Hello Marques
I truly am grateful for your hard work as a moderator in conjunction with whatever else you do...I honestly don't know how you do it.
Just to use an imperfect analogy, I have a small business. And all things, people and equipment, pretty much hum along according to the rules and protocols that I put in place. So I do not directly do everything, my employees do what is expected with full understanding of what I would do if I was there, knowing I am in the background and so they follow protocols, so everything goes according to plan...usually :-) (this is an imperfect analogy) But sometimes something is so important I "step in" and do it all myself. That is what I meant by God "stepping in" at various times in the creation, not that He ever "stepped out" no, some things He just does in a more direct way, in the way the scriptures indicate. That is all I meant by God, "stepping in" It was not to imply that even for a moment that all things were not indeed having their cohesion in God, or that God in any sense, had ever, "stepped out" If God ever stepped out, the whole she bang would collapse. He sustains it all by His powerful word.
Now as for the other issue, we do have some very pointed scriptures...
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
OK so Jesus was in all points tempted like as we, yet without sin
How was it possible that Jesus could even be tempted?
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man
Because He was made like unto his brethren. He was made in the likeness of men. He was found in fashion as a man. Jesus condescended to become a man from the Highest.
Does this mean Jesus had a carnal mind? That all men have?
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Was Jesus mind ever in enmity with God? NEVER. He always was subject to the law of God. Therefore I conclude He did not have a carnal mind.
OK so Jesus was tempted, in all points, was made like unto his brethren, was made in our likeness, in our fashion, and did not have a carnal mind.
How do we reconcile all that? How can one even be tempted without a carnal mind?
OK first of all the Scriptures description of carnality is ONLY talking about all of us who have come forth since from the sinful Adam, and thus share in Adams mortality and death. The scriptures discussion of the carnal mind has in view, what we all have inherited, AFTER the disobedience of Adam and Eve. That is when death passed unto all men. That is our inheritance in Adam, death, now we are given over to reprobateness. I spoke of this earlier in this thread, how God has given the disobedient over to a reprobate mind. there is a clear order here, the reprobate mind did not precede disobedience, it follows it.
God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Why did God give them over to this reprobate mind?
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge....
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
This was part of Gods judgment, the result of the death sentence, that in the day ye shall eat, ye shall surely die.
Am I saying that the church is correct in saying that Adam and Eve were perfect at their creation? NO NO NO The church thinks the only other option available before the disobedience is perfection, but no, it is actually whatever mind and spiritual strength God had given Adam and Eve before their disobedience.
As Ray mentioned, in Eve, before the disobedience, in her, there was present, the things of the world.... 1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Adam and Eve being of the world, had this in them! How do we know...
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
But they still had to act! They had to act, to be made guilty. If Adam and Eve were not spiritually weak as water, if they would of been made very spiritually strong, if they would of been full of the spirit of God, if God would of made them strong enough, they would not of sinned! Even with the temptation they felt! GOD made them spiritually weak.
Now Christ, on the other hand, had GREAT spiritual strength. Whether God gave Him this great strength by virtue of His birth(avoiding Adams inheritance) or through His spirit, or both, but I see that as the telling difference. The level of spiritual strength!!!!!!!!
But I feel it is VERY IMPORTANT to know and understand that Christ was every bit as much man as Adam was, cause Christ was made man!
And when Jesus was tempted, that temptation was REAL! How can Jesus be lauded for overcoming temptations which He did not actually feel or experience? Of course the temptations were REAL.
But Christ never had a mind that was at enmity with God. Never.
I think that Jesus was made to be just like Adam, to be fashioned as a man, BEFORE the disobedience. It had to be before the disobedience because Jesus was NOT born of ADAM! He had no part of that sin in Him. He was born of God in the likeness of Adam. So Jesus the man was like the original Adam except He had MUCH greater spiritual strength and the spirit of God.
Now of course, Jesus has a spiritual body that we all will inherit someday.
Now of course we have a much greater inheritance coming from the second Adam
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
We have born the image of the earthly, we shall bear the image of the heavenly.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Praise God we shall be like Him, the Last Adam, the Second Man, Jesus Christ. We will have His inheritance!