=> Email to Ray => Topic started by: Craig on February 24, 2008, 06:08:48 PM

Title: What the hell?
Post by: Craig on February 24, 2008, 06:08:48 PM
Dear Edward:  I read the first paragraph of your paper:

"First and foremost hell is eternal (Isaiah 66:24; Matt. 18:8; 25:41; 25:46; 2 Thes. 1:9; Jude 1:7), everlasting (Dan. 12:2; Matt. 25:46), and lasts forever and ever (Jude 1:13; Rev. 14:11; 20:10). There is no other way to state it; hell will never cease to exist.

Secondly, hell itself is described as a lake of fire (Rev. 19:20; 20:10, 14, 15; 21:8),

eternal fire (Matt. 18:8, 25:41; Jude 1:7), unquenchable fire (Mark 9:43), the second death (Rev. 20:14), and darkness (Matt. 8:12; 22:13; 25:30; Jude 1:13)."

What an unscriptural crock!  And your second paragraph is even worse. EVERY statement in this paragraph and the second (that's all I read: that was enough for me) is not only unscriptural, but anti-scriptural.


"First and foremost...." there IS NO HELL in the Holy Scriptures. Only in the King James and related family of bibles. And the words spuriously translated "hell" in these bibles is assuredly not "eternal." Read my paper on my home page: "Is EVERLASTING Scriptural?"  Matt. 25:46 does not speak of "everlasting punishment," but rather the Greek is "eonian (or age-lasting) chastisement (or correction). The reward of the elect is also "eonian," not eternal.  Nowhere is "eternal" anything promised in the Scriptures, as there did not even exist a single word in any language on earth until the second century AD that carried the meaning of "endless time," and by then the Holy Scriptures were already finished. We are promised "immortality--death-less-ness," not "eternal" life, and yes, it is more than semantics.

And "hades" translated "hell" in many bibles (but not all), absolutely will cease to exist. Hades in the realm of the dead, and God will "abolish/destroy death (I Cor. 15:26), but who believes the Scriptures. That verse is not only in the all bibles, but it also IS in the Greek Manuscripts, unlike the word "hell."  Death is, the ACT of dying, the CAUSE of dying, and the STATE of being dead--see any good dictionary. And, all three "death" WILL BE DESTROYED.  "Death and Hell" are thrown INTO the lake of fire, so how can hell/hades BE the lake of fire as you suggest?  And "Gehenna" is not "hell or hades"  Gehenna is "The Valley of the son of Hinnom." 

The scholarship in your paper is non-existent. No scientist or engineer  building a shuttle to carry live people would ever be excused of such sloppy and dangerous work. But in the case of the fabricated "Christian hell," not only is it unscriptural and anti-scriptural, but it is also evil and absolutely blasphemes the character and nature of our Loving God. What totally insane theologian was the first to suggest that "torture in literal fire for all eternity for the sins of a life that is but a vapor, is JUSTICE?"  Unbelievable.  UNBELIEVABLE!!

May God rush the day in which He will JUDGE THE WORLD IN RIGHTEOUSNESS (Acts 17:31) by His Son and our Lord and Saviour of the World, Jesus Christ!

God be with you,

Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Craig on February 24, 2008, 06:12:50 PM
Dear Edward:  I will make a few COMMENTS in your email.......

    It is extremely easy for one who has not subjected himself to academic criticism (earning a PhD or ThD degree) to point and say this is unscholarly since I have the credentials and the time invested into an education moreover since you by way of not reading the entire piece pass judgment show a complete lack of maturity as even a lay critic.

    COMMENT:  Not so, Edward. Why should I read "the entire piece?" In your first three sentences you make NINE FALSE AND UNSCRIPTURAL STATEMENTS.

     As for sloppy or dangerous work , this was not a paper on the subject but an outline for teaching it.

    COMMENT:  Since when can an "outline" contain countless errors and falsehoods but not come under the same scrutiny of a complete article?

     You try to pass yourself off as a scholar

    COMMENT:  That's a lie.  I have never, ever, ever tried to pass myself off as anything other than what I am. I have never claimed to be a scholar or an expert on ANYTHING academic.

     and yet you fail to address what I have written and just dismiss it out of hand by parroting your own rhetoric rather than by examining what I have written.

    COMMENT: But I did examine two paragraphs. There are nine false statement in the first paragraph, and I said that the second paragraph was even worse.

     As for the un Scriptural crock I think I sited sufficient Scripture for you to have at the very least not taken a belligerent attitude. That is real Scriptural and in line with loving a brother in Christ!

    COMMENT:  Oh really?  "REAL Scriptures" you present to prove you statements, do you?  "Bible" verses are not always "SCRIPTURE." Let us see:

    YOU STATED:  ""First and foremost hell is eternal (Isaiah 66:24; Matt. 18:8; 25:41; 25:46; 2 Thes. 1:9; Jude 1:7)..."  Does Isa. 66:24 say anything about "eternal" anything? NO. Matt. 18:8 speaks not of "everlasting fire"--that's King James bible talk. The Greek Scriptures says: "aionio/eonina/age-abiding fire." Likewise, Matt. 25:41 and 25:46. The word is "aionios" which does not translate to "everlasting."  Both of these verses speak of Judgment, not eternal torture. In II Thes. 1:9 it speaks of "aionios/eonian/age-lasting destruction/ extermination," not destruction which lasts for all eternity. Besides if this verse were really speaking of "eternal/everlasting" DESTRUCTION, then it would contradict all the Christian bible verses that supposedly teach an eternity of physical torture, rather than a "destruction." And the fire that destroyed Sodom in Jude 7 can hardly be "eternal," as no one even knows for sure where those citi es were located. Regardless there is no "fire" there today. Besides the word is "aionios"--pertaining to an AGE, not "eternal."

