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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: musicman on March 23, 2008, 07:55:04 PM

Title: Church Services
Post by: musicman on March 23, 2008, 07:55:04 PM
I was just interested in the oppinions of others here on an issue.  As my title suggests, I am a musician.  I take musical performance very personal as monetary compensation comes in at a distant second, to the opportunity of playing music.  Afterall, I pay my bills in a field having little to do with musical skill (I teach music to children). 

The problem (if that is the proper term) is in my dealings with Babylon.  See, as a musician it is unwise to refuse work.  This includes work involving the Babylonian church system.  For instance, today (Easter Sunday) I played two services at a church and made some cash.  I also played in an Easter Pagent last week.  Now, I cringe at the thought of serving the Synogogue of Satan but I feel that this is part of being an instrumental performer (which I most definately am).  Now it's one thing to attend church out of curiosity for what may be taught there these days.  It's another thing to serve them for musical exposure or monetary gain. 

I would like any oppionions that truth seekers here may provide on this subject.   
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: Craig on March 23, 2008, 08:41:28 PM
Everybody here can give you an opinion, and that's all it would be, opinion. 

We are not under the law but under the Spirit of God.  Now what does that small, still voice say to you?

If you are asking the question, you must be troubled.  I have found in my walk that when I am doing something that is troubling to my spirit, then maybe I should not do it.  I don't always listen however, and the older I get the more I can look back and see that I should have listened to that voice.

I don't know your age but I wish someone would have told me this when I was younger, Sorin and Alex listen up ;)  Trust that voice of the Spirit, we are all in a spiritual struggle; the voice of God vs the voice of the beast within.  If you feel the pull towards the flesh and deep down it does not seem right to you, then don't do it.  Life is full of these types of choices and the choices we make (and baggage it carries) will be with us the rest of our lives.

Choose wisely, most who have chosen wrong in their lives will tell you they felt deep down that they ignored their intuition concerning their actions.  God puts us on this earth and puts heavy obstacles in our paths, knowing that we will fail by our own unwise choices.  But I also believe He puts the ability through His spirit to know what the wise choice would be, we just choose to ignore it.

Blessings
Craig
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: psalmsinger on March 23, 2008, 11:03:19 PM
The Lord shut every door to me for "church musician" as he slowly opened others.  It was very curious. I used to wonder why....................

The Lord will answer the question about why He has opened that particular door for you in time.

Rest in the Lord,

Barbara
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: dewey on March 24, 2008, 12:41:29 AM
Hey, Musicman, my brother

You feel that you've done wrong - but have you really?  I like most of your posts.  Some of them are very spiritual.  Some of them are downright funny.  And most of them are something that Jesus would have said himself.   You say that you feel guilty for earning money; have you given a thought about how many people you made happy today?  Your music is a God-given talent.  You may have spoken one word to just one person and that could very well be the reason that you were there.  If you weren't supposed to be there the spirit that we share would have stopped you.  But, if you did this on your own, awwwwwwwh are you in trouble!!  (jokin' my brother, just jokin').   

The music that came from your heart today could have and probably was for holy purposes.  The cash was a bonus.  God gave you this ability to make people happy.  Whether you get paid or not is beside the point.  Hey, my brother, don't make me tell you this scripture where Jesus tells our Father that he does not want to take his people out of the world.  You know the one I speak of.  But I have to tell you, my friend, that now you have second thoughts and you feel conviction you may never want to do that again.  On the other hand, I can't help but think that the Spirit that has encouraged you to preach the Gospel in your own way (thru song) is directing you as His Will Be Done.  I do not think that you should feel guilty for proclaiming the word of Jesus.  Whether thru a pulpit or thru song.  I'm not sure Jesus has a preference.  It's what's in your heart that counts.
\
In His Spirit,

Paula & Dewey Love All People That Will Let Us
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: CEO on March 24, 2008, 01:18:00 PM
Musicman

Tough question.  We are in this world; not of this world.  We influence others, your presence in the 'synagogue' would lead others to think you approve of what the synagogue represents.  On the other hand others influence us, knowing you you mentally critique and rebut what is being taught ie. you are not influenced by them, among them not in them.

Why did Jesus associate with the undesirables of his culture?  To show a better way.  How does your playing show a better way?  To your fellow musicians it sure can be an opportunity!

Why did Paul enter the synagogues, the seat of Satan?  To show a better way, to convert from one religion to the true.  Is this the same reason we enter the synagogue?

All of us need income.  The source of income always comes from the carnal world.  Would Ray have done a roofing job for a church?

Let me know what your answer is.

Askseeknock Charles
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: David on March 24, 2008, 11:25:24 PM
Wow Musicman, they pay you for performing in services? My old Church owes me some money  ;)
Seriously, as has been pointed out by CEO, it is your profession, therefore when you perform you should be paid if that is what has been agreed. If a Christian electrician was employed to do some wiring in a Jewish Synagogue, or a Muslim mosque, or a Church that conflicted with his denomination, would he refuse to do it and would he be Biblically right in doing so? I couldn't answer that myself, but it sure would limit ones options to make a living were you to ONLY work for people that believed exactly as you do. For all a Christian bus driver knows, he could be picking up a member of Anton Levey's church of satan. So long as you don't partake of them spiritually, do nothing illegal or immoral, thats about as good as you can do.

