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[John from Kentucky]

did Jesus lift His voice on high to speak about the evil, social topics of His day?  no he did not.  why should we?  ALL is of God. 
i had an abortion when i was 17 yrs old.  my parents drove me to san antonio from the small town we lived in south texas.  there was no (legal) facility that would do abortions in my town.  it was a horrible experience for all of us.  it was an excruciating time and decision we had to make.  i had overdosed/seizured/lost consciousness on cocaine while not knowing i was in the early weeks of pregnancy. i survived the cocaine ordeal by the mercy of God.  (never told my parents about that part.  i had graduated from high school, not living at home).  i have asked God's forgiveness for putting my parents through such a horrible ordeal, for the death of the newly formed, unborn child, and forgiveness for myself.   and every time i see a bumper sticker about abortion i plead for forgiveness again.  and reading this thread telling how there will be an accounting and recompense for abortion just rips it all open again. 

pointing the finger at all women who have ever had an abortion (especially without knowing why) makes one appear to be their judge.  let all men be silenced and only God be the Righteous Judge.

claudia

Peace Claudia,

Let go of what is past.

Jesus will heal all our hurts.

[Dave in Tenn]

Amen.

[Rhys 🕊]

And a yippee Amen too 

Rhys

[walt123]

Hello All

Abortion? or whatever else? evil, sin etc,  it has to be,no way around it.

Ray's email


Dear Nameless:

Thank you for your email and questions.

There are billions and billions of people that God has not yet saved. Your questions is more basic than just why didn't God save those in the twin towers.

All of such things are examples of evil. God created evil for a purpose. So naturally He will not make evil inoperative at every turn in the road or there would have been no purpose in creating it in the first place.

Evil serves many noble purposes. One of which is a back drop for good. Good cannot be understood or certainly not appreciated without a backdrop of evil. Evil makes good appear even better and is certainly much more appreciated.

Evil is necessary for the production or development of good.  You cannot name one virtue that is not in some way produced by the resistance to some form of evil.

All knowledge is matter of contrast and relativity. One cannot know what light is unless he has been acquainted with darkness.  One has no conception of large unless he also knows of things that are small. Up is only up in relation to down. Life is the opposite of death, etc. To understand and fully appreciate all of these things, there are many necessary experiences to go through. God creates and puts us through these many things in the development of godly character.

All of these evils can be likened to the creation of a beautiful building. Ugly scaffolding is necessary in the construction of this building. It is ugly and serves no purpose other than in the actual construction of the building. When the building is completed, the scaffolding is torn down and discarded. It serves no further purpose. All evil will be discarded one day. And the last enemy, DEATH, will likewise be ABOLISHED FOR EVER (I Cor. 15:26) and God will "ALL in All"!!!

May God be with you and grant you wisdom and understanding.

Sincerely,

Ray

PS JFK , I believe God said some where that  he knew you or us before we were even conceived,I don't think we had breath or breathing at that time.

Walt.

[arion]

i have asked God's forgiveness for putting my parents through such a horrible ordeal, for the death of the newly formed, unborn child, and forgiveness for myself.   and every time i see a bumper sticker about abortion i plead for forgiveness again.  and reading this thread telling how there will be an accounting and recompense for abortion just rips it all open again. 

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Claudia, you have to believe that and walk in that.  You don't have to continue to plead forgiveness every time you see a bumper sticker.  You are forgiven and will never have to account for that again.  Now believe that...because it's true!! 

What if a male when he was 20 years old who has posted on this thread caused his 18 year old girlfriend to get an abortion and now he is in his 50's?  This isn't a woman only issue.  As a man I'm as guilty for pressuring a girl as you would be for going through with it and perhaps the man is even more responsible. 

Although I know of and walk in such forgiveness yet I also know that all this sin will have to be dealt with on an individual basis in the ages to come if we don't repent now and I also know from the old testament [which is still part of God's word] that nations as a whole bear the weight in the here and now for the collective sin of the land.  I point us to Ray's papers on the towers.  Even now I believe we are beginning to see coming to pass in this nation what Ray warned us about.  It is what it is.

