will they be resurrected back to  the times they lived in?   I don't really know!  But that's what I wonder and think about when the topic of time and eternity and, hence, the resurrection/reign with Christ comes up. 

I suppose all we can really do is speculate and take wild guesses at this point.


Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: mickiel on June 04, 2012, 02:43:38 PM
[quote author=Gina link=topic=14174.msg125591#msg125591

I'm dying to know what the people who are raised from the dead are going to have running through their minds.  What will they be thinking?  Will they see the technology (of whatever sort it may be when that day arrives) and sort of flip out, like:  "Is that a bird? a plane?  Where on earth am I?!"   hehe  What will they think if they happen to see the computer technology?  It'll be wild.  Or will they be resurrected back to  the times they lived in?   I don't really know!  But that's what I wonder and think about when the topic of time and eternity and, hence, the resurrection/reign with Christ comes up. 

I suppose all we can really do is speculate and take wild guesses at this point.
[/quote]

I can imagine many people will be freaking out and scared out of their minds! Some technology I see now freaks me out some. I often wonder what the Apostles of old will think about current Spiritual knowledge now- would they even agree with it. Time has to be taken in context of your current knowledge, and knowledge can change with growth; I can't count the times I have been wrong about so many things. Hindsight can often be better than foresight, but when your hindsight was deceived, then foresight is certainly a type of freedom.

I kind of wish you would have explained the Seven Spirits of God a bit more, it certainly intrest me; I am curious about it. If a Spirit has a Consciousness, and God has seven Spirits, I wonder then if he could have upwards of Seven distinct Consciousness? That would be incredible! But as you have stated, we can only speculate on such things.
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: Gina on June 04, 2012, 03:33:02 PM
[quote author=Gina link=topic=14174.msg125591#msg125591

I'm dying to know what the people who are raised from the dead are going to have running through their minds.  What will they be thinking?  Will they see the technology (of whatever sort it may be when that day arrives) and sort of flip out, like:  "Is that a bird? a plane?  Where on earth am I?!"   hehe  What will they think if they happen to see the computer technology?  It'll be wild.  Or will they be resurrected back to  the times they lived in?   I don't really know!  But that's what I wonder and think about when the topic of time and eternity and, hence, the resurrection/reign with Christ comes up. 

I suppose all we can really do is speculate and take wild guesses at this point.

Quote
I can imagine many people will be freaking out and scared out of their minds! Some technology I see now freaks me out some. I often wonder what the Apostles of old will think about current Spiritual knowledge now- would they even agree with it. Time has to be taken in context of your current knowledge, and knowledge can change with growth; I can't count the times I have been wrong about so many things. Hindsight can often be better than foresight, but when your hindsight was deceived, then foresight is certainly a type of freedom.

I kind of wish you would have explained the Seven Spirits of God a bit more, it certainly intrest me; I am curious about it. If a Spirit has a Consciousness, and God has seven Spirits, I wonder then if he could have upwards of Seven distinct Consciousness? That would be incredible! But as you have stated, we can only speculate on such things.
[/quote]

Hi, MIKIEL (not JFK, oopsie):

Rev. 4:5  And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which ARE the seven Spirits of God.

Rev. 1:19 "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands ARE the seven churches.

I understood it to mean that the seven spirits ARE the seven lampstands (lamps burning with fire) which ARE the seven churches. 

Ray explains it all in his papers.  Look in Ray's article on Hell Part D, I believe is where I saw it.  Or google:

site:bible-truths.com + "seven spirits"  and you'll find everything.

Hope that helps a little.  Now, back to time and eternity.  And let's....

(http://www.xnh.co.nz/images/SESA_-_STAY_ON_TARGET.jpg)

 ;D  hehe  (I love that.)
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: mickiel on June 04, 2012, 04:05:02 PM
Quote from: Gina Hi, MIKIEL (not JFK, oopsie):

Rev. 4:5  And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: [b
and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which ARE the seven Spirits of God[/b].

Rev. 1:19 "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands ARE the seven churches.

I understood it to mean that the seven spirits ARE the seven lampstands (lamps burning with fire) which ARE the seven churches. 

Ray explains it all in his papers.  Look in Ray's article on Hell Part D, I believe is where I saw it.  Or google:

site:bible-truths.com + "seven spirits"  and you'll find everything.

Hope that helps a little.  Now, back to time and eternity.  And let's....

(http://www.xnh.co.nz/images/SESA_-_STAY_ON_TARGET.jpg)

 ;D  hehe  (I love that.)

Thanks Gina,

Interesting scriptures, I will resist the temptation to continue on the seven spirits.

I agree with Rays views on time, that it will continue. I kind of like Eph. 5:16" Redeeming your time, because the days are evil." Making the most of our time. I often spend time meditating and hopeing for the day that God gives me his Spirit, often " Begging him for it." It tickled me when I heard Ray say in one of his vedios that theres nothing wrong with begging God for things, I felt better about the times I have begged. The hunger and thrist for righteousness is very real in me, and I am comforted by Jesus teachings that those hungers will be filled one day. In time.

Time will bring about the fulfilling of those who crave Gods righteousness, like myself. If time is the unfolding of Gods will, I look forward to time.
Title: Re: Time and Eternity
Post by: mickiel on June 04, 2012, 04:13:25 PM




http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm

You might want to study this great article from Ray.  Many of us have found it helpful in understanding scriptural truths.

 Thank you, I just read it, very intresting article, I agree with all of it. I have actually believed those things for years, and no man taught me them. Walking alone, you then must learn alone. Not that theres anything wrong with that, you learn directly from the Spirit, with no interference or meddling from men. But that gets lonely after awhile.