=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Rick on January 13, 2014, 12:39:13 AM

Title: Sin.
Post by: Rick on January 13, 2014, 12:39:13 AM
Seems Iím always questioning any and all sin in my life. Iím convince Iím committing sins Iím not even aware of.

 I understand Christ dealt with the sin issue once and for all ,that is not what Iím questioning.

My question concerns scriptures I read, such as ......

(ASV)  If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one also that doeth righteousness is begotten of him.

(ERV)  You know that Christ always did what was right. So you know that all those who do what is right are God's children.

(CEV)  You know that Christ always does right and that everyone who does right is a child of God.

(BBE)  If you have knowledge that he is upright, it is clear to you that everyone who does righteousness is his offspring.

(GNB)  You know that Christ is righteous; you should know, then, that everyone who does what is right is God's child.

(KJV)  If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

(KJV)  Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

(CEV)  Christ suffered here on earth. Now you must be ready to suffer as he did, because suffering shows that you have stopped sinning.

This scripture is self explanatory to me just as the sins I commit are self evident to me.
Iím baffled because I know God is only dealing with the elect now and all others later.

Because I do sin, I am of the later bunch no doubt, I donít understand my interest in God or desire to learn if I am of the later bunch , this is what baffles me.

So I know I cannot free will myself to live a sinless life, I guess it always goes back to the potter who molds us all for His good pleasure and purpose.

Because of the things I have learned here at B.T. I accept Gods plan for me, a vessel of dishonor. My desire is to still study Rayís papers and keep learning as much as Iím allowed to learn of God as He wills me to. Wisdom tells me to prepare for the white throne judgement here and now before there and then comes.

A long time ago I feared hell and wanted to know the truth about my destiny and had asked God, is hell real and God has shown me the truth about hell, what more could I ask for. God is awesome, God is great and I now know that for sure. I discovered the truth I was looking for.    :)
Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: cheekie3 on January 13, 2014, 06:32:05 AM
Rick -

We all have a role to play once we are enlightened by our Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ. We no longer want to sin but it is a process.

I personally have never been hooked on drugs, cigarettes or alcahol by the grace of God.

I still on occasion shout at my wife which is wrong under any circumstances.

I apologise to my wife when I do unreservedly and repent of it to Almighty God.

I know from the scriptures you have quoted which Re real in my heart and mind that The Lord will get me to maturity whereby I will no longer shout at my wife.

Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: John from Kentucky on January 13, 2014, 03:35:24 PM
All of the Elect sin, and will do so until they are born again at the 1st Resurrection. 

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1John 1:8

The only people I know who think they don't sin are the very religious people who always blather on about good works.  Just ask them and they will tell you all the good things they do.

The Elect were all selected before creation.  The Elect cannot choose themselves or unchoose themselves.  It is all by the grace of God.  So it is futile to think about being the Elect; we have no say.  Everybody will be saved; it is all a matter of when.
Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: DougE6 on January 13, 2014, 07:06:24 PM
The Elect were all selected before creation.  True

It is all by the grace of God. True

So it is futile to think about being the Elect; False

Just because we cannot know until it actually happens does not mean we are not to covet and seek for the first Resurrection. We are instructed to seek for the things of God and His righteousness;  not to sit back like a bump on a log and say "it is useless, it has already been chosen, why should I try"

Lord, I really don't want to judge myself and pray and earnestly seek for your greatest gift that you can bestow, the First Resurrection because you have already chosen.

I don't get why you would even want to have that attitude.

Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: Rick on January 13, 2014, 09:36:39 PM

There is much I need to learn / understand concerning my relationship as a believer in Christ and the affects of sin and how it effects my relationship with God.

Not sure where I received the understanding that Godís elect do not sin, perhaps someone been whispering in my ear.

 I can understand this scripture below if applied after the resurrection rather than before the resurrection .

 ((ERV)  You know that Christ always did what was right. So you know that all those who do what is right are God's children. 

Thanks for your response.

