Verses help

[booker]

Verses people bring up when you tell them Jesus is savior of the world.I would appreciate it if you guys could explain what these verses really mean.

Revelation 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Revelation 22:14-15
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Luke 13:24
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

John 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

And finally another question i get asked is whether  Satan will get saved?

[Kat]

Hi Booker,

Welcome to the forum  

Revelation 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

What I gather about this verse is that this age is what it is, the unjust and filthy will continue and so will those that are righteous and holy. We will continue to see the good and the evil, righteousness and injustice until this age ends at the return of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 22:14-15
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

This is speaking of the time when Jesus Christ has returned, those that have been chosen and by the indwelling pf the Holy Spirit obeyed Him were in the first resurrection and have received the tree of 'life.' Now they are ruling with Christ, they are able to enter the "gates into the city" - New Jerusalem. But the rest of humanity have been resurrected to judgement and must be purged and cleansed, they are referred to as "dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Luke 13:24
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

The whole Christian world, the many, know of Jesus Christ and strive to gain salvation and to enter in "the strait gate... and shall not be able."

John 6:44  No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Only those that God has drawn to Him and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit abides in Christ, his name is written in the Book of Life. The rest of humanity will be raised and cast into the Lake of fire, where they will be purged and cleansed.

1Co 3:11  For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
v. 12  Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
v. 13  each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
v. 14  If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
v. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

You can see just how much "men love darkness" by exposing the false doctrines of the church and see if they turn from their ways. It takes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for us to turn from our evil ways, that is the only way any are "not condemned" with the rest of the world.

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Hope that helps.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[booker]

Have any of you  guys heard of conditional immortality.It is a concept of special salvation in which the gift of immortality is attached to (conditional upon) belief in Jesus Christ.Annihilationism is the belief that sinners are destroyed, rather than tormented forever in "hell" as in the lake of fire.

Any verses to refute these doctrines

[Samson]

Have any of you  guys heard of conditional immortality.It is a concept of special salvation in which the gift of immortality is attached to (conditional upon) belief in Jesus Christ.Annihilationism is the belief that sinners are destroyed, rather than tormented forever in "hell" as in the lake of fire.

Any verses to refute these doctrines

Hello Booker,

                   First of all, there are two greek words in the New Testament that are usually translated Destroy, Destruction, Ruin, Perish, Lost. I copied and pasted an excerpt from my Thread(Greek Words defined and usage), it defines Apollumi(Destroy, Lost, Losing, etc.) and Oleuthros(Destruction, Extermination, Perished, etc.). Remember, God Wills or Desires that NONE(GK-ou'te, ou-root) Perish, but all attain to repentance. If God desires or Wills that NONE Perish, there cannot be any in that category, due to the NONE mentioned. Also, 1Cor. 5:5(paraphrased: " Destruction(Oleuthros) of the flesh TO SAVE THE SPIRIT in the day of the lord." Apollumi and Oleuthros are related in meaning and usage, although not exactly the same. Read Copy and Paste below.

3) Kolasin: Chastisement, Root Word is Kolos and literally means "to prune" The Correction is with a view to helping the offender. Usually incorrectly rendered Punishment.Matt. 25:46 (Eonian Chastisement)4) Timoria: Punishment or Penalty; It means the vindictive character of punishment that only satisfies the inflictor of it. Acts. 4:21 ( Find no way of punishing them).PUNISHING VS. CHASTENINGWhile considering all of the hellfire and brimstone material disseminated by Christian teachers, preachers, writers, and educators around the world, just how many hundreds of times do you suppose the word "punishment" is used in the entire New Testament with regards to sinners? Hundreds? Would you believe less than fifty? Would you believe less than ten? Would you believe ONCE? That's right, the answer is one time.

"Of how much more punishment [Gk: timoria], suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb. 10:29).

I can assure you that those who have committed the above crime towards the Lord are few indeed. Most of humanity that will be judged in the lake of fire have NEVER EVEN HEARD of Jesus Christ, let alone, "trodden underfoot the Son of God, and counted the blood of the covenant, an UNHOLY thing, and done DESPITE unto the Spirit of grace." Most have never even heard of such sins, let alone committed them.

This is a most powerful Scripture to be sure, but it does not speak of "eternal" punishment, and it is the ONLY SCRIPTURE IN THE ENTIRETY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT that uses the word "punishment" with reference to punishing sinners!

There are three other places in the KJV that the word "punish" or "punished" is used correctly. They are Acts 4:21; 22:5; and 26:11 where it Saul (later Paul) is punishing not sinners, but members of the church, the followers of Christ.

II Thes. 1:9 should be translated, "eonian extermination" and not "punished ... everlasting."

II Peter 2:4 & 9 should both be "chastening" as it is the same Greek word kolazo and not timoria which means punish.

