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[virginiabm]

Hi Gina and Alex, I really appreciate the feed back on my thoughts about Jesus and Mary. I can let my mind rest a litttle now, because as you both pointed out, Jesus would  never show disrepect to His Mother in any way, which I didn't think He did. Alex you made a good point by saying that Jesus treated Mary the same as others, because we are all the same to Him.
    The reason I spoke of Mary as Just a disciple, is because that is what I consider myself to be while I'm on my way to being an elect of God, that is if I am one of the Few, which I hope I will be. My thoughts on this was just thoughts, whatever Jesus called His Mother was said Out of Love and respect.
     I thank you both for your insight and encouragment. I will go on seeking and sharing my Love for Jesus.
   I love you all my BT family.

          With Love, Virginia Miller

[Kat]

I knew this would lead to a conversation!
 Psalms 51:5 " Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me."  Part of my quandary is this- a baby is still sinful and he has done nothing willfully wrong. Surely Christ died for him too. He will be held accountable too. I don't get the how. But that is correct, right? But Jesus is different because he was not 'conceived in sin. My head hurts with this.  Didn't Ray say that a baby would not be in the elect, because they had not learned or obeyed or had the wisdom of the elect? Something like that.
 So,  Kat, you're saying that since death is brought to us by Adam, sin was introduced because God made us sinful, so what Jesus' mortal body 'inherited" was that he lived in a body and became a man.
 I can wrap my head around that.

Hi octoberose, I don't think I would consider a newborn babe sinful... it's just learning how to think and it's cries are because it needs something, not out of disobedience. And there are severely mentally handicapped people who really are unable to comprehend right from wrong, I don't think they are capable of sin either.  Certainly Christ died for all sins, and accountability will not be neglected of anybody, but for all those babies and the mentally ill, His sacrifice will apply as they need it and they will in the next age. So then it is because He was the firstfruit in resurrection, so now they too can be given a new life in the age to come.

1Co 15:12  Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
v. 13  But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
v. 14  And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
v. 15  Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise.
v. 16  For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
v. 17  And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
v. 18  Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
v. 19  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
v. 20  But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Here Paul is trying to explain that there will indeed be a resurrection from the dead... some just found this teaching very hard to believe. But what Paul is saying is we have assurance of that, because Christ was raised up as a proof and guarantee of it.

So if babies and the mentally ill actually do not need His sacrifice yet, they certainly need His resurrection. Christ was the firstfruit to be resurrected and everybody else will eventually be raised "in his own order" (1Co 15:23), because we know God can and did resurrect Him and will raise us too as He said He would.

Little babies will be brought back to life and raised up in a peaceful world and taught righteousness and the mentally ill will be healed and given a new life in the age to come. I believe this because God is merciful and His judgments will be perfect.

Deu 32:4  He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

Psa 89:14  Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face.

Isa 16:5  In mercy the throne will be established; And One will sit on it in truth, in the tabernacle of David, Judging and seeking justice and hastening righteousness."

Psa 116:5  Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; Yes, our God is merciful.

Rev 16:7  And I heard another from the altar saying, "Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments."

Isa 26:9  With my soul I have desired You in the night, Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early; For when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Gina]

I knew this would lead to a conversation!
 Psalms 51:5 " Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me."  Part of my quandary is this- a baby is still sinful and he has done nothing willfully wrong. Surely Christ died for him too. He will be held accountable too. I don't get the how. But that is correct, right? But Jesus is different because he was not 'conceived in sin. My head hurts with this.  Didn't Ray say that a baby would not be in the elect, because they had not learned or obeyed or had the wisdom of the elect? Something like that.
 So,  Kat, you're saying that since death is brought to us by Adam, sin was introduced because God made us sinful, so what Jesus' mortal body 'inherited" was that he lived in a body and became a man.
 I can wrap my head around that.
  In reference to Virginia's comment - as I understand it, calling a woman Gune' - the greek for woman- could be a sign of respect or just how a woman was addressed. Kind of depended on the context. But Jesus did do as his mother wanted when he turned the water into wine even though it was not 'his plan'.  So, that was respectful. And then Jesus 'gave' Mary to John as a mother , gave John to Mary as a son. So some of his last breaths were in caring for  her.
 Gina, I love your passion. I love, love the story of Jesus as a 12 year old and his parents frantically searching for him and he's 'doing his Father's business". What I believe God led me to about that was that Mary and Joseph were so shocked by his answer because They Had Never Told Him Who He Was. How do you mention that to a child that his true father is the Creator of the Universe? They had not told him, But The Holy Spirit did. I'm always amused by people who think that Mary forgot who Jesus was and didn't understand what he was saying. I am the mother of three regular kids and I can tell you the when and where and how I had them. Mary cherished all these things in her heart and didn't forget a thing. She had just never told Jesus who He was. I'm sure she knew God would in His time.