1 Cor 10:31-33 ........whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

I had a hard time with this scripture for a long time. I worried myself to distraction as whether all that I did was to the Glory of God. Well as carnal human beings, the chances are the answer is no we are not, not 24/7. But so long as we recognise it, and strive to do all to the Glory of God 24/7, we're on the right path.
A brother who was an elder in my old Church once said to me because I played in a heavy Rock band (that plays mostly Christian songs) "I don't think what you are doing in this band of yours is acceptable, certainly not in this Church anyway. You're a member of our worship team, it just doesn't seem right that you should do this as well." I could have been more gracious with my reply, but it just rubbed my carnal mind up the wrong way at the time. I knew he was a manager of a local supermarket. I said to him "Well I'll do you a deal, you go pull that beam out of your eye, quit your job at thew supermarket that sells soft pornographic magazines, magazines that promote homosexuality, hard liquor, violent movies and video games, and I'll quit my band." It didn't go down well.
Be blessed
David.
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: Chris R on March 25, 2008, 08:11:17 AM
I'll give my two cents,

I played at churches, years ago...it wasnt the music..it turned out to be the lyrics that bothered me. most of the lryics where just wrong...and even to this day..i just cant bring myself to play or sing them.

As for the wise crack about supermarket managers [ I run a super market ] hahaha

I sell kosher hotdogs to, also fatty greasy foods...nearly everything on the shelves has been tested and can cause some sort of health problem IF you over induldge. And if your looking at womens magazines, and lusting after the models posing on the front cover...who has the problem?..you cant walk down a street in america and not see the same thing.

Chris R
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: David on March 25, 2008, 08:35:38 AM
I'll give my two cents,

I played at churches, years ago...it wasnt the music..it turned out to be the lyrics that bothered me. most of the lryics where just wrong...and even to this day..i just cant bring myself to play or sing them.

As for the wise crack about supermarket managers [ I run a super market ] hahaha

I sell kosher hotdogs to, also fatty greasy foods...nearly everything on the shelves has been tested and can cause some sort of health problem IF you over induldge. And if your looking at womens magazines, and lusting after the models posing on the front cover...who has the problem?..you cant walk down a street in america and not see the same thing.

Chris R

Hi Chris. Yes is was a wise crack and I shouldn't have said it. Although the point I was making was the very point you have made here, there's pretty much nothing we can do these days where temptation is not around us, and no occupation that does not have some connection, however vague to something sinful.
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: phazel on March 25, 2008, 10:50:58 AM
But I also believe He puts the ability through His spirit to know what the wise choice would be, we just choose to ignore it.



OK, this is exactly why I can't wrap my mind around having no free will.   According to what we believe Ray has taught, the choice to ignore it was the only choice that could have happened, yet you word this as if thats not so.

Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: hillsbororiver on March 25, 2008, 11:38:17 AM
Exposing Those Who Contradict

Part 3

FREE WILL

"The One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will." (Eph. 1:11).

But the buck stops at God's throne. He has not given us the same powers He possesses, that's for sure. But man, puny man, thinks he has "human free will" that is never caused or made to think or do anything. Man thinks himself sovereign in this assumed free will.

The Scriptures know nothing of "human free will." This is just another case of human ignorance. Men do not possess free will, because free will does not exist. The reason that "free will" (the ability to make uncaused choices) does not exist is because it is a physiological impossibility!

The first edict of the universe is "cause & effect."

Nothing in heaven or earth can happen without a cause. For every effect there is a cause. There are no exceptions. No effect or happening of any kind in the universe, on earth, in our bodies, or in our minds can come into existence without a cause. And if something is caused, it cannot be free. That would be a total contradiction of words and logic. Humans do have wills. But wills are not free from causality.

" ... for it is GOD Who is operating in you TO WILL as well as to work for the sake of His delight" (Phil. 2:13).

This involves countless unperceived forces.

Don't confuse "will" with "choice." Someone might say: "If our choices, are caused, then how can one call it a 'choice'-isn't that a contradiction?" Not at all. Free will demands that when someone makes a "free will" choice, no thing or no one made or forced him to do so. It was completely up to him-one way or the other. People simply confuse the meaning and definition of words. The word "choice" has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the choice could have been avoided. A choice is merely what we prefer. Nowhere does the word "choice" carry with it the notion of "avoidability."

When one makes a choice, one selects what one prefers most at that instant. Nevertheless, something still caused that choice, whether one sees or feels its presence or not. One can argue that one made a free choice because one desired to do so. It still doesn't matter-the desire caused the choice, and the desire, itself, was caused. There are no exceptions. One may suggest that one did or said something without a cause simply because one willed to do so. Fine. But then even you are admitting that the choice had a cause, namely your will. One's wills and desires are not free from the laws of God or the laws of physics. These demand a cause for every effect. Man is not a deity. Man's will is not independent from his Creator (Phil. 2:13).

Read Mat. 7:18-23. Our Lord speaks of a large group of people (many), " ... in that day," who will justify their Christian walk by: "prophesying in Christ's name," "casting out demons," and "doing many wonderful works." (Ver. 22). Sounds pretty good to me. But there seems to be a problem when Christ says: " ... depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Ver. 23).

"Iniquity" is not the proper translation here. The Greek word is anomon-UN-LAWness or LAWLESSNESS. Man thinks by nature he is above the law in that "free will" is, itself, lawless. Thinking himself equipped with "free will" man feels a certain equality with his Creator. "Human free will," therefore, becomes the epitome of man's lawlessness. Man thinks himself a potter. However, to man's chagrin, God says He is the Potter and man is the "pot" (Isa. 64:8).

And God hates pride (Prov. 6:17, 16;18, 29:23), which is the bed-buddy of human "free will."