     As for you throwing out Greek and giving its interpretation, do you read Greek and Hebrew, well I do! I don't have to depend on someone else's interpretation and their extrapolation of the meaning. 'Chastisement' means to punish look it up in a dictionary! 'Age lasting' means forever look it up! It is easy to pontificate when you have no accountability for either you scholarship or lack thereof!

    COMMENT:  Edward, I THANK GOD, that there are Hebrew and Greek Scholars of the highest caliber, who know these languages well, but who have no Christian pagan ax to grind, and therefore are completely honest in their research. See the many scholars I use in my paper "Is EVERLASTING Scriptural?"  I don't rely on my own abilities. I am well aware of the proverb that tells us there is "safety in the multitude of counselors."

    Let me ask this rhetorical question of you.  When was the last time you lead someone to the Lord and discipled them? .

    COMMENT:  I receive thousands of letter from those who have come to God or returned to God after reading my materal. Here are a couple that I just received:

        Subject: Re: THANK YOU !!!!!!!!
        Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008

            THANK YOU!!!

            Dear Shannon: It is for you that we even exist here at
            Here's another:
            Dear wonderful servant of GOD,
            You have truly blessed me with your website.  I have been released of so many fears of GOD that I had, by reading your articles.  First, I quit going to church because of tithing.  I am a single mother that does not receive child support.  I thought that I was TERRIBLE because I could not afford to give 10 percent of my salary.  I always felt ashamed when they passed around the offering plate and I could not give anything.  I have always felt that it is more important for me to LOVE everyone, but putting GOD first.  I could go on and on how your website has helped me but I am trying to keep my e-mail as short as possible.  I thank GOD for you.  You have really helped me understand things that come from GOD, not men.  I am now more confident than ever about being a servant of GOD, not man.  I will follow the 2 rules that Jesus gave us:  Love GOD with all our hearts and Love our neighbors.  To me, my neighbor inclu des everyone.  Thank you very much for providing this website at no cost.  I honestly appreciate you :-)  Amy
            As long as you believe that "aion/aionios" can be translated "eternal or everlasting or for ever AND EVER," you will never understand the Scripture, the Gospel, or the Plan of God.
            God be with you,
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Craig on February 24, 2008, 06:15:54 PM
No Ray personally not over the internet, face to face like Jesus did Ray! Do you go to a church? Do you function in the real world?  So Ray would you consider Bruce Metzger a credible Greek scholar? Well that's who taught me! How about Dr. Jack Holt he taught me Hebrew. Are you insinuating that I don't meet the caliber of your scholars? How would you know you do not have a list of my credentials and you have never read any of my published works! And just what is a Christian Pagan axe to grind? You are so caught up in a cult like mentality only you can pronounce the true meaning of Scripture. Can you point to any one who has held your beliefs in the past 100 years. So on Sunday are there a few of you who get together for worship or do you worship with a few thousand! What missionary work do you perform aside from attacking other ministries and espousing your theology!
As for the 9 statements it would help if you listed them and then site why they are either un-Scriptura l or inaccurate. I stated that there is a difference between an outline and a paper on a given subject and I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you misconstrued what I sent you. Obviously you cannot recognize the difference between a scholarly exercise and an outline for instruction.
And I am positive you have lost your mind when you say that Bible verses are not always Scripture. Scripture is Scripture or are you part of the "Jesus Seminar", 'He really did not say that' school of believers?
And just because there are some uneducated and unknowledgeable people who view your site does not make you any more credible than the Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses. For they too have email testimonials. If agreement was the only source of validation the Roman Catholic Church has more hits to its web site than any religion and the positive testimonials out weight the negative 4 to 1. So I guess we should all go out and become RC's? Using your logic.
Not one of those testimonials are about you leading someone to salvation through you personal testimony and it is certainly not descipeling them over the internet. There can be no accountability unless you have face to face contact.

Dear Edward: Paul was taught at the feet of Gamaliel, and what did that knowledge do for Paul? He became the WORST [chief] sinner who ever lived (I Tim. 1:15). And I am sure that Gamaliel was every bit the Hebrew Scholar that Bruce Metzger is. And how is it that Metzger cannot see that the Johanan Comma is not and never was "Scripture?"  Yes, Scripture is Scripture, but spurious bible translations are decidedly NOT Scripture.  So you spit on my two email testimonials, do you?  You will give account for that one day.. And if you think that the Internet is "not the real world," let me assure you that you are living in a fog. Internet communication is just as effective and a thousand times faster than any attempt to reach millions of persons "face to face." Over 3 million unique visitors have come to our site to day. How many of those do you suppose I could have reached "face to face?"  Did Paul teach every convert in Asia "face to face?" Does that make hi s many epistles of no value? Are you crazy?  I am a member of "The Living Church of God," however I do not attend nor am I affiliated with any denomination or institutional church of men. I do meet as often as possible with those of like mind, however.

This will end my conversation with you, Edward.  I do no believe that you are teachable at this present time or interested in the major and most profound truths of Scripture.

God be with you,