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Title: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: pg-91 on October 30, 2016, 05:39:29 PM
1 Chronicles 28:9, "And thou, Solomon, my son, know the God of thy father, and serve Him with a perfect heart, and with a willing mind, for all hearts is Jehovah seeking, and every imagination of the thoughts He is understanding; if thou dost seek Him, He is found of thee, and if thou dost forsake Him, He casteth thee off for ever"

I found this verse in the CLV, and don't really understand it. Isn't it a contradiction? Could someone help me out on this one?

Thanks, Gyula
Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: cheekie3 on October 31, 2016, 07:26:09 AM
Gyula -

1 Chronicles 28:9, "And thou, Solomon, my son, know the God of thy father, and serve Him with a perfect heart, and with a willing mind, for all hearts is Jehovah seeking, and every imagination of the thoughts He is understanding; if thou dost seek Him, He is found of thee, and if thou dost forsake Him, He casteth thee off for ever"

I found this verse in the CLV, and don't really understand it. Isn't it a contradiction? Could someone help me out on this one?

Thanks, Gyula

Does this help from the New Israelite Bible English Version (NIBEV):

"As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and a willing mind; for Yahweh searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If ye seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever."

Kind Regards.

George

Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: pg-91 on October 31, 2016, 07:33:32 AM
George,

"As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and a willing mind; for Yahweh searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If ye seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever.

I have problems with that last part of this verse, how should I view it?

Gyula
Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: cheekie3 on October 31, 2016, 07:50:18 AM
Gyula -

George,

"As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and a willing mind; for Yahweh searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If ye seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever.

I have problems with that last part of this verse, how should I view it?

Gyula

I thought you might.

Here are a few other versions:

1 Chronicles 28:9 Living Bible (TLB)
Solomon, my son, get to know the God of your fathers. Worship and serve him with a clean heart and a willing mind, for the Lord sees every heart and understands and knows every thought. If you seek him, you will find him; but if you forsake him, he will permanently throw you aside.

1 Chronicles 28:9-10 The Message (MSG)
ďAnd you, Solomon my son, get to know well your fatherís God; serve him with a whole heart and eager mind, for God examines every heart and sees through every motive. If you seek him, heíll make sure you find him, but if you abandon him, heíll leave you for good. Look sharp now! God has chosen you to build his holy house. Be brave, determined! And do it!Ē

1 Chronicles 28:9 GODíS WORD Translation (GW)
ďAnd you, my son Solomon, learn to know your fatherís God. Serve the Lord wholeheartedly and willingly because he searches every heart and understands every thought we have. If you dedicate your life to serving him, he will accept you. But if you abandon him, he will reject you from then on.

It seems to me, that Yahweh would give Solomon sufficient opportunity to do the right thing, and if not, in Solomon's physical life He would reject him and cast him off for good (or permanently, or for all of Soloman's physical life on the Earth).

I hope this helps.

Kind Regards.

George

Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: pg-91 on October 31, 2016, 08:08:31 AM
Thank you very much, George. Now it's more clear to me. Just you know it's strange that even one of the best translations, CLV has this "for ever" expression. And then we have to look up other versions to make it more clear.

What you writes after, that makes perfect sense to me, but now it's time to think about the other part, that Solomon of course is not able to do the right things by himself or dedicate his life to God by himself, so yeah a lot of things to meditate on.

Anyway, thanks again, you helped a lot!

Gyula
Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: cheekie3 on October 31, 2016, 09:11:42 AM
Gyula -

Thank you very much, George. Now it's more clear to me. Just you know it's strange that even one of the best translations, CLV has this "for ever" expression. And then we have to look up other versions to make it more clear.

What you writes after, that makes perfect sense to me, but now it's time to think about the other part, that Solomon of course is not able to do the right things by himself or dedicate his life to God by himself, so yeah a lot of things to meditate on.

Anyway, thanks again, you helped a lot!

Gyula

We know that not one of us can do 'good' at any time under this current Age of Grace or all the previous Ages, as 'good' only comes from Our Heavenly Father.