Anyone who is so deluded as to think he possesses powers so great as to be able to thwart the very Will of God, is certainly disqualified from being a teacher of the Word of God!

"Sin is lawlessness" (I Jn. 3:4). Free will is lawlessness.

http://bibletruths.com/part3.htm

This is a concept that is not the easiest to fully comprehend but if you really meditate on all the implications, when you were born (hour, day, year), who you were born to, your height, your intellect, the color of your hair and eyes, the country, state, city you were born in, what school you went to, the people who are/were your friends or enemies in the neighborhood you grew up in, the teachers you had in school.

Can anyone make an honest claim that they themselves chose when to be born or who their parents would be? You can "choose" your friends but from a finite set of people, you can "choose" do well in school (assuming you have the intellect) and the teachers you have are committed and competent but how many of these choices are "free choices?" The things that you can actually choose were caused by circumstances too numerable to list.

It is not the natural way for us to think as we have been indoctrinated with this false "free will" concept for all of our lives up until now, it is also a bit of an ego buster to contemplate how little we actually really control, we can attempt to make the best choices given our present understanding but when you really think about it the choices we are presented with are caused by an external Force greater than any and every man.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: Craig on March 25, 2008, 12:42:52 PM
But I also believe He puts the ability through His spirit to know what the wise choice would be, we just choose to ignore it.



OK, this is exactly why I can't wrap my mind around having no free will.   According to what we believe Ray has taught, the choice to ignore it was the only choice that could have happened, yet you word this as if thats not so.


No doubt that "free will" is tough to wrap.  I may have worded things wrong, wouldn't be the first time. :o

The following is how I wrap my mind on the free will issue.  Its my way of thinking, if I'm wrong I am open to correction, but I will not get into a what if debate either.  So here goes :)

We have choices, we make choices, God knows what our choices will be before we make them.  But at the same time I believe God puts it in our being to actually make a choice on things.  Do you think a sane person who murders has some thought go through his/her mind "I maybe should not do this"?
Musicman asked about a choice he is making. We all make choices and as we become closer to God, the choices get harder and harder, like musicmans.

Say I have a choice to make on whether to lie or not.  I know in my spirit, I should not lie, but ignore the voice of the Spirit and lie like a politician.  God created me in the weakened carnal state, so he knows what choice I will make, (I will fail)  and I will be held accountable for my choice. 

In our fallen state our choices are made on our own desires and wants, not God's.  God made us in the state we are in (carnal, sinning machines) so he is responsible for our spiritually weakened state, but we will be accountable for our fleshed out choices and desires, because we want to make them!  We ignore the voice of God in us and continue to do so until God drags us out of the mud of our flesh and we begin to pay attention to him.  It is a required step we all go through until God is all in all.

Cause and effect does come into play also.  It is only by the grace of God that I/all of us are not murderers and Hitlers.  Given the same circumstances (causes) we would all make the same spiritually weakened choices as these people, but God chose to lead us not into those temptations.  God makes us vessels of honor and dishonor, and who are we (clay) to question the potter?   But alas, I do and we all do, :(

If, in this lifetime, we could be of the same Spirit of God and one with Him, out of the thousands of choices we make a day, all our choices would be true and correct (Like Christs).  But we are not given this oneness of spirit, it is being made in our being.  We are being created into the image of God.

God knows the beginning and ending and the perfect steps it takes to go from one to the other.

We are not being made into puppets we are being perfected to being like Christ, where we are given many choices, and we make the right choices.  Then we can say that "I and my Father are one."

This is my thoughts on working out the "free will" illusion and I still struggle with the "whys".  I believe that "free will" is the hardest truth to comprehend because "free will" is the 'Heart and mind" of the beast (carnal man) and he won't let it easily die.

A good email of many
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2259.0.html

Craig
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: mharrell08 on March 25, 2008, 01:28:49 PM
Great post Craig...I couldn't agree with you more.
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: hillsbororiver on March 25, 2008, 01:34:57 PM
Great response Craig,

Our minds, desires and weaknesses are as unique as our DNA and our fingerprints, God is creating each and every one of us according to His plan, no two of us exactly the same. The one thing we will all eventually have (as you explained above) is our own wills aligned with the will of God.

This does not come easily or without the tribulations that more often than not come from making the wrong decision consciously from the heart, we usually know when we are making a bad choice but out of anger, lust, selfishness, impatience, etc. we do it anyway. Once we begin to really become sick and tired of the consequences and of ignoring that small, quiet (yet persistant) voice within then, and only then will we lay to rest our own will and seek only His.

We all need to listen intently to hear Him speaking to us and follow where He leads.

Peace,

Joe
 
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on March 25, 2008, 04:53:40 PM
From your post Joe, quoting Ray : When one makes a choice, one selects what one prefers  

This is so revealing as to show us what we prefer. WHAT WE PREFER, points to our spiritual condition. This is why we work out our salvation in fear and trembling because God willing, He shows to us our spiritual condition. When God does this, the consequence should be, fear and trembling knowing God is the potter and we are the clay. Only by His Grace we are made into vessles that house the Spirit of His Son.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: Chris R on March 26, 2008, 03:50:20 AM
Great response Craig,

Our minds, desires and weaknesses are as unique as our DNA and our fingerprints, God is creating each and every one of us according to His plan, no two of us exactly the same. The one thing we will all eventually have (as you explained above) is our own wills aligned with the will of God.

This does not come easily or without the tribulations that more often than not come from making the wrong decision consciously from the heart, we usually know when we are making a bad choice but out of anger, lust, selfishness, impatience, etc. we do it anyway. Once we begin to really become sick and tired of the consequences and of ignoring that small, quiet (yet persistant) voice within then, and only then will we lay to rest our own will and seek only His.