Hi Octoberose,

That blue part I put there was from one of Ray's papers.  I didn't write that myself.  They were amazed because of where they found him -- in the temple.  They did not understand this statement:   "Did you not know that I must be about my Father's business?"

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was with depravity when I was travailed in birth, And in sin when my mother conceived me." (Concordant Literal Version)

That's probably not the best rendering of that verse.  Babies are conceived and born INTO the world AROUND them which is filled with sin and depravity.  It doesn't mean that the baby itself is filled with sin or depravity at the time of conception and birth.  Doesn't even mean that the mother (or father) were sinning during the baby's conception, necessarily.  It just means sin was already in the world OUTSIDE, ready and waiting so to speak, that the baby would be subject to and fall prey to.

[Joel]

Deuteronomy 1:39 provides a good clue as to babies and young children.

39- Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Joel

[Gina]

Good verse.  I was also thinking about this verse:

Romans 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity (frustration/futility/sin/depravity), not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay (death) and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

[Gina]

Hi Gina and Alex, I really appreciate the feed back on my thoughts about Jesus and Mary. I can let my mind rest a litttle now, because as you both pointed out, Jesus would  never show disrepect to His Mother in any way, which I didn't think He did. Alex you made a good point by saying that Jesus treated Mary the same as others, because we are all the same to Him.
    The reason I spoke of Mary as Just a disciple, is because that is what I consider myself to be while I'm on my way to being an elect of God, that is if I am one of the Few, which I hope I will be. My thoughts on this was just thoughts, whatever Jesus called His Mother was said Out of Love and respect.
     I thank you both for your insight and encouragment. I will go on seeking and sharing my Love for Jesus.
   I love you all my BT family.

          With Love, Virginia Miller

And I like thinking about your questions and searching for the answers.  I am always thrilled when I am blessed when God shows me the answers or slowly reveals them to me over time.  I love this stuff.  I get so wrapped up in these threads sometimes I could go all day without eating or drinking or even thinking about it.  I could stay up all night too and never get bored.  I literally have to drag myself away from the forum sometimes otherwise I wouldn't get anything else done.  I totally see how Ray could get into responding to emails and go all day without a bite to eat.  And what Jesus meant when He said to his disciples when they said, You have to eat something, Master...  "I have food to eat that you know nothing about."  I mean this is good stuff!  So please, keep your questions coming, Virginia, everybody.

[octoberose]

The Deuteronomy verse is lovely, Joel.
 I know you all are right. I know God made us spiritually weak and he tempts no one. But the responsibility of the state we find ourselves in is His. He doesn't tempt but made Satan to be the tempter, to be the liar. So, I guess I'm laying that all on Him. I know this life is about the experience of good and evil and it's how God chose to teach us. And the cost to Him and to us is high.
 The question of 'original sin' is not one I've read a lot about so I was battling with it. I was raised Baptist so old things come back once in a while. 
 So, going along  a little more with the original intent of this thread-  when Jesus became a man was he changed from what he was to who he is now? Stephen saw him as he lay dying. I don't understand that to be a vision but a sighting- and he was Jesus- changed as we know after the resurrection but still Jesus. Will he have scars on his hands and feet when we see him? Is he unalterably changed after dying for our sins and raising from the dead? 
 I know these seem simple, or maybe very complex, but it's where I am and you all know me well enough to know that I'd rather ask and seem foolish than not ask at all.

[virginiabm]

Me too Gina. I am so hungry for the word that I could sit here all day talking to like  minded people, but there are none around here. I love when I come to the forum and some are have a conversation about what we are learning, or learning something new.
   I do have another question about the New Testament being written in Greek. Did Jesus speak mostly Greek? I know He knew all languages, and understood all, but I was going to a sacred name church at one time and they convinced me that Yahshua was Jesus' real name. My husband wasn't into the name at that time, but he is now and I am not. I don't want to get to heavy in this and I know Ray has went through this at one time, i just want to share with my husband what i am learning about it. He thinks we are still in the old testament, so Jesus would be called yahshua or Yahweh, because joshua took the people to the promised land after Moses' died. Joshua in hebrew is Yahshua, But didn't Christ come in Moses' place, not Joshua's?

     with Love, virignia

[Gina]

So, going along  a little more with the original intent of this thread-  when Jesus became a man was he changed from what he was to who he is now? Stephen saw him as he lay dying. I don't understand that to be a vision but a sighting- and he was Jesus- changed as we know after the resurrection but still Jesus. Will he have scars on his hands and feet when we see him? Is he unalterably changed after dying for our sins and raising from the dead? 