[loretta]

Consider another thing, if all these millions, probably billions of stillborn babies would be raised at the resurrection, would God bring them all to full term so they could live outside of the womb as many miscarriages happen very early in pregnancy? Well of course He could... but then what would the beginning of the next age be, a giant nursery? It would need to be and it would be a full time job for most of the population to care for all these babies. Well that's not such a bad thing, but is there any indication in Scripture that's what the next age is about? We know the next age is for judgment.

For millions of women like me, I hope what Kat says is true.  I would hate to be confronted with what could have been.  That alone would rip me to pieces.

I recall watching 'The Silent Scream' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gON-8PP6zgQ - an ultrasound video about abortion as Arion described, screened in my local church.  Just into my twenties, I remember recoiling with horror and vowing never to have an abortion.  Yet, a decade later & in a difficult marriage, I couldn't face the prospect of raising a second child.  Truth be told, I never flinched and though I do have regrets now, there is no sorrow or anguish. That I believe is of God too.  With all that is going on in my life, I couldn't have dealt with that pain as well. But at 42, soon after becoming a believer, I found myself pregnant again and this time I couldn't go through the procedure, despite the risks of a late pregnancy. I chose to have my second child and became an ardent pro-lifer.  Till BT, and then I realized I had no free-will at all about it, so how could I boast?  God has purposed life for my child and orchestrated events in my life such that would not allow her life to be terminated.  It couldn't have been any other way. This knowledge is so profound that it helps to contemplate upon it especially when I begin to doubt the choices I made.

Yes, abortion is evil, but a necessary one that humanity might know good.  And yes, we must speak out against it for we are called to resist evil.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

 

[indianabob]

Hi folks,
Somewhat different topic although related I think.

What if God had allowed a larger minority e.g. church members to know of the resurrection of all, without the indwelling of God's spirit to guide them? Would that knowledge have been a benefit or would it have led to more "license" to sin and seek grace selfishly?

What if the "many" knew and believed that they could just sin and go to confession and find absolute forgiveness the way some seem to teach? Would most or perhaps ALL sinners just take advantage since there would be no fear of losing their salvation or their place in "the heaven of God" IF they believed that God was required to forgive if they just said sorry with contrition and performed some penance?

I have considered over the years of my parenting that children who are not admonished and given a reward of punishment for their misdeeds tend to take advantage and become more selfish and rebellious. Of course all are individuals and some are less likely to take advantage due to circumstances, but I think that humans in general tend toward resisting obedience to God's way of life. We are after all in natural possession of an evil mind in various degrees, are we not?

So what would happen if we who have been spiritually gifted with knowledge were successful in preaching to others not yet called of God, what we have learned? Would that success make the world a better place to live for all people? I doubt it...

please comment, Indiana Bob

[lilitalienboi16]

Kat brings up an interesting point.

The Scriptures do indicate that a human becomes a living soul when breathe enters the body.

A baby in a mother lives off its mother's breathe and nutrients.

Also, in the Law of Moses, if a pregnant woman was struck and lost the child within her, then monetary compensation had to be paid to her husband.

If a living person was intentionally killed, then the killer was subject to the death penalty.  Even if they clung to the altar of sacrifice, they were to be dragged out and executed.

If a living person were killed by accident, not intentionally, then the killer had to flee to one of the six cities of refuge, three on the east of the Jordan River and three on the west, in order to be protected from the deceased person's relatives.

But there was no provision in the Law for payment of monetary damages for the deceased.  So that makes me wonder if an unborn child was considered a person, a living soul.  Because if they were a living soul, then the punishment would have been death instead of the payment of monetary damages, if the unborn was killed intentionally.

I do not know the answer to when a human becomes a living soul.  I believe God will have to answer that question in the age to come.  Is it at birth or conception?