We all need to listen intently to hear Him speaking to us and follow where He leads.

Peace,

Joe


I also agree, The further we journey, the rougher the road.

We must repent, and God grants us this repentance, It is not of ourselves, unless we should boast and have pride in a accomplishment none of us are able to claim.  While we make choices good and bad, God has known from the beginning who are His, and there is nothing we are capable of doing that will change this one truth.

Will Gods chosen PRAY for wisdom...YES.. Will Gods Chosen ask for repentance..YES.. Will Gods Chosen NOT BE CHOSEN....NO!

All these things are directed from God, There in lies the demolishing blow to "free will".... One little verse

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.[John 6:37]

Peace

Chris R
 
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: hillsbororiver on March 26, 2008, 10:48:02 PM

I also agree, The further we journey, the rougher the road.


Ecc 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

Peace,

Joe
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: roundbellygroove on March 30, 2008, 10:05:02 PM

OK, Here's my two cents worth...

Musicman I can relate to your current situation. I too am a musician and have come to the very same crossroad that you are at. I currently volunteer at two community ministries and play drums for the worship team at my church. I understand how necessary it is to take jobs as a musician to support a family.  This is where the Lord has reviled to me my design and purpose.  Understand by God given nature, I am best with some type of instrument in my hand. Everything else I have tried to do(as a profession) I usually do fine for awhile and then become very miserable. Sure I make great money, have health insurance along with paid time off, but I'm not doing what I'm created to do and that is to play with all of my heart. Now some of you reading this might not understand what I'm talking about unless you are a heart and soul musician. There is something in musicans that keeps us playing and creating music all the time regardless of our circumstances. As a matter of fact...It's the circumstances that gives us a reason to play. I'm not referring to the wanna be's out there that want to be in the lime light in front of thousands. I'm taking about those that everything is musical to them. Everything in the sense that you notice machinery clacking together has a rhythmic timing or birds chirping possess a melodic phrase. Again there is something unique that God has placed in us to "Hear" and understand differently than others.
So here we are... and Lord has lead us to the truth through Ray. What do we do now? Knowing that 99% of modern day religions contradict God's truths AND going total secular is really not the way to go.(unless willed by the Creator)  Through a series of events the Lord reveled to me many types of "christian musicans".  Remember I work for a couple of community ministies as a sound engineer and have come across just about every kind of example there is. 
The first "type" is your full blown Babylonian musician. Usually very talented but is there strictly for the fame and what ever fortune they can get their hands on. Sure their songs have the word Jesus in them but, for the most part they are there to show off their talent and squeeze a buck or two in the process.
The next "type" is kind of like the previous but hides behind the mask of humility. They will give away a few Cd's or a t-shirt but really want people to tell them that they are really good and buy their stuff. Most church folk will think highly of them, because they are so humble and are willing to be a "starving artist" for the lord.
Then there is 3rd type...This to me is the real deal!!! They posses the heart of a true worshiper and only uses their talent to glorify the Lord at all times. They don't have a problem playing for free if necessary and are quick to develop relationships with others. You will find them after a show sharing their testimony, praying for others and in-couraging others to stay in the faith. Not being near the merchandise table to pimp out their stuff .  OH!!! and not mention that when they play the presence of the Lord is so thick you can barley stand regardless of their skill level. The Lord reviled to me that I am the latter of the three. 

SO WHAT DO I DO FOR AN INCOME LORD!!!! I asked. Then he shows me to How to charge for my for my talent by offering music lessons, sound and recording training sessions, PA installations, equipment consultation\repair.  The funny thing is... that all of my clientel are church establishments that do not share the same views as we do here at BT!  However I do supplement my work with skills that I have learned from other jobs as well. I do painting, tile setting and general maintenance on the side, but most of the time I'm dealing with your typical modern day church.

Musicman I hope my babbling will help you. As long as deep down in your heart you are Kingdom minded you will be fine. The Lord will reveal to you from time to time which jobs you should or shouldn't take.

roundbellygroove
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: phazel on March 31, 2008, 02:27:20 AM
Now some of you reading this might not understand what I'm talking about unless you are a heart and soul musician.


Actually, I know exactly what you talking about and I couldn't carry a tune if someone else held it for me.

I am an auto technician and have been for the last 30 years, I never tire of it.  I know people that make much more money than I do, but they cannot say they love thier job.   You can rarely get them to talk much about there job and I have a hard time not sounding prideful because I have a lot of great stories to tell about my work.

But I cannot imagine doing anything else, others have suggested that I try a new career or go back to college and learn something else.  I say, why would I stop doing something I love?  For me, there just isn't enough money to be made to cause me to endure hours and hours doing something I would just tolerate.  I would go mad.


Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: musicman on March 31, 2008, 01:05:22 PM
Hey Phazel:

I just received a call from the Pope.  They need someone to work on his escort vehicle (you know, the one that he stands and waves to everybody in?).  I was going to recommend you for the job.  It pays well and you will be serving the Catlics well.  Are you interested in the job?
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: phazel on March 31, 2008, 02:07:54 PM
Hey Phazel:

I just received a call from the Pope.  They need someone to work on his escort vehicle (you know, the one that he stands and waves to everybody in?).  I was going to recommend you for the job.  It pays well and you will be serving the Catlics well.  Are you interested in the job?



Sure, i think if I did that I would automatically be forgiven of my sins and I might skip purgatory if I filled up the washer jug with holy water.