The KJV uses "punished" in verse nine, which should be "chasten," and ironically it doesn't even translate the Greek word kolazo (chasten) in verse four -- the KJV translators left it out completely. I suppose the translators thought that it was redundant to say, "chastening judging." But then again, they didn't bother to look at II Cor. 2:6 which should read "rebuke" (another Greek word, epitimia), not "punish."

And lastly, I Pet. 2:14 should read "vengeance" ( still another Greek word, kdikesise), and not punishment.

So in the case of "punishment" we have but ONE Scripture to deal with, and we will deal with it.

This next fact doesn't necessarily "prove" anything, it's just the way my mind works. Jesus Christ said:

"O generation of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the ABUNDANCE of the heart the MOUTH SPEAKS" (Mat. 12:34).

I think we all understand that statement: What is heaviest and most dominant on our heart is what we talk about the most.

Now then, my observation. We learned of the one time that punishment is used in reference to sinners. Would you all be interested in knowing how many times the opposite of punishment is used? Okay, the word "mercy" (-ies, -iful) is found in the Bible over THREE HUNDRED AND THIRTY times! Could it be that the "abundance of God's heart" consists of many more MERCIES than it does of vengeance and punishment?

5) Apollumi: Lose, Lost, Destroy, Ruin.
    Matt. 10:28 ( Fear Him who is able to DESTROY)
    Matt. 18:11 ( Came to Save that which was LOST)Not even one, zero, not some, not any, not at all any ) should perish (Gk. apollumi - perish, destroy, lose) but that all (Gk. Pas - all, as many as.  We can take that out, forget the word all, you don't need it.  Put 'that they,' who? Anybody who doesn't come under the category of none) should come to repentance."

Are you following this?  This is all based on the negative.  How many that don't come under the category of none, not any, not any man, not any woman, not any thing, none whatsoever, nothing.  Now if you are not in that category, you are going to come to repentance and not have a destiny of perishing or perished - apollumi.  How many is that?  Everyone does not come under the mē, the none, so it includes everyone.  Therefore the "all" in that verse is everyone who is not included in the "any," and that's EVERYONE!

Now we understand that all humanity is in a state of 'apollumi,' sometimes.  Because apollumi meaning destroy, perish or lose.  All mankind are lost, so it's not talking about in this lifetime that no one will ever be destroyed or die or be perished or not be spiritually lost, as their destiny, because this life time they do.  But ultimately our destiny for everyone, is to be unperished or lost.  None, because the negative here proves it.  If there is even one that comes under that category, it can't come under that category, because that category doesn't include anyone, it's a negative, no one.  He's not willing that anyone, no one be perishing or lost forever.  There again the apollumi, Christ said I've come to save those that are apollumi.  When the scripture say, "the Lord is not slack,"  is there any room for slackness?  No.  A little slackness?  No.  No slackness at all.  When He says, "...is not willing that any should perish,"  it proves the positive side.  The negative proves the positive.

6) Oleuthros: Destruction, Ruin; the affect upon the physical condition of a person for the purpose of their Spiritual benefit. 1Cor. 5:5 ( DESTRUCTION of the flesh so the spirit may be saved)
1Thess. 5:3 ( Suddenly upon them cometh DESTRUCTION.)

   Booker, I added a short copy and paste paragraph below from Ray discussing Fire(GK-Pur) to help you understand what is going to be destroyed, Carnality(fleshly thinking, wicked desires). Read Below !


In statement (1) the editor of Strong's cites seven more Scriptures that are used symbolically and figuratively to demonstrate "the holiness of God, which CONSUMES ALL that is inconsistent therewith." It doesn't consume their physical bodies, nor does it burn their physical bodies to produce pain, but it "CONSUMES" all that is not consistent with God's holiness. And these are the things of the heart, mind and spirit! It is not the "body" that needs chastisement and purification, it is the MIND, HEART, AND SPIRIT that needs purification from unholiness. You cannot burn pride and vanity out of one's heart with REAL FIRE (besides the advocates of torturing with real fire for all eternity admit that it accomplishes NOTHING). It takes the fire of God's spirit to burn away evils that have their origin in the realm of spirit.

This teaching is so absolutely elementary that it seems strange to even have to explain it. And yet, many of the greatest minds in theology today have not a clue as to these simple spiritual truths. All over the world Christian leaders continue to teach that the way God will deal with people who have wicked and carnal hearts, minds, and spirits, is to BURN THEIR FLESH IN REAL FIRE FOR ALL ETERNITY! And what, pray tell, does this infinite mountain of eternal pain accomplish? Why it is "justice" cry the high priests of Christendom!

                                Hope it helps, you must do more reading of Ray's, just like the rest of us.