But right now, my opinion based upon my understanding of Scriptures, is that a human is a living soul only if they have breathed the breathe of life, at which time they become a living soul.

Hi John,
Doesn't seem like monetary compensations to me for causing a woman to miscarry. More like death.

Exo 21:22  If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23  And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, (KJV)

Exo 21:22 When men strive together and strike a pregnant woman, and her child comes forth, and no mishap comes to be, he shall be fined, yea fined just as the woman's possessor shall impose on him, and he will pay through mediators. "
Exo 21:23 Yet if a mishap comes to be then you will give soul for soul,
[/b] (CLV)

Striking a woman, physical duress or even mental stress can induce labor. I looked at the word in the kjv using strongs for "come forth" or "depart from her" and it said "begotten" as one of the definitions. What I'm seeing her is that if a man harm a pregnant woman and induce her into labor but no harm comes to the child then he pays a fine. IF the child dies, in otherwords, "Yet if mishap comes" then... LIFE FOR LIFE. He is put to death.

yaw-tsaw'
A primitive root; to go (causatively bring) out, in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively, direct and proximate: -    X after, appear, X assuredly, bear out, X begotten, break out, bring forth (out, up), carry out, come (abroad, out, thereat, without), + be condemned, depart (-ing, -ure), draw forth, in the end, escape, exact, fail, fall (out), fetch forth (out), get away (forth, hence, out), (able to, cause to, let) go abroad (forth, on, out), going out, grow, have forth (out), issue out, lay (lie) out, lead out, pluck out, proceed, pull out, put away, be risen, X scarce, send with commandment, shoot forth, spread, spring out, stand out, X still, X surely, take forth (out), at any time, X to [and fro], utter.

Total KJV occurrences: 1068

This seems like strong argument in favor of a pregnant woman child being considered life, after all, the next verse says LIFE (unborn child) for LIFE (man who struck the woman).

Anyway, I'm open minded on this subject but thought I would chime in.
In Christ,
Alex

[John from Kentucky]

Kat brings up an interesting point.

The Scriptures do indicate that a human becomes a living soul when breathe enters the body.

A baby in a mother lives off its mother's breathe and nutrients.

Also, in the Law of Moses, if a pregnant woman was struck and lost the child within her, then monetary compensation had to be paid to her husband.

If a living person was intentionally killed, then the killer was subject to the death penalty.  Even if they clung to the altar of sacrifice, they were to be dragged out and executed.

If a living person were killed by accident, not intentionally, then the killer had to flee to one of the six cities of refuge, three on the east of the Jordan River and three on the west, in order to be protected from the deceased person's relatives.

But there was no provision in the Law for payment of monetary damages for the deceased.  So that makes me wonder if an unborn child was considered a person, a living soul.  Because if they were a living soul, then the punishment would have been death instead of the payment of monetary damages, if the unborn was killed intentionally.

I do not know the answer to when a human becomes a living soul.  I believe God will have to answer that question in the age to come.  Is it at birth or conception?

But right now, my opinion based upon my understanding of Scriptures, is that a human is a living soul only if they have breathed the breathe of life, at which time they become a living soul.

Hi John,
Doesn't seem like monetary compensations to me for causing a woman to miscarry. More like death.

Exo 21:22  If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23  And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, (KJV)

Exo 21:22 When men strive together and strike a pregnant woman, and her child comes forth, and no mishap comes to be, he shall be fined, yea fined just as the woman's possessor shall impose on him, and he will pay through mediators. "
Exo 21:23 Yet if a mishap comes to be then you will give soul for soul,
[/b] (CLV)

Striking a woman, physical duress or even mental stress can induce labor. I looked at the word in the kjv using strongs for "come forth" or "depart from her" and it said "begotten" as one of the definitions. What I'm seeing her is that if a man harm a pregnant woman and induce her into labor but no harm comes to the child then he pays a fine. IF the child dies, in otherwords, "Yet if mishap comes" then... LIFE FOR LIFE. He is put to death.