Wow, these are all really intense questions.  Was Jesus changed from what He was ( meaning ..... ? )  to who He is now (meaning .... ?) 

Jesus hasn't changed at all.  He is God.  Was God.  Always will be God.  He was a Rock at one point.  He was the burning bush at another point.  He was unrecognizable to the women who came looking for him after he was resurrected. 

But does it really matter what form or shape He takes on?  We no longer know Him after the flesh (OUR flesh, not His flesh).  See, we no longer think of Him in terms of what our eyes see. 

Jesus Christ is the Word and we are supposed to live according to the things He spoke. 

If we're still thinking of Him according to the flesh and concerning ourselves with what He looks like physically, I'm going to be totally blunt (not to be mean) to steer you back on the right track:  you are still a babe in Christ. 

What matters is HOW HE LIVED.  We are saved by His Life.  That means, we practice doing those things and thinking like He did. 

It's like I offered you by PM, it's all about practice. 

We can either be practitioners of sin and become real good and proficient in sinning.  Or, we can practice living Godly in Christ in order that we "become perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. 

See?  So let's start practicing with little baby steps on doing what Christ said.  Because when we do that, then we will SEE Him as He IS.  Guaranteed. 

Does that make sense?  You will see Him when you practice what He commands. 

The problem we have is, we are physical beings and we have these five senses (taste, smell, sight, hearing and touch-- ha ha, I had to write that out just to be sure -- yeah, they're are five senses, for sure ) that really get in the way of spiritual things.

That which is first is not spiritual, but that which is PHYSICAL.  People think that means:  That which is first is physical, and after that the spiritual and we do away with everything physical.  No, I don't believe so.  I believe we will be so spiritually / heavenly minded that we will be better able to experience physical things in their proper context. Jesus ate fish after He was resurrected.  He had no problem digesting it apparently.  But so of what significance is that?  He had nail holes in his hands?  As a sign for those who doubt.

Before we become spiritually minded in Christ, we are so outward focused on those things we can see with our physical eyes, and naturally wonder what He will look like, INSTEAD OF PRACTICING WHAT HE SAYS.  We can't help it though, but we should start PRACTICING not being so outwardly focused so much.  Just practice with little baby steps.

It's amazing how far and fast you get when your mind is preoccupied with spiritual matters.  The only way I can describe it is, it's like when you're driving in your car and you get to your destination but don't remember how you got there or remember seeing any of the physical landmarks along the way. 

And you've been there, I'm sure you know because all of us here for the most part are practicing walking according to the spirit, aren't we?

Just keep doing that and you'll see Jesus as He is.  Ray said so.  He said, when you start doing what Christ commands and living how He lived, you'll understand (perceive/see) a LOT.

All that Jesus Christ is isn't a "body," so stop thinking of Him in those terms.  Think of Christ more in terms of energy/life-giving spirit that sets us in motion when we meditate and PRACTICE His words.    In that way, we really do live, and move and we have our being in Him.

I hope that was of some help to someone besides myself -- it wouldn't be any fun if it were only for me.

Thanks for asking those questions.  I really hope that helps some.

God bless!

[Gina]

And Octoberose, this is a prime example of your walking according to the spirit and not after the flesh:  http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,16110.msg144866.html#msg144866

How so?  It's plain to see.  You had BOLDNESS in Christ in speaking the truth in the midst of an evil and PERVERSE generation.

[Gina]

And I had another thought:  After Jesus was resurrected, He told Mary Magdelene "Stop clinging to me for I have not yet ascended to my Father." 

And as long as she did that, He couldn't go away and if He couldn't go away, the Holy Spirit (Comforter) couldn't come.  So maybe we are sort of doing the same thing in a sense.  By continuing to cling to the "physical body of Christ" with what we know of our five senses, do we somehow shortchange ourselves of the Comforter?  I don't know, maybe.  I mean, I still believe Christ is coming back for us.  But until then, apparently we have to go through a major growth period where our spiritual senses are exercised and sharpened so that we learn to trust God in faith, rather than by what we can see.  I'm sure we have a lot to learn.  But we'll get there.  God will get us there.

