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[mrsnacks]

I heard the teaching of Ray from Nashville and my wife had a hard time with Ray saying that Jesus suffered desease and was sickly in His life. Ray referred to Isaiah 53 . But as we read the passage She thought that He had to be a very strong individual to have survived the cross etc and not weakly. Some input ? Thanks

[Evan600]

I heard the teaching of Ray from Nashville and my wife had a hard time with Ray saying that Jesus suffered desease and was sickly in His life. Ray referred to Isaiah 53 . But as we read the passage She thought that He had to be a very strong individual to have survived the cross etc and not weakly. Some input ? Thanks

She makes a good point...however, it seems that the Scripture is clear.  It doesn't describe specific details about how Jesus was sick, but it does say that He bore our infirmities.  There is a Scripture that I do think of to show us something else though. 

Joh 19:32  Then came the soldiers, and broke the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
Joh 19:33  But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they broke not his legs:

This shows us that the soliders saw that He was dead already, perhaps this death being somewhat of a shock because it so 'soon.'

Also where Jesus metioned that the Pharisees would surely say to Him; "Physician, heal yourself."

With love,

Jason

[mrsnacks]

I think the point my wife was making is that she and I had been taught all along that everything was at the cross. I did a Google search and nothing came up. She believes that He bore it all on the cross. So I guess He got sickly and deseased at the cross.

My response is that Jesus can relate to us because He went through all that we go through. He understands rejection when we go to Him in prayer because He was rejected. I come to Him when I am suffering from sickness and illness because He knows - He has gone through it.  And the same goes for the person who has cancer or a desease because He bore them I believe before He got to the cross. That is why the Pharisees said to Him " Physician heal thyself. "

I do correct myself. He didn't go through all that we go through. He never married and didn't have kids etc. But as far as the suffering - He is called the Suffering Servant or Messiah in the OT.

[YellowStone]

Ray is certainly entitled to speak according to the insights given him; (no one will argue the significance of Isaiah 52:13 to 53:12 I am sure) however, for the rest of us, we should not concern ourselves, whether or not Christ, was sickly, weak or crippled; either, when it began and for how long, because if it really mattered and altered the truth, the Scriptures would have made the fact known. I feel sure Paul would have written about had it been significant.

Jason, in response to your response

I believe that Christs seemingly quick death was due to fullment of Scripture, more so than being sickly

Jhn 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

Jhn 19:29  Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to his mouth.

    Psa 69:21  They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

Jhn 19:30  When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost (spirit).

Luk 23:46  And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Notice how he cried out in a LOUD voice, he did not wimper. Notice also how Jesus "gave" up his spirit, he chose too, no one took it or were capable of taking it. This fact was not lost on many.

Luk 23:47 Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.

I hope this does not offend anyone, but speculation on Christs physical condition does naught in changing the truth. It neither adds or takes away from the promise HE gave us.  

Love in Christ our Saviour,
Darren

[Evan600]

I think the point my wife was making is that she and I had been taught all along that everything was at the cross. I did a Google search and nothing came up. She believes that He bore it all on the cross. So I guess He got sickly and deseased at the cross.

My response is that Jesus can relate to us because He went through all that we go through. He understands rejection when we go to Him in prayer because He was rejected. I come to Him when I am suffering from sickness and illness because He knows - He has gone through it.  And the same goes for the person who has cancer or a desease because He bore them I believe before He got to the cross. That is why the Pharisees said to Him " Physician heal thyself. "

I do correct myself. He didn't go through all that we go through. He never married and didn't have kids etc. But as far as the suffering - He is called the Suffering Servant or Messiah in the OT.

Ahh, I see, and I can relate.  I remember the exact church service that I was at where I was taught that exact same thing.  The guy said that in the Garden of Gethsemane was actually where the disease, and all that started to take place.  Of course, I don't think that there is any Scriptural support for such a claim.  Also, I don't think that there is any support for it just being while He was hanging on the cross.

There are definetly some questions being raised within me after the conference.  I was just sitting down with my "Apostolic Bible," Esword, and NASB while reading through the notes.  I am just fascinated to know more about Christ!

I guess things like this are what is going to stir us up to seek Him more.  After all, it is Him that works in us!

[Evan600]

Darren,

I'm not offended at all.  I appreciate your insight actually! 

2Co 5:16  Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

God bless!

[psalmsinger]

I am so thankful for the desire to study this more:)  I was looking up the verse where Jesus healed a woman who touched Him and noticed the word "virtue".  It is "dunamis" or miraculous power.  Jesus could feel the pain and suffering but He could also "know" the healing power.  I was thinking that God purposed Jesus to be born physically strong enough in the flesh or He wouldn't have commanded the Israelites (especially those in Mary's geneology) to obey the health laws.  As in my other post, I believe "beauty" and "ugly" to be spiritual.  I see Him as beautiful and glorious.  And no matter what he bore in the flesh, He was spiritually strong and healthy.

Mark 5:30
30   And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?(KJV)
1411  dunamis (doo'-nam-is);from 1410; force (literally or figuratively); specially, miraculous power (usually by implication, a miracle itself):
KJV-- ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.