                                                      Samson.

[Samson]

Have any of you  guys heard of conditional immortality.It is a concept of special salvation in which the gift of immortality is attached to (conditional upon) belief in Jesus Christ.Annihilationism is the belief that sinners are destroyed, rather than tormented forever in "hell" as in the lake of fire.

Any verses to refute these doctrines

Hi Again Booker,

                      Below, another excerpt of Ray's from, Is Everlasting Scriptural ! in reference to Olehtros(Destruction).

Comment: What? Not even an argument for "eternal" in this verse? Are we simply to take your word for it? The word is "aionion" and it means "eonian" not eternal. Actually a proper translation of this phrase is, "the justice of eonian extermination." Now lest anyone think that some "exterminated" is beyond the redemption of the cross, consider that this very same Greek word "olehtros" is found in I Cor. 5:5 where we read this:

        "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction [extermination] of the flesh, that the spirit MAY BE SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus."

Yes, to the utter chagrin of many a holier-than-thou Christian theologian, there will be MANY SAVED in the Day of the Lord Jesus!

Another excerpt of Ray's below in blue from The Lake of Fire, Installment 16, Origin of Endless Punishment. I included this excerpt too, because Annihilation(Endless Death, Non-Existence has it's origin in Egyptian Paganism, just like the other forms of "Eternal Punishment." Armstrongism, Jehovah Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventist share this concept of Punishment for the Wicked and Unsaved. I used to be a JW, so I fully know about Annihilation, used to be terrified of eventually receiving it, not no more.

HISTORICAL PROOF THE WORST CHURCH DOCTRINES ARE EGYPTIAN

This next section is from Thayher's Doctrine of Endless Punishment, quoting many historians regarding the deceitful use of pagan doctrines of punishment.

    "Greeks and Romans, Lawgivers and Philosophers, acknowledge their indebtedness to her in this respect, and freely credit her with the original invention of the fables and terrors of the invisible world; though it must be allowed that they have improved somewhat upon the hints given, and shown a wonderful inventive faculty of their own.

    These records of the ancient Greeks, confirmed by the monuments as illustrated by modern scholars, open to us the origin of the doctrines of a judgment after death, and of future endless rewards and punishments, for the good or evil deeds of this life. From the Egyptians it passed, with suitable modifications, to the Greeks and Romans. Diodorus himself clearly shows that the fables of the Acherusian lake, of Hecate, Cerberus, Charon, and the Styx, have their original in these Egyptian ceremonies and doctrines.

    And Professor Stuart, in a note to Greppo's Essay on Hieroglyphics, accepts the statement of Spineto, that the Amenti of the Egyptians originated the classic fables of Hades and Tartarus, Charon, Pluto, the judges of hell, the dog Cerberus, the Chimeras, Harpies, Gorgons, Furies, "and other such unnatural and horrible things with which the Greeks and Romans peopled their fantastic hell."

It is curious to note the exactness of the copy in many particulars.

    *

      The Egyptian Acherusia gives us the Greek Acheron, and perhaps Styx.
    *

      The Egyptian Tartar, significant of the lamentations of relatives over the dead refused burial on account of their wicked lives, furnishes the Greek Tartarus, where the wicked are punished.
    *

      The funeral boat across the lake, the ferryman, and the gold piece in the mouth of the dead, give rise to Charon, his boat, and fee, and the passage across the Styx into Hades.
    *

      The cemetery beyond the lake, surrounded by trees, called by the Egyptians Elisout or Elisaeus, is the original of the Greek Elysian Fields, the abode of the blessed.
    *

      The three infernal judges, Minos, Aeacus, Rhadamanthus, are borrowed from the Egyptian judges of the dead; and the heads of animals symbolizing these judges, mistaken by the Greeks, are changed into monster Gorgons, Harpies, Furies, &c.

But, as I have remarked, though the Greeks borrowed, they altered and improved. And, true to that individualism which was so marked a characteristic of that people, they are not satisfied with the Egyptian method of generalizing respecting the punishments of the wicked, but begin specifying particular sinners, and particular kinds of punishment adapted to particular offenses. Hence the fables of Ixion, Tantalus, Tityrus, &c., whose torments in the infernal regions are mentioned in the beginning of this chapter. Everything must be sharp, pointed, and dramatic, to suit the lively genius of the Greek; and the terrors of the invisible world must be presented in a way to strike the imagination in the most powerful manner, and produce some direct result on the individual and on society.

The whole thing is designed for effect, to influence the multitude, to restrain their passions, and to aid the magistrate and ruler in keeping them subject to authority. It is the invention of priests and lawmakers, who take this as the easiest method of governing the people. They claim the "right divine" to govern; claim that their laws originate with the gods, as we have shown above; and that, therefore, the gods will visit on all offenders the terrors and tortures of the damned. Hence, through the joint cunning of priest and legislator, of church and state, mutually supporting each the other, we have all the stupendous frauds and falsehoods respecting the invisible world."

