=> General Discussions => Topic started by: David on August 27, 2008, 07:56:44 AM

Title: 10% Jesus.
Post by: David on August 27, 2008, 07:56:44 AM
Hi everyone, I just thought I would share this with you just to show where some people hearts and minds are.

I received a message from someone that said "I see you believe in universal salvation. I would like to point out to you that Jesus will only save 1/10 people, the others will go to hell forever. It is impossible for Jesus to save everyone, there are just too many. God has a place in heaven for only 1 in 10. The Bible says that Jesus will not and does not have to save all the world (no scripture provided), he can only save 1/10."
So, Jesus Christ is a 90% failure in this mans mind, which in academic terms would make Him a drop out. God made such a hash of creating heaven according to this guy, He only has room for 10% of the population He created (so by impication this guy thinks heaven is a rock out ther some palce, must be a small one), if He were a property developer, He'd go out of business and fail miserably. And this 90% failure this guy worships with all his heart and mind.

Do you think Ray would give this a guy a "brilliant"?  ;)
Title: Re: 10% Jesus.
Post by: Chris R on August 27, 2008, 08:26:48 AM
Interestingly enough, this is nothing new under the sun, The quote below, was written by [retired] President John Adams, to then [retired] President Thomas Jefferson, in the year 1818.

I had debated on posting it in general forum, if only to show that all men were not deceived by such rubbish hundreds of years ago...however a word of caution, if this thread were to turn to a political discussion...i will have to remove it.

God has infinite wisdom, goodness, and power; he created the universe; his duration is eternal, a parte ante and a parte post. His presence is as extensive as space. What is space? An infinite spherical vacuum. He created this speck of dirt and the human species for his glory; and with the deliberate design of making nine tenths of our species miserable for ever for his glory. This is the doctrine of Christian theologians, in general, ten to one. Now, my friend, can prophecies or miracles convince you or me that infinite benevolence, wisdom, and power, created, and preserves for a time, innumerable millions, to make them miserable for ever, for his own glory? Wretch! What is his glory? Is he ambitious? Does he want promotion? Is he vain, tickled with adulation, exulting and triumphing in his power and the sweetness of his vengeance? Pardon me, my Maker, for these awful questions. My answer to them is always ready. I believe no such things. My adoration of the author of the universe is too profound and too sincere. The love of God and his creation — delight, joy, triumph, exultation in my own existence — though but an atom, a molecule organ- ique in the universe — are my religion. [John Adams]


Chris R
Title: Re: 10% Jesus.
Post by: Akira329 on August 27, 2008, 10:07:55 AM
That's interesting Chris, where did you find this quote?
Title: Re: 10% Jesus.
Post by: carol v on August 27, 2008, 01:13:32 PM
I would also like to know where this quote is from. I know there are some writings of Abraham Lincoln that are similar. It would be interestng to have both of those with footnotes...maybe a project for the weekend.
Title: Re: 10% Jesus.
Post by: Dave in Tenn on August 27, 2008, 02:03:22 PM
I think that's in the Bible someplace, David.  Bring your tithes into the storehouse, so Heaven is the storehouse and God will bring his tithes there and the rest will be burnt offerings.  I think I read that somewhere.

I'd go on, but I have to go start a denomination.  Others need to learn this truth and I need to make a living.
Title: Re: 10% Jesus.
Post by: youthfortruth on August 27, 2008, 02:52:19 PM


   Woe..that's about as radical as it gets..but hey, If Bill Wiese can decieve millions into believing he took a trip down into the earth's core, and witnessed the tourment of BILLONS while being torn apart by demons, I can certainly understand how someone might buy into that garbage.

 I think Ray would give him a brillant grade, seeing how, in his mind, your more likely to win the State lottery then go to Heaven.

Title: Re: 10% Jesus.
Post by: Kent on August 27, 2008, 04:49:07 PM

I am confused.

In the OP, where exactly did the 1 in 10 number come from?
This is real idiocy.
Title: Re: 10% Jesus.
Post by: musicman on August 27, 2008, 09:50:18 PM
I guess God's against people "being part of the crowd", those who hang around with the "in" group" (in hell that is), in other words, if you're cool, you goin to hell.  So now, I guess if you're one a those that had his underware pulled over his head by the "cool kids", or (if your a girl) couldn't accessorize well enough to impress the cheerleaders, or you played the tuba in the marching band (I know, the sousaphone) and the bell fell off right before you entered the field, you may be 1 of the 10% not to burn forever.  Guys, did you pee in your pants when you tried to speak to a fine chick?  Girls, did stuff fall out of your bra, revealing their true size to all, were you the butt of several laughable conversations at the arcade?  If so, relax.  You weren't part of the crowd.  It's eternal bliss for you, and eternally hot britches for Butch and his mega large breasted girlfriend. . . . . . and everybody that hung around them.