It is both true that Solomon did not do 'right' and could not do 'right' in this particular case - and Solomon himself must have understood that God enabled him to be wise as He gave Solomon great wisdom; yet for this particular matter Solomon did not do 'right'.

Kind Regards.

George

Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: Dave in Tenn on October 31, 2016, 10:46:19 PM
Guyla, we understand that there is no word in either biblical language which means "forever".  The word for "age" (equivelant to aion in the Greek) is Olam in the Hebrew.  That is not the word used in your verse.

The word is "ad", but it would be difficult to do a word study on it because it is a very common word with multiple meanings depending on how it falls in a "sentence".  Here are some other "words" into which it is translated elsewhere in the KJV:

Until and till (most often), as well as "how long" and several other words and phrases, many of which have nothing apparently to do with time or duration.

Given all that, I'd agree with Cheekie's assessment, but not strictly with every comment. 
Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: cheekie3 on November 01, 2016, 05:45:08 AM
Dave in Tenn -

Thank you for pointing out that the Hebrew word is "ad" - this makes a lot of sense:

Guyla, we understand that there is no word in either biblical language which means "forever".  The word for "age" (equivelant to aion in the Greek) is Olam in the Hebrew.  That is not the word used in your verse.

The word is "ad", but it would be difficult to do a word study on it because it is a very common word with multiple meanings depending on how it falls in a "sentence".  Here are some other "words" into which it is translated elsewhere in the KJV:

Until and till (most often), as well as "how long" and several other words and phrases, many of which have nothing apparently to do with time or duration.

Given all that, I'd agree with Cheekie's assessment, but not strictly with every comment.

Perhaps, it would be helpful to Gyula, the others on this Forum and myself, if you would kindly confirm which of my comments you did not agree with, and why - so it does not remain a mystery to us.

Kind Regards.

George
Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: pg-91 on November 01, 2016, 08:18:25 AM
Dave, thank you very much. It makes this verse much more clear to me. As well as George, I'm also interested where your opinion differs.

Gyula
Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: pg-91 on November 01, 2016, 08:45:12 AM
George, now as I downloaded e-sword with some Bible versions and dictionaries, it seems to me that the versions (TLB,MSG) are far from being proper translations, related to the meaning of the word Dave said, "ad".

Now as I see the meaning of this verse is something like this: If you search the Lord, you will find Him, but if you forsake Him, He will cast off/reject you during that time.

Gyula
Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: cheekie3 on November 01, 2016, 04:16:07 PM
Gyula -

I am pleased that you got the meaning you were looking for.

George, now as I downloaded e-sword with some Bible versions and dictionaries, it seems to me that the versions (TLB,MSG) are far from being proper translations, related to the meaning of the word Dave said, "ad".

Now as I see the meaning of this verse is something like this: If you search the Lord, you will find Him, but if you forsake Him, He will cast off/reject you during that time.

Gyula

It is good that you have e-Sword as it is a very useful tool.

Do you also have a hardback Bible with a middle column with cross references to other Scriptures; as this is also a useful tool for finding two or three Scriptural Witnesses,

Kind Regards.

George



Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: pg-91 on November 01, 2016, 04:49:34 PM
George,

I have a New Testament translation which is quite close to the CLV translation, and it has references to other Scriptures at the end of each chapter, so it's pretty good. Unfortunately there is no translation for the Old Testament in Hungarian which is similar to the CLV, basically what I have is similar to the King James Bible.

Best regards, Gyula
Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: cheekie3 on November 01, 2016, 05:25:59 PM
Gyula -

George,

I have a New Testament translation which is quite close to the CLV translation, and it has references to other Scriptures at the end of each chapter, so it's pretty good. Unfortunately there is no translation for the Old Testament in Hungarian which is similar to the CLV, basically what I have is similar to the King James Bible.

Best regards, Gyula

That is good to know.

All the very Best.

George

Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 01, 2016, 06:08:42 PM
George, now as I downloaded e-sword with some Bible versions and dictionaries, it seems to me that the versions (TLB,MSG) are far from being proper translations, related to the meaning of the word Dave said, "ad".

