Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[servias]

I have been thinking about this all day.  I feel bad that so many good people I know just can't (Gods WILL) or wont see the truth.  I don't feel guilty but I do feel very privileged because I know I haven't been the best person by a long-shot.  

So it brought me to this question..."Why did God cause in his plan, for so many people to be deceived by the church?"  At first it was puzzling to me.  I fully understand that its Gods WILL but their must be a good reason for this right?  Then I came to this conclusion - Maybe, just MAYBE God knows that if the truth was only taught, people would think "God is too good to be true".  And if they were always taught the truth in life they may be less appreciative to Gods true LOVE. And maybe because of this FEWER people would have some sort of connection with GOD.  Am I way off in my thinking?  I am NOT trying to rationalize what a church does but I'm trying to see it threw Gods eyes, I want to know why this was in his plan.  But knowing how my brain is I am probably over thinking things.  I tend to get into deep discussions with myself

After this thought came to me and reminded me of this verse.  1Ti 5:8 Now if anyone is not providing for his own, and especially his family, he has disowned the faith, and is worse than an unbeliever.

DTM

[arion]

Why does God allow so many people to be deceived by the church?

I think because his entire plan revolves around calling many but selecting few.  It's the wisdom of God.  Jesus Christ doesn't need anyone to help to judge and correct the world in righteousness.  What a privilege for His select few to rule and reign with him in the next age and to be an instrumental part of bringing the world to repentance.  At the beginning one of the reasons I had trouble with universal salvation is reconciling the fact that the scriptures show those who are not in the first resurrection as objects of repulsion and horror along with all the adjectives that Jesus used of their condition.  But I wondered how can this be as God is love, love never fails and God doesn't change.  Then it occurred to me that the horror and repulsion is from the viewpoint of those who are not in the first resurrection and not from the viewpoint of God or of the elect.  When I stop to think that if I don't make the first resurrection and I am in the presence of those who were once bags of dirt like myself but now they are sinless and in their glorified bodies and I am still in my sins....there will be repulsion and horror all right but it will be the repulsion and horror of the lost seeing themselves perhaps for the very first time as they really are.  For us God shows us the beast within in stages.  At least that is the way it is for me.  It isn't dumped on me all at once.  Once I understood it this way for me the scriptures clicked together and made sense.

[Kat]

Hi Dan,

And if they were always taught the truth in life they may be less appreciative to Gods true LOVE. And maybe because of this FEWER people would have some sort of connection with GOD.  Am I way off in my thinking?

I think you are on the right track.


Titus 3:3  For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.

The whole human race has been given a physical existence so as to experience good and evil (the tree of life). This age is the first stage/part of the process of being brought towards immortality and it is temporary. But it is an absolute necessary part of the process, we must first live in this world and be deceived, corrupt, dishonorable, weak to the pulls of the flesh, a sinner, this is the dark backdrop we all must experience. But God promises us this is not the end of it.
Here is an email that speaks about this present evil age we are living in.

http://bible-truths.com/email3.htm ------------------------

God created evil for a purpose. So naturally He will not make evil inoperative at every turn in the road or there would have been no purpose in creating it in the first place.

Evil serves many noble purposes. One of which is a back drop for good. Good cannot be understood or certainly not appreciated without a backdrop of evil. Evil makes good appear even better and is certainly much more appreciated.

Evil is necessary for the production or development of good.  You cannot name one virtue that is not in some way produced by the resistance to some form of evil.

All knowledge is matter of contrast and relativity. One cannot know what light is unless he has been acquainted with darkness.  One has no conception of large unless he also knows of things that are small. Up is only up in relation to down. Life is the opposite of death, etc. To understand and fully appreciate all of these things, there are many necessary experiences to go through. God creates and puts us through these many things in the development of godly character.

All of these evils can be likened to the creation of a beautiful building. Ugly scaffolding is necessary in the construction of this building. It is ugly and serves no purpose other than in the actual construction of the building. When the building is completed, the scaffolding is torn down and discarded. It serves no further purpose. All evil will be discarded one day. And the last enemy, DEATH, will likewise be ABOLISHED FOR EVER (I Cor. 15:26) and God will "ALL in All"!!!
------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[daywalker]

I have been thinking about this all day.  I feel bad that so many good people I know just can't (Gods WILL) or wont see the truth.  I don't feel guilty but I do feel very privileged because I know I haven't been the best person by a long-shot. 