What I noticed about Ray was that he really, I mean REALLY believed God.  Obviously, God got him to that place of belief, and trust, and I believe God will get us there too.  He always said, "There it is!  Now why don't they believe it?"

Notice what he didn't say.  He didn't say, Now, there it is!  Why won't they UNDERSTAND it? 

Abraham understood God and it was credited to him as righteousness?  No, he *believed* God and it was credited to him as righteousness.  I guess belief comes before understanding.  Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding...  which doesn't mean you'll never,ever  understand.  It just means you won't understand according to YOUR own understanding.    For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face, now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

And that's a rap.   I'm tired but I still have to literally drag myself to bed because otherwise, I would be here all night writing, But I have faith that the forum will still be here in the moanin'. 

[Extol]

Me too Gina. I am so hungry for the word that I could sit here all day talking to like  minded people, but there are none around here. I love when I come to the forum and some are have a conversation about what we are learning, or learning something new.
   I do have another question about the New Testament being written in Greek. Did Jesus speak mostly Greek? I know He knew all languages, and understood all, but I was going to a sacred name church at one time and they convinced me that Yahshua was Jesus' real name. My husband wasn't into the name at that time, but he is now and I am not. I don't want to get to heavy in this and I know Ray has went through this at one time, i just want to share with my husband what i am learning about it. He thinks we are still in the old testament, so Jesus would be called yahshua or Yahweh, because joshua took the people to the promised land after Moses' died. Joshua in hebrew is Yahshua, But didn't Christ come in Moses' place, not Joshua's?

     with Love, virignia

Hi Virginia,

Greek and Latin were the common languages of the Mediterranean world, but Aramaic was the everyday language of Judea, the Roman province where Jesus lived.

[virginiabm]

Thank you Extol. Is Aramaic close to the Hebrew lauguage? I know there were other people call Jesus, so the human name doesn't matter, but HIS character does, and we have to have HIS character before we can enter into the Kingdom Of God. Jesus's name is above all other names, which I believe that is HIS character, HIS way of life, HIM only doing what HIS Father tells HIM to do and say.
   What name would they have used to address Jesus in the Aramaic language? This question is only for me to understand language use, because as I said name means character and character means a way of living your life in a good or bad way. As we know Jesus Lived THE FATHERS character and HE alone is only GOOD.
 I have been coming to this forum for over five years and I haven't posted but a few times, I must be getting BOLD in my old age. lol

       with love, virginia

[lilitalienboi16]

Thank you Extol. Is Aramaic close to the Hebrew lauguage? I know there were other people call Jesus, so the human name doesn't matter, but HIS character does, and we have to have HIS character before we can enter into the Kingdom Of God. Jesus's name is above all other names, which I believe that is HIS character, HIS way of life, HIM only doing what HIS Father tells HIM to do and say.
   What name would they have used to address Jesus in the Aramaic language? This question is only for me to understand language use, because as I said name means character and character means a way of living your life in a good or bad way. As we know Jesus Lived THE FATHERS character and HE alone is only GOOD.
 I have been coming to this forum for over five years and I haven't posted but a few times, I must be getting BOLD in my old age. lol

       with love, virginia

They used the name Jesus. That is the name they used. Jesus is the name of the Father and Jesus is the name of the Son.

Read this article ray wrote below as it addresses your question.

--------------------------------------------- http://bible-truths.com/enigmaOfGod.htm



The English Name Jesus is an excellent transliteration of the Hebrew name Yeshua which means YAH is SALVATION By: Richard Rives, http://www.toolong.com/pages/events.htm Author of: "TOO LONG IN THE SUN"

Transliterating a name from one language to another is NOT changing the name. It is the SAME name, but spelled and pronounced to suit the language into which it is being translated. Now how hard is that? Yet wanna-be scholars would have us think that this is utter corruption, fabrication, counterfeiting, and blasphemous. Their criticism of transliteration is unfounded. If that were true, then it would be counterfeiting and corruption to translate anything into ANY language. Here is how simple this is: The English spelling of Yeshua is "Joshua." However, when translated from Hebrew into the Greek language, the name Yeshua becomes Iēsous, and the English spelling for Iēsous is "Jesus."

If names were only translated from one language to another, it would even be offensive in some cases, silly or awkward in others. For example the name Natalie means "born on Christmas day." So suppose translating that name from one language to another we translated the meaning of the word, rather than the sound of the name. A mother might then say: "This is my daughter Born on Christmas Day." Someone would probably remark: 'Oh how nice, your daughter was born on Christmas day." The mother would have to respond: "No, she was born on September 23, her Name is "born on Christmas day"-that is her NAME."

