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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Rolihlahla on December 20, 2015, 09:59:16 AM

Title: It is what it is
Post by: Rolihlahla on December 20, 2015, 09:59:16 AM
Do you "tell it like it is?"
Do you call a "spade a spade?"
Are you "as bold as a lion?"

I read about Jesus and notice he was a straight forward man,didn't mince his words whatsoever.Even to his brothers he told it like it is.Remember:

Matt 16:23 "But he turned and said to Peter,get behind me Satan!"

Imagine saying that to a friend of yours.Or better yet,remember:

Matt 12:48 "..who is my mother and who are my brothers?"
Matt 12:49 "..He stretched out his hand toward his desciples and said,here is my mother and brothers"

Imagine saying that to your blood parents,or blood family.That takes guts-or rather,faith!

Do you sometimes tell it like it is when you are around your acquaintances and family?When your family member does something wrong,do you say,"hey,that is wrong,don't do that.”

Luke 13:32 "Go tell that fox.."

Imagine calling the president that?

Do you sometimes "sit against the fence?"

Currently i am developing a relationship with this christian,and he likes teaching me.And I have been sitting against the fence,not debating him,not arguing with him.Just listening to him.And he actually thinks I am agreeing with him every time he shares his wisdom with me.Funny thing is:Jesus tends to make me run into him frequently,which I tend to laugh about -we just tend to run into each other.Then he goes on and on and on..teaching me,whilst I keep quiet.

His reaction is going to be interesting the day I open my mouth-the day i "tell it like it is."

Had a conversation with a relative of mine the other day,told her:"God created evil and he uses it."
Whoa!It didn't end well!
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: Arion on December 20, 2015, 11:32:39 AM
Yes.  In our more modern vernacular it's called not being politically correct but really has nothing to do with politics in general.  People are so afraid to offend today and there are many who take advantage of that reluctance and indeed they get all upset if you call it like you see it.  I'll never forget that Christ's enemies were not the publicans and sinners of his day but it was with the religious crowd and so it is today.

The good news that in the eons to come that God will reconcilliate all his creation is soundly rejected by the religious crowd [the Christian religious crowd especially] but it actually makes sense to the non-religious who have enough inherent understanding to know that if God is good and God is love the way he says, then he is too good and loving to torture people for all eternity let alone torturing people at all. 

Christ made a lot of enemies.  And he made those enemies by speaking truth.  It's no different today as human nature never changes.

Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: Extol on December 20, 2015, 03:52:33 PM

Currently i am developing a relationship with this christian,and he likes teaching me.And I have been sitting against the fence,not debating him,not arguing with him.Just listening to him.And he actually thinks I am agreeing with him every time he shares his wisdom with me.Funny thing is:Jesus tends to make me run into him frequently,which I tend to laugh about -we just tend to run into each other.Then he goes on and on and on..teaching me,whilst I keep quiet.

I almost always adopt this technique. I'm pretty quiet anyway, and in my experience, argument and debate do not accomplish much other than frustration. This is true whether talking to a sports fan or a Christian who firmly believes in the doctrines of Christendom--or any number of other groups. Few people are humble enough to admit that what they've firmly believed is not true, even when shown evidence.

I've also noticed that there are a lot of know-it-alls around. Maybe people have always been that way, but it has been much more noticeable in the last ten years, because of the Internet and social media. Anybody with the Internet has a platform to say what he or she thinks. In that regard, this is a unique time in history. With the help of Google, Wikipedia, and the comfort of our home computer, we all have the ability to sound smarter than we are, and can announce our smartness to the world. That can really puff up the ego, and it's one of the reasons I do not do social media. It's mostly vanity and foolishness.

I've met a lot of folks who have carried over that know-it-all attitude from the Internet into everyday conversation. People talk more and listen less; interruptions come more easily, because people just love to show how knowledgeable they are. Again, maybe we've always been like that, but I've sure noticed it more in recent years. I don't enjoy talking to such people, so when I come across such persons (which is fairly often in my line of work), I try to politely listen and smile--even if I don't agree with what they're saying--and end the conversation monologue as quickly as I can.

