=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Phazel on December 10, 2006, 12:37:21 AM

Title: Free Will
Post by: Phazel on December 10, 2006, 12:37:21 AM

I have a really hard time grasping the lack of free will in relationship to God.  I easily grasp cause and effect.  Its not hard to rationalize making choices based upon influence.

I think where I get tripped up is when it comes to my own purpose in Gods will.

 I think about this and Gods plan and then I think about my feelings.   I deal with alot of depressive feelings.   Doctors are not helping.   Then after reading alot around here I think that God wants me to feel this way for a purpose and it just almost makes me feel worse that this is happening.  I do not want to feel this way.

If God is the only one who can grant me this faith, why do I desire it while it seems to elude me?

Title: Re: Free Will
Post by: rrammfcitktturjsp on December 10, 2006, 01:27:43 AM

  Good evening.  I just wanted to say that your post has touched me very deeply. 

  Recently I have had bouts of depression and feeling hopeless.  I just want to let you know that God wants nothing but the best for you.  Jesus said, that "He came that we might have life and have it to the fullest."  God does not want us to live lives as depressed.  Think of the Scripture when it says that Jesus wanted to gather Jerulsalem unto him as a mother hen would do her chicks.  Now think of this, Jerulsalem was doing some pretty bad things yet Jesus loved them and wanted the best for them, peace, propserity, and security, and to let them have a relaltionhip with him.

  I would challenge you to make a list of 5 things that are good and that are blessings from God.  Do this everyday and in time you will see that the blessings outshine that which is depressing you.  Please do not let the devil steal your joy as he goes around prowling like lion and waiting to devour.  God wants your life to be blessed and the devil wants the other for you.

  Free will is an illusion that Christain tradition came up with to control the masses.  At first I did not know this and it took about 2 weeks to sort this out with Ray's paper.  Free will in the eyes of tradition allows the ones who "chose" Christ to beat the others down and to use hell as a doctrine to scare them into their way of thinking.  Live life witout the free will.  Do not see this as limitations but as boundless freedom.  For in the aspect of non free-will, we are truly at our freest.
  You desire the good things in life such as faith.  Do not give up on it.  Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opends, and ask and it will be given.  You will find it.  You seek what your heart knows is to be true.  And please realize this, that the faith is not eluding you.  It is in you at this moment and is surrounding you at this moment.  Know this and believe in this.  You are in my prayers.  I look forward to talking with you and getting to know you. Keep your head up, for there is no reason to not hold it up.

  The fact that you posted this today shows me you have faith.  Think on this, and you will understand what I am saying.


  Anne C. McGuire
  Et in Terra Pax, Eternum Perficio
Title: Re: Free Will
Post by: Brett on December 10, 2006, 01:30:06 AM
I think about this and Gods plan and then I think about my feelings.   I deal with alot of depressive feelings.   Doctors are not helping.   Then after reading alot around here I think that God wants me to feel this way for a purpose and it just almost makes me feel worse that this is happening.  I do not want to feel this way.


I understand your feeling. I have the same sometimes. But we remember God is soveriegn. Of course, you are not alone. I am sure most of us feel that way. Here the verses that might help you, (I hope :-\):

1 Peter 1:7 NKJV
that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire , may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,

1 Peter 4:12 NKJV
Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you;

Hebrews 12:5-7 NKJV
5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;

6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives."   

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?  

Hebrews 12:10 NKJV
For they indeed for a few days [temporary on earth] chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness.  

Hebrews 12:11 NKJV
Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.  

If father don't discipline his child, obviously, father have no real heart love his child.

I know it is not fun, but it is worth it. We have pain and joyful because God loves us too much. One day (in the future) we (and all mankind) will have NO MORE pain ;D.

True, all flesh have difficult understand about we have no free will. Know this, if we do have free will, then God absolutely not soveriegn. Hope this make sense to you. :-\

Brett :D
Title: Re: Free Will
Post by: kennymac on December 11, 2006, 01:17:13 AM
Hello Phazel,

I went through a period that was very dark in fact it was black. Depression was not a part of my nature at all, in fact if not for that experience I would have no ability to relate to the subject.

I was in such a pit that I could feel nothing. Life had no meaning at all, nothing mattered I had no ability to love or feel love. I spent a whole day trying to figure out how I could just check out.

Just know one thing, IT WILL PASS. While we are going through it, it is very hard to see any light.

As for having no free will it is hard to grasp. It's just another deception. We think we have chosen Christ, to see it any other way goes against every thing we have believed.  We have been born into a world system that is anti-Christ. We have no memory of our true identity. But there is this voice within that tells us there is more. That is the spirit of Christ.