Peace and love to all.   :)
Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: Dave in Tenn on January 14, 2014, 08:33:28 PM
I'm going to ask this question hoping NOT for a debate, but for a clear, unambiguous, and not-contradicted-by-scripture answer.  OK, here goes.

How does one try to be in the first Resurrection?

I'm 57.  Before BT, my life was pretty evenly split between "trying to be a good Christian" and "not trying to be a good Christian" (with a large dose of "Trying not to be a good Christian" thrown in as well).  Nobody in all that time was able to give me an answer about "how to be a good Christian" that was 1. Clear, 2. Unambiguous, and 3.  not contradicted by Scripture.  Now that I know about this "first resurrection" thing, maybe somebody can. 
Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: Rick on January 14, 2014, 09:07:35 PM
Hi Dave,

Its not in man to direct his own footsteps, we do not have free will, all is ordained of God, our lives are predestine.

There is nothing we can do to achieve the first resurrection, it is Gods choice who will be and who will not be.

Now having said that, my aim was to acknowledge my destiny by judging my own life, action and thoughts.

After reading your question Dave , I see how foolish my statement was. God is the potter and we the clay.

The question you asked Dave made the answer for me....... SO SIMPLE..... there is NOTHING WE can DO.

 Thanks once again Dave.

Peace and love to all. 
Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: cjwood on January 14, 2014, 10:12:05 PM
we are instructed to study the scriptures to show ourselves approved unto God.  the scriptures tell us that we are to be righteous and worship God.  we are to do, in our spiritual hearts what we know is the right thing to do.  we learn by going to the Word of God in study, the instructions on how we are to live rightly, and how to make our calling and election sure. 

the apostles and writers of the scriptures, through the Spirit of God, had no problem addressing themselves or the believing early church members as the elect.  it is a higher calling.  it is something we should try to attain.  yes, it's all of God, but He didn't leave us without instructions in righteousness and how to fight the good fight of faith to attain that higher calling.

Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: Abednego on January 14, 2014, 11:09:19 PM
Philippians 4:8

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Bold mine. I think somewhere in that list you can shoehorn in being in the first resurrection.  Anything I can do to make it happen? NO! But I certainly desire it.
Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: Rick on January 15, 2014, 12:31:45 AM
the apostles and writers of the scriptures, through the Spirit of God,

Thatís the answer Claudia, through Godís spirit, by the will of God only,can we be the elect.
No other way. There is nothing we can think, do, or say that would make us God's elect.

It's God's choice and His choice only.

peace and love to all.   :)

Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: santgem on January 15, 2014, 07:32:36 AM
John the baptist will not be in the 1st resurrection. :)
Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: Kat on January 15, 2014, 12:09:54 PM

John 7:16  Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
v. 17  If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.
v. 18  He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness (G93) is in Him. (NKJV)

John 7:16 Jesus, then, answered them and said, "My teaching is not Mine, but His Who sends Me."
v. 17 If anyone should be wanting to be doing His will, he will know concerning the teaching, whether it is of God or I am speaking from Myself."
v. 18 He who is speaking from himself is seeking his own glory, yet He Who is seeking the glory of Him Who sends Him, this One is true, and injustice (G93) is not in Him." (CLV)

G93 adikia - (legal) injustice (properly the quality, by implication the act); moral wrongfulness (of charater, life or act): - iniquity, unjust, unrighteousness, wrong.

It's the Holy Spirit indwelling that brings all this about...

1Cor 2:9  But as it is written:
       "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
       Nor have entered into the heart of man
       The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."   
v. 10  But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
v. 11  For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
v. 12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
v. 13  These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

A key point to understand "if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law" (Gal 5:18).