So it brought me to this question..."Why does God allow so many people to be deceived by the church?"  At first it was puzzling to me.  I fully understand that its Gods WILL but their must be a good reason for this right?  Then I came to this conclusion - Maybe, just MAYBE God knows that if the truth was only taught, people would think "God is too good to be true".  And if they were always taught the truth in life they may be less appreciative to Gods true LOVE. And maybe because of this FEWER people would have some sort of connection with GOD.  Am I way off in my thinking?  I am NOT trying to rationalize what a church does but I'm trying to see it threw Gods eyes, I want to know why this was in his plan.  But knowing how my brain is I am probably over thinking things.  I tend to get into deep discussions with myself

After this thought came to me and reminded me of this verse.  1Ti 5:8 Now if anyone is not providing for his own, and especially his family, he has disowned the faith, and is worse than an unbeliever.

DTM

When I first discovered BT and Ray's teachings, I was dumbfounded. I was so amazed at how Ray was destroying all the doctrines of my [former] church, with the very same book that it claimed to teach and believe in! As I "watched" him expose hell, free will, trinity, rapture, etc, etc... It made me start thinking, "gosh, is ANYTHING that my church taught true? I mean, they can't be wrong about everything, could they?" So after reading all of Ray's teachings, I become eager to know if what I had discovered [in his teaching] were true.

So I began searching, studying, praying. I downloaded eSword, and any other freebie program I could find [cuz I'm broke.  Though I did purchase the Rotherham's translation.] I wanted to know "is there ANYTHING that the church teaches that is Scripturally true?" So far, I haven't found one thing, really... I mean, some things they say they believe are true, but when you dig into their beliefs you find they don't really believe what they say they do. [example: Did Jesus "die" for our sins? Church says yes, but then, did Jesus really "die" for 3 days? Church says no, He went to Hades and preached...]


The point that I wanted to make is that it was this burning curiosity that really got me going, and continues to push me to study and seek God and Truth. Perhaps if the Church wasn't so deceived and there were many more people in the world who really DO LOVE GOD AND WANT TRUTH, then I wouldn't have the thirst for Him that I do?


Daywalker 

[servias]

Daywalker,
You explained it better than I could have!  I have a hard time explaining what I mean sometimes but you nailed it.  And I am going into all those things you mentioned.

Arion,
I really like your take on this question too.  I like how you explained "objects of repulsion" of the resurrection.

Kat,
I understand that we all must understand evil to become righteous...it just seems that tweaking the word of God is absolutely a horrible sin, especially on a mass scale that it is on now.  I mean these things have been taught for generations and I feel the "religious leaders" got some explaining to do at judgement.  I don't feel all are absolutely evil but if a slum like me can read between the lines  ...
But I suppose it will be as big of a shock to them as it was to me,  Thank GOD WE WILL ALL EVENTUALLY SEE THE TRUTH OF OUR GOD!

Thanks you guys for the responses,
Dan

[Dennis Vogel]

So it brought me to this question..."Why does God allow so many people to be deceived by the church?"
DTM

Another point please. God does not allow anything. Everything is according to His plan.

[grapehound]

Hi Dan,

Thank you soooo much for this very searching question.
The responses are an education aren't they?


Arion

For us God shows us the beast within in stages.  At least that is the way it is for me.  It isn't dumped on me all at once.

What a loving Father !

Kat,
as always a priceless response!
More power to you!

I see the church as a fishing net that He can lift us from, kill us and clean us!

Thank y'all in Jesus.

Muchest Luv

Grape xxx

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi DanTheMan

Dennis hits the nail smack on the head.

God doesn’t allow evil and good, He CAUSES everything!

We have got to get away from the "God allows certain things" mentality and syndrome. God CREATES, God DESTROYS, God HEALS, God KILLS, God CAUSES, God BRINGS ABOUT. God SAVES. God does not "allow" things that He has not foreordained to be! This popular doctrine among the religions of the world is utter unscriptural foolishness. The teaching suggests that man does things that God had no previous knowledge of, does not approve of, wishes would have never happened, but nonetheless, He "allows" them. Certainly He "allows" them in as much as He does not "disallow" them, but this still begs the question as to their true origin. God is the Creator, not Satan.
"For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are all things: to Whom be glory for ever.  Amen" (KJV Rom. 11:36).
"Seeing that OUT of Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him is all..." (Concordant Version).
Does this also include EVIL?
"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me, I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL THESE THINGS" (Isaiah 45:6-7).
LOF 2

Ray has also expounded the following.

1Th 2:4  But as we were allowed G1381 of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.