In the eyes of the world I had the life, blessed with material things, yet I was experiencing the most difficult thing I ever had to go through, depression. In the midst of it I cried out to God and He saved me he set my feet on solid ground. I went through a total period of self destruction lost everything that I had worked for all my life. The good news is I would do it again in a heart beat, to know Christ, He is the treasure.

My life has changed dramatically. In Christ I find myself complete, he has placed in me such joy and peace. Something I never knew before.

Phazel, He is with you, otherwise He would not be on your mind. Talk with him, beg Him to give you relief. He promises if you will seek Him with all your heart and all your mind He will come in. He did it for me, He will do it for you. Remember He is working out all things for your good, not to harm you.

Just cry out to Him. He is the author and finisher of our faith. You would have no faith if it were not for Him drawing you. He will bring you out of this, He takes us from glory to glory. If everything was wonderful and beautiful I know for myself I would have never called on the name of the Lord.

The true purpose of this life is for us to realize that we are not separate and alienated from God, that's the lie we are born into, the world system teaches us from children that the purpose of life is to get a great career, gain as many toys as you can and there you will find happiness. It's a lie, as soon as you get a great job you will want a better one. As soon as you get your dream house the one on the other side of town looks better. As soon as you find your soul mate it wont be long until you want to replace them for a better one.

It's all a lie.

 The truth is without Christ we are incomplete, there will always be this void in us and we will keep searching trying to fill that emptiness that only He can fill. He is getting your attention now. Praise God, because when He comes in Life will take on a whole new meaning and at last you will find yourself complete.

My prayers are with you, and remember this will pass.

God bless,

Title: Re: Free Will
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on December 11, 2006, 03:28:46 PM
Hello Phazel

I can really relate to the horrible pain you are experiencing.

I suffered for one decade from depression. I am convinced now that people in Christendom who suffer depression, do so because of the toxic junk that is taught, the lies and errors and the narcissistic holier than thou idolatry that is made heroic within the soul dungeons of Mystery Babylon.  This soul destroying heresy is the awful taste of death and deceit that hurts deeply and maims our joy for life and love for God. That is enough to make anyone depressed!…..That is a good sign!   :DBlessed are they who suffer for righteousness sake…… ;D

Reading LOF and drawing in the good news has been very healing for me.
If at first you do not understand….then try….try and try again. Reading the papers on the Myth of Free will is so easily written and is a clear step by step meditation that you can digest bit by bit. Make it a daily meditation taking one part at a time!

I recommend that you read the paper and instead of simply racing through it, read it s-l-o-w-l-y. Stop and reflect on the messages. Eg….just think, God made Pharaohs heart stubborn….Even if you have many questions about this, just observe that you have questions coming alive and surfacing. Allow this to happen and be in peace with it. Then read on.... 8)

God has the will for us to be righteous but the plan to be unrighteous first to recognize our weakness and liabilities without Him. What we go through is truly what comes to pass! WE can do nothing without Him and this experience too, comes to pass so we may know Him and His Glory by experience of the contrast.

Hope this helps you

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
Title: Re: Free Will
Post by: graceman on December 11, 2006, 03:38:37 PM
Kennymac...I particularly liked your story.  I'm thankful that God is delivering you from the BIG LIES concerning where life comes from.  Thanks for sharing your testimony. :)
Title: Re: Free Will
Post by: Phazel on December 11, 2006, 05:57:26 PM

Thanks everyone for the encouragement.  I slowly come to more understanding and try to see the truth.

In some ways its like this.

I read and study and I feel the way I feel.   I think about giving up, but I do not.  I see others who have given up and thats when I start thinking more about choice.


More and more I see that Gods purpose is beyond this life.   I cannot help but read scripture and see that because I cannot stop reading and searching Gods truths even when thinking about giving up, I can only conclude that God is drawing me and I can onl;y think this because God has allowed me to think it.

My individuality comes as a result of my understanding of it, rather than saying I chose to do any of it on my own.

I think of others who have given up,   but did they?  or does it seem like it because we are bound in the deception of choice.  If  Gods purposing everything, then what they did was a part of Gods plan.

I still have a long ways to go, but hopefully I am not one of those who God allows to give up.

Title: Re: Free Will
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on December 11, 2006, 06:10:52 PM
Hello Phazel

I think you are starting to get it! You are starting to see who you are as reflected by the choices that you are making! :D And more importantly you are starting to see who God is in His Sovereignty!  ;D For me this is called judgment. 1 Cor 11 :31 For if we searchingly examined ourselves, detecting our shortcomings and recognizing our own condition, we should not be judged and penalty decreed by the divine judgment.

Welcome to the body of Christ!

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
Title: Re: Free Will
Post by: Kat on December 11, 2006, 06:45:33 PM
Hi Phazel,

If God is the only one who can grant me this faith, why do I desire it while it seems to elude me?

