=> Email to Ray => Topic started by: Craig on June 02, 2006, 09:53:28 AM

Title: Enoch
Post by: Craig on June 02, 2006, 09:53:28 AM
Hi Ray,
I thought I would add the following in reference to Enoch.
Genesis 5:21-24 (NIV) When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.
Hebrews 11:5 (NIV) By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
From these passages above, I cannot see any reason to think that Enoch was taken to another part of the world. Genesis states that Enoch was "no more".
If Enoch was relocated why would Genesis state that Enoch was "no more".This discretion doesn't support Enoch being relocated and would be wrong.
The writer of Hebrews indicated that the reason Enoch was taken was so he would not experience death. Simply moving Enoch from one part of the world to the other (such as what happened to Philip in Acts 8) would not achieve that.
My conclusion is that the Enoch was taken to a place beyond death to be in the presence of God.
       Regards, Tim

Dear Tim:
Well, I guess then, you have done it--you have found ONE verse of Scripture that literally contradicts HUNDREDS of other Scriptures such as the fact stated by no lesser Authority than our own Creator, Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. You say that Enoch was taken to be with God and never die. God resides in "heaven" and here is what Jesus had to say about anyone (including Enoch) ever being with God in heaven:
"And NO MAN [pay close attention to the phrase "no man," Tim, seeing that Enoch WAS A MAN] has ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the SON OF MAN which is in heaven" (John 3:13).
God be with you,
Title: Enoch
Post by: Craig on June 05, 2006, 03:37:40 PM
Hi Ray,
After coming across the difficulty of Enoch going to heaven and John 3:13 below does create  a problem as the bible doesn't contradict its self.
   John 3:13 states  (NIV) when Jesus says, "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man."
I have found out that there are two important principles when interpreting scripture. Firstly, you must interpret a passage in light of the entire Bible, not in isolation.
Secondly, you need to take into account the context of the passage and what it would have meant to the people who were receiving the message originaly.
This passage takes place in the context of a conversation between Jesus and a Pharisee names Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council (John 3:1). This guy was smart and well educated. He knew the Old Testament and would have been very familiar with the stories about Enoch and Elijah and their "short-cuts" (the problem) to heaven.
So what does the statement Jesus made in John 3:13 mean?
After doing some more digging on this contradiction text). It was put to me this way as best to explain it;

"And no man hath ascended into heavens - No man, therefore, is qualified to speak of heavenly things, John 3:12. To speak of those things requires intimate acquaintance with them - demands that we have seen them; and as no one has ascended into heaven and returned.
So no one is qualified to speak of them but He who came down from heaven. This does not mean that no one had Gone to heaven or had been saved, for Enoch and Elijah had been borne there (Gen 5:24; compare Heb 11:5; 2Ki 2:11); and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and others were there: but it means that no one had ascended and "returned," so as to be qualified to speak of the things there."
So the point being made by Jesus here is that He is the only man who has authority to talk about "heavenly things" because He is the only man who has been there before. Enoch and Elijah never returned to Earth from Heaven to teach people (although Elijah did appear with Jesus in Matthew 17).
Regards Tim

Dear Tim:
Isn't it just amazing how people are willing to believe and teach almost any foolish, unscriptural nonstense, so that they can support their pagan doctrines that are nowhere found in Scripture?  "Alleging themselves to be wise, they are made stupid" (Romans 1:22, Concordant Literal NT).
God be with you,