G1381
δοκιμάζω
dokimazō
dok-im-ad'-zo
From G1384; to test (literally or figuratively); by implication to approve: - allow, discern, examine, X like, (ap-) prove, try. e-Sword ref.

By implication, our Brother Paul was APPROVED of God, to be put in trust with the gospel.


ALL THE BIBLICAL EXAMPLES OF WHAT GOD ALLOWS
Here then are all the Biblical examples of what God “allows”:
“But as we were allowed [Gk:   ‘approved’] of God to be put in trust with the gospel…”  (I Thes. 2:4).
That’s it! That is the totality of everything in the Bible that God “allows.”
LOF Part 15 C

Likewise DanTheMan, as you say, we ARE very privileged. We are being trained to know good from evil.

Your awareness of being  in danger if you follow your rational mind to believe , accept or think above what is written in the Scriptures  is spot on, of the Spirit of Christ cautioning you!

We can only understand spiritual matters spiritually. The Spirit of Christ speaks to us through our Brother Paul saying:


1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Joh 14:26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My Name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto YOU.

UNDERSTANDING COMES ONLY FROM THE SPIRIT L. Ray Smith LOF Part 7
ONLY GOD DELIVERS FROM BONDAGE
EVEN GOD’S CHOSEN ELECT WERE ONCE DECEIVED L.Ray Smith LOF Part 15 B

Arion

You say, Quote….the horror and repulsion is from the viewpoint of those who are not in the first resurrection..unquote

Again, apples of gold in pictures of silver! 

Jas 2:13  For he who shows no mercy will have judgement given against him without mercy; but mercy triumphs over judgement.

The Proverb tells us that, "For a just man falls seven times…" That’s a COMPLETE fall. But strange as it may seem, this is necessary in God’s plan. What happens to a just man after he falls seven times? "…and RISES UP AGAIN" (Prov. 24:16). When he completely falls, he falls from grace. But for those whom God is both calling AND choosing, they will RISE UP AGAIN, for
"Who are you that judges another man’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Yes, he shall be holden up [made to stand up]: for God is able to MAKE HIM STAND" (Rom. 14:4).
We will ALL FALL! But afterwards, God "raises us UP AGAIN," and "makes us STAND." And from that time onward we have this sure promise of which we read before, but I want to read again:
"Now unto Him that is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, and to present you FAULTLESS before the presence of His glory with EXCEEDING JOY, To the Only Wise God Our Saviour, be glory and majesty, and dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 124-25)!
LOF 13

Arc

[servias]

Your right Dennis and Arc,  I edited the question in the first post to remove "Allow" so its not so confusing.

I have a question for you guys that is kind of related to Daywalkers response...

Before finding BT I was not very religious, but now after knowing what is true I cannot deny this work that Ray has done,  I have studied more in the last couple of months than the rest of my life.  Its alot easier reading the bible than it was before!  I feel "DRAGGED" here and I cant leave knowing what I know.  I can't escape GOD and what he wants me to learn.  Not that I want to leave at all!  I do not know if anyone else has had a similar experience.

[Kat]

Oh yes Dan, I certainly do. Of course I had been seeking truth all my years in the church, and we all know now that is to no avail. But it seems that as soon as I found the BT site I felt very compelled to study this truth as much as possible. I did not join the forum for a while, as I wanted to spend all my time, at first, studing the articles. But when I did join up here it was a means to continue with liked minded brother and sisters in searching out this truth and I am absolutely a fixture here now    I seem to have an unquenchable desire to be involved in this truth in some way, either reading the articles to answer a question or searching the Scriptures for an answer. And the Bible is a living source of knowledge that I have never known in all my years, before now.

I can only hope and pray that God continues to provide this zeal inside me, because I know it is not self generated.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Marky Mark]

When I first discovered BT and Ray's teachings, I was dumbfounded. I was so amazed at how Ray was destroying all the doctrines of my [former] church, with the very same book that it claimed to teach and believe in! As I "watched" him expose hell, free will, trinity, rapture, etc, etc... It made me start thinking, "gosh, is ANYTHING that my church taught true? I mean, they can't be wrong about everything, could they?" So after reading all of Ray's teachings, I become eager to know if what I had discovered [in his teaching] were true.

So I began searching, studying, praying. I downloaded eSword, and any other freebie program I could find [cuz I'm broke.   Though I did purchase the Rotherham's translation.] I wanted to know "is there ANYTHING that the church teaches that is Scripturally true?" So far, I haven't found one thing, really... I mean, some things they say they believe are true, but when you dig into their beliefs you find they don't really believe what they say they do. [example: Did Jesus "die" for our sins? Church says yes, but then, did Jesus really "die" for 3 days? Church says no, He went to Hades and preached...]