As far as my blood family, I've told them what I believe, and they don't accept it--so I leave it at that. God will call them in his own time.
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: Kat on December 20, 2015, 08:07:26 PM
Do you "tell it like it is?"
Do you call a "spade a spade?"
Are you "as bold as a lion?"

I read about Jesus and notice he was a straight forward man,didn't mince his words whatsoever.Even to his brothers he told it like it is.Remember:

Matt 16:23 "But he turned and said to Peter,get behind me Satan!"

Imagine saying that to a friend of yours.Or better yet,remember:

Matt 12:48 "..who is my mother and who are my brothers?"
Matt 12:49 "..He stretched out his hand toward his desciples and said,here is my mother and brothers"

Imagine saying that to your blood parents,or blood family.That takes guts-or rather,faith!

Do you sometimes tell it like it is when you are around your acquaintances and family?When your family member does something wrong,do you say,"hey,that is wrong,don't do that.”

Luke 13:32 "Go tell that fox.."

Imagine calling the president that?

Do you sometimes "sit against the fence?"

Currently i am developing a relationship with this christian,and he likes teaching me.And I have been sitting against the fence,not debating him,not arguing with him.Just listening to him.And he actually thinks I am agreeing with him every time he shares his wisdom with me.Funny thing is:Jesus tends to make me run into him frequently,which I tend to laugh about -we just tend to run into each other.Then he goes on and on and on..teaching me,whilst I keep quiet.

His reaction is going to be interesting the day I open my mouth-the day i "tell it like it is."

Had a conversation with a relative of mine the other day,told her:"God created evil and he uses it."
Whoa!It didn't end well!

Hi Shechiyn, I really believe the Scripture that says, "be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear" (1Peter 3:15). Now out in the world that just doesn't happen, so I never really have reason to speak up.

I have mentioned a few things to my sisters, who are very steeped in their churches, one did respond positively to a few conversations we had, up until a discussion we had about a year ago. She seemed to maybe have been given some advice about what I had been saying and that last time she was very strongly apposed to what I said. So I dropped it and I doubt we will discuss our beliefs again.

Also about a year ago I had these JWs come by the house, he has his Bible out and was showing me verses. I decided to be nice and said I was not interested, I did my own study and did not accept his literature. They left and I thought that was the end of that, but they showed up a few weeks later, again I told him I did my own studies and was not interested, they left. Well they turned up a few weeks later again, i was kind of perturbed, because like you were saying he was trying to teach me. So when he started up and opened his Bible and showed me a very familiar verse about witnessing and asked if I believed that all Christians were suppose to witness for Christ? I said no I did not believe that, no, that I believed that God gives each gifts according to what He sees fit and everybody is not used the same to serve Him. Without another word he turned on his heals and quickly left, and has never returned, it was kind of strange.

But I agree with your assessment that if somebody is telling/teaching you something and you do not say you disagree, then they must think you agree. Thinking about this, that not disapproving to an obvious falsehood that is being directly spoken to you and actually inadvertently agreeing... is that like denying Christ, the truth?

Matt 10:32  So everyone who acknowledges Me before men, I also will acknowledge before My Father who is in heaven,
v. 33  but whoever denies Me before men, I also will deny before My Father who is in heaven.
v. 34  "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
v. 35  For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
v. 36  And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.
v. 37  Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of Me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
v. 38  And whoever does not take his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me.
v. 39  Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

It's a fine line we walk as to when to speak up, but I think we must respond in that situation... what kind of witness is it if somebody believes we accept their blasphemy? Now I'm not talking about explaining the whole truth of the matter, but I think we need to at least say something like 'I don't believe that way.' It really depends on the person as to how much you say... to a coworker's preaching, I might say very little accept to disagree and using tact is always a good thing.

To a close relative I would probably say more... but to a believer I would say as much as I felt they needed, as people here know I do. However if somebody is like minded and wants to understand I do try to use great care in how I answer, especially if they are new to this truth. If we are too bold in correcting, could we cause a person to stumble?  We must be careful how we speak to each other here, I take Christ's warning very serious.

Mark 9:42  "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.