Hell's gonna be real crowded.   
Title: Re: 10% Jesus.
Post by: Chris R on August 28, 2008, 07:47:29 AM
That's interesting Chris, where did you find this quote?

There are many many letters written between the two men, over several years, you can find them on the web, bye searching Jefferson, Adams letters.

Chris R
Title: Re: 10% Jesus.
Post by: AK4 on August 28, 2008, 09:14:41 AM
This is the doctrine of Christian theologians, in general, ten to one. Now, my friend, can prophecies or miracles convince you or me that infinite benevolence, wisdom, and power, created, and preserves for a time, innumerable millions, to make them miserable for ever, for his own glory? Wretch! What is his glory? Is he ambitious? Does he want promotion? Is he vain, tickled with adulation, exulting and triumphing in his power and the sweetness of his vengeance?

Chris, i just love that Wretch part in there.  I cant forget it.  Its like how probably most of feel when we present so many proof scriptures to someone and they still refuse to accept the Truth.

Wretch.  I just love that. :D
Title: Re: 10% Jesus.
Post by: hillsbororiver on August 28, 2008, 09:15:10 AM
Here are a few from Abe;

The Religion of Abraham Lincoln

Many may know that Abraham Lincoln was one of our most deeply religious Presidents. Very few know how well he knew the scriptures--even better than some of the most prominent clergy of his day. Almost no one knows that he believed in the doctrine of universal salvation.

Here are a few excerpts taken from The Almost Chosen People by William J. Wolf (Doubleday & Company Inc, 1959).

"One of Lincolns associates, Mentor Graham, tells of Lincoln: 'He took the passage, As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive, and followed up with the proposition that whatever the breach or injury of Adams transgressions to the human race was, which no doubt was very great, was made just and right by the atonement of Christ.'" (page 47)

"...Lincoln wrote an essay about 1833 on predestinated universal salvation in criticism of the orthodox doctrine of endless punishment. It is also consistent with the evidence that in 1850, Lincoln, through the reading of his pastor's The Christian's Defense and his own wrestling with the problem, became convinced intellectually of the validity of the biblical revelation. Lincoln's conviction that God would restore the whole of creation as the outcome of Christ's atonement would have been in itself a bar to membership in the Springfield church he attended." (pages 103-104)

"Another associate, Isaac Cogdal, tells of a discussion on religion in Lincolns office in 1859: 'Lincoln expressed himself in about these words: He did not nor could not believe in the endless punishment of any one of the human race. He understood punishment for sin to be a Bible doctrine; that the punishment was parental in its object, aim, and design, and intended for the good of the offender; hence it must cease when justice is satisfied. He added that all that was lost by the transgression of Adam was made good by the atonement: all that was lost by the fall was made good by the sacrifice.'" (page 104)

"The second statement was one dictated by Jonathan Harnett of Pleasant Plains, describing a theological discussion in 1858 in Lincoln's office. 'Lincoln covered more ground in a few words than he could in a week, and closed with the restitution of all things to God, as the doctrine taught in the scriptures, and if anyone was left in doubt in regard to his belief in the atonement of Christ and the final salvation of all men, he removed those doubts in a few questions he answered and propounded to others. After expressing himself, some one or two took exceptions to his position, and he asked a few questions that cornered his interrogators and left no room to doubt or question his soundness on the atonement of Christ, and salvation finally of all men. He did not pretend to know just when that event would be consummated, but that it would be the ultimate result, that Christ must reign supreme, high over all. The Saviour of all; and the supreme Ruler, he could not be with one out of the fold; all must come in, with his understanding of the doctrine taught in the scriptures.'" (pages 105-106)

Headed for Heaven or Hell?

How would Lincoln answer? His political opponent, a famous frontier preacher, wanted to know.

Abraham Lincoln ran for Congress in 1846, and he faced a formidable opponent: Peter Cartwright. Cartwright, a raw-boned, circuit-riding Methodist preacher, was known throughout Illinois. During his sixty-five years of riding the circuit, he would baptize nearly ten thousand converts.

During the intense 1846 Congressional campaign, some of Cartwright's followers accused Lincoln of being an "infidel." In response, Lincoln decided to meet Cartwright on his own ground and attend one of his evangelistic rallies.