The point that I wanted to make is that it was this burning curiosity that really got me going, and continues to push me to study and seek God and Truth. Perhaps if the Church wasn't so deceived and there were many more people in the world who really DO LOVE GOD AND WANT TRUTH, then I wouldn't have the thirst for Him that I do?


Daywalker  

Christopher,a little heads up. I know you know this, but newbies may not.

Jesus was three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11616.0.html



Peace...Mark

[arion]

Your right Dennis and Arc,  I edited the question in the first post to remove "Allow" so its not so confusing.

I still fight this all the time even though I now know better.  I still use the word allow at times and it comes out of my mouth before I even realize what I said.  From the strictly carnal human standpoint most men know that God is good and God is holy (even though we aren't) so naturally we wonder why God 'allows' this evil or that evil and the churches would have their parishioners convinced of a grand struggle between God and Satan battling over the souls of men and of course because man has a 'free' will most won't make the grade and will be eternally lost.  This is pretty much boilerplate no matter what daughter of Babylon from the christian church a sect is from.  There is so much erroneous teaching to overcome and it takes time and the fires of God in our spirits to show us these things.  We weren't deceived overnight and reversing all the deception doesn't happen overnight either.

Of course I had been seeking truth all my years in the church, and we all know now that is to no avail. But it seems that as soon as I found the BT site I felt very compelled to study this truth as much as possible. I did not join the forum for a while,

I lurked here for over two years before I even entertained the idea of joining the forum.  I was so green on things I just didn't even feel that I had any worthy questions let alone ever having something to share in God's truths that might be helpful to someone else.  Coming across the truths we find here is a blinding light to a man living in a dark cave all his life and it was like learning to walk or how to tie my shoes as a small child all over again.

[daywalker]

Your right Dennis and Arc,  I edited the question in the first post to remove "Allow" so its not so confusing.

I have a question for you guys that is kind of related to Daywalkers response...

Before finding BT I was not very religious, but now after knowing what is true I cannot deny this work that Ray has done,  I have studied more in the last couple of months than the rest of my life.  Its alot easier reading the bible than it was before!  I feel "DRAGGED" here and I cant leave knowing what I know.  I can't escape GOD and what he wants me to learn.  Not that I want to leave at all!  I do not know if anyone else has had a similar experience.

Yep, I sure have. In fact, I've even had a few occasions where I actually DID TRY to "walk away"; not that I wanted to 'forget' all I learned, but I was just tired and frustrated [and even a lil angry at God for certain reasons...] BUT after a few days of me 'wondering', He dragged me back!  I believe it's just part of His process of destroying my carnal beastly nature, and conforming me to His Will for my life.

Christopher,a little heads up. I know you know this, but newbies may not. Smiley

Jesus was three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH

Yea, good point Mark. I should have left out "for 3 days"... In my own defense, I was typing quickly as I was getting ready to leave my house for a while, so I didn't proof read my post as I normally do, or perhaps I would've noticed that   Thanks though.


Daywalker 

[servias]

Thanks guys all this really helps me out. 
I know I have probably jumped the gun by joining the forum in my early stages but I had too.  I had to do it  . 
I tend to get deep in my thoughts but will try not to ask questions I should already know.  And most importantly I want to keep a happy friendly atmosphere so please tell me if I am ever out-of-line or not rightfully contributing, or am in the way. 
Dan 

[daywalker]

Thanks guys all this really helps me out. 
I know I have probably jumped the gun by joining the forum in my early stages but I had too.  I had to do it  . 
I tend to get deep in my thoughts but will try not to ask questions I should already know.  And most importantly I want to keep a happy friendly atmosphere so please tell me if I am ever out-of-line or not rightfully contributing, or am in the way. 
Dan 

Dan,

On the contrary! Do ask... always! No matter how 'lame' or 'obvious' it may seem to you, ask! The worst thing you could do during this 'spiritual-transition' is to hide away in a dark cave somewhere when you have brothers and sisters here who are ready and willing to help you. Besides, your words help all of us just as much as any of ours may help me... Trust me.


Christopher 

PS: the (!) are for emphasis, not to imply yelling... just fyi 

[arion]

Dan;

I didn't join for a couple of years after stumbling across this website.  That certainly doesn't mean that others should wait as long as I did.  People here are very patient and if nothing else they can point us to areas of Ray's teachings that address our concerns that would take you a long time to find if your not familiar with the teachings.

[servias]

You guys are awesome!  Thanks!