But I do not tire of answering the same old questions here, I enjoy helping a believer even a little bit. If I am blessed to know a Scripture or a place Ray spoke on something that somebody is struggling with, I'm always glad to show it to them. It's a real blessing to me to help others here.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: rickylittleton on December 21, 2015, 09:29:21 AM
Well, just remember to used wisdom with your words! Tim
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: Rolihlahla on December 21, 2015, 01:49:43 PM
Well said,Ex!

Funny you should speak about sports.In fact,you are right,it is the same.Just last week at work I had a debate,rather mild though,concerning soccer.Me and my co-worker were going at each other and in the end,he didn't accept my view point and I didn't accept his view point either.What a waste of time!

Kat you said,"Thinking about this, that not disapproving to an obvious falsehood that is being directly spoken to you and actually inadvertently agreeing... is that like denying Christ, the truth?"

Good question.It reminds me of:

"If you don’t get any persecution from anybody ever, never for doing the right thing, then you’re living in a closet someplace  Because you will get some flack, trust me. If you haven’t gotten much yet, if you are still alive, then it could be right around the corner." L.Ra Smith
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: Rolihlahla on December 22, 2015, 01:04:01 AM
Imagine your friend says:Hey,ex,let's go bury my father."

And you reply,"my man!Let the dead bury their own dead!"

Wonder if any of us have reached that level of righteousness?

Jesus was brutally honest!If it was in his mind,he said it.

Proverb 27:5 "Better is open rebuke than hidden love."

Christ hides nothing!

It is what it is
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: Kat on December 22, 2015, 07:36:05 PM

Hi Shechiyn, Jesus was God in the flesh and that every single word He ever spoke was done in the absolute proper manner... I mean we do not see His body language or hear the tone, inflection and strength in His voice by the mere words on the page. We can surmise to a degree, but those things make a big difference, as we can see misunderstandings here on the forum regularly.  Also He knew exactly what was in a person heart and therefore knew how to respond correctly.

We however could make serious mistakes if we tried to speak the same way that Christ did. So I would rather give a person due consideration, at least until I felt certain of their meaning.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: Rolihlahla on December 23, 2015, 01:35:34 AM
To "surmise to a degree,"I think when he said "let the dead bury their own dead," he was rather mild.Then again whether he was mild or not,I think those words stung the man who wanted to bury his father.

When he referred to the woman as a "dog," I think he was mild too.

But,when he said to peter,"get behind me Satan," I don't think He was mild.

Can you imagine what the man did after hearing Jesus tell him,"let the dead bury the dead."He possibly went to his friends and said,"whoa,guys.You know that guy,Jesus,with miraculous powers?He told me to let the dead people bury the dead."
His friends could've replied:"aahg,leave that Jesus,He is crazy."

After all,his family did think he was crazy.

How we speak may make a difference,at times it may not make a difference.

we live in a world were people get offended,regardless of whichever tone one uses.
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on December 23, 2015, 11:54:45 AM
John 2:23-25
23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

The Almighty God in the flesh knew very well the heart of man and indeed knew all men. Take this into consideration when you think about how Jesus replied to those around Him. I do not know all men though I do know that the heart is exceedingly weak and the mind of man deep seated hatred towards God--Not subject to His law. It takes great spiritual discernment to answer accordingly in all situations and we are still learning. Right now, I would rather err on the side of caution, being kind and and gentle in my responses with patience than to retort someone a 'JACKAL' or 'SATAN.'

There are perhaps times when it will be obvious what the response should be but in the vast majority of interactions which 'christians' who are simply blind , I do not believe such strong language would profit them or plead our cause any further.

Jesus also said:

Luke 12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
Luke 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

This may be during times of special circumstance but I believe the spirit is always working in us to teach us how we should speak and what we should say.

God bless,
Alex
 
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: lareli on December 23, 2015, 12:59:35 PM
Do you "tell it like it is?"
Do you call a "spade a spade?"
Are you "as bold as a lion?"

I read about Jesus and notice he was a straight forward man,didn't mince his words whatsoever.Even to his brothers he told it like it is.Remember:

Matt 16:23 "But he turned and said to Peter,get behind me Satan!"