It takes time, if your eyes are being opened, you are in the race.
I like what Arcturus said,

If at first you do not understand….then try….try and try again. Reading the papers on the Myth of Free will is so easily written and is a clear step by step meditation that you can digest bit by bit.

Every time you go back over it you will gain more insight, but it takes time for all this to soak in  :)
But take comfort that you are in the race, and the prize will be worth it.

1Co 9:24  Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it.

Salvation is a free gift for all.
But there is a prize,
it is only for those few that God has chosen to "run that you may obtain".
And God will give us the encouragement we need, so that we will press on.

Phi 3:14  I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

This prize is only for those who God shows that Christ did not die to the flesh,
so that we could live in it, but that He died to the flesh so that He could live His life in us.

Gal 2:20  I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

This is what it means "who now rejoice in my sufferings on your behalf, and I fill up the things lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh, on behalf of His body, which is the church;" Col 2:20.

Christ did not suffer so that would not have to suffer.
He suffered so we could be counted worthy to suffer with Him and, "fill up...the afflictions".
We are predestined to endure,  "If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us." 2 Tim 2:12

Phi 1:29  For to you it is given on behalf of Christ not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

We are "... joint-heirs with Christ; so that if we suffer with Him, we may also be glorified together."
Rom 8:17  

We can not fully comprehend how great a privilege it is to be among the elect,
the blessed few who press on to obtain the prize.

mercy, peace, and love

Title: Re: Free Will
Post by: JDH on December 11, 2006, 10:01:45 PM
This is going to sound odd, but isn't possible that we have free will and don't have free will at the same time depending upon perspective.  Let me illustrate.  If you are in a car traveling a hundred miles and you throw a ball in the air, to you the ball is not traveling that fast.  To an outside observer it is traveling at least a hundred miles an hour.  Now take the idea of free will.  Within the space-time continuum all of our actions are of our own free will.  This however is assuming time exists.  Now in God's perspective, time doesn't exist. God was and is and will always be. This would mean that God knows all that has and will happen, in fact he deemed it to be so.  That being the case though, is it not possible to have free will within our microcosm.  It is more of a human concept to say that we have choices that we must make.  That does not necessitate that it be true outside of time, only in our own universe.
Just a thought
Title: Re: Free Will
Post by: Kat on December 12, 2006, 01:35:09 AM

I am trying to understand this line of thinking.
Maybe it is that God has made time as a reference for man to go by,
certainly God does not need time.
also God does make it appear to man that he has free will, but that is just an illusion.

I found this in Ray's 'Free Will- part C' article and also a email,
that seems like it could touch on this idea. -----------------------------------------
                         VERSUS THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD
Last time I said that I would show you in the Scriptures an example where God tells us that He uses people to do His will, but that the one being used doesn’t know it, but rather thinks that he himself is doing the choosing and making the decisions and carrying out the intentions of his heart all according to his own presumed free will, whereas God says that it is He, and not the person being used, Who is in total control of the one being used.  (The example of King Assyrian is in Isaiah 10:5-17:)

That section of Scripture is pretty much self-explanatory. This is a perfect example where God fills in the whys and wherefores of how He operated and worked with the king of Assyria to punish His people, Israel.

But this is also how God works with all kings and presidents, and heads of corporations, and heads of families, and all humanity. God “…works ALL according to the counsel of His Own will.” But just like the King of Assyria, not so is all humanity thinking in THEIR heart. They don’t believe that God uses them on a daily basis just as He did with the King of Assyria. That’s because:

“He [God] has made everything FITTING in its season; However, He has put OBSCURITY in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does from the beginning to the end.” (Ecc. 3:11).,2354.0.html -------------------------

Dear Whirlwind:

You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?"  It is BOTH.  Listen:  God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE.  That's it. That's all there is to it.  That IS the principle. That IS the Truth.  That IS what the Bible teaches.  It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices."  You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation.  It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."

I hardly know what else to tell you.  God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain,or his will, or his hopes and dreams.  They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.  So then we don't make choices, right?  NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES.  It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see.  Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED.  And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that?  He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.

So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS?  Well, does He?  Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls?  That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will.  They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right?  Wrong, wrong, wrong!  Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them.  He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things. And who created the Devil?  That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things.  Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money.  God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT.  They volunteer with little outside influence.  God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak. Eve couldn't help but sin.  God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.

I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it.  Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!

God be with you,


Hope this was relative to you post  :)

mercy, peace, and love

Title: Re: Free Will
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on December 12, 2006, 01:39:56 AM
Hello JDH

That does not necessitate that it be true outside of time, only in our own universe.

It is OUR OWN UNIVERSE that is mistaken, delusion, deception. We live in our own understanding and wisdom to our own detriment.

