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[mharrell08]

I was going through some verse in the Bible about God's love. (Because, any way you look at it, that's where I'm stuck, believing that God doesn't love everybody.) I came across this verse, Ephesians 5:25:

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Now that's a verse I've heard used to say that God doesn't love everybody, only the church. But that's not what it says, it doesn't say Christ gave Himself up for the church "ONLY", 1 John 2:2 says this:

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

So Christ died FOR the "whole world". Believe it or not, I've even had it told to me that "whole world" doesn't necessarily mean the whole world. How much more twisting can you do to a verse? John is indeed speaking to other Christians, that's why he says "not only ours". Am I going the right way with this?

Thank you all, I'm going to pull myself out of this hole.

Absolutely, you are going the right way, with that line of thinking and understanding.

And it is God working in you, both to will and to do, to pull yourself out of this hole.


Take care Lupac,

Marques

[Ninny]

Praying for you all the way, little brother!!
Kathy

[Lupac]

Okay, I'm confused now. I'm reading the LoF series again. Here's what it said:

   "Now at their eating, Jesus, taking the bread, and, blessing, breaks it, and, giving to the disciples, said, ‘Take eat [this bread], This [bread] IS my body" (Matt. 26:26).

The greatest minds in theology have haggled for hundreds of years over this metaphor that Christ used at the last supper. Does the bread literally turn into the body flesh of Christ when we eat that bread as the Catholic faith demands? What a silly question. IT’S A METAPHOR! And the idea that one of the two parts of a metaphor must be literal is likewise silly.

In this metaphor, the bread is a symbol. Is there anyone who cannot recognize that Christ used bread from the table as a "symbol" of something? Then when used as a symbol, neither can it be any longer literal. Is there anyone who cannot recognize that Christ used His own body as a "symbol" of something? Then when used as a symbol it neither can be any longer literal. That being said then, the bread is symbolic AND Christ’s body is also symbolic! Jesus used literal "bread" from the table and used the literal words "my body." When Jesus picked up the bread and broke it, no one thought that He was talking about CHEESE! When Jesus said, "my body," no one thought He was speaking of His clothing or His shoes. Everyone at that table knew what "bread" was and what Christ’s "body" was. However ... HOWEVER, Christ used the words "bread" and "my body" in a METAPHOR! He said, "Take eat, this [bread] IS My body." That my friends is a METAPHOR! And as a metaphor, neither the bread nor Christ’s body is to be taken literally! "I am the BREAD OF LIFE..." (John 6:35).

We do NOT eat physical bread to partake of the symbolic or spiritual life-giving food of Christ’s body. Nor would we be partaking of spiritual or symbolic bread by eating Christ’s literal flesh and blood body. Can we not see that neither part of a metaphor must always be literal. The bread is used as a symbol because literal bread is called the staff of life. Christ’s body is used in this metaphor because our spiritual nourishment comes from no other source but Jesus Christ. They say that we are what we eat. When we partake of the real staff of life--the spiritual food of Christ’s body, we ourselves BECOME the very body of Christ ourselves!

I was raised and taught that the Lord's Supper is very important. We had it every Sunday. I guess what I'm saying is, all this time, I thought the literal bread symbolized Christ's literal (or spiritual) body. Maybe someone here could explain it better to me. I know what I've been taught isn't true, but I'm not sure what exactly Ray is saying here ether. Using the logic above, it would seem the "literal" LoF symbolizes the "literal" (or "spiritual") second death. Thanks.

EDIT:
One other thing, before I have to go to work. This part:

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is JESUS CHRIST. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE; Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE; and the FIRE shall TRY EVERY MAN’S WORK of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be BURNED, he shall SUFFER LOSS; but [pay close attention to this BIG BUT] BUT HE HIMSELF [the one who had his works burned and consumed in God’s consuming fire] SHALL BE SAVED [What will save him?], yet so AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:11-15)!!!

It seems, to me, to say there is no other foundation anyone can build on other than Jesus, which is true. But it seems that the wood, hay, and stubble are all built on Jesus by men. Wouldn't that imply that the people who lay the wood, hay, and stubble are try of themselves to lay their works on Jesus? What about people who aren't christians, who never knew of the foundation to began with? Or who tried to build their OWN foundation, or a foundation on Alla or Buddha? I'm just trying to get everything straight in my head.

