Hi se7en,
My understanding is that when Christ returns His church (not the entire Christian church) - the chosen/elect/sheep will be resurrected and vivified to glorious spiritual bodies and meet Christ in the air, first the dead then those still alive immediately after.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
v.17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Hi Kit Kat
I couldn't believe that the above comes from you, you were my next best inspiration after Ray, quoting his teachings to all over the many years, please see teachings from Ray, subject: Exposing the secret rapture.
RAPTURE OF THE WICKED
Notice that our Lord instructs us that "as the days of Noah, thus shall it be." Okay then, how was it in the days of Noah? Who was "left" and who was "taken away?"
"For as they were in those days before the deluge, eating and drinking and marrying and taking in marriage until the day on which Noah entered into the ark, and did not know till the deluge came and takes them all AWAY, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind" (Mat. 24:38-39).
Did you catch that? It was all the wicked who were eating, drinking, and marrying that were "TAKEN AWAY," not Noah and his family!
And so here we have a principle that is used throughout the entire Bible--the good are left and the bad are taken away. Immediately after verse 39 where the wicked are "taken," we have verse 40 which says, "Then two shall be in the field; one [wicked] is taken along and one left: two grinding at the millstone; one [wicked] is taken along and one left."
For further conformation of this look at the parable of the wheat and the tares. You all know the parable, so I won’t repeat all of it. Just notice that the tares
"are gathered and burned in the fire" (Mat. 13:40).
And
"they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend ..." (Ver 41).
So the tares are gathered out and burned and the wheat is left behind.
Notice Romans 8:33, "... God’s elect," Col. 3:12, "... the elect of God ..." Titus 1:1, "... God;s elect ..." Now look at Mat. 24:22, "Yet because of the elect [chosen], those days shall be shortened." Therefore, the "elect" or chosen ones have not been raptured away, but rather left, or God wouldn’t have to shorten the days of tribulation for the sake of the "elect."
Didn’t our Lord clearly pray to His Father, "I am not asking that Thou shouldst be taking them AWAY OUT OF THE WORLD, but that Thou shouldst be keeping them from the wicked one" (John 17:15)?
One more,
"Again the Kingdom of heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea [multitudes of people, Rev. 17:15] and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad AWAY. So shall it be at the end of the age: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire ..." (Mat. 13:47-50).
Clearly the good are retained and kept, but the bad are severed and taken away! If ever there is to be a rapture, it will be A RAPTURE OF THE WICKED, not of the saints!
Now a few Scriptures to show that it was always God’s intention that the righteous remain on this earth:
"The righteous shall never be REMOVED [or raptured]; and the wicked shall not inherit the earth" (Prove. 10:30).
"The righteous shall be recompensed in the EARTH [not raptured to heaven]" (Prov. 11:31).
"Take AWAY the dross from the silver ... Take AWAY the wicked from the King ..." (Prov. 25:4-5).
"They [the wicked] are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth AWAY " (Job 21:18).
"... take hold of the ends of the earth that the wicked might be shaken OUT of it" (John 38:13).
And finally, "... REMOVING those things that are shaken [the wicked] ... that those things that cannot be shaken [the righteous] may REMAIN ... accepting an unshakable kingdom ..." (Heb. 12:27-28).
Jesus said He was going to His Father IN HEAVEN to prepare a place for His apostles. Peter said that Christ,
"... regenerates us into a living expectation, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from among the dead, for the enjoyment of an allotment incorruptible and undefiled and unfading, KEPT IN THE HEAVENS FOR YOU ..." (I Pet. 1:4-5).
And yet we know that Christ brings these treasures BACK TO EARTH.
Why do we think it is any different for the Gentiles? It is not different.
"... we have a building of God, a house not made by hands, eonian, IN THE HEAVENS." (II Cor. 5:1).
But are we unlike the Jews in that we really GO to heaven to receive our treasures? NO! Next verse: "For in this also we are groaning, longing to be dressed in our habitation which is OUT of heaven ..."
There are so many Scriptures like this that contradict the rapture theory. Look at this one,
"The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord’s; but the EARTH hath He given to the children of men" (Psalm 115:6). One more, "... for we are your glorying (even as you also are ours) in THE DAY OF OUR LORD JESUS" (II Cor. 1:14).
Not in the "rapture," but in "the day of our Lord."
I seriously doubt whether anyone could prove to us that the place where God dwells, "heaven," is actually a specific geographical location so many light years from the earth on some galactic rock in outer space. In the same way "eternity" is not "a very long time." They are both a condition or a realm. God is in us, while He is in Heaven, while He is also simultaneously, EVERYWHERE!
Since, "... we shall be judging messengers ..." Is it logical to conclude that we will need space worthy bodies to travel among the galaxies of outer space? Maybe we should ask whether messengers really reside millions of light years from earth on the rocks and planets of outer space.
FROM WHERE DO WE JUDGE?
"Or are you not aware that the saints shall judge THE WORLD? And if the world is being judged by you, are you unworthy of the least tribunals? Are you not aware that we shall be judging MESSENGERS, not to mention life’s affairs?" Notice that the same "you" and "we" are to judge the "world" AND "messengers." And the judging of messengers is linked with judging "life’s affairs." "Life’s affairs is not something going on in OUTER SPACE! Life’s affairs are things on the earth, which is the same location at which we will be "judging messengers!" And these two judgments are not separated by thousands of years.
I have never gone into outer space, however, guess what? I have and still do wrestle creatures among the celestials! "... for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world mights of this darkness, with spiritual forces of wickedness AMONG THE CELESTIALS" (Eph. 6:12)! Now think for a moment, if we can right here and now, from the earth, wrestle with creatures among the celestials, why can’t we also judge and instruct them as well, FROM THE EARTH?
When Christ returns to set up His kingdom on earth, He brings the place of authority or rulership that He has prepared for the apostles with Him so that "... where I am, YOU ALSO MAY BE" (John 14:3). During Christ’s reign on earth His apostles will be WITH THE LORD. Now notice I Thes. 4:17 where it is stated that when Christ returns to the Gentile saints "... thus shall we always be together WITH THE LORD ..." We also will be with the Lord on the earth, not in outer space.
Below is a chart of six Scriptural references showing six categories of events with regards to Christ’s return. It is the second and fourth references that rapturists claim are descriptions of a secret rapture, while the first, third, fifth and sixth are supposedly a later and different event. Irrespective of similarities, we are told that it is "The differences that make them different." But we have shown conclusively that these differences do no constitute contradictions--only additions or omissions of information.
If we study the chart for a few minutes we are struck with the similarity of events described. Although the second and fourth references are claimed to be the secret rapture, there is really no apparent reason to select these two references as being the same event but definitely different from the others.
None of the references are exactly alike, but seriously, can’t we see that the second reference (I Thes. 4) has more categories in common with the first reference (Mat. 24) and the third reference (I Thes 1) than it does with the fourth reference (I Cor. 15). Yet, rapturists reject Matthew 24 and I Thessalonians 1 as being the same even as I Thessalonians 4 and I Corinthians 15.
There are, of course, dozens of other Scriptures that also speak of Christ’s return to this earth to set up His kingdom, but most of them do not have as many detained events mentioned as do these six references.
I think it should becoming clear by now that not only is there no evidence in the letter to support a secret rapture prior to Christ’s return to His saints, but there is also no evidence to support a Scriptural division among the saints that would call for such a rapture either.
You still inspire me though.