Carl Sandburg, in Abraham Lincoln: The Prairie Years, tells the story this way:

In due time Cartwright said, "All who desire to lead a new life, to give their hearts to God, and go to heaven, will stand," and a sprinkling of men, women, and children stood up. Then the preacher exhorted, "All who do not wish to go to hell will stand." All stood upexcept Lincoln. Then said Cartwright in his gravest voice, "I observe that many responded to the first invitation to give their hearts to God and go to heaven. And I further observe that all of you save one indicated that you did not desire to go to hell. The sole exception is Mr. Lincoln, who did not respond to either invitation. May I inquire of you, Mr. Lincoln, where are you going?"

And Lincoln slowly rose and slowly spoke. "I came here as a respectful listener. I did not know that I was to be singled out by Brother Cartwright. I believe in treating religious matters with due solemnity. I admit that the questions propounded by Brother Cartwright are of great importance. I did not feel called upon to answer as the rest did. Brother Cartwright asks me directly where I am going. I desire to reply with equal directness: I am going to Congress."

He went.

I close with "The Creed of Abraham Lincoln in His Own Words:"

"I believe in God, the Almighty Ruler of Nations, our great and good and merciful Maker, our Father in heaven, who notes the fall of a sparrow, and numbers the hairs of our heads.
I believe in His eternal truth and justice.
I recognize the sublime truth announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history that those nations only are blest whose God is the Lord.
I believe that it is the duty of nations as well as of men to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, and to invoke the influence of His Holy Spirit; to confess their sins and transgressions in humble sorrow, yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon.
I believe that it is meet and right to recognize and confess the presence of the Almighty Father equally in our triumphs and in those sorrows which we may justly fear are a punishment inflicted upon us for our presumptuous sins to the needful end of our reformation.
I believe that the Bible is the best gift which God has ever given to men. All the good from the Saviour of the world is communicated to us through this book.
I believe the will of God prevails. Without Him all human reliance is vain. Without the assistance of His divine Being, I cannot succeed. With that assistance I cannot fail.
Being a humble instrument in the hands of our Heavenly Father, I desire that all my works and acts may be according to His will; and that it may be so, I give thanks to the Almighty, and seek His aid.
I have a solemn oath registered in heaven to finish the work I am in, in full view of my responsibility to my God, with malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right as God gives me to see the right. Commending those who love me to His care, as I hope in their prayers they will comend me, I look through the help of God to a joyous meeting with many loved ones gone before."


Title: Re: 10% Jesus.
Post by: chuckt on August 28, 2008, 11:09:14 AM
sounds to me old abe bea heretic :P ;D 8)

very interesting stuff, i had heard Abe  was a universalist.

peace yall
Title: Re: 10% Jesus.
Post by: Dave in Tenn on August 29, 2008, 09:45:30 AM
Another reason to 'wretch':   >:(

How much has a belief in Hell diminished us as people?  Could you read The Diary of Anne Frank without worrying as much about whether a Jewish girl of 14 could get into heaven as you did relating to her struggle?  Can we enjoy art, history, music more now without having to justify and judge whether the people responsible for it shared our destiny, or would be snuffed out or tortured for all eternity?

Understanding the truth has not only brought joy into my life for MY sake, but has enabled me to look at the rest of humanity differently.  Loving our neighbors as ourselves is not just a commandment, but a priviledge and a gift.     
Title: Re: 10% Jesus.
Post by: frecklegirl417 on August 29, 2008, 01:36:18 PM

Very well stated Dave! Ever since I have found the truth I see the world in a whole new way. Its like a blind person seeing for the first time. To me all the colors in the sky, trees, flowers look more radiant. People seem totally different to me. They seem like, how can I put this without sounding crazier then I already am. ;D ;D I wonder if they know the truth or will their life change if they see the truth in me. Life just seems so much better for me since knowing the truth. I look at things in a whole new way.

                                                With God's Love & Understanding,
Title: Re: 10% Jesus.
Post by: David on August 29, 2008, 04:58:08 PM
Dave in Tenn and Frecklegirl, wonderful posts.
I absolutely identify with your renewed view of the world and humanity now that we have the truth. But, I also see the flip side so much more now too. I see now more than ever in the Church the depraved wickedness of people I not long ago regarded as Godly, and indeed I was right there with them. I really do believe that the wickedness of this doctrine cannot be overstated. One of the worst illustrations of it was the letter from hell video on youtube. That thing is so vile it is very difficult to reconcile that a "Christian" made that film and saw fit to broardcast it to the world, believing they were doing God and humanity a service. The most depraved human being that ever lived cannot even come close to the wickedness and depravity that billions believe that God is going to inflict on people.