yaw-tsaw'
A primitive root; to go (causatively bring) out, in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively, direct and proximate: -    X after, appear, X assuredly, bear out, X begotten, break out, bring forth (out, up), carry out, come (abroad, out, thereat, without), + be condemned, depart (-ing, -ure), draw forth, in the end, escape, exact, fail, fall (out), fetch forth (out), get away (forth, hence, out), (able to, cause to, let) go abroad (forth, on, out), going out, grow, have forth (out), issue out, lay (lie) out, lead out, pluck out, proceed, pull out, put away, be risen, X scarce, send with commandment, shoot forth, spread, spring out, stand out, X still, X surely, take forth (out), at any time, X to [and fro], utter.

Total KJV occurrences: 1068

This seems like strong argument in favor of a pregnant woman child being considered life, after all, the next verse says LIFE (unborn child) for LIFE (man who struck the woman).

Anyway, I'm open minded on this subject but thought I would chime in.
In Christ,
Alex

I think you slipped your own interpretation in there.  In your next to last paragraph you state, "...LIFE (unborn child) for LIFE."  Where does the Scripture say that?  That an unborn child is LIFE?

If a pregnant woman is hit, and she miscarries, then the child is either stillborn or born alive.  A stillborn child is not alive.  A stillborn child does not breathe, does not move, does not eat---it is dead.

The Scripture says monetary damages are to be paid.  Only if the child is born alive, breathing, then dies or if the mother subsequently dies, does the Scripture say Life for Life.

We must be careful with Scriptures and not read are own interpretations into them.

The fundamental question is when does human life begin, when does a man become a living soul---at conception or at birth (usually about nine months later).

In Genesis, Adam became a living soul when the breathe of life was breathed into him by God.  Breathe in the nostrils and lungs.

In Ezekiel, the chapter on the valley of dry bones.  For a large number of people, God made all the bones come together, sinews and muscles came upon the bones, and the bodies were covered in flesh.  But the bodies did not come alive until God caused the wind, breathe to enter their bodies, and then the bodies became alive.

I don't see in the Scriptures where a man is a living soul unless he breathes the breathe of life.  When you stop breathing, then you are a dead soul.

Also, Jesus told Nicodemus that we must be born again to live.  What is of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is Spirit.  Either way, you must be born to live.  Jesus was not referring to conception but to actual birth.  We know Jesus was talking about birth because He said those born of the Spirit would be like the wind.  Even though the Elect have God's Spirit in them (conception), they are not born of the Spirit until the Resurrection from the dead, when they will be like the wind.  Life begins at birth, both physical and spiritual.

[lilitalienboi16]

Kat brings up an interesting point.

The Scriptures do indicate that a human becomes a living soul when breathe enters the body.

A baby in a mother lives off its mother's breathe and nutrients.

Also, in the Law of Moses, if a pregnant woman was struck and lost the child within her, then monetary compensation had to be paid to her husband.

If a living person was intentionally killed, then the killer was subject to the death penalty.  Even if they clung to the altar of sacrifice, they were to be dragged out and executed.

If a living person were killed by accident, not intentionally, then the killer had to flee to one of the six cities of refuge, three on the east of the Jordan River and three on the west, in order to be protected from the deceased person's relatives.

But there was no provision in the Law for payment of monetary damages for the deceased.  So that makes me wonder if an unborn child was considered a person, a living soul.  Because if they were a living soul, then the punishment would have been death instead of the payment of monetary damages, if the unborn was killed intentionally.

I do not know the answer to when a human becomes a living soul.  I believe God will have to answer that question in the age to come.  Is it at birth or conception?

But right now, my opinion based upon my understanding of Scriptures, is that a human is a living soul only if they have breathed the breathe of life, at which time they become a living soul.