Will holy water freeze?
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: musicman on March 31, 2008, 03:29:13 PM


Will holy water freeze?
[/quote]

Yeah, when Hell freezes over!!
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: Dave UK on March 31, 2008, 03:35:55 PM
Hi phazel

Quote
I just received a call from the Pope.  They need someone to work on his escort vehicle (you know, the one that he stands and waves to everybody in?).

Maybe you will be able to fit it with a 'catholic converter'

Dave UK
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: Vangie on April 01, 2008, 07:13:36 PM
Funny banter you guys, and it's also great to see some good hearted humor.  Wish I had something witty to contribute!

Musicman, you mentioned you're an instrumental performer.  What are your favorite instrument(s) to play, and what do you feel you really excel at when you're performing?  Me, my best instrument's probably the kazoo, and I'd sound horrendous I'm sure!  Still, I do appreciate music, and I enjoy picking out a single instrument in a song and trying to follow it from start to finish--like the violins in Creed's "Arms Wide Open".  (I should post that one on Samson's or Alex's threads about favorite groups or songs.)  Got off track on a sidebar there, sorry!  I was just wondering what kind of venues are suitable for your talents, as well as being just plain curious as well!   :D

Vangie
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: psalmsinger on April 02, 2008, 08:51:23 AM
Hello Fellow Musicians,

I cannot deny that God gave the me desire to bring forth music.   I have changed "music tracks" accordingly several times in my life's lessons.  All changes due to the merciful will of God. Although everything in the flesh is vanity, including music, I get answers to my agonizing about what God has desired me to do from these scriptures.    I think your disscussion has already agreed to the Word :)

Col 3:23
23   And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

Cor 10:31
31   Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

Phil 4:11
11   Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
(KJV)

Col 3:17
17   And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.



Rest in the Lord,
Barbara
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: musicman on April 02, 2008, 12:46:14 PM
Funny banter you guys, and it's also great to see some good hearted humor.  Wish I had something witty to contribute!

Musicman, you mentioned you're an instrumental performer.  What are your favorite instrument(s) to play, and what do you feel you really excel at when you're performing?  Me, my best instrument's probably the kazoo, and I'd sound horrendous I'm sure!  Still, I do appreciate music, and I enjoy picking out a single instrument in a song and trying to follow it from start to finish--like the violins in Creed's "Arms Wide Open".  (I should post that one on Samson's or Alex's threads about favorite groups or songs.)  Got off track on a sidebar there, sorry!  I was just wondering what kind of venues are suitable for your talents, as well as being just plain curious as well!   :D

Vangie

I'm a trombonist.  I also play the Euphonium (AKA Baritone) well.  My favorite kind of music is orchestral.  I also like to play chamber music.  Most church gigs are rather easy and not very musical.  It's just that musicians do these things.  If we are to be called for other jobs then we shouldn't turn these down.  Real opportunities are scarce.
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: indianabob on April 02, 2008, 02:09:45 PM
Joe and Craig & all others,

Thank you for the thoughtful input.
We need to keep the free will vs. choice topic fresh in our minds.

So many people in Christendom are deceived into thinking that the unchurched, the agnostics and even the professed atheist have chosen to ignore or reject God and Christ.  Then they think that they, being sincerely concerned for these folks, should pray for their eyes to be opened and for them, the unchurched, to be called into their one true denomination be it Baptist, Presbyterian or Church of God.

I truly believe it would be helpful to develop a short presentation of these ideas, that would stimulate interest and perhaps lead to deeper study, even if it was mostly based upon accurate definitions of terms.

So, thank you again for the helpful comments and references.  I think we have a little more work to do for the benefit of even those of us who agree and yet retain some confusion in our own minds.

Regards, Bob

Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: hdjohn on April 18, 2008, 02:20:08 PM
  Hi,
  I just wanted to say how impressed I am with all of your opinions on topics here on this forum especially ya'lls concern for the new guy, or gal and how they think!!!!!
                                                  THANKS,
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: Samson on April 19, 2008, 02:46:07 PM
Hey Brother Musicman,

                                Firstly, this is an interesting thread, their are some good comments posted, I especially liked Craig's first post, that showed great insight, the INNER VOICE and the closer you get to God and desire to do what's right and please him, the more difficult it becomes to make choices.

                                Also, living with the consequences of our choices, thereafter, but we always have the opportunity to learn from them and be disiplined.

                                 As Craig stated, we might have an opinion about what someone should or shouldn't do and that's all it would be, our opinion. It's your choice to make, no passing of Judgement will originate with me. I never had a circumstance like yours.

                                 I would like to share two Scriptures that came to my mind while viewing this thread and that's all their meant to be, a sharing.

                                 Romans. 14:23, " But if he doubts, he is already condemned if he eats, because he does not eat out of faith. Indeed, everything that is not out of faith is sin. "


                                 2 Corinthians. 1:12, " For the thing we boast of is this, to which our conscience bears witness, that with holiness and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom but with God's grace, we have conducted ourselves in the world, but more especially towards you."


                Just mentioned those Scriptures to you as a sharing, nothing else, but my wife and I especially thought Craig's first post was excellent and right on target.

                                         Your brother, Samson.
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: keth30 on April 20, 2008, 02:20:53 AM
This is just my opinion, and since your asking, I'll go ahead and give it.

To me it's not the same as an electrician going in to work at a synagogue that doesn't share the same belief systems.  The music that you are playing actually has a message to it, and if you strongly disagree with the message, even perceive it to be a blasphemous lie, yet you deliver the message and take money, how is it different from the preacher who delivers his sermon and gets paid from his flock?  At least the preacher believes what he is teaching.......  It just feels like dirty money. 