Rom 3:19  Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
v. 20  For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
v. 21  But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it--
v. 22  the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
v. 23  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
v. 24  and are justified by His grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

mercy, peace and love
Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: AwesomeSavior on January 15, 2014, 08:12:22 PM

I pray every day asking God to be in the 1st resurrection, for myself and others, and hopefully by enduring to the end, we will. Talk to God and ask Him  :) Matthew 10:22
Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: lareli on January 15, 2014, 11:40:29 PM
What does 'endure to the end' mean?
Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: Rick on January 16, 2014, 12:20:35 AM

Good question Largeli

endure >verb 1 suffer (something painful and prolonged) patiently. 2 tolerate. 3 remain in existence.
-DERIVATIVES endurable >adjective.
-ORIGIN Latin indurare 'harden'.

How is one to endure without free will or free choice? In other words, who is doing the enduring in us? Is it Christ or us?

Ultimately all is of God , can I endure on my own outside of Christ ? What if I will to endure to the end ,  is not my will subjected to the will of God ? What happens if its Godís will that I do not endure to the end ?

Will I succeed irregardless of Godís will ?   ???

peace and love to all.  :)
Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: Max on January 16, 2014, 01:43:00 AM
This is a great topic, and I definitely have the same kinds of doubts as Rick. I am not sure if I am destined to be in the First Resurrection or not. I want to be able to not sin at all, but there are some sins I just haven't been able to give up. Sometimes I drift back to carnality and think that I have clean up my act to earn a spot in the First Resurrection and I feel despair, but when I remember God made the decision before creation, I can relax a little. I guess the progress I have made though is that I feel terrible when I commit certain sins that I maybe wouldn't have felt guilty about in the past.

Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: santgem on January 16, 2014, 03:20:35 AM
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1 John 2:1
Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: Kat on January 16, 2014, 01:13:49 PM

It is most certainly the Holy Spirit indwelling by which we can do anything that pleases God... we are not just having these things happen to us, but through us. What I mean is we are not passive in this, the Holy Spirit inspires our spirit and we do, say or think what we are inspired to, so it is us doing it.

Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
v. 15  For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
v. 16  The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
v. 17  and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. 

The Spirit works in us as a process of slowly removing the old man/self, so we become a new man/creature. Yes we go through all sorts of things in life, but as an elect it will ultimately lead to a person enduring to be prepared and ready to enter the kingdom at Christ's return.

Col 3:9  Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,
v. 10  and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

If you are predetermined an elect this process is worked out throughout our whole life, but we are just not aware of it.

Eph 4:21  if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
v. 22  that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
v. 23  and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
v. 24  and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

So WE endure to the end by the Spirit in us, WE do what the Spirit shows/tells/inspires us to do, it is done through us and by us, that's why we are accountable. That's where Paul is coming from when he says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," because WE must endure to the end.

Php 2:12  Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
v. 13  for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Eph 3:20  Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
v. 21  to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

mercy, peace and love
Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: lareli on January 16, 2014, 02:16:39 PM
So Kat, what are we supposed to 'endure' to the end? I think you answered it. Are you saying we 'endure' the process of being changed by the Holy Spirit throughout this life? We endure the hard times and each and every heart break knowing that it's all a process designed by God to change us into His image? As opposed to resenting and fighting against our situations in life that bring suffering? Because to fight against our circumstance is to fight against Gods will for our life?

Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: Kat on January 16, 2014, 02:35:19 PM

Hi largeli,

Yes I think so. What God has in store for us is not known, so we just strive to do the best we can, knowing it's not the easy way, but difficult to overcome this carnal fleshly ways.

Luke 13:24  "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Knowing always that God is not just putting us through the wringer for nothing, He is accomplishing a great transformation in us.

Rom 8:31  What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

Php 1:6  And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

mercy, peace and love
Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: Rick on January 16, 2014, 03:00:00 PM
If you are predetermined an elect this process is worked out throughout our whole life, but we are just not aware of it


Maybe that is what keeps me wondering where I stand with God,

I know all will be eventually saved, as its God will that all be save.
I have a desire to learn about God also a desire to live a life that is right before God but its my performance that I question.

Although I can not prove to myself through scripture but commonsense tells me if Christ is working in me then sinning should be less with each passing day.