Imagine saying that to a friend of yours.Or better yet,remember:

Matt 12:48 "..who is my mother and who are my brothers?"
Matt 12:49 "..He stretched out his hand toward his desciples and said,here is my mother and brothers"

Imagine saying that to your blood parents,or blood family.That takes guts-or rather,faith!

Do you sometimes tell it like it is when you are around your acquaintances and family?When your family member does something wrong,do you say,"hey,that is wrong,don't do that.”

Luke 13:32 "Go tell that fox.."

Imagine calling the president that?

Do you sometimes "sit against the fence?"

Currently i am developing a relationship with this christian,and he likes teaching me.And I have been sitting against the fence,not debating him,not arguing with him.Just listening to him.And he actually thinks I am agreeing with him every time he shares his wisdom with me.Funny thing is:Jesus tends to make me run into him frequently,which I tend to laugh about -we just tend to run into each other.Then he goes on and on and on..teaching me,whilst I keep quiet.

His reaction is going to be interesting the day I open my mouth-the day i "tell it like it is."

Had a conversation with a relative of mine the other day,told her:"God created evil and he uses it."
Whoa!It didn't end well!

I would check my motive before I "open my mouth and tell it like it is".

I know my own heart when I'm in similar situations as you've described here. I have to pause and check my attitude and motives. I could very naturally just let this person talk, talk, talk while each time I am putting his words in my back pocket to use as ammo at just the right moment.. When I decide to let him have it so to speak.

In this case what are my motives? Just to hit him in the face with some truth that he wasn't asking for? Self righteous and prideful. Arrogant I can be when contemplating "telling it like it is" to someone whom I really doubt is seeking truth in the first place. If he were seeking truth then perhaps he would be asking questions or initiating a mutual conversation instead of trying to teach me.

Just this last weekend in church service the pastor in his sermon says people shouldn't attempt to preach about something unless they can point to 5 or 6 places in the bible that clearly support what they're preaching.. In the same sermon he stated with absolute conviction multiple times that he doesn't believe in 'fate or destiny'.  Which is to say he was preaching free will.

I had the thought of firing off an email to him to "tell it like it is" and ask him for 5 or 6 places in the bible where he can back up his words. Would it be wrong to do this? Wouldn't I be refuting those that contradict, just like Ray? I dunno. But I don't trust my motives or my heart yet at this point in my maturing process. Maybe this is a bad example and maybe by not emailing him I am 'shrinking back' which displeases The Lord.






Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: Kat on December 23, 2015, 05:28:37 PM
To "surmise to a degree,"I think when he said "let the dead bury their own dead," he was rather mild.Then again whether he was mild or not,I think those words stung the man who wanted to bury his father.

When he referred to the woman as a "dog," I think he was mild too.

But,when he said to peter,"get behind me Satan," I don't think He was mild.

Can you imagine what the man did after hearing Jesus tell him,"let the dead bury the dead."He possibly went to his friends and said,"whoa,guys.You know that guy,Jesus,with miraculous powers?He told me to let the dead people bury the dead."
His friends could've replied:"aahg,leave that Jesus,He is crazy."

After all,his family did think he was crazy.

How we speak may make a difference,at times it may not make a difference.

we live in a world were people get offended,regardless of whichever tone one uses.

In all these instances you gave His disciples were within ear shot to hear what He was saying, therefore it is recorded. But did anybody, even His disciples at the time, understand what He was talking about? I don't think so. Well why did He make these kinds of comments?

John 14:26  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Only later when they reflected on the things that He had said did the Holy Spirit show them the spirit of those words and so it is for us today, we have all the NT for instruction. Now somebody like Ray was given a specific mission to expose the church, which he did quite well, I don't feel like that's for everybody to do... so as for me, I have no desire to try an appear astute to the world, but that's just me.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: CEO on December 24, 2015, 01:06:46 PM
Hi

Maybe Jesus was not so direct with his comments.  Jn 16:25 " These things I have spoken to you in figurative language, an hour is coming when I will speak to you no more in figurative language, but will tell you plainly about the Father."