I'm not judging you.  I personally have wrestled with this same issue as I am a singer and my husband is a record producer for his own small label.  (It's his hobby, not our income)  My husband, who does not have the same belief system as me, has been at me for years to cut a gospel album.  I refuse because I know that his purpose is to make money, and I cannot bring myself to sell any sort of message that I feel God has given me.  It just feels like I would be selling God. 

Ultimately it is between you and God.

I hope this didn't sound too harsh, as I'm truly not judging you.  I'm still a smoker... :)

In love,
Keth30
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: psalmsinger on April 20, 2008, 10:09:37 AM
From your post Joe, quoting Ray : When one makes a choice, one selects what one prefers


Strange that the very week that I posted my first reply to this subject, I was offered a paying position as choir director.....LOL   Normally, I would have adamantly refuse at the first, but I was asked to pray about it and so I did.  This time I ask God what was the purpose of the offer and what was His will in the matter. I had no desire to do this, but I really wanted to fulfill God's will in the matter and not my own.  I spent some time talking to God about many situations I've been through to sort through His will. What were "they " thinking of, knowing my beliefs were not one with theirs? I could not imagine going through all that hogwash again.  I could not return to my "vomit".  That was a good reflection time.  I remembered this statement from Ray, brought forth by Joe and Arcturus........ and politely turned it down.    I still love music, feeling that I only have to practice/play/teach for the "Chief Musician" . Thanks everyone, maybe the Lord will allow us to jam sometime:)

Rest in the Lord,
Barbara


From your post Joe, quoting Ray : When one makes a choice, one selects what one prefers


This is so revealing as to show us what we prefer. WHAT WE PREFER, points to our spiritual condition. This is why we work out our salvation in fear and trembling because God willing, He shows to us our spiritual condition. When God does this, the consequence should be, fear and trembling knowing God is the potter and we are the clay. Only by His Grace we are made into vessles that house the Spirit of His Son.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on April 20, 2008, 04:44:43 PM
LOL that is so cool Barbara 8) and I too love music! ;D

It really is a huge advantage to know that God's will is for us to be like and as His Son who PLEASES Him in all His Ways, Thoughts and Purposes. When we look at what WE prefer we can know how far we have to go!....sort of :D
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: brandon h on April 20, 2008, 05:30:33 PM
Musicman,

     Brother, I can relate to your dillema. I too played in the worship teams in Babylon. And what I've realized about myself back then (before I was introduced to the truth) is that I was caught up in it all. I'm 27 years old, I played in worship bands from about 23-25. So I can say "well, I was younger back than", but the fact remains that the spirit was there that made it difficult to always be totally about God. I remember making it a proiority to try to stay humble, but sometimes feeling no different than when I played secular music in secular venues.

You know your heart and where you are with the Lord, my brother. But as Craig posted IF indeed you are struggling, it may be a sign. But ultimatley that is between you and the Father, and whaterver His will is for you, and you know we will not judge you. As for me, I still write songs for the Lord, but He has not reveled totally what I am to do with them. I desire to put out a cd of songs with lyrics inspired with God's truth. And for any musician that temptation will always be there to take glory for themselves, so I'm thankful for this post. We will be praying for you brother, and I ask that you pray for me as well as all other musicians who have this decision to face. My prayers are with you all.

God Bless
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on April 21, 2008, 02:45:48 AM
Hey Brandon h

Don't be hidding your tallent and let your light shine. When is that CD going to be recorded? 8)

Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: brandon h on April 23, 2008, 09:17:35 PM
Well I'm still in the process of writing and tweeking songs. It's been pressed on my heart for a while. I have a mini recorder that I'm using to fine tune the songs. But once it is ready, I'll let you guys know. Then I'll have to tweek my computer skills  :) so that it's free to download. It will not be for sale.
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: musicman on April 12, 2009, 09:49:30 PM
I was just interested in the oppinions of others here on an issue.  As my title suggests, I am a musician.  I take musical performance very personal as monetary compensation comes in at a distant second, to the opportunity of playing music.  Afterall, I pay my bills in a field having little to do with musical skill (I teach music to children). 

The problem (if that is the proper term) is in my dealings with Babylon.  See, as a musician it is unwise to refuse work.  This includes work involving the Babylonian church system.  For instance, today (Easter Sunday) I played two services at a church and made some cash.  I also played in an Easter Pagent last week.  Now, I cringe at the thought of serving the Synogogue of Satan but I feel that this is part of being an instrumental performer (which I most definately am).  Now it's one thing to attend church out of curiosity for what may be taught there these days.  It's another thing to serve them for musical exposure or monetary gain. 

I would like any oppionions that truth seekers here may provide on this subject.   

So I was drinkin the coolaid when. . . . . . . .god showed up again.  he said "Musicman, you must go play your instrument again this year at a church".  I says, but god, I've grown so much since last year, why go back to Babylon for the root of all evil (and fun) . . . .money?  he said, "u can use the money to buy me more of the tasty coolaid i tried a few months ago".  "But you have an assignment, and that assignment is to play as awfully as you humanly can".  "When the organist gives the cue, you call the cows home, you blow sounds that the devil himself hums in the shower."  "That'll get them people running from the darkness of Babylon to seek light."  "What i mean is they'll be running from that thing you play."


So folks, I was obeying a command from god.  UUuuummmm, except I played awsomely and that money's buying me, more coolaid.  god, I've failed ya again.
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 12, 2009, 10:45:55 PM
What a great thread...just for dragging it back up, I'm appreciative.