Now as I see the meaning of this verse is something like this: If you search the Lord, you will find Him, but if you forsake Him, He will cast off/reject you during that time.

Gyula

If I were translating it, that's the way I'd put it.
Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 01, 2016, 06:21:41 PM

We know that not one of us can do 'good' at any time under this current Age of Grace or all the previous Ages, as 'good' only comes from Our Heavenly Father.

My "disagreement" stems from a less theological understanding of "good".  We not only can do good, we are told to do good.  We're told that even the heathen can do good.  And we're told that good works are judged, and in a way not coinciding with evil works--the former are refined, the latter burned up.

But I see Cheekie put good in quotations, so I doubt he is talking about it like I am.  No need for long discussion over words. 
Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: John from Kentucky on November 01, 2016, 10:55:37 PM
What does Jesus say?  Jesus said, "There is no one good but One, Who is God."

That is an absolute statement of Truth.

To say any man is good is just a relative statement compared to other men.

There truly are no good men.  One Scriptures says, "There are none righteous, no not one."  Another Scripture says, " All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

We are all just toads beneath the plow.  Any goodness in us solely comes from God, not from us.
Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 01, 2016, 11:35:02 PM
I didn't say any man was good.  That's a statement of truth. 

On the other hand, Jesus didn't deny HE was good, nor did He deny He was God.  He asked a question in answering a question.  I answer His from multiple witnesses, not as the one who asked the first question might assume.

Good works exist, and (just as we do all the things we do), people can do them.  I gave up believing the old Baptist preacher that lives in my head preaching the "total depravity of man".

I reckon it takes more heat and time to refine gold and silver than to burn wood, hay, and stubble.  But that doesn't mean the gold is not gold, and the silver not silver. 

Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: cheekie3 on November 02, 2016, 06:32:52 AM
Dave -

Thank you for clarifying, as this should help our understanding:


We know that not one of us can do 'good' at any time under this current Age of Grace or all the previous Ages, as 'good' only comes from Our Heavenly Father.

My "disagreement" stems from a less theological understanding of "good".  We not only can do good, we are told to do good.  We're told that even the heathen can do good.  And we're told that good works are judged, and in a way not coinciding with evil works--the former are refined, the latter burned up.

But I see Cheekie put good in quotations, so I doubt he is talking about it like I am.  No need for long discussion over words.

When I refer to good, I always think of Jesus when He said 'why do you call me good, there is only one that is good, and that is God (Yahweh)'. To me, the good in us can only ever come from Him, and He judges the intent of our hearts and not our outward appearances (which may appear good, but inwardly may not be).

Kind Regards.

George


Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: cheekie3 on November 02, 2016, 06:34:46 AM
John -

What does Jesus say?  Jesus said, "There is no one good but One, Who is God."

That is an absolute statement of Truth.

To say any man is good is just a relative statement compared to other men.

There truly are no good men.  One Scriptures says, "There are none righteous, no not one."  Another Scripture says, " All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

We are all just toads beneath the plow.  Any goodness in us solely comes from God, not from us.

I totally agree, as I am sure all of us here on this Forum do.

Kind Regards.

George

Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: cheekie3 on November 02, 2016, 06:40:46 AM
Dave -

I didn't say any man was good.  That's a statement of truth. 

On the other hand, Jesus didn't deny HE was good, nor did He deny He was God.  He asked a question in answering a question.  I answer His from multiple witnesses, not as the one who asked the first question might assume.

Good works exist, and (just as we do all the things we do), people can do them.  I gave up believing the old Baptist preacher that lives in my head preaching the "total depravity of man".

I reckon it takes more heat and time to refine gold and silver than to burn wood, hay, and stubble.  But that doesn't mean the gold is not gold, and the silver not silver.

Did Jesus not say 'the words that I speak are not my own, and the One who sent me He doeth the works'?

I take that to mean, that all Jesus 'desired, thought, said, and did' were all from His Father - The Words (e.g. the forgiveness of sins) and The (Good) Works (of Healings and Miracles) were all of His and Our Father.