[Dave in Tenn]

Ray is talking about Christ's statement.  "‘Take, eat [this bread], This [bread] IS my body..."

In this statement, 'the bread' is symbolic--metaphor.  Symbolic of what?  Christ's body.  

How would one 'literalize' this?  By saying, "You don't have to eat the symbolic bread.  Eat the literal body."?

Of course not.

Both 'the bread' and 'my Body' are symbolic.  The bread 'represents' His body, and/but (in the statement) He isn't telling the disciples to eat his literal body.  

As if that isn't enough, the commandment to 'take EAT', therefor, is also symbolic!  He isn't talking about literally 'eating' anything either, ultimately.

The entire statement is symbol of symbol and metaphor of metaphor.  Even if you grasp that much, it's also 'obeyed' Spiritually, not physically.

I hope that helps.

  

[Kat]

Hi Lupac,

The 'Lord's supper' is merely a physical ritual that pictures a higher spiritual truth.  Like Dave said it is a metaphor.  Here are a few places where this is explained further.

http://bible-truths.com/lake5.html ----------

Now then, is there a simple way that we can at least represent all metaphors in an intelligent, understandable statement? I think so. I have come up with a statement that seems to represent ALL metaphors correctly and honestly. Here is how it works: Take ANY metaphor and apply this principle to it:

A. "The WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT." Or condensed: [My] Words ARE Spirit.

Next, add the words "like" and "in certain ways," and state the metaphor like this:

B. "The WORDS that I speak unto you, they are [like] SPIRIT [in certain ways].

There it is. Simple. Christ’s words are not literally spirit, but like spirit, but not in all ways, only in certain ways. And so far I have found this principle to work in all metaphors. Christ’s words are not like spirit in that they can be audibly heard by physical ears. They are not like spirit in that we have them on physical paper imprinted with physical ink, etc. But they are like spirit in that they have INVISIBLE POWER. Jesus Himself gives us an explanation of this very sort of thing,

"The wind blows where it will, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, and where it goes, SO IS every one that is born of the Spirit" (John 3:.

Jesus could have used a metaphor here and said something like this: "Those born of the Spirit are wind." But He didn’t. He explained in what "certain ways" they are "like" the wind. And that, you see, is what a metaphor really is. Now let’s try this principle to other metaphors and see if it does not simplify them:

A. "Take, eat: this [bread] is my body" Or condensed: "Bread is Body"

B. "Take eat: this [bread] is [like] my body [in certain ways]"

As physical bread gives nourishment to the physical body, the Bread from heaven is spiritual nourishment to our spiritual life as if we were eating Christ’s spiritual body.

http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html -------------------------

Just as we physically feed on physical bread for PHYSICAL LIFE, thus also we spiritually feed on Jesus Christ’s spiritual body for SPIRITUAL LIFE.
-----------------------------------------------------------

But it seems that the wood, hay, and stubble are all built on Jesus by men. Wouldn't that imply that the people who lay the wood, hay, and stubble are try of themselves to lay their works on Jesus?

As the "gold, silver, precious stones" represent righteous works, these are those things that have already been perfected by fire. Now the "wood, hay, straw" are those works that have not been perfected, it is the works of the flesh, like the grass that does not last.

1Pe 1:24  for "All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls,

So all people must have their works tested in fire, that is happening now for those chosen, it will be later in the LOF for the rest. Anybody's deeds that are not just, according to Christ's commandment to "love one another" (John 13:34) will get burned away in the LOF and "he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved," (verse 15).  All (no exceptions, Hindus, Muslims and atheists) will be saved through Jesus Christ, He is the only way, the one truth that leads to life.

John 14:6  Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

When everyone is raised and Jesus Christ rules on this earth, everyone will see Him (Rev. 1:7) and everyone will come to know Him.  He will be the foundation of all and He will teach them His righteous ways and they will learn righteousness.

Isa 26:9 ..For when Your judgments are in the earth,
       The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Lupac]

Thank you, Kat and Dave. It's hard to let go of physical rituals, for me. I used to think they were necessary. I'll keep studying. Kat, explaining the Corinthians verse really hit home. Thanks.

Hi Lupac,

I may be wrong (not the first time in my life).  If I am wrong, then I apologize in advance.  But.  But!!  Are you kidding me?  Are you just pulling our chain here to get a reaction?  Do you really not get it?