I don't have any advice for you, but I'll tell you a story.

A few years ago I was in hospital...sort of a ward setting ICU instead of a private room, full of beeping machines and other noises common in hospitals.  I was in pretty bad shape, but I remember so well lying there not too far from dead and hearing the various machines beeping, some louder as they were closer, and some more quiet.  Pretty soon a pattern started emerging...melody, rythm, a sense of timing, harmonies in thirds and fifths.  I smiled and started 'improvising', filling in the beat with a tap to my leg or just an imagined sound.  The nurses rustled outside, from time a time a curtain was pulled that gave a little 'zhing' sound.  Then, God bless whoever it was, someone started to moan.  Then it turned into blues.

I don't guess it lasted all that long, but laying there between death and life I was filled up with joy.  It was the first time I felt human again since getting wheeled into the place.  I'm surely not the musician you are, but like that auto mechanic earlier in the thread, I know what it is you're talking about.

I'm so glad now that Jesus is Lord.
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: musicman on April 12, 2009, 10:55:03 PM
Great story Dave.  I hope you don't have to go through all of that again.  The music is even better without the hospital bed.
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: Terry on April 13, 2009, 12:36:32 PM
Lake Of Fire  Xlll
What Happened to The Church That Jesus Built

Not teaching now, just was reading this and thought it pertained to this thread,

JESUS GOES TO CHURCH

Perhaps you never thought of Jesus going to Church, but He did. The first time that something is mentioned in Scripture, it is often very instructive. Although it was the habit of Jesus to attend local synagogues during His life, the first time the Scriptures mention Jesus going to the temple as a adult is in Matt. 21:12:

"And they came to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to CAST OUT them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple. And He taught, saying unto them, ‘Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the House of Prayer? But ye have made it a DEN OF THIEVES [Gk: ‘burglars’ cave’].’ And the SCRIBES and CHIEF PRIESTS heard it, and sought how they might DESTROY HIM: for they feared Him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine" (Mark 11:15-18).

What a revelation of the church of God we have in these three verses!

Jesus was so angry with the leaders at the temple for turning it into a money-making flea market, that he:

"cast out them that sold and bought in the temple"

"overthrew the tables of the moneychangers and seats of them that sold doves"

"suffered no one to carry vessels [of merchandise] through the temple"

Jesus said that they "made the House of Prayer a DEN OF THIEVES"!

Say, did you notice that they were buying and selling "…in the Temple?" Do you think that just maybe this has anything to do with the fact that,

"…NO MAN might BUY OR SELL, save he that had the MARK OR THE NAME OF THE BEAST, or the NUMBER OF HIS NAME" (Rev. 13:17)?

We will cover the Mark of the Beast in a later installment.

But this is all ancient history, isn’t it? The modern Church of God has not been turned into a "den of thieves" has it? Were the High priests and Scribes, going against the law of either their own religious beliefs or of Rome? No. No, they weren’t. So they were not "thieves" according to the Church or the Roman government. But were they thieves, nonetheless? Yes, they were, Jesus Christ SAID THEY WERE THIEVES, a whole "DEN OF THIEVES"!

At least the modern Church of God is not a "den of thieves," is it? I’m sure not all; you can be the judge:

One of the major factors in the Reformation was the disdain over the practice of the Church selling INDULGENCES. The American Heritage College Dictionary, "indulgence n. 6. Roman Catholic Church The remission of temporal punishment still due for a sin that has been sacramentally absolved."

Make no mistake about it:

"For the love of money is the [Gk. ‘a’] root of all evil" (I Tim. 6:10).

Before the Reformation, it was thought by some that one could practically "buy" one’s salvation.

Jesus "CAST OUT them that sold and bought in the temple." Is there, "buying and selling" going on in the Church today? Excuse me…does a cat have a tail?

Now don’t think that I am against money. Jesus Himself used money in his ministry (but he never sold in the temple, neither did He ever collect a penny in tithe money).

I couldn’t count the number of e-mails I have received in response to my article on tithing being unscriptural under the new covenant, in which they ask how they should pay their church utility bill if the people don’t tithe? I tell them to pay it with a check backed by money in the bank. All those interested in paying the utility bill should contribute voluntary offerings of money for that expense. This is not difficult. But no one under the New Covenant is obligated by law or conscience to pay ten percent of their salaries to a church! People under the Old Covenant, likewise, were not under law to pay ten percent of their salaries to the Levites. And, Yes, they did have money back then.

UNSCRUPULOUS PEDDLERS OF GOD’S WORD

After Jesus THREW OUT those who "bought and sold" in the temple, did they ever return? Not only did they return to the temple after Christ’s resurrection, but they also came into the very Church, which Jesus said HE WOULD BUILD. The whole temple system in Jerusalem was so utterly corrupt that they corrupted the people of Jerusalem and Judea as well.

In and around 70 AD the armies of Titus surrounded Jerusalem and there was an awful slaughter. You can read of these horrible events in the writings of Josephus. But even before the temple with its corrupt religious system was demolished, it had already spread its ugly tentacles into the Church which Jesus built.

Terry
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: Roy Martin on April 14, 2009, 10:59:18 AM
Terry, that's what I call shooting straight or not holding back any punches.
  Musicman, the money you were paid came from people that were scammed through tithing.
The music is about worship and praise to God. It cant be compared to doing electrical work or anything in that category.
 No judgment here just opinion as you asked.