Pretty silly. Natalie is a beautiful name and in translating it from one language to another we would want to transliterate it and retain if possible its beautiful sound.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JESUS! Thats it. Its Jesus. The way you hear it now in your ears is as close to how you would have heard it in Aremaic, greek, hebrew, whatever, as possible! That is the name of God!

God bless,
Alex

[Kat]

So, going along  a little more with the original intent of this thread-  when Jesus became a man was he changed from what he was to who he is now? Stephen saw him as he lay dying. I don't understand that to be a vision but a sighting- and he was Jesus- changed as we know after the resurrection but still Jesus. Will he have scars on his hands and feet when we see him? Is he unalterably changed after dying for our sins and raising from the dead? 
 I know these seem simple, or maybe very complex, but it's where I am and you all know me well enough to know that I'd rather ask and seem foolish than not ask at all.

Hi octoberose,

I believe that the Son has always had the form of a man... that was a purpose for Him, to have an image of a man (like us), right from when the Father brought Him forth. This is how Ezekiel described the image of the OT God that he saw out of a whirlwind.

Eze 1:26  And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
v. 27  Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around.
v. 28  Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.

In His glory the Son appears so magnificent that it's hard to comprehend, though in the form of a man. Yes the Son created all of the universe and was there to witnessed the transformation of the earth and all it's creatures from the very beginning... But that was always from His glorious state of being on high.

We know that He appeared to Abraham in a fleshly form, as a man and ate with him (Gen 18), so He had known something of the flesh. But when the Son was born into this world He had to experience all of this life from being a helpless babe to the suffering of crucifixion. The comprehension that He received from that experience would have given Him much better understanding of what we go through and must have been needed for Him to become "perfected"... not that He was not already perfect, but the experience gave Him something more, completed Him.

Luke 13:32  And He said to them, "Go, tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.'

Perfected G5048
teleioō - to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.

Heb 4:14  Therefore, since we have a great High Priest who has gone to heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us live our lives consistent with our confession of faith.
v. 15  For we do not have a High Priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses. Instead, we have One who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet He never sinned. (ISV)

The crucifixion was no easy pill to swallow, not even for Christ, by it was part of His learning experience and obedience even to the death.

Heb 5:7  who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,
v. 8  though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
v. 9  And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

After Christ was resurrected He appeared in the flesh to 'many' of His own followers for 40 days as a witness of His resurrection and they recognized Him and knew it was Him and yes He still had the marks of the crucifixion on His body. But He had obviously regained His glory, because He appeared to some in a different form, a different look for His purpose needed.

Mar 16:12  After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country.

Remember even as the OT God He could come into the flesh and appear as a man, so when He regained His power after resurrection, He could again appear any way He chose to. So He stayed with them long enough to absolutely verify that He had indeed risen from the dead and saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth" (Mat 28:18). Then He ascended back to the heavenly throne and there I believe He took on the majestic appearance that Ezekiel saw... that must have been what Stephen saw just before he died. Stephen was brought before the council and in a long speech fiercely accused the high priest and all the Jews and they became enraged and attacked and killed him. I would think Christ appeared to him in His glory to strength this righteous man 'that He personally knew' in the last mins of his life.

Acts 7:54  When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth.
v. 55  But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,
v. 56  and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"
v. 57  Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord;
v. 58  and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.
v. 59  And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
v. 60  Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Hope this is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi virginia, I don't think it's so much about the word we use to address Him, that's just a physical means we use in oral language. He looks much more to our enter desire of regeneracy, respect and obedience that we have for Him, because He certainly knows what we think of Him in our heart.

[lilitalienboi16]

Here is another Description of Jesus in the OT:

Daniel 7:9-14
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Interestingly I think the wheels of the throne are the cherubim?

Ezekiel 10: 1-2
1 Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.
2 And he spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in between the wheels, even under the cherub, and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter them over the city. And he went in in my sight.

Isaiah also saw Jesus in His glory on the throne and John re-affirms this. Exactly as Kat was saying.

Isaiah 6: 1-5
1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

John 12:40-41
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw Jesus' glory, and spake of him.

God bless,
Alex

[virginiabm]

Amen to that Kat. That is how I feel also.

That you Alex for the info. I really appreciate it. I needed that very much.

      with love, virginia