Remember Jesus Christ was fully man and fully Son of God. He always knew that He could do nothing without God. He told us we can do nothing without Him. Either we believe Him 100% or we make little deals with our rationality and believe only partially, subject to, and depending on etc. Either way, we fool ourselves if we begin to make compromises to suit our understanding and our own comfort zones.

Free will means uncaused will. There is NO such thing, NOT EVER. It is like saying the square is round in the water but oblong only in space. That's nonsence and this method in madness is what Mystery Babylon is adept at teaching. It is what gets many into the illusion of God only being partially Soveriegn. That is nonsence too! :D Subtle,...logical, plausable to our own ways of thinking.... but nonsence! ;D That is what makes it so highly toxic to understanding, because it makes you think you know something and off you go when in fact you haven't a clue! Half truths. They are the snakes venom without the bite. The firey dart that gets past having faith in Christ and what He says alone. The tare sown among the wheat looks real but it is an invader.

If you read the Myth of Free Will a few times more, you may catch sight of what I am trying to share with you. God's ways are not our ways no matter how reasonable we may think our view points are and no matter how reasonable they may appearto us or others. Our thinking is like seeing the illusion in the desert of the oasis. If you are thirsty you will see it alright but it is not real. I can see what you are seeing. It is a real argument but not one that will lead  you to the true oasis and real living water of knowing that God is Sovereign. Hope you can see that.

I enjoyed your perspective Kat. Much encouragement in the scriptures you saw from where you are standing for all of us who suffer to be disciplined through suffering  to enter the Kingdom only through trials etc.

Peace to you all

Arcturus. :)
Title: Re: Free Will
Post by: Phazel on December 12, 2006, 12:19:21 PM
  God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT.  They volunteer with little outside influence.  God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak. Eve couldn't help but sin.  God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.

This is what usually gets my head to explode.

If God says he creates evil and everything is for his purpose and what I am reading on Rays site is true..... Then what other conclusion can be reached but a man raping a little Girl is a part of Gods plan?

To say its not is to say that when a little girl gets raped God was surprised that it happened.   

The thing I am beginning to wrap my measly brain around is that the emotional aspect of evil is not the point of that actually being right or wrong from the standpoint of Gods soverignty.  But.. to be honest, at this point,  I do not  believe that we can understand why God does not want a little girl to be raped but it happened nevertheless according to his purpose. 

I think I just had an anyurism.....

Title: Re: Free Will
Post by: Kat on December 12, 2006, 01:49:06 PM
Hi Phazel,

This is a very difficult thing to reconcile in our mind, that the evil things that happen are according to God's purpose.

I have come to Look at this world, as being the evil experience we all must go through, so that we will truly appreciate what God has in store for us later.  I know we want to think we could be just as happy if we didn't have to go through this evil now, but God has determined differently, we need to experience this life (the good and evil) to really learn what we need to know.

We have to except that God knows what He is doing.
I believe when the life in this world is over and finished for all, and it is a relatively short life;

Jam 4:14  who do not know of the morrow. For what is your life? For it is a vapor, which appears for a little time, and then disappears.

I believe the glory that awaits all of God creation, will make the time we had to spend in this world, a dim memory.

1Co 2:9  But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"--

Here is another email of Ray's on this subject.,224.0.html -----------------------------
Dear Marcus:

I have explained this many times, but there are few who can understand it.  God created man subject to VANITY (failure). God made mankind that way. It is absolutely stupid for theologians to deny it. God plainly tells us this in Rom. 8:18:25.

Man has naturally a natural mind, a mind of flesh, called in Scripture the "carnal mind" and it naturally HATES God and cannot keep His law (Rom. 8:7).

But if you or anyone does not even believe these Scriptures, why go further?  God made man is testerone. His natural inclination is to have sex with pretty women--OFTEN.

Then God turns around and tells man to not have sex with pretty women AT ALL--only in marriage.  God doesn't MAKE OR FORCE man to desire sex with women. Man  desires that all on his own. Some men desire sex with children. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCED men to have sex with children.  Some men do it naturally. Are you following me?

God could stop all men from having sex with children.  But He doesn't. That's because God has a plan for the human race that involves humans doing things so horrible, that they will eventually learn to never trust their own heart and mind again. The must have faith and trust in God through His Holy Spirit.

All men would have sex with little children if they grew up under the same circumstances as the men who do have sex with little childrfen. This is a sobbering thought that few theologians alive have ever contemplated for more than 2 and one half seconds.  And women have their particular natural inclanation to commit horrible sins.  This is God's creature, not mine. This is God's plan with humans, not mine.  I can justify God in all His ways. Most can't. God will rectify and reconcile all things that has ever been committed.

God be with you,

mercy, peace, and love