Peace
Roy 
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: Vangie on April 14, 2009, 10:01:29 PM
Roy, I understand what you mean about the money coming from the blind tithers, but I must beg to differ regarding Musicman's services not being comparable to electrical work, etc.  He's a musician, and making music is how he earns/supplements his living.  (It's a tough one, which was the whole point of him starting this thread back when.)  My husband has bid on church jobs on the construction side of life; if he gets the jobs, wouldn't his pay come from the scammed tithers also?  At this point, we're in no position to turn down any income, if you know what I mean. 

Also, I think Musicman might be in a kind of "outside looking in" position that we can't really relate with in regards to actually and physically seeing Babylon in action.  Might even explain his oddball comments here on the forum.   ::) ;D ;D  I kill me. 

Hope this comes across as humorous and positive as I'm meaning it.  I'll be the first to admit that my sense of humor doesn't translate well in person sometimes, much less via the keyboard; but it's all meant in love.  :)

In Christ,
Vangie
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: charrie on April 14, 2009, 11:01:09 PM
Vangie, your humor came over just fine to me. :)

I have had quite a few experiences with churches HIRING musicians.  Putting adds on radio, etc..and hoping to get a christian to apply.  Churches have employees.   I do understand also about being paid with tithes.  BUT, you could pay titles while you are there and really be paying yourself to play  or contributing to your salary ;) ;)

We are lead by our Father's Spirit. 

Play that funky music white boy 8) 8) 8)

I hope my humor comes over well, too

Charrie :-*
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: Roy Martin on April 15, 2009, 08:32:49 AM
Good point Vangie and Charrie.
  Your replies remind me of the little old Christian lady that would come out on her porch every morning and shout, praise the Lord. Next door to her lived another little old lady that was atheist that would come out and say, your just making a fool of yourself. There aint no God, why don't you stop that?
 The next morning the Christian lady comes out and shouts praise the Lord. Lord I have no food or money and ask that you provide for my needs. The atheist lady comes out and says, there aint no God and He isn't going to answer your prayers, you are a fool.
 The next morning the Christian lady comes out on her porch and finds a couple bags of grocery's and shouts praise the Lord, I knew that you would answer my prayer. The atheist lady jumps out from behind a bush and says, ha! ha!, I told you there wasn't a God and that he wouldn't answer your prayers. I'm the one that put those grocery's there just to prove my point. The Christian lady shouts, praise the Lord. Not only did you answer my prayer and provide for my needs, you also made Satan pay for it. ;D ;D ;D

Peace
Roy
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: Vangie on April 15, 2009, 11:35:37 AM
 :D ;D :D ;D Good one Roy--very fitting!!
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: judith collier on April 17, 2009, 12:39:50 AM
I never would have known how musicians think or feel had I not seen the movie AUGUST RUSH. You guys sound just like the musicians in the movie, hearing sounds of everyday life and turning them into a song. My sister was the vice president of the grammy awards for 25 years and so I got to meet a lot of musicians through her. It was sort of surreal when talking to one because you can't believe you are really meeting that person whom you have admired for so long. I usually stumbled all over myself. Judy
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: tebza4jesus on April 17, 2009, 06:28:40 AM
Musicman,

I have come to learn and understand to judge whether my actions are good or evil, not solely based on the act itself, but rather on the motive behind the action. In other words "why am I doing or not doing this?" The answer normally helps me a lot in judging myself, for I know God looks within my heart and not my outward appearance. What appears evil to other people on the outside, might be judged by the TRUE JUDGE, who judges my thoughts and intentions, to be good. It all depends on why am I doing this. If my motives are in line with those of God, then I am free man.

The question which you should be asking yourself is, "Why am I doing this? Answer this to yourself, being honest to yourself, and I am sure you will then know what to do?
 
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: Roy Martin on April 17, 2009, 10:40:09 AM
Excuse me Musicman while I pluck this plank from my own eye. ;)

Peace
Roy ;D
Title: Re: Church Services
Post by: musicman on April 17, 2009, 11:41:28 AM
I was just interested in the oppinions of others here on an issue.  As my title suggests, I am a musician.  I take musical performance very personal as monetary compensation comes in at a distant second, to the opportunity of playing music.  Afterall, I pay my bills in a field having little to do with musical skill (I teach music to children). 

The problem (if that is the proper term) is in my dealings with Babylon.  See, as a musician it is unwise to refuse work.  This includes work involving the Babylonian church system.  For instance, today (Easter Sunday) I played two services at a church and made some cash.  I also played in an Easter Pagent last week.  Now, I cringe at the thought of serving the Synogogue of Satan but I feel that this is part of being an instrumental performer (which I most definately am).  Now it's one thing to attend church out of curiosity for what may be taught there these days.  It's another thing to serve them for musical exposure or monetary gain. 

I would like any oppionions that truth seekers here may provide on this subject.   

So I was drinkin the coolaid when. . . . . . . .god showed up again.  he said "Musicman, you must go play your instrument again this year at a church".  I says, but god, I've grown so much since last year, why go back to Babylon for the root of all evil (and fun) . . . .money?  he said, "u can use the money to buy me more of the tasty coolaid i tried a few months ago".  "But you have an assignment, and that assignment is to play as awfully as you humanly can".  "When the organist gives the cue, you call the cows home, you blow sounds that the devil himself hums in the shower."  "That'll get them people running from the darkness of Babylon to seek light."  "What i mean is they'll be running from that thing you play."


So folks, I was obeying a command from god.  UUuuummmm, except I played awsomely and that money's buying me, more coolaid.  god, I've failed ya again.

Just a reminder of why this post was excavated from the deep trenches of my insane archive:  Look above.