Askseeknock

Charles O
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: Rolihlahla on December 25, 2015, 02:03:32 AM
"Maybe Jesus was not direct with his comments." What is that supposed to mean?

Job 6:25 "How painful are honest words."

Check out the forwardness of Paul:

Galatians 3:1"You foolish Galatians!"(NET)
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: Arion on December 25, 2015, 10:08:30 AM
"Maybe Jesus was not direct with his comments." What is that supposed to mean?


First witness

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


Second witness

Mat 13:34  All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:


Third witness

Mar 4:34  But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.


Christ was not direct at all with his comments.  His words were spirit and not carnal.  In other words the real meaning behind what he was saying was most often not the direct meaning.  At times the Pharisees and Sadducees were sharp enough to pick up that when Jesus spoke some of his parables that he was talking about them but most of the time it went right over his heads as well as his disciples heads.  Spend some more time in Ray's teachings here because he addresses this many times and in many ways.  The things Christ both spoke and taught went far deeper than the surface meanings of the words themselves.
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: Rolihlahla on December 26, 2015, 07:07:44 AM
Was Christ "indirect?"
Was Christ "indirectly" calling Caesar a "fox?"
Was Christ "indirectly" calling the woman a "dog"
Was Paul "indirectly" calling the Galatians "fools?"
Was Paul "indirectly" calling the Corinthians "carnal?"
Are the words, "indirect" and "spirit," synonymous?
Are the words, "indirect" and "parable," synonymous?

Suppose i'll "spend more time" on Ray's teachings.
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: octoberose on December 26, 2015, 11:23:56 PM
I was thinking along the same lines as Arion. Parables were not to be taken literally and their meaning was revealed over time to those who had no initial understanding. And Kat is very correct when she says Jesus knew what was in the heart of a man and we do not so we need to be careful.
  Christ actually hid quite a bit.  We have no reason to think anyone but his earthly parents and John the Baptists parents had any inkling who Jesus was the first 30 years of his life.  He had to have been very careful what he said because the time had not yet come for him to reveal himself.
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: octoberose on December 27, 2015, 12:06:44 AM
Okay, well some shepherds and men from the east had some idea that baby was pretty special.  :)
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: cjwood on December 27, 2015, 02:30:42 AM
Quote from: Shechiyn

Had a conversation with a relative of mine the other day,told her:"God created evil and he uses it."
Whoa!It didn't end well!





this statement made me laugh out loud!   ;D
i know the feeling.

claudia
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: Rolihlahla on December 27, 2015, 03:31:25 AM
Hey arion

Took your advice and read more of Ray's material,found some interesting quotes:

"WOW! Every one of these comments from Matt. 23 were spoken DIRECTLY to the "Religious Scholars and Theologians" in the Church of God centered at the Temple in Jerusalem. Would Jesus speak in the same manner to the Religious Scholars and Theologians in God’s Church today? Does Jesus "change"? NO. Has the Church changed in the past 2000 years? YES. It has gotten WORSE."

"Jesus told the truth. Jesus called a spade a spade. And many people thought He was a contemptuous smart aleck! He was not. It was the Truth of His words that cut them; not just the tone of His voice. However, the tone of His voice and the selection of words and analogies that He used were not only highly offensive to those to whom He spoke, but are likewise offensive to people hearing this same approach used today by God’s servants. It is unscriptural foolishness to retort that, "Well, YOU ARE NOT Jesus!" Oh really? And what happened to,

"…because AS He [Jesus] is, SO ARE WE in this world" (I John 4:17),

and

"Let this MIND be IN YOU, which was also in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 2:5)?"

Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: Rick on December 27, 2015, 01:27:08 PM
Do you "tell it like it is?


When one says they will do this or do that they stand in the temple of God and proclaim to be God but only say if the Lord is willing I shall tell it like it is.

God bless.

Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: Kat on December 27, 2015, 01:40:59 PM
Shechiyn, saying that Jesus spoke directly to the pharisees and saying "Maybe Jesus was not direct with his comments" is 2 different things. Yes He spoke directly to them, but the spirit of the message was totally lost on them, that's why they were so angry with what He said, they did not ears to hear.