Kind Regards.

George

Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: indianabob on November 02, 2016, 03:15:08 PM
Good thinking George.
Exactly correct.
Thanks, Indiana Bob
Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 02, 2016, 05:15:58 PM
Jesus said:

Joh_5:36  But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Joh_10:25  Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh_10:32  Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh_10:37  If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh_10:38  But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Joh_14:12  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

I would reconcile that, but I won't.  If He didn't do the works of His Father, then don't believe Him.  Instead, explain to me how Jesus did not do the works He did. 


Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: cheekie3 on November 03, 2016, 06:34:49 AM
Dave -

Thank you for sharing this group of Scriptures; which reveal much about the Words and the Works that Jesus Christ Himself spoke and did:

Jesus said:

Joh_5:36  But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Joh_10:25  Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh_10:32  Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh_10:37  If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh_10:38  But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Joh_14:12  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

I would reconcile that, but I won't.  If He didn't do the works of His Father, then don't believe Him.  Instead, explain to me how Jesus did not do the works He did.

I believe it was 'John of Kentucky' who said to Alex on a recent Post 'not to be sorry for telling The Truths of Scriptures'.

At times, you Post cryptically, or state something, and not explain fully what you mean - and this leaves the rest of us to try and fathom exactly what you mean - which I do not believe is very helpful. I mean, as long as you are stating something in Love, what is the worse that can happen? One or more of us may not agree, or you may be corrected in part or more.

To me, it appears that you are perhaps focussing on what Jesus Christ did and said about Himself - and perhaps, not also taking into account what Jesus Christ Himself said about His relationship with His Farther (who commissioned Him to do The Father's Will). Or put another way, it is 'the sum of His Word' that confirms any particular 'Truth in The Scriptures'.

Anyway, I will attempt to reconcile The Scriptures you have quoted above:

1. To me, it is an Absolute Fact in Scripture that Jesus Christ Did Indeed 'desire, think, speak, and do the works that He was sent to Earth to do'.

2. To me, it is an Absolute Fact in Scripture that The Father is in Jesus Christ at all times, and Jesus Christ Did Indeed 'always do The Will of His Father who sent Him'.

3. To me, it is an absolute Fact in Scripture that Our Heavenly Father is 'The Beginning and Original Cause of All in His Creation (and this most assuredly includes The Life of Jesus Christ - and The Words Jesus Christ spoke, and The Works that Jesus Christ did)'.

4. To me, it is an absolute Fact in Scripture that every 'desire, thought, word and work that Jesus Christ had / had / spoke / did' originated from Our Heavenly Father; and Jesus Himself confirmed that His (Jesus') Words and Works were not His but His Father's (who sent Him).

5. To me, it is an absolute Fact in Scripture that Jesus Christ could NOT do anything at all without His Father in Heaven.

Is The Director at All times in Jesus Christ's Life not always Our Heavenly Father?
Is there a doubt that the Works were done by Jesus Christ?
Is there a doubt that the Words spoken by Jesus and the Works that Jesus did were 'The Father's?
Is there a doubt that Jesus Christ has a God; but Our Heavenly Father does not have a God?
Is there a doubt that Jesus Christ had a Beginning and did not exist before His Father Begat Him; but Our Heavenly Father has no Beginning, and did Indeed exist before He became a Father?

Sincere Regards.

George

Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 03, 2016, 07:52:20 AM
That makes at least two of us.  I frequently wonder whether anything I say or do anywhere is "very helpful". 

What I tried to do with those verses was counter over-statement, over-simplification, and over-complication.  Though they may not have appeared directly in this thread, I have read comments fairly lately which exude confusion over who does "the works" and whether or not there is any such thing as "good works".  I don't begrudge the questions, but I do begrudge some of the answers.  I can't help but carry the 'thinking' I did when they popped up into the space that follows. 