What seems to always be before me is, God is perfect, God is righteous, but I am not. I see my own failure to imitate Christ not having the ability within myself to adhere to Godís standards.

I understand I was made in vanity from creation and am to spiritually weak to obey the laws of God. But now I find myself between a rock and a hard place because of my belief in God and not being able to live according to the standards of our creator.

I find apart of me wants to walk away yet another part of me wants to stay knowing Iím a failure at living up to Gods standards.

I analyze my sins in this manor, if Iím attracted to anything outside the law of God and give into what ever temptation Iím am struggling with then its only because I am to spiritually weak to resist that temptation but have and inner understanding that this that I do is wrong in Gods sight.

I am helpless to overcome those desires which are wrong by design and I was never intended from the beginning to obey God .

Understanding my own inability humbles me knowing I donít measure up but if I pray to God asking God to remove my inability to resist every temptation that befalls me and that prayer is not answered , then what more can I do besides realize my own inability to live righteously before God?

Peace and love to all.  :)
Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: Kat on January 16, 2014, 05:34:57 PM

Hi Rick, well you are in good company, Paul had the same struggle.

Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
v. 15  For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
v. 16  If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
v. 17  But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
v. 18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

This way is not suppose to be easy, as Ray has said it's the hardest thing we will ever do. I feel that it is a good thing to have the hope in obtaining the highest calling any person can receive. So I strive and hope to endure to the end... what hope can there be if I just give up and throw the towel in? And I don't believe it is an unrealistic hope, because the Scripture that I base this hope on is this.

1Co 1:26  For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
v. 27  But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
v. 28  and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
v. 29  that no flesh should glory in His presence.

With that I feel there's a real chance for even me, if God willing and I keep with it to the end. It won't happen without both of those, so I struggle on.

Rom 7:22  For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
v. 23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
v. 24  O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
v. 25  I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
    So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

mercy, peace and love
Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: lareli on January 16, 2014, 06:25:52 PM
Instead of worrying about sin, why not just focus on loving God and loving our neighbor as ourself? Didn't Jesus say that those two commands pretty much sum up the entire law?

Love God. Love your neighbor as yourself. That's all I can do. Whether one is an 'elect' or not at least one could be a decent human being by doing these two things and if after doing these I still end up in the symbolic lake of fire.. well I can say its Gods good will for me and at least the end result will be that I'll eventually make it into Gods kingdom as a citizen or subject instead of a king or judge or priest.

Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: Rhys on January 16, 2014, 07:11:33 PM
John 8:34  Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.
John 8:35  The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever.
John 8:36  So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Jesus is the answer to it all and you shouldn't worry as He is the one that will make us free.

We should do what we can knowing that we are powerless without Him so focus on Him with love and to those around us

Who wants to be a slave to sin. It sucks the life out of me but we shouldn't feel condemned but learn what is right and wrong and learn obedience

John 8:7  And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."
John 8:8  And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground.
John 8:9  But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him.
John 8:10  Jesus stood up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
John 8:11  She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."

I find it a constant struggle but continue to do my best. I learn the consequences of my actions and God gives me a taste of something better in Him. It's worth the hardship and suffering to find the life you can have in Him. So you get back up and press on towards the goal with the knowledge of the sure hope we have in Him.

1Jn 2:1  My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
1Jn 2:2  He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.


Title: Re: Sin.
Post by: Rick on January 16, 2014, 07:30:47 PM
Instead of worrying about sin, why not just focus on loving God and loving our neighbor

                                                          Hi Largeli,

What you say sounds like good advice, if only it were possible but having a memory gets in the way and as I error, its not as if I cannot acknowledge my sin.

The scriptures Kat had given by Paul the apostle I understand so well and not only me but everyone who acknowledges God.

I will continue moving forward as I am, until my change comes , I trust Christ will break the chains that impede me from living a righteous life.

Until that change comes I will continue on as Paul said, that which I would do I do not but that which I would not do is that which I do, who will save me from this body of sin, I thank God through Jesus Christ.

peace and love to all.  :)