I'm just a 56 year old man, over the hill, and hoping not to be buried under it (I least just not yet).  When I left the Worldwide Church of God about fifteen years ago, I had had my fill of religion.  I told God that never again would I listen to any human talk or teach about God.  I told Him that if He wanted me to be religious, then He would have to make Jesus appear directly to me and teach me the truths of God.  I was in a spiritual wilderness for the last fifteen years, a stranger and sojourner on the earth.

Then, last October, I ran across this website.  Wow!  Double Wow!!  Reading and listening to Ray was like putting my finger into a light socket.  The Spirit of God runs strong in Ray.  And this Spirit leaps across the words into ones soul.

This website is not Sunday school kindergarten class, but is like spiritual Marine Corps boot camp.  Don't you feel it deep within you?  Are you kidding me?

Lupac, if you are sincere, then I do apologize deeply.  Stick with it, and God will show you all his ways in due time.  But, if you're just kidding around, be careful.

John  

Why would I be joking about something as serious as this? I'm trying to break down a mental barrier I have about God. Growing up, I felt nothing of God, except fear and self- unworthiness. At this moment, I feel nothing but fear that these wonderful truths of God aren't true. But God is helping me overcome this. Thank you for your concern.  

[LiberatedEagle]

Hey Lupac,

I experienced a lot of what you're experiencing right now. I was so afraid that James was referring to me when he spoke of a double-minded man being unstable in all his ways. I really wanted to know God, but what I didn't realize was He really wanted ME to know Him first. You know the part in the movie "Matrix" were Neo finally finds Morpheus, but Morpheus tells him he'd been looking for him his whole life? It's kinda synonymous with God and his chosen. The only reason I was never satisfied with the "idea" of God was because He wanted to reveal himself to me in truth and spirit and nothing less would ever suffice. Sure I fellowshipped with the scribes and pharisees of today and felt I was doing everything I was supposed to do, but that was the problem, I WAS DOING IT.

One of the main "bumps in the road" christians will never in this life get over is the myth that they must choose God back after He chooses them. Did any of the disciples choose God back? No. They all forsook him including Peter who totally DENIED Jesus; Have you denied Jesus to the point you cursed to affirm disassociation with Christ? I doubt it. I mean how scary is THAT to deny the man who gave you the power to walk on water!! Only after the power of God was given to them did they truly rep Jesus.

Lupac, you are no different than Peter, Paul, John, me and all of the other brothers and sisters God has chosen. He's going to make sure you understand that it's not according to your intelligence, your wisdom, and your strength, but only His power. If you go back and look at some of my earlier posts I was stumped. I couldn't understand how I was supposed to be the righteous individual, but still smoked mary jane EVERYDAY. It was tormenting for me up until the point where I was literally about to commit suicide. I didn't want to be around anyone. But in due time God gave me a glimpse of His will and purpose for my life and encouraged me to just believe He loves me and that He will make sure I don't end up a failure.  

Stop worrying about what you don't understand, but ya know what I'm not going to even finish that statement because one day you'll look back and see why God allowed you to have the mindset you have now. Just know that God gotcha right where He wants you.

Be Encouraged Bro,

Charles

[ARisingSon]

Lupac,
   I feel your pain. As most of us here can testify, we have gone through similar experiences as Father has drawn us to Him. When Father dealt with me for two years('95 & '96) I felt like I'd been pulled through a knot hole. The object of His dealings was to bring me to the end of myself.  When He got me to the point of despairing of life itself, that is I no longer had the desire to live because I saw my absolute inability to live my life. At this point, Father showed me His awesome love that He had for me. When He revealed His love to me at the time of bringing me to see myself as a worthless, useless piece of junk---IT BROKE ME!!!  The realization of His awesome love drove me to my knees in total surrender to His leading of my life.  The heavens opened to give me "the peace that surpasses all understanding". From that moment till this very instant Holy Spirit has given me a continual feast of "Manna from Heaven". Whereas, before I was blind--NOW I SEE!!  Glory to God for He alone can open blind eyes to see and melt hearts of stone to worship and praise Him!! What I went through was my "hell" experience. The same "hell" that everyone must experience.  So, hang in there and be assured that Father will,in His own time for you, bring you into His Family.  Grace be with you.   Earl