And yes He certainly called them what they're, they did understand the literal meaning of what He was saying and that cause them to vhemently hated Him and kill Him. But that type of language and tone was certainly not used on His disciples, as it was done for them to later have understanding of what He was applying it to spiritually.

We are certainly to imitate Christ in righteous living, but judging others is a whole other thing.

1 Cor 4:1  Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.v. 2  Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful.
v. 3  But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court.fn In fact, I do not even judge myself.
v. 4  For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.
v. 5  Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.
v. 6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: Rolihlahla on December 27, 2015, 05:02:01 PM
Hey

I'll make comments to your post

Shechiyn, saying that Jesus spoke directly to the pharisees and saying "Maybe Jesus was not direct with his comments" is 2 different things.

Comment:
Kat,i did not say they are NOT 2 different things.Why you telling me this?

Yes He spoke directly to them, but the spirit of the message was totally lost on them, that's why they were so angry with what He said, they did not ears to hear.

Comment:
"they were so angry with what He said" because "they did not (have) ears to hear" is your understanding - not mine.

And yes He certainly called them what they're, they did understand the literal meaning of what He was saying and that cause them to vhemently hated Him and kill Him.

Comment
"..they did understand the literal meaning of what He was saying.." I didn't know Jesus' words had a "literal meaning" behind them.Even more astonishing,I didn't know that the Pharisees understood the "literal meaning" of Jesus' words.

But that type of language and tone was certainly not used on His disciples, as it was done for them to later have understanding of what He was applying it to spiritually.


Comment:
Kat,I didn't say Jesus used "that type of language and tone on His disciples."Why tell me this?Are you somehow suggesting i did?

We are certainly to imitate Christ in righteous living, but judging others is a whole other thing.

Comment:
"Judging others" is not a "whole other thing" from "imitating Christ in righteous living," they are not different,Kat.Imitating Christ involves judging,RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT.I must admit though,i am still in limbo regarding:"Judge not,that you be not judged."

You quoted Paul from the book of Corinthians.

Could it be possible that 1 Cor 4:5 should read:

"Therefore,stop judging PREMATURELY..," (ISV)

Maybe we should stop judging PREMATURELY.

John 5:30 ".Just as i hear,I judge,and my judgement is JUST."

Peace  ;)
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: Kat on December 27, 2015, 07:07:46 PM
Comment
"..they did understand the literal meaning of what He was saying.." I didn't know Jesus' words had a "literal meaning" behind them.Even more astonishing,I didn't know that the Pharisees understood the "literal meaning" of Jesus' words.

But that type of language and tone was certainly not used on His disciples, as it was done for them to later have understanding of what He was applying it to spiritually.


Comment:
Kat,I didn't say Jesus used "that type of language and tone on His disciples."Why tell me this?Are you somehow suggesting i did?

We are certainly to imitate Christ in righteous living, but judging others is a whole other thing.

Comment:
"Judging others" is not a "whole other thing" from "imitating Christ in righteous living," they are not different,Kat.Imitating Christ involves judging,RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT.I must admit though,i am still in limbo regarding:"Judge not,that you be not judged."

A person could not carry on a conversation without speaking literally, of course Jesus spoke things that were literal... that is why the Pharisees hated Him, they knew He was speaking about them, because He was speaking directly to them when He said things like this.

Luke 11:38 When the Pharisee saw it, he marveled that He had not first washed before dinner.
v. 39 Then the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness.
v. 40 “Foolish ones! Did not He who made the outside make the inside also?

Was that literal enough, they certainly understood what He was saying, here is their response.

Luke 11:45 Then one of the lawyers answered and said to Him, “Teacher, by saying these things You reproach us also.”

And after He spoke even more in this matter to them, here is their other response.

Luke 11:53 And as He said these things to them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to assail Him vehemently, and to cross-examine Him about many things,
v. 54 lying in wait for Him, and seeking to catch Him in something He might say, that they might accuse Him.