Hi John,
Doesn't seem like monetary compensations to me for causing a woman to miscarry. More like death.

Exo 21:22  If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23  And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, (KJV)

Exo 21:22 When men strive together and strike a pregnant woman, and her child comes forth, and no mishap comes to be, he shall be fined, yea fined just as the woman's possessor shall impose on him, and he will pay through mediators. "
Exo 21:23 Yet if a mishap comes to be then you will give soul for soul,
[/b] (CLV)

Striking a woman, physical duress or even mental stress can induce labor. I looked at the word in the kjv using strongs for "come forth" or "depart from her" and it said "begotten" as one of the definitions. What I'm seeing her is that if a man harm a pregnant woman and induce her into labor but no harm comes to the child then he pays a fine. IF the child dies, in otherwords, "Yet if mishap comes" then... LIFE FOR LIFE. He is put to death.

yaw-tsaw'
A primitive root; to go (causatively bring) out, in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively, direct and proximate: -    X after, appear, X assuredly, bear out, X begotten, break out, bring forth (out, up), carry out, come (abroad, out, thereat, without), + be condemned, depart (-ing, -ure), draw forth, in the end, escape, exact, fail, fall (out), fetch forth (out), get away (forth, hence, out), (able to, cause to, let) go abroad (forth, on, out), going out, grow, have forth (out), issue out, lay (lie) out, lead out, pluck out, proceed, pull out, put away, be risen, X scarce, send with commandment, shoot forth, spread, spring out, stand out, X still, X surely, take forth (out), at any time, X to [and fro], utter.

Total KJV occurrences: 1068

This seems like strong argument in favor of a pregnant woman child being considered life, after all, the next verse says LIFE (unborn child) for LIFE (man who struck the woman).

Anyway, I'm open minded on this subject but thought I would chime in.
In Christ,
Alex

I think you slipped your own interpretation in there.  In your next to last paragraph you state, "...LIFE (unborn child) for LIFE."  Where does the Scripture say that?  That an unborn child is LIFE?

If a pregnant woman is hit, and she miscarries, then the child is either stillborn or born alive.  A stillborn child is not alive.  A stillborn child does not breathe, does not move, does not eat---it is dead.

The Scripture says monetary damages are to be paid.  Only if the child is born alive, breathing, then dies or if the mother subsequently dies, does the Scripture say Life for Life.

We must be careful with Scriptures and not read are own interpretations into them.

The fundamental question is when does human life begin, when does a man become a living soul---at conception or at birth (usually about nine months later).

In Genesis, Adam became a living soul when the breathe of life was breathed into him by God.  Breathe in the nostrils and lungs.

In Ezekiel, the chapter on the valley of dry bones.  For a large number of people, God made all the bones come together, sinews and muscles came upon the bones, and the bodies were covered in flesh.  But the bodies did not come alive until God caused the wind, breathe to enter their bodies, and then the bodies became alive.

I don't see in the Scriptures where a man is a living soul unless he breathes the breathe of life.  When you stop breathing, then you are a dead soul.

Also, Jesus told Nicodemus that we must be born again to live.  What is of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is Spirit.  Either way, you must be born to live.  Jesus was not referring to conception but to actual birth.  We know Jesus was talking about birth because He said those born of the Spirit would be like the wind.  Even though the Elect have God's Spirit in them (conception), they are not born of the Spirit until the Resurrection from the dead, when they will be like the wind.  Life begins at birth, both physical and spiritual.

Hi John,

Yes, I was interpreting a bit. I was coming from the perspective that "life" for "life" could only be true if that unborn child was considered a life to begin with. What I was seeing was that if the child perishes due to the physical action taken against the pregnant woman, then the man will be put to death for it. Otherwise, how can you say, "life for life?"

However, I concede that your interpretation makes more sense and considers the "sum of thy word." I feel that you have the right of it. My interpretation was off and included no other witnesses.

Thanks for the wisdom.

God bless,
Alex