If I'm "cryptic", maybe I'm trying to elicit thought and not spoon-feeding.  Or maybe I'm just musing.  I'll grant you, that probably isn't very helpful. 
Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: cheekie3 on November 03, 2016, 11:48:24 AM
Dave -

Thank you for sharing this with all of us on this Forum:

That makes at least two of us.  I frequently wonder whether anything I say or do anywhere is "very helpful". 

What I tried to do with those verses was counter over-statement, over-simplification, and over-complication.  Though they may not have appeared directly in this thread, I have read comments fairly lately which exude confusion over who does "the works" and whether or not there is any such thing as "good works".  I don't begrudge the questions, but I do begrudge some of the answers.  I can't help but carry the 'thinking' I did when they popped up into the space that follows. 

If I'm "cryptic", maybe I'm trying to elicit thought and not spoon-feeding.  Or maybe I'm just musing.  I'll grant you, that probably isn't very helpful.

I am sure that all of us on this Forum value your input, and clarifications Dave - as you are most helpful in maturing our understanding.

I too dislike over-statements, over-simplifications, over-complications, misinformation, and assumptions - and we all rely on those mature IN Him, to assist and support us, in this - and this most assuredly includes you Dave.

Using cryptics to elicit thought is a very good tool (as I agree that spoon-feeding may not always be appropriate) - perhaps next time - I will PM you, when I do not fully understand what you are saying.

You are much appreciated Dave.

Very Kind and Warmest Regards.

George


Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: pg-91 on November 03, 2016, 12:20:41 PM
I absolutely agree with George, you are very helpful with your answers, Dave. Thanks for those, again!

Gyula
Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: indianabob on November 03, 2016, 01:40:43 PM
George,
I agree and appreciate the way it was stated in your message to Dave seen in part below.
All is of the Father, the Creator, who is uncreated and the source of all things both physical and spirit composed.
I note that the physical healings performed by Jesus during his ministry were also later performed by many of his apostles, they had to be the work of Father God. Jn 14:10-14
Indiana Bob





Dave -



Joh_5:36  But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Joh_10:25  Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh_10:32  Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh_10:37  If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh_10:38  But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Joh_14:12  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

I would reconcile that, but I won't.  If He didn't do the works of His Father, then don't believe Him.  Instead, explain to me how Jesus did not do the works He did.

Anyway, I will attempt to reconcile The Scriptures you have quoted above:

""Note particularly the following enumerated sentences. I-Bob""
1. To me, it is an Absolute Fact in Scripture that Jesus Christ Did Indeed 'desire, think, speak, and do the works that He was sent to Earth to do'.

2. To me, it is an Absolute Fact in Scripture that The Father is in Jesus Christ at all times, and Jesus Christ Did Indeed 'always do The Will of His Father who sent Him'.

3. To me, it is an absolute Fact in Scripture that Our Heavenly Father is 'The Beginning and Original Cause of All in His Creation (and this most assuredly includes The Life of Jesus Christ - and The Words Jesus Christ spoke, and The Works that Jesus Christ did)'.

4. To me, it is an absolute Fact in Scripture that every 'desire, thought, word and work that Jesus Christ had / had / spoke / did' originated from Our Heavenly Father; and Jesus Himself confirmed that His (Jesus') Words and Works were not His but His Father's (who sent Him).

5. To me, it is an absolute Fact in Scripture that Jesus Christ could NOT do anything at all without His Father in Heaven.

Is The Director at All times in Jesus Christ's Life not always Our Heavenly Father?
Is there a doubt that the Works were done by Jesus Christ?
Is there a doubt that the Words spoken by Jesus and the Works that Jesus did were 'The Father's?
Is there a doubt that Jesus Christ has a God; but Our Heavenly Father does not have a God?
Is there a doubt that Jesus Christ had a Beginning and did not exist before His Father Begat Him; but Our Heavenly Father has no Beginning, and did Indeed exist before He became a Father?

Sincere Regards.

George
[/quote]
Title: Re: 1 Chronicles 28:9
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 03, 2016, 11:23:19 PM
I'm going to close the thread here, mostly because it has wandered far too far from the original post (thanks for making it wander, Dave).