The scribes and pharisees wouldn't even lift one of their ten fingers to help bear another's burdens and even laid more spiritual burdens and guilt trips on the people.

Luke 11:46
46   And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.(KJV)

Spiritually speaking, Jesus considers sinners "sick" and in need of cleaning up from the inside out. It would be nice to have a perfectly healthy pice of flesh but it whithers away after a short time and is not important at all. After upbraiding them on many occasions "Woe unto you hypocrites," etc., I'm thinking the unbelievers figured Jesus needed a spiritual healing, repentance, and salvation.  That's certainly the way those that believe the scriptures are treated by the rest of the system.  Crazy, that's how I'm thought of

Luke 5:31-32
31   And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.
32   I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.(KJV)

The Great Physician spiritually came to clean the outside of the cup and platter and to heal what comes out of the mouth.  The pharisees are offended even this day......

Matt 23:26
26   Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.(KJV)

Matt 15:11-12
11   Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.12   Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
(KJV)


So the Great Physician came to clean the cup from the inside out and heal what comes out of the mouth not what goes in.  I think He came to heal spiritually. We surely need a lot of patience waiting for the finished product don't we?  Never fear, the Lord God has plenty of time and patience.  Don't you just love it?

Barbara

[Redbird]

Barbara,

That is BEAUTIFUL. Amen and Amen.

Lisa

[hillsbororiver]

*Since this topic has apparently split into two threads I will put this reply in both.

I agree that the most important result of topics such as this is that we open our bibles and study the Word for enlightenment.

I tend to disagree that it is an unimportant and insignificant issue in regard to the (physical) sufferings of our Lord and the obstacles in His own path. If He were a perfect (our carnal version) specimen and only truly suffered in Gethsemane and on Calvary then it could be said that He really did not have a true human experience. I believe that what He went through will prove to be the most difficult journey ever experienced by any man, compounded by the knowledge of His former glorious state of existence.

No one will be able to face Jesus in judgment and make the claim "You really did not know suffering, sure you had one tough day but my whole life was full of trials and misery, you knew that once you got past that day you would be back to glory, I went through my whole life in pain, being mocked by others and never enjoying any popularity with men or women. You think you suffered? Yeah right!"

He covered those bases by His humble sufferings.   

Peter was crucified upside down, Paul suffered through all sorts of health issues and natural disasters, are we to assume their human experience was more difficult than our Lord's? Will there be anyone at all who can make that claim?

2Co 1:5  For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.

Col 1:24  Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

1Pe 1:11  Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

 1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

1Pe 5:1  The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

Is this really speaking of only one day?

As far as the rejection of Christ by the religeous leaders of His time, I cannot see this being primarily a spiritual rejection as these leaders were totally carnal, looking for a messiah that would lead them to victory over the Romans not to victory over their flesh, they sought a worldly kingdom, not the spiritual Kingdom of God, they were looking for David, a physical warrior and an insatiable womanizer who appealed to the masculinity of men as a leader in war and who was desired by women because of his stature and worldly power.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

 

[okjohnson]

Disease and physical afflictions add to a person's physical appearance. It can cause them to appear gaunt and sickly, limp, etc. This together with the scripture refrence that Ray gave that he was not attractive paints a picture of Jesus that is quite different from what the world has realized through art and hollywood. Many people picture Jesus as a precious baby in a manger, and a physically attractive man.  Ray used this truth to show that the multitudes who followed Jesus did not follow him around because he was a hansome oracle as the world portrays. I think this is a truth that needs to be understood and that Ray did a good job showing it.

As far as Jesus bearing our sins , we know he did that and the exact manner is not important. We know he suffered for this. What is important and what Ray taught, is that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son for us, and had to watch the process. God must indeed love us very much if he gave his son to this suffering. I think this was Ray's point.

    Orlando

[hillsbororiver]

Good points Orlando,

Another thing is that the Father's charactor is displayed through His Son, this was a revelation to me as well, not that I hadn't heard it before but the depth of the Father's love is shown through the suffering of His Son.

Ray used the illustration of a parent watching their child suffer and how they would trade places in a heartbeat to ease the pain and how a loving parent will actually feel even more miserable than the child just by witnessing this misery.

That is how the Father felt about Jesus, and how He feels about all His children.

His Peace to you,

Joe 

[LittleBear]

Barbara,

THANK YOU for your beautiful post. I am totally blown away by this whole teaching of Jesus not having physical beauty. It shows us more about the real Him, and not the carnal version. I want to know every detail about Him! I had the Hollywood version stuck in my head even if I wasn't conscious of it.

Joe,

It's true that this detail is so important. It's important to know Him the way He is NOW and the way He was THEN. It's important because it's truth! It's important because it is comforting to know that He can relate to me in my sufferings because He did it!

Hi Orlando,

I know what you mean. I now have a different picture of Jesus and of what He suffered. For Him to do this, for us, and willingly, really portrays His true love for us and for the world.