He spoke enough to the pharisees in a literal manner for them to hate Him and eventually kill Him. Was all what Him in parable form so that they did not understand? Of course not, but all of His spiritual teachings was in parable form, because the Spirit of what He said was reserved for the elect, that was to come later, after He was crucified and raised back up. So yes the spiritual messages that He spoke in front of the world was always in parables, but He did speak literally too.

Quote
You quoted Paul from the book of Corinthians.

Could it be possible that 1 Cor 4:5 should read:

"Therefore,stop judging PREMATURELY..," (ISV)

Maybe we should stop judging PREMATURELY.

John 5:30 ".Just as i hear,I judge,and my judgement is JUST."

The chosen are now to judge themselves, but they are not involved with judging the world now, nor was/is Christ.

1Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

John 12:46 “I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.
v. 47 “And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
v. 48 “He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him IN THE LAST DAY.
v. 49 “For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
v. 50 “And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: John from Kentucky on December 27, 2015, 08:24:28 PM
Jesus did and does use strong language with His elect and takes strong action with them, as the Potter decides.

Jesus told Peter, "Get behind Me Satan."  To call anyone Satan is very strong language since the Devil is pure evil.

Peter was a tough guy, but I imagine his feelings may have been a tad hurt.  Just like when Paul withstood him to his face in front of everyone in Antioch.

Jesus tells us not to throw our pearls to swine.  Again strong language to say someone is ignorant like a pig.

Few know the true Jesus.
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: Kat on December 28, 2015, 12:54:26 PM
Jesus did and does use strong language with His elect and takes strong action with them, as the Potter decides.

Jesus told Peter, "Get behind Me Satan."  To call anyone Satan is very strong language since the Devil is pure evil.

Peter was a tough guy, but I imagine his feelings may have been a tad hurt.  Just like when Paul withstood him to his face in front of everyone in Antioch.

Jesus tells us not to throw our pearls to swine.  Again strong language to say someone is ignorant like a pig.

Few know the true Jesus.

Yes Jesus certainly did use strong language with Peter, but what brought on such a response?
 
Mat 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
v. 22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
v. 23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

As with every thing that Jesus uttered, this response to Peter was exactly what he needed for what he had "rebuked" Christ for... though Peter did not understand it, but he was still worldly minded and advocating the ways of the world - Satan.

Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

Yes it probably was a difficult thing to hear from Christ, but necessary and these teaching would all come back to them as their minds were opened to the truth and they could understand these things.

Heb 12:6 For the Lord disciplines him whom He loves, and chastises every son whom He receives."

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: Rolihlahla on December 29, 2015, 02:45:44 AM
Kat you quote

Luke 11:38 When the Pharisee saw it, he marveled that He had not first washed before dinner.
v. 39 Then the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness.
v. 40 “Foolish ones! Did not He who made the outside make the inside also?

Was that literal enough, they certainly understood what He was saying, here is their response

Comment:
You ask "Was that literal enough?"
Sorry,but i have never in my life seen a literal "cup" and literal "dish" filled with literal "greed" and literal "wickedness."NEVER--Neither have you.

Ok kat,enough with the teaching.
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: Kat on December 29, 2015, 01:13:46 PM

They certainly understood the meaning of what Jesus was talking about there. Though some things were metaphor and some were parable, you have to know that Jesus was literal at time, though His words do carry a deeper spiritual meaning there is the literal/physical before the spiritual (1 Cor 15:46).

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: Pini56 on January 08, 2016, 01:57:42 AM
Hello,

The thing about the cup is that it was a "Metaphor". Even today we use metaphors a lot in everyday conversation and most people understand them. As Ray says a metaphor is this: "Is Like In Certain Ways". Therefore the thing about the cup was not so much a "Parable", but a "Metaphor" that the Pharisees fully understood was about them and hence hated Jesus for saying it.

Regards To You All, Geoff.

Title: Re: It is what it is
Post by: Joel on January 08, 2016, 12:42:36 PM
Psalms 23:5-Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

The 23rd Psalm is mostly all metaphors, just as most of the scriptures are.
The religious leaders were very aware from their knowledge of the scriptures what they represented, as Kat, and Geoff, and others have pointed out.
But they were totally blinded as to who The Lord Jesus Christ was.

Joel