HISTORIANS ACKNOWLEDGE THE INVENTION OF PAGANISM

Polybius, the historian, says:

    "Since the multitude is ever fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the invisible world; on which account our ancestors seem to me to have acted judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these notions of the gods, and of the infernal regions." B. vi 56.

Dionysius Halicarnassus treats the whole matter as useful, but not as true. Antiq. Rom., B. ii Livy, the celebrated historian, speaks of it in the same spirit; and he praises the wisdom of Numa, because he invented the fear of the gods, as

    "a most efficacious means of governing an ignorant and barbarous populace." Hist., I 19.

Strabo, the geographer, says:

    "The multitude are restrained from vice by the punishments the gods are said to inflict upon offenders, and by those terrors and threatenings which certain dreadful words and monstrous forms imprint upon their minds...For it is impossible to govern the crowd of women, and all the common rabble, by philosophical reasoning, and lead them to piety, holiness and virtue - but this must be done by superstition, or the fear of the gods, by means of fables and wonders; for the thunder, the aegis, the trident, the torches (of the Furies), the dragons, &c., are all fables, as is also all the ancient theology. These things the legislators used as scarecrows to terrify the childish multitude." Geog., B. I

Timaeus Locrus, the Pythagorean, after stating that the doctrine of rewards and punishments after death is necessary to society, proceeds as follows:

    "For as we sometimes cure the body with unwholesome remedies, when such as are most wholesome produce no effect, so we restrain those minds with false relations, which will not be persuaded by the truth. There is a necessity, therefore, of instilling the dread of those foreign torments: 10as that the soul changes its habitation; that the coward is ignominiously thrust into the body of a woman; the murderer imprisoned within the form of a savage beast; the vain and inconstant changed into birds, and the slothful and ignorant into fishes."

Plato, in his commentary on Timaeus, fully endorses what he says respecting the fabulous invention of these foreign torments.

And Strabo says that

    "Plato and the Brahmins of India invented fables concerning the future judgments of hell" (Hades).

And Chrysippus blames Plato for attempting to deter men from wrong by frightful stories of future punishments.

Plato himself is exceedingly inconsistent, sometimes adopting, even in his serious discourses, the fables of the poets, and at other times rejecting them as utterly false, and giving too frightful views of the invisible world. Sometimes, he argues, on social grounds, that they are necessary to restrain bad men from wickedness and crime, and then again he protests against them on political grounds, as intimidating the citizens, and making cowards of the soldiers, who, believing these things, are afraid of death, and do not therefore fight well. But all this shows in what light he regarded them; not as truths, certainly, but as fictions, convenient in some cases, but difficult to manage in others.

Plutarch treats the subject in the same way; sometimes arguing for them with great solemnity and earnestness, and on other occasions calling them "fabulous stories, the tales of mothers and nurses."

Seneca says:

    "Those things which make the infernal regions terrible, the darkness, the prison, the river of flaming fire, the judgment seat, &c., are all a fable, with which the poets amuse themselves, and by them agitate us with vain terrors." Sextus Empiricus calls them "poetic fables of hell;" and Cicero speaks of them as "silly absurdities and fables" (ineptiis ac fabulis).

Aristotle.

    "It has been handed down in mythical form from earliest times to posterity, that there are gods, and that the divine (Deity) compasses all nature. All beside this has been added, after the mythical style, for the purpose of persuading the multitude, and for the interests of the laws, and the advantage of the state." Neander's Church Hist., I, p. 7. 11

Another quote from Thomas Thayer's paper on The Doctrine of Everlasting Punishment:

    "Anyone at all familiar with the writings of the ancient Greeks or Romans, [who admittedly received their basis doctrine of hell from Egypt] cannot fail to note how often it is admitted by them that the national religions were the INVENTIONS OF THE LEGISLATOR AND THE PRIES, for the purpose of governing and restraining the common people [commonly called 'dumb sheep']."

Hence Augustine [considered by many to be the greatest theologian in history] says, in his 'City of God,'

    "This seems to have been done on no other account, but as it was the business of princes, out of their wisdom and civil prudence, to DECEIVE THE PEOPLE IN THEIR RELIGION; princes, under the name of religion, persuaded the people to believe those things true, which they themselves KNEW TO BE IDLE FABLES; by this means, for their own ease in government, tying them the more closely to civil society." (All CAPS emphasis is mine).

My, how well this religious deception of the masses continues to be in the 21st century.

Ray's excerpt above in Red, Kind Regards, Samson.