Love,
Ursula

[Deborah-Leigh]

To add :

What I also found wonderful is that God the Father could not die. So He made a Son who could. Then He said to His Son, go create a Universe for starters! That is Gods Son who came and died for us! He volunteered! He did not HAVE TO! And God suffered for us in this way to show He loves us! Is that not humbling and worthy of reverential love and appreciation and and and and.....words fail!.....

Peace to you

Arcturus

[josh]

Mrsnacks,

Here are some scriptures that may add to this discussion:

Hebrews 2:18 (Young's Literal Translation)
"for in that he suffered, himself being tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted."

Hebrews 4:14-19 (Young's Literal Translation)
Having, then, a great chief priest passed through the heavens -- Jesus the Son of God -- may we hold fast the profession, for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathize with our infirmities, but [one] tempted in all things in like manner -- apart from sin; we may come near, then, with freedom, to the throne of the grace, that we may receive kindness, and find grace -- for seasonable help.

Hebrews 5:7-9 (Young's Literal Translation)
"who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during,"

To tell you the truth... I've never really thought about that Christ might have caught a cold or came down with a fever. I guess, I'm always so stuck on the end portion of His life, that often times I've failed to consider that he lived here, LIKE US, on this earth... there was a journey and a process that He also had to endure before He could arrive at that cross.

Like us, I believe that He learned from "the THINGS (plural) which He suffered."

How else could we identify with this man, if His suffering was only limited to one single event... I imagine He suffered all of the same things we do, after all He was "acquainted with sorrow"... perhaps, when the scriptures say that He lowered Himself to become like His creation that this also meant, not only that He could die on the cross, but that His flesh was dying the entirety of His time here on earth, just like us.

Philippians 2:6-9 (Young's Literal Translation)
who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not robbery to be equal to God,but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross,wherefore, also, God did highly exalt him, and gave to him a name that [is] above every name,

Just a few thoughts.

God's Peace
Josh

[YellowStone]

Hi everyone

Wow!!    Has this topic been a tough learning experience for me 

It is very difficult seeing the "whole" picture when looking only from a single plane pf reference. 

Oh sure, I caught the spiritual significance of all that Ray said, but simply dismissed the physical aspects. 

Joe, I NOW see what you were saying: How typically Hollywood, is the believing that Jesus was perfect but could "feel" and "knew" my pain? Yet, Hollywood is just a carnal whitewashed persona, it is nothing more than a perception of reality. Knock me down, is this not how I treated the "man" Jesus Christ? 

The answer can only be a sad.....yes 

Josh, the Scriptures below helped......

Hebrews 2:18 (Young's Literal Translation)
"for in that he suffered, himself being tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted."

Hebrews 4:14-19 (Young's Literal Translation)
Having, then, a great chief priest passed through the heavens -- Jesus the Son of God -- may we hold fast the profession, for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathize with our infirmities, but [one] tempted in all things in like manner -- apart from sin; we may come near, then, with freedom, to the throne of the grace, that we may receive kindness, and find grace -- for seasonable help.

Hebrews 5:7-9 (Young's Literal Translation)
"who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during,"

Barbara,

You posted the following and this helped too.

Spiritually speaking, Jesus considers sinners "sick" and in need of cleaning up from the inside out. It would be nice to have a perfectly healthy piece of flesh but it whithers away after a short time and is not important at all. After upbraiding them on many occasions "Woe unto you hypocrites," etc., I'm thinking the unbelievers figured Jesus needed a spiritual healing, repentance, and salvation.  That's certainly the way those that believe the scriptures are treated by the rest of the system.  

That's where I got stuck "It would be nice...." but who cares, right?          Big mistake! 

Joe,

Now I see the significance of your words 

I tend to disagree that it is an unimportant and insignificant issue in regard to the (physical) sufferings of our Lord and the obstacles in His own path. If He were a perfect (our carnal version) specimen and only truly suffered in Gethsemane and on Calvary then it could be said that He really did not have a true human experience. I believe that what He went through will prove to be the most difficult journey ever experienced by any man, compounded by the knowledge of His former glorious state of existence.

All this helped but the clincher came to me when Christ said the following: 

Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard [that], he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.  

Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. 

Luk 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.  

Certainly Christ is refering to Spiritual Healing, yet I now believe that He was using this as a clear metaphor regarding his own physical condtion. He used his illnesses / ailments so that he could speak on the same level as those of his day. It was because, he was at this level that he could speak past the "physical" so that His spiritual message would not get lost. How much easier it is, even today, to love and understand someone "we" can relate too, knowing that they are indeed, feeling what we feel.

Oh, and I just want to add that "by not" being in perfect physical health, it must have been so much easier showing the importance of his message, because He gave credence to it rather than his physical health.

Kind of got caught on a saying I use often:  "I couldn't see the forest for the trees"

Thanks be to God for allowing me to see (in His time) not mine and to all my brothers and sisters who had patience with me.

Much Love in Christ to All,

Darren

[gmik]

What a precious thread. I understand it a little more now than I did.  Thank you posters!